Category talk:Protests

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to: navigation, search

Move proposal to "Demonstrations and protests"[edit]

While I agree with the idea that these two overlap too much to have a clear distinction, I don't think a "X and Y" category is that useful. It is long, cumbersome, and thus doesn't add value. What I think is we should do is redirect all "demonstrations" categories to the corresponding "protest" categories, i.e. explain that for commons purposes, we only use one. Ingolfson (talk) 00:30, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I've no objections to that. — Cheers, JackLee talk 06:38, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose A demonstration is not the same as a protest. Most demonstrations are a protest, many protests are not demonstrations. --Foroa (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, how do you define the difference between the two? I have no objections to maintaining separate categories if there is some clear way of distinguishing between them. But at the moment they seem to me to overlap. The OED defines a demonstration as "A public manifestation, by a number of persons, of interest in some public question, or sympathy with some political or other cause; usually taking the form of a procession and mass-meeting", and a protest as "The expression of social, political, or cultural dissent from a policy or course of action, typically by means of a public demonstration; (also) an instance of this, a protest march, a public demonstration". In other words, the terms are so close in meaning that I don't think it is worth trying to maintain separate categories. — Cheers, JackLee talk 15:33, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
As stated and by your descriptions: protests are a subset of demonstrations. Moreover, protests don't necessarily (typically, but not always) take the form of a demonstration. So demonstration is probably the widest (and most used - 500 +) name. In addition, demonstration against = protest. --Foroa (talk) 15:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think that conclusion is clear from the OED definitions. For instance, the OED defines protest as "a public demonstration". This suggests the two terms are equivalent, not that protests are a subset of demonstrations. I'm still not clear how you distinguish protests from demonstrations – can you explain further? — Cheers, JackLee talk 18:09, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

A demonstration (= "protest march") is a form of protest. It makes as much sense to call the category "demonstrations and protests" as to have a category "Brie and cheese". (For example, a hunger strike is a form of protest which is not a demonstration.) en.wp has en:Category:Protests by type; I think adopting that here would help. Also worth noting that on en.wp there is no Category:Demonstrations, only Category:Protest marches; here, we have both, though the meaning is the same. "Protest marches" is probably preferable as a name because it's clearer; "demonstrations" may be things like demonstrations of scientific experiments, for instance. Rd232 (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

  • So where's the place for demonstrations that are not protests? Demonstrations arranged by Stalin, Castro, Saddam & Co. - not a trace of protest. NVO (talk) 20:59, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Right, only part of the items in Category:demonstrations - Special:Categories/Demonstrations and its 450 or so subcats are protests, you can have pro-life, pro-environment, pro-education, pro-healthcare, pro- ... movements too. So, demonstrations is no ideal, but better (and wider) than protest marches. --Foroa (talk) 21:14, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
    • I would suggest calling non-protest demonstrations "marches" (cf en:Category:Marches), and protest demonstrations "protest marches", and getting rid of "demonstrations". Rd232 (talk) 22:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
    • If a demonstration is no protest simply don't put it in Category:Protests. Whoever replaces the categories should be careful, but that's normal, or isn't it? –Be..anyone (talk) 02:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
    • From the Wikipedia definitions, "A demonstration or street protest is action by a mass group or collection of groups of people in favor of a political or other cause; it normally consists of walking in a mass march formation and either beginning with or meeting at a designated endpoint, or rally, to hear speakers." or "A protest is an expression of objection, by words or by actions, to particular events, policies or situations. Protests can take many different forms, from individual statements to mass demonstrations." Demonstrations seem to encompass and include protests. As the definition suggests, protests can be an expression of objection that can range from individual to mass demonstration by many people. I think if only one category is to be used that Demonstrations would be the more useful and would include protests. Warfieldian (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Given what you've just quoted, I can't see how you reach your conclusion. "Protests can take many different forms, from individual statements to mass demonstrations." means demonstrations are a specific form of protest. Rd232 (talk) 01:08, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a lot of overlap. Now that I read it again, I think you are correct. Demonstrations always appear to involve mass or collection of people. Protests can range from an individual to large group of people. So, Protests would appear to be the more general term since it can encompass an individual or a large mass of people. I've never really thought about the distinction before. Warfieldian (talk) 02:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
If A are demonstrations and B are protests, A−B are demonstrations that do not protest against something, B−A are protests which do not take the form of a demonstration, and A∩B are protests which do take the form of a demonstration.
Neither term is more general. Instead, they are partially intersecting sets. A demonstration is a public expression of opinion, which may be in support or in opposition of something. For example, a support rally for a ruling political party could be a demonstration without being a protest. A protest is an expression of opposition, which may or may not take the form of a demonstration. For example, a boycott is a protest but not a demonstration. LX (talk, contribs) 09:29, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Agree. Protests, anti-xxx and pro-xxx actions are concerning the subject, what one wants to obtain. Demonstrations/manifestations/marches/boycotts/burnings are defining how you are trying to achieve it. --Foroa (talk) 09:48, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
This isn't an exercise in linguistics, it's an exercise in categorisation. By some definitions, yes, a demonstration is merely a march intended to be a mass expression of opinion. But another definition is that a demonstration is a march intended to be a protest against something (can be true even of government-organised marches; "protest" does not mean "protest against the government"), making "demonstration" a type of protest. Put another way, a demonstration is a march demanding some kind of action by non-participants of the march; this distinguishes a demonstration from a carnival, for instance. This can always be construed as a protest against prior inaction, at least. Non-protest marches can be classified as merely "marches", and that's what I'd call government marches merely aimed at showing "look how many people we can get on the street waving our banners". This definition gives us a workable category tree, which is probably why en.wp adopted it. If we use LX's definition, what do we do with the category tree? Rd232 (talk) 11:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Since categories have names in English, the definitions of the words matter, and I think we need to agree on what kind of things there are and how they relate to each other before we can design a workable category tree. Many demonstrations are protests, and therefore, the words are often used interchangeably, but it doesn't mean that they are always interchangeable. The notion that a demonstration is always characterised by protest is simply not true. Marches is a third concept with a similar relationship to the other two. Many protests and demonstrations are stationary and do not involve a march. LX (talk, contribs) 12:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Going with the OED definitions, I think part of the confusion is caused by the fact that protest means (1) an "expression of... dissent from a policy or course of action, typically by means of a public demonstration"; as well as (2) "a protest march, a public demonstration" (emphasis added). In other words, sense 2 of protest is the same as demonstration. I accept that protest is potentially wider in meaning than demonstration, since it might encompass types of protest apart from street demonstrations (perhaps chaining oneself to trees?). For that reason, perhaps "Category:Demonstrations" should be a subcategory of "Category:Protests". We can then advise editors to use "Category:Demonstrations" for files relating to street demonstrations/protests. Thoughts? — Cheers, JackLee talk 12:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree. --Foroa (talk) 08:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Symbol support vote.svg Support I just wanted to add my support for the move. While the pedant in me screams that they are separate entities which overlap, i think that for most of the people who are searching for the information it would be best if they were linked. Beta M (talk) 20:13, 28 October 2011 (UTC)