Category talk:Rosh HaAyin

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Fixing the title: Rosh Ha'Ayin[edit]

Hey there, we employ a little sign ( ' ) before vowels that function in fact as consonant-vowels thus phonetically "breaking" from the preceding letter and create a new syllable stressing the presence of the consonant-prone A, as is assimilated, among others, in the Danish and German languages. Here it's about the "latinization" of names from a rather non-Latin alphabetic system, which generally reqires the use of the "break–syllable" apostrophe practiced when writing English in all such cases, examples Beit Ha'arava, Giv'atayim, Ye'elimite, Bir'em.. So we're moving also this cat to Rosh Ha'Ayin, any objections or corrections? Orrlingtalk 14:36, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

אין התנגדות אבל זה מפריע שכל הקבצים והקטגוריות זזות כל הזמן. בבקשה לעשות את זה מסודר Ori (talk) 16:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
What the fuck? Orrlingtalk 17:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Google translation: “No objection but it does bother all files and categories move all the time. Please make it neat” --MB-one (talk) 17:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the translation. Orrling lives in Israel and speaks Hebrew. So she needs to explain further what she was asking about. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm not supposed to be reading comments written in languages that most editors on WikiCommons can't understand. WikiCommons summons in one place people from Poland, Canada, Egypt and South America and we write in English so that no one needs Google translation. The fact that it's my language doesn't entitle me to maintain discussions in public pages in Hebrew, and doing so is a very rude comportment, that I can not allow. Thank you from me too, User:MB-one Orrlingtalk 22:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Comment. Orrling was blocked (unjustified in my opinion) before the disagreement below by Hanay was posted. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:00, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Symbol delete vote.svg Disagree, This is a minor change, all the Categories name changes cause a lot of problem in he:wiki and others too, the link to commons will be break because of the change, and we have to fix it manually. Name changes should be done only in cases that it is realy the wrong name, and this is not the case. We found a lot of broken links. Commons should serve wikipedia, not the opposite. Hanay (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Commons serves the greater interest of using correct spelling in English. This may be problematic for the various Wikipedias, but allowing spelling errors in Commons category names is a bad idea. The Commons is an international repository for various media, and people look to it for correct English spelling. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
People use Commons for pictures not for correct English spelling. Hanay (talk) 22:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
It is harder to find what you are looking for if it is spelled incorrectly. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

(unindent). The correct English spelling as far as I can tell is Rosh Ha'Ayin. See these English-language articles from 2 well-known publications that cover Israel:

I ask again, I don't mind the new name with the apostrophy, but please do it after it has been agreed for Ori (talk) 19:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
In addition, what's this category: Category:Rosh-Ha-Ayin industrial area‎? Why is it different from the rest? Ori (talk) 20:01, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
The introduction says "The Rosh-Ha-Ayin industrial area is located in the western side of the town. It contains various factories. Among them: pipes products, aluminium products." So if it is the same town and we are in agreement, then we should change it to Category:Rosh Ha'ayin industrial area‎. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:03, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
You shoul look here. THis is the city web site and they spell Rosh HaAyin. Hanay (talk) 21:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
See Maplandia: Rosh Ha`Ayin Map. Israel Google Satellite Maps. From Maplandia home page: "Maplandia.com provides the searchable world gazetteer based on Google Maps, the most comprehensive online satellite imagery ever available." --Timeshifter (talk) 21:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
This is the name of the city and it should be written in the way that the city write the name, not how google decide to write. Hanay (talk) 22:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
I wouldn't count on Rosh Ha'Ayin's municipality to write the name correctly. Just look at the poorly spelled signs along Israel's roads. The English transcription of Hebrew names must be guarded very carefully. That's one of the ways to preserve the correct Hebrew pronunciation. Liadmalone (talk) 22:50, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
At Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/User problems#User:Foroa AnonMoos writes: "Re: The English spelling -- Neither one is really correct or incorrect; it just depends on which transcription conventions you choose to use. The apostrophe is used to reflect the Hebrew written ע, which some Israelis feel should be pronounced (in the older language it was a pharyngeal consonant), but which is not in fact pronounced by the great majority of Israelis in most contexts".
In English many things are not pronounced anymore, but we still keep the spelling. I thought major media organizations such as Ynet and Haaretz tended to be regarded as authoritative as concerns spelling. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:50, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Personally, I have no real preference. As we have no clear reference, and looking at the various interwiki's and the various spellings in the subcategories and images, the current spelling seems to be dominant. What I care about is naming coherency in the various subcategories and that the procedure for such sensitive renamings is followed. I don't plan to spend my life discussing on that, so I take the position that if it so terribly wrong, it will be changed on other wikipedias where they have plenty of people to discuss such issues. After all, Commons is a server for wikipedias, not the other way round. --Foroa (talk) 07:32, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

As Foroa said: Commons is a server for wikipedias, not the other way round. Do not forget it. Who is going to search with apostrophe? how many people know the difference between the Hebrew letters ע and א? They pronounce it in the same way. This change is not helping. Hanay (talk) 09:57, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Search engines ignore punctuation. It is not a problem. We are talking about what is the accepted English spelling, not the Hebrew spelling. Accepted English spelling for cities is oftentimes at variance with the pronunciation of the city in its national language.
As a longtime editor of English Wikipedia with over 25,000 edits on English Wikipedia I can say that misspellings on English Wikipedia can oftentimes take a long time to be corrected. People on the Commons are oftentimes much more quick to correct spellings. Foroa is not a native speaker of English and could not possibly understand English or English Wikipedia as much as I do. Foroa is incorrect in saying that "it will be changed on other wikipedias where they have plenty of people to discuss such issues". That is oftentimes not true.
And you are correct that Commons is a server for wikipedias. That is why it is important to use the correct English spelling since that is the language used predominantly on the Commons. With hundreds of languages on other Wikipedias they need to be able to find stuff on the Commons. Both readers and editors are helped by using the correct English spelling. Otherwise they will have more difficulty in finding files and categories. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
I came around. I oppose the change Ori (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Ori, you previously wrote: "I don't mind the new name with the apostrophy". Have you changed your mind, and do you have a reason? Before that you wrote (Google translation): "No objection but it does bother all files and categories move all the time. Please make it neat”. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Hallo Timeshifter. I don't think that Ori changed mind. What I understand is that Ori does not oppose to a spelling Rosh HaAyin or Rosh Ha'Ayin in general. Both have there eligibility. It is only a issue of personal preferences to use an apostrophe or not. My understanding from AnonMoos is that the modern writing is without an apostrophe. Ori may oppose to a change without further benefit. Rosh HaAyin is well introduced to commons and wikipedia and a change to Rosh Ha'Ayin generates only work for underemployed users. Are we underemployed? Do we have to generate more work for others? There is no benefit in a change from Rosh HaAyin to Rosh Ha'Ayin. If you change, do it neat, do it everywhere, but first of all: speak with people who are benefiting from the media in this categories, in this case maybe the hebrew-community and the creators of this categories User:Talmoryair and User:Ori~.--PigeonIP (talk) 09:03, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Another Source for Rosh HaAyin: Central Bureu of Statistics --PigeonIP (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
As I said: "I came around", i.e. I changed my mind. These categories serve mainly, if not only, the Hebrew wikipedia, and as such, I embrace PigeonIP' words Ori (talk) 11:20, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
These categories serve the world more than they serve one Wikipedia, the Hebrew Wikipedia. I don't think you guys realize the reach of the Commons. Hundreds of millions of people worldwide look at files on the Commons whenever they click on an image in a Wikipedia article to go to the image description page which is transcluded from the Commons. So spelling is important in both file names and categories. We don't want people worldwide to pass on incorrect spellings just because they see incorrect spellings on file names and in categories. Here is a recent article:
AnonMoos was discussing pronunciation mainly. Maybe in the past both spellings were used. But 3 of the largest English-language publications covering Israel on a daily basis use Rosh Ha’ayin nowadays. It makes the Commons look ignorant to spell things wrong after one spelling has become standardized, and is considered correct. It is common for misspellings to be corrected on the Commons. It happens all the time. It may take years to be corrected, but misspellings get corrected. It looks like official sites are now using the spelling with the apostrophe:
In the examples given above, there have been three different forms of apostrophes used and two different forms of capitalisation; that makes 6 possible variations. (Rosh Ha’ayin, Rosh Ha`Ayin, Rosh Ha'Ayin, Rosh Ha'ayin) --Foroa (talk) 18:44, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
And please, try to provide less unbiased information. In most of the references sites, except Hareth (I guess), you will find it equally written as "Rosh HaAyin" without apostrophe. --Foroa (talk) 19:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Apostrophes mean the same thing no matter what form is used. That is a typesetting issue. I can't believe that an admin could be so ignorant of this.
The questions about capitalization are a common problem in English. Note that 2 out of 3 of the major media publications do not capitalize the second "a". I do not know which is considered to be more correct (capitalized or not capitalized). --Timeshifter (talk) 19:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Apostrophes mean the same thing no matter what form is used: many people, quite a number of people would disagree with you. But the thing that matters is: you don't know the [most] correct name. There are some possible transcriptions. Rosh HaAyin is one of it and well introduced. Please spare us from a political or personal agenda. --PigeonIP (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
I am afraid you are simplifying too much. The series I mentioned ((Rosh Ha’ayin, Rosh Ha`Ayin, Rosh Ha'Ayin, Rosh Ha'ayin) are a copy paste of the first occurrence of the terms, so they use 3 different characters, only one is complying to "The" definition of an apostrophe. As far as I know, in some countries and their keyboards, the apostrophe is just another character. Anyway, if you would know how many hours we spend on renaming categories with the wrong apostrophes and dash characters, you would probably react differently. Although this seems to improve, probably because tools like HotCat handle that very well. --Foroa (talk) 08:23, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

(unindent). People can disagree with me about many things, but not with the facts concerning the apostrophe in English:

Here are the major English-speaking publications in one list:

The only disagreement in this list is over capitalization.

See en:Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Apostrophes. It says: "Consistent use of the straight (or typewriter) apostrophe ( ' ) is recommended, as opposed to the curly (or typographic) apostrophe ( ’ )." --Timeshifter (talk) 00:32, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Something that must be attended, which to me seems quite fundamental, is I see throughout this discussion colleagues referencing transliterating fashion(s) by web sources. Why I believe this is less needed? Because websites are no authority for transliteration. User:Timeshifter, you must know that public life in Israel is so turmoily and inconsistent that any street and town's name can gain at least two varying latinizations at the same time on public signs, websites and authority papers; Mentioning webpages as a source is an effort that I appreciate but it has so little relevance as to what is right and is thus a poor contest because Hebrew-to-English transcription is yet a wild nomansland reserve, so the sole thing which counts is just what the ACTUAL CORRECT way to spell an Israeli name is, and not what the POPULAR way is, which for ever will be inclined to shortenings. And for this, I'm serving wiki steadily with my being a language knowledgable, and am regularly transcripting across with no hassle, because that's my domain. And indeed, as I've shown above, my "preference" prevail in many of Commons' Isra-categories and, as you've shown in one of your references, they're sustained - and practiced - by scholarly environments and lingistic discourses. The explanation to why we use the apostroph in Category:Bir'em, Giv'a or Rosh Ha'Ayin is specified in the first post in this page. It is irrelevant to "older" or "modern" pronunciations: We just don't say "Reem", we say Re-ém; we don't say "Hair", we say Ha-Ir. This is a very significant difference.. Hebrew cannot introduce diftongs. It doesn't either recognize duplications (ee, aa, oo...). Middle-word syllables beginning with a vowel are thus subject to the forced phonetic "break" as is happening with the German word "geändert" which you pronounce Gay-Endert. This is how also Hebrew is spoken, simply. So when transcripting from Heb, the apostroph is employed to designate that the following vowel is neither diftong, nor a permission to merge the neighbouring letters into one syllable nor any reading like "Afrikaans" which is what you get when spelling Rosh Haayin without a measure of spreading apart the syllables. This is no subject of preference, This is not a matter of aesthetic affinity, this is not optional.
(–....Andddd, if we omit the apostrophe from this category, we'll have to do it across all categories written with the same idea :] And there's many. - So we better stick to aligning upscale not to deteriorating.)
The capitalization is another topic! :-) this, is to mark the very first letter of a word – following "ha", which is the Hebrew "the": Beit HaShita = "House (of) the-Acacia", Rosh Ha'Ayin = "Head (of) the-Spring", "HaGoshrim" = "The-Bridgesettlers". Orrlingtalk 02:04, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


It is not so simple. If we look at the article about "ע" in en.wikipedia we see that it start with "A" - Ayin. It is mentioning also that "Ayin or ʿayin" which means both are o.k (please note that ʿ is befor a). So Hebrew nams that starting with ע have to start with A. Foe example עם עובד is Am Oved and not ʿam Oved. The second ע united with the Holam comming afterward. Or עם הזמן - Im Hazman. Again the ע united with the Hebrew niqqud vowel sign Hiriq ect. . And as explained above the "ha" is the Hebrew "the" and therefore the Rosh HaAyin speling is o.k.

Regarding to the newspapers examples. I have other examples also:

ect.
In fact, the Hebrew "ע" is just the same like "א". It have the same pronounce in the modren Hebrew. The English name of the city is Rosh HaAyin as the city municipal website say. So lets keep it. Geagea (talk) 03:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, as said all categories needing apostroph are gradually being moved to the correct form (to allow a universal rule) so we will not leave this one behind. You can't really have Category:Na'an, Category:Giv'at Chen, and then Category:Rosh HaAyin. I hope you agree that it's not how we need to work, and that there's a (big) logic behind the usage of the apostroph. - The apostroph for Hebrew Latinization doesn't come at the first letter of a word – only before vowels that denote the beginning of a second, or third syllable that is not the first letter in a combination (your examples are therefore quite irrelevant). Please read again the description above. "Ayin" when appearing alone is fine, but when it follows "Ha"- you get a HAAYIN which is not so recommended. When you pronounce the city's name you say actually: Rosh – Ha-A-yin and there you need to separate the twin vowels from one another. Similar happens in Gvar'am: without the little sign, this name would be GVA–RAM, which is very incorrect as it needs to read Gvar–Am (גבר–עם).
א and ע are to English speakers (and to most Israelis) identical, they act as one letter, no difference played; same rules over both. So I'm not talking about particular letters, only about being smart with millions of non-Hebrew readers. Take Ne'urim: of course, you can spell it Neurim if you want. - But then how do you think it will be read by people from Germany, from England, and from Quebec? three different ways. Now, look in the same way at Rosh haayin. Orrlingtalk 04:48, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
Hallo Orrling, I am from Germany and let me assure you I don't read Rosh HaAyin or Rosh Ha'ayin differently. But Germans and Americans are able to speak Berlin and Hamburg in totally different ways. --PigeonIP (talk) 10:12, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Gazetteers[edit]

(unindent). It looks like from the examples given above that mainstream publications that cover Israel daily use both forms: with the apostrophe, and without the apostrophe. So now I have no idea which is considered to be the correct spelling in English. Is there some language authority that rules on such things? I found this:

  • Gazetteers (Place Names). It links to many gazetteers. For example; the GEONET Name Server (GNS) at geonames.nga.mil. Its text search:
  • http://geonames.nga.mil/ggmagaz/ - It comes up with:
  • Tahanat Rosh Ha'Ayin. railroad station.
  • Rosh Ha'Ayin. populated place.
  • Ẕomet Rosh Ha'Ayin. road junction.
  • Mehlaf Rosh Ha'Ayin Mizrah. intersection.

See also geonames.org - its search pulls up:

  • Rosh Ha‘Ayin

--Timeshifter (talk) 07:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

There were many other gazetteers listed. Haven't tried them yet. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

It should be noted that we're not interested about whichever particular Hebrew letter, but solely the spoken articulation is the theme & the cause to the universal usage of either aposatroph or hyphen when transliterating - to settle the stress of a separate syllable. This is vitally done in both presence of ע and א, for ex. Bnei Re'em. No one until now has contested it. Orrlingtalk 15:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)