Category talk:Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to: navigation, search

Non ! Jusqu'à la création d'un état basque description en Euskara devrait suffire !

Categories are tags we use just to find media in Commons. In this category, the first one is in french, so people who doesn't speak basque find every media related to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port / Donibane Garazi easily. I see no problem on it. Jimmy Wales has actively promoted minority languages. Basque is also spoken in the Northern Basque Country (sometimes, more than french). So, why don't we give the basque a chance? --Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

I support the double name. Our issue is not states but placenames and languages. Language diversity is a positive value. It is not fair to defend that there are "first division" languages (they would deserve the titles of the categories) and "second division" ones (they would be limited just to descriptions). Let's be inclusive, let's include both. --Adrar (talk)

Typing and searching the category name with double citie name will be problematic and therefore I prefer Category:Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port (the name which is used in english, dutch etc.) to be maintained with as option a category redirect towards it from Category:Donibane Garazi. Otherwise category corrections will become needed all the time. --Havang(nl) (talk) 12:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Note: in Category:Basque Country the policy of naming is mentioned as follows: "To avoid conflicts between French, Spanish and Basque names, English names will be preferred." --Havang(nl) (talk) 13:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Note:

Here (trivago.co.uk) at the bottom you can read: More hotels in Donibane Garazi (St. Jean Pied de Port).
Here, trivago.com, Attractions Donibane Garazi (St. Jean Pied de Port).
In this direction of bikely.com you can read DONIBANE GARAZI.
Here (tripwiser.com), List of things to do in Donibane Garazi, France.
Here (book written by Alan R. King), Piarres takes Mikel to see both the pretty inland town of Donibane Garazi (St. Jean Pied-de-Port).
So, Donibane Garazi is also used in english texts.--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
I am against the use of double names in the first place. If there has to be chosen, the choice is evident. Being dutch I should equally oppose against similar Category:Lille / Rijsel for Category:Lille (see eu:Lille --Havang(nl) (talk) 18:12, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

We are not talking here about how does eu.wikipedia name the city of Rijsel. We are talking about how to categorize media about the Northern Basque Country on Wikimedia Commons. I think that the bilingual name is a very correct choice, because there are no english names for the cities of the Northern Basque Country. English texts use to take the french ones, that's true, but basque names are also used. I think we can get a correct bilingual solution for both french and basques, don't you think?--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 20:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the names of the localities of Northern Basque Country are in Basque and French languages. What languages are spoken but its inhabitants? Basque and French languages. Hide this reality would be pure hypocrisy and censorship of linguistic and cultural reality of the Basque Country. I think Wikipedia is a source of wisdom, and wisdom within that are the languages, including Basque. A greeting. --Euskalduna 21:37, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

But the Bask country has no other rules in commons than other countries: it's not the language of the country which decides the use at commons category names; cf. for dutch Den Haag: Category:The Hague. And it's not done also to put two names in the category title, not for flemisch french Rijsel Category:Lille and not for Donibane Garazi Category:Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. It's not discriminatory to the Basque language, and no statement regarding the Basque people's independency wishes. "Baskoak orok preziatzen, heuskara ez jakin harren". --Havang(nl) (talk) 21:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

We are not talking here about independency wishes. I understand many people will look for this city in it's french name: that's why I think the french one can be first. Look: When you arrive to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port / Donibane Garazi, this is what you see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/palazio/3369333987/sizes/l/ Goeden avond en tot morgen. --Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 21:25, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that this discussion must not be centered on Donibane Garazi / St Jean Pied de Port, as this is a place where there's not a main english usage, but there could be one. I find very difficult myself to know which are the names of the little towns and villages in which basque is very used. For example I don't know the name of eu:Ligi-Atherei in french (I have to see in the interwiki that the french name is fr:Licq-Athérey.). I also find myself insulting that same names have been changed in order to meet some "french" style. For example the mount eu:Larrun is called in french La Rhune, a very absurd name. I think that basque speakers have the right to find the names of the places as most people there know. Most basque speakers know where eu:Senpere is, but a few would know where fr:Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle is. That's a fact and can't be changed. -Theklan (talk) 21:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
  • (@ User:Unai Fdz. de Betoño): Yes, for places internationally known, we must at commons follow the names they are best known by in english, (The Hague, Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port);
  • (@ Theklan): but for places not really known internationally, the official local name is appropriate. So we have in the Netherlands the municipalities in the province of Friesland, who have two names: dutch and frisian, but each municipality has had the free choice of taking the dutch or the frisian name as official, but they can choose ONLY ONE OFFICIAL NAME. I don't know how things are regulated in the french basque country. In fact, I should like to have the basque and the french name, but not by putting double-language names in the title, which I consider bad practice; but by the use of redirects as I have proposed before. This should permit a local language category tree of redirect categories, and all images should automatically go, thanks to our "bot"s, from the local language category to the english category. I wish that not just for the basque language.... --Havang(nl) (talk) 21:56, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Comparison with Category:Lille / Rijsel doesn`t work; nobody asks to rename for exemple "Dax / Akize", that is a town now not in Basque language territory with an existing placename in Basque (this would be an exemple comparable with Lille), but a Basque speaking place. We should be careful with expressions like "local languages", for most people in the planet both Dutch and Frisian are "local"; what you call "English category" becomes in this case "French language" one. I agree that "redirect" actions are the solution but not necessarily the correct decision is to consider one language "local" and the other "powerful". We have opposite cases: Category:Elx; probably many people in the planet would find better Category:Elche but there isn't any extra technical problem with this, everybody finds the place. This decision is just with languages which have been forbidden for long time; if we go on with the "local" vs. (supposedly) "international" language dynamics we just repeat the power-relationships we have had throughout history, it is nothing specially rich or positive. Comparing with the last example the proposal Category:Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port / Donibane Garazi is even more inclusive for everybody, it proposes to maintain French first; "redirect" actions works in all directions. We have some cases for Basque Country places with bilingual naming, some of them of international level and everybody finds them and there is a lot of files in. The alternative is making "local" languages marginal, once again like always in history. We can do things better in commons in this XXI. century.--Adrar (talk)
The problem is that the only OFFICIAL language in all France is french. Basque is not forbbiden but oppresed. So maybe the official name of a place can be fr:Camou-Cihigue but no one (except maybe the mayor) calls it Camou-Cihigue, but eu:Gamere-Zihiga. That's a fact. I'm sure that if you are lost somewhere near Gamere and you ask where the hell is Camou (pronounced camü) you won't get the right address. -Theklan (talk) 14:57, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Here at commons we are at an international level, and at that level, Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port is the known name for this place. But in the meantime, the discussion has become more general, and may-be should be transferred to the village pump. --Havang(nl) (talk) 16:24, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Havang, nothing to do with the political independence or want to respect a language. You´re mixing deliverabily politics and culture. At international level Pamplone is called Pamplone or Japan is called Japan, but the category are Pamplona and 日本.
In my opinion the summary of this whole discussion if really or not respecting the language and names of locations or hypocritically using false excuses and political arguments for convenience for not respecting the rights that every language of the world has. If not, what better to disappear every language in the world and all humans speak in English, does not it? --User:Euskalduna 14:58, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Concerning the rights of languages: as far as I know, wikipedia respects and supports all languages equally: each language has (may have) its wikipedia. Interwiki links are the way to communicate between languages. And sharing files between wikis is by means of the wikimedia commons, for which the main language is english and in which many attention is given to multilanguage translations of filedescriptions. (In this contexte, it should be highly appreciated if the basque wikipedians contribute to commons maintainance by adding the english translation to the basque descriptions at the infodesc wherever it is lacking). Here at commons, multi-language texts have its place in the file description, not in the title. In conclusion, I remain opposed against double names in the title. The maintainance job in commons is already big, and we best stick to commons general rules. --Havang(nl) (talk) 12:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

You have say: "it should be highly appreciated if the basque wikipedians contribute to commons maintainance by adding the english translation to the basque descriptions at the infodesc wherever it is lacking".
I add: "it should be highly appreciated if the commons administrators contribute to adding the basque translation of english, frencha, spanish titles of basque villages and cities of commons categories". To order something, we must also give up something. Contribution by contribution by both parties make the understanding and Wikipedia/Commons in reality.--User:Euskalduna 01:38, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

There have been many discussions about the "babel" problem in commons; there has been large progress in multi-language translations: once a texte being translated in english, translations in other languages become possible by bot programs; but those have obviously to be restricted to the filedescriptions and are not suited for file names. I stay opposed to double names in the title. --Havang(nl) (talk) 12:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

You can disagree on the double naming. Then I propose the sole naming of this place to Donibane-Garazi, as it's well known there and in other places of the Basque Country. May have a redirection from St-Jean-Pied-de-Port, of course, but the real name is Donibane-Garazi. And in English the most commons name is not Saint-Jead-Pied-de-Port, it's, by far, Donibane-Garazi. You can check for example in the famous basque declaration signed in this place after being proposed in Lizarra (Estella in Spanish). Most english news call it the Lizarra-Garazi accord, not the Estella-Pied-de-Port accord. So I strongly oppose that suppoused anglocentrism that really it's based on the unknown of the real names of the places. If the goal is to use the most commons English name let's call Zimbabwe Rhodesia and we will be more cockney in our definition. -Theklan (talk) 13:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I like the solution of redirects, whatever way the redirects are. Also, I need translations to have access to information about the basque country; and no persons are in a better situation to give both information and translation as the basque wikipedians. Baskoak orok preziatzen, heuskara ez jakin harren (Bernard Etxepare, 1545).--Havang(nl) (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC) PS: What I can do is adding at nl:wikipedia basque names, see [1], but it's a long job.--Havang(nl) (talk) 18:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Your last addings are better than nothing but you may not notice that you continuously subsidiarise one language in favour of the other. Exactly because we are at international level we should support values like ecology (in this case of the languages), equality and diversity; hopefully technique helps nowadays. I think you propose what you assume is neutral but it isn't. You even haven't treated all contributors equally: you have recommended Basque language contributors to describe files also in English (as far as I'm concerned I always do that) but you haven't done the same with French language ones. Do you have any statistics which show that Basque contributors act less multilingual than French language ones? Obviously you don't. Have you noticed that many of the files in this category about Donibane Garazi are French-only? You even haven't recommended anything to the anonymous (is this the best way to collaborate positively?) contributor who started this talk...in French, not English. You should appreciate also the difference between your main reason (the use of supposedly ENGLISH placenames) and the reason shown by some French contributors, "it must be the FRENCH form". So in practice (maybe unconsciously) you are supporting FRENCH placenames and impositive ideas like the one expressed by this anonymous contributor, I hope you understand. "Redirect" can be applied equally to contributors who write the placename in one single language, be it French or Basque, and both leading to the bilingual one. This is fair and equalitarian, this shows same respect for all world cultures. Finally, if you say you like the redirects whatever way they are, I don't know why you support "Category:Saint-Just-Ibarre" and not "Category:Donaixti-Ibarre". Redirects arrange any possible problem but if you continuosly support big cultures you are against a universal value: equality.--Adrar (talk) 19:56 30 January 2010 (UTC)

I think that basque people are much more multilingual than french people, they even posssess a tresor the french have not: the basque language. Same is valid for the dutch language. But translations are needed to put languages on a level of equality. How could I have access to the tresor of basque language, how could I understand "Horrenbertze erraiteco, hic halere ez orano hire etsai ikhusten", if it wasn't translated? In commons, titles are bound to directives; directives I haven't dictated but which are usefull guidelines for me in contributing to commons: multilingual filedescriptions and large use of interwiki's: that's what I promote and that's what permits me to find my way in the big international building wikipedia has become. If I had to start with basque items, I never should come far in wikisearch. But that should not retain me to come in the Basque Country again next summer. --Havang(nl) (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
That's it, if you want we can concentrate the talk at Donibane Garazi. Treating all languages and cultures equally should be encouraged in a worldwide instrument like "commons". I support the bilingual form and there isn't any technical problem. The question of double vs single is not relevant, we have plenty of names of categories much-much more longuer and complicated to write, just one example between thousands: Category:Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-l'Assomption de Lescar. By the way, this name is not in English but in French and by the way again the files are described in: 7 French-only, 3 Occitan-only and 2 Spanish-only. Not a single word in English. Havang, you have a lot of work with people acting monolingual and not using English at all but instead you are investing your time against some inclusive proposals who don't delete the language previously used, but add cultural contents. As you are "fr4" you understand French-only texts but this is your personal situation, it is not a universal value. You haven't invested one single second in this talk to recommend French-only contributors. And there is NOT any technical problem; even more: when you turn a unilingual title to a bilingual one you create the "redirect" action so you assure that everybody will find the way. To finish, I think you should ask Croquant to revert the unilateral change he has done at Category:Anglet_/_Angelu, we may not agree but as far as I know this mister hasn't the power to make such changes while a discussion is open, I would really appreciate your intervention, it might be a good idea that you ask him to revert the change and propose (as you have told me) to concentrate the discussion here.--Adrar (talk) 21:18, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
I have discovered that this discussion applies to more categories, indeed, including Category:Anglet and that we may come back to that one. but Croquant has used another argument; therefore it's better not to do edit war type reverts as long as the discussion is not over yet. I shall put a link on Croquant's talk page towards this discussion. --Havang(nl) (talk) 21:34, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

PS. To give you an impression about the maintainance task: see: Category:Media needing categories, and that is only one type of maintainance....to be done by volonteers; we really need a simple system. But that is not a language argument; and we discuss language here.

Concerning my "unilateral change": it was a revert to the original category name, following a renaming made without any preliminary discussion, and contrary to the de facto general rule for French cities: use of the official name, with absolutely no exception, even for cities in Britanny or Occitania. So, if this rule is disputed, in my opinion the discussion should not be limited to a couple of cities (to date Anglet, Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port and Saint-Just-Ibarre), but should get on the general question of naming French places: shall we use the official name, the English name, or a concatenation of various names? Shall we make an exception to the "shortest possible name" rule for such long names? Croquant (talk) 08:42, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Croquant, of course your change was unilateral. The procedure was followed and respected, there was a period of two weeks for the change proposal, neither you nor any other one intervened; after the change the discussion was reopened and before it was closed you decided to act unilaterally, I think that if you pretend to be fair you should revert the change and wait for the result of this discussion. As you say it is obviously more general, so I use your words (only adding a little bit) and we should get on the general question of naming French and/or Basque and/or Corsican and/or...places. You say that a "general rule for French cities" is the placenames to be the French ones (and I add: "and just them", it seems). It should be remembered that "commons" is a worldwide instrument and nothing is written about that, the only consideration (it is also discutable and improvable) is about encouraging the use of English ("Commons Language Policy"; nothing is said about "officiality", this concept is related with power and we shouldn't behave like institutions or like the UN with "vetoing states" and the rest, we are plain people who should be equal in rights). So such decision might be taken by some French-speaking contributors but it is not universal and it is as ideological as if Basque language contributors decide that "general rule for Basque cities is the use of Basque placenames and just them" or if Corsican language contributors decide that "general rule for Corsican cities is the use of Corsican placenames and just them". These decisions would become at the first phase incompatible one with the other so only if you think that there are first and second class languages (opposite to the universal value of equality) you can impose French-only placenames. Per se, by the way, monolingual propositions are more "ideological" than bilingual ones and nobody asked to delete French forms. If you consider "redirect" a splendid way to treat Basque language (An alternative...a redirection in Basque language you wrote in Anglet / Angelu), that proofs that technically it is OK so obviously it can work also for French or whatever language contributors and I don't understand how now you say Category redirects do not work properly. I encourage Havang, Unai, Theklan and yourself to go on with the little doubts to deal with about technique. We are about to reach a solution and that might be good for new ways so that everybody feels "commons" is really a balanced and just tool. As you can read in User Talk:Foroa a lot of criteria about language use are not defined. It is interesting to read the discussion about Moving categories against rules including Double standards, where some Czech contributor complains about something similar: his/her category-naming proposals in Czech have been turned into English but it doesn't happen the same with "bigger" languages. In our discussion we see that some disagree on using (also) Basque but there is not the same pression Basque (or Czech) contributors have for French-only named categories like the example (there are thousands) of Category:Cathédrale Notre-Dame-de-l'Assomption de Lescar (an example very similar to this Czech complain). Or just in this page most of the subcategories are French-only:this, this etc. I think we can reach a fair agreement so let's try our best. Havang, you asked Croquant to concentrate the discussion here; you didn't ask him to revert the unfair and unilateral change he did while we are still discussing. Why? Is it not a serious lack of respect of rules?--Adrar (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2010 .  :::::Why? because discussion is pending, changes, including reverts, better wait. --Havang(nl) (talk) 16:11, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Better wait? So for you Croquant has the right not to wait and break rules. The change was done following all procedures (indeed, the change proposal stayed for more than 2 weeks) but it is not fair that someone take a decision in the middle of a discussion. You shouldn't justify Croquant.--Adrar (talk) 18:30, 1 February 2010

May-be this helps to understand why I prefer single naming[edit]

Categorising goes fastest by hotcat. Take as exemple: Category:Hiriberri/Villanueva de Aezkoa (the double name is the official one and used here according to directives). If I try to put the name Villanueva de Aezkoa at hotcat (or the second part of any category name), the category is not found; I have to search by jumping to one or more wikipedia's and if I am lucky, I find the category. Therefore, I prefer single-name categories plus redirects, which by using hotcat always leads to the right category (if there is one)! --Havang(nl) (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

It got wrong today with the existing Category:Urdazubi/Urdax, I did not find Category:Urdax, created it and had to let it delete again.... --Havang(nl) (talk) 22:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

OK. May-be this helps to understand why double naming proposed here has no problems with hotcat: Try to find Saint-Just-Ibarre (in french) using hotcat, and you will easily find the bilingual one.--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 23:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

And I would have the same problem if I, as a basque speaker, must find Villanueva de Aezkoa as I know it as Hiriberri. I don't know which are the french names of most of Northern Basque Country places. Furthermore, I think that the "in english" argument is not valid, as accents are used in the same way as in french despite english has not really accents. I don't know how to write correctly eu:Senpere in french and I have to look on the french interwiki to find then the Commons page. It's the same for you and for me. If we put redirects to a neutral category denomination it would be better for all of us. -Theklan (talk) 00:41, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
It is not as simple as that: the first name for sure gives the second one by hotcat or search; the second name by hotcat shows up red; but if the category is double-named, and someone, not using hotcat, types the first name as single-named category, that category shows up red also; she/he or someone else will start making it blue. Double names are really a practical problem.... if it were only for the basque city names.... but there are so many languages, so many items. Here I close my arguments. Thanks for the interesting debate! --Havang(nl) (talk) 11:59, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

You mentioned a technical problem with Hotcat. I explained you that there is no problem, but then you answer with another thing I don't understand. The person which looks for a city of the Northern Basque Country would find a category-redirect (both from french and basque). No problem at all. I don't understand your argument. On the other hand, you say that "Double names are really a practical problem", and I think it's true, but it's not correct here in Commons to write them in french. That's why I prefer a inclusive bilingual name. --Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 12:33, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

  • Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment in regards to Category:Urdax, the correct format to redirect this is
{{category redirect|Urdazubi/Urdax}}
If people use HotCat (or the upload form) to select categories, the images will be forwarded. Further, if images happen to get into Category:Urdax by some other way, a bot recategorizes them into Category:Urdazubi/Urdax on a daily basis. (Note: there is a 7 day cooldown period when the redirect is first created). -- User:Docu at 09:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Category redirects[edit]

Category redirects do not work properly. It's the reason why you have to use the template {{Category redirect}} instead, but, with this template, there is no automatic redirection: when selecting the "redirected" category, images will not be stored in the right place. Croquant (talk) 12:53, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Another technical problem? I made a change in the redirect of Category:Saint-Just-Ibarre. Can you check it? Is it enough for you?--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 13:03, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

No, it does not work, as I just explained. See an example here. Croquant (talk) 13:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't work if you categorize a file under that wrong category; but it happens the same with the usual category-redirect... I think Bots can resolve this problem, don't you think?--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 14:05, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Bots can probably do the job, but what about the Hotcat's user who will not find his image at the right place immediately ? This will likely be troublesome for him. Croquant (talk) 14:40, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I only see now that the move-procedure has not been followed for Category:Saint-Just-Ibarre. #REDIRECT is for files, not for categories. The initial Category:Saint-Just-Ibarre has been redirected but not been moved by a move-template, the categoryname has not been adapted all over the wiki's; the bot doesn't move images from this category to the redirect category. If the template Move is correctly used, then after moving, Category redirect comes in, and images may go by bot to the right category. We must remind the experienced User:Foroa to clean the situation, once the decision about the final catname(s) has been taken.--Havang(nl) (talk) 14:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

The procedure has intentionally been changed, so as to open the possibilities of this discussion... I think redirecting it's technically possible (see this). I have already asked about it. And Foroa can be helpful, of course.--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 14:55, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

I just saw that my previous test was not well done : if placing an image in the redirected category "by hand" is not OK, using Hotcats gives what is expected. So, forget my wrong comment. Croquant (talk) 15:45, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, it was one of the advantages of the hard redirects explained here...--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 16:27, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
So, there're not technical problems to change the category name? Let's do it! -Theklan (talk) 20:06, 31 January 2010 (UTC) @ Not technical problems to use redirects.--Havang(nl) (talk) 07:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose strongly for reasons explained above: contrary to the de facto general rule for French cities: use of the official name, with absolutely no exception, and to the "shortest possible name" rule. Croquant (talk) 05:11, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly for reasons explained above: de facto general rules are not rules, and "the shortest possible name" rule means not " the shortest possible french name".--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 09:00, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Category naming is not meant to be done in several different languages. Now the descriptions can be done in different languages. For instance, we don't want to see some Switzerland category named with the 4 available and official languages of Switzerland. Esby (talk) 09:41, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Category naming is neither meant to be done in french.--Unai Fdz. de Betoño (talk) 12:15, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly Commons still to be defined, it can take two ways: a) Become "UN bis" with vetoing members (de facto, official, we don't want). b) Build something different and new, supporting diversity and equality. Technique helps as shown here.--Adrar (talk) 15:22, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree. So my commitment to the Basque language and culture, and against jacobinism dictates me: remember what happens in Quebec with the french language, in Canada the french language is minoritary, what names has the Quebecian localities? In english or in french? Quebec is Canada but their village names are in the language that speak their habitants: french, so Why if in Canada the 85% of people being english-speakers the names of Quebec are in french?.--Euskalduna 18:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly for reasons above (and some below maybe). Names must be representative of the place, not the "colonial" ones. We could use Rhodesia because my grandma knows it better than Zimbabwe, but that won't be the best way to aknowledge the real name. Furthermore, if the shortest possible name is the rule the category must be Donibane Garazi (15 characters) and not Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port (23 characters). -Theklan (talk) 13:31, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly for reasons other users have explained. My vote is for Donibane Garazi -Larbelaitz (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly the real name is Donibane Garazi and no the name who french put. sorry by my english. www.zuialde.tk
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly Donibane Garazi is shorter; the name is older than the french one; and, in fact, it's much more interesting if we look at the subject with some interest in toponymy. -boligorria
Symbol keep vote.svg Agree strongly for all the reasons explained that are agree with Donibane Garazi -camilo.c
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose like I said on the village pump, it's far better to have the title in basque for basque readers and in french for franch readers. Category redirect *are* not possible for the moment. Plus, I'm sorry but the vote upward doesn't really count (basque POV pusher without editions on this project). Québec is not a good comparaison because French is official langage there (the only one), these case is more like New Orleans. Cdlt, VIGNERON * discut. 08:29, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose strongly We are here to use the English name. To quote a very relevant question by Euskalduna above : "what names has the Quebecian localities? In english or in french?". Here on commons, the English name is used : Category:Quebec City, not Québec or Québec (ville). French or Basque names are irrelevant, the important thing is to find which name is most commonly used in English - and this is obviously the French name today, it might be different in 2050 or 2090, but we have no crystal ball. Touriste (talk) 21:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Result: Most users think it must be moved... so it must be moved. -Theklan (talk) 16:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Give me the policy that says that a vote will decide the naming of a category. Things have always worked by consensus and it has not changed. I reverted your edit. Esby (talk) 17:11, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


Is this a joke ? I have just clicked on Special:Contributions/Boligorria or Special:Contributions/Camilo.c. Please be serious. Touriste (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Is this a joke? Larbelaitz, www.zuialde.tk,-boligorria and camilo.c are no valid voters. --Havang(nl) (talk) 20:07, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Those are not votes but opinions at best. On larrun we can get an agreement, since mountains have no official names, here it's different. Putting the two names as a category name is not a solution for the reasons already mentionned. Esby (talk) 21:14, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
So as it can't be reached a consensus the best way is to let it in the way less people wants in the votation. The reason to vote is trying to know which of the not-consensuable opinions must be done. OR is this a dictatorship of the less? -Theklan (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

No, Theklan, (letting out of consideration that this less is a trompe-l'oeil caused by false votes) this is not a dictatorship of the less. We all have argued a long time at the village pump and the reason is to be seen at infobox of Eu:wiki Izen ofiziala: Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port and at en:wiki title: Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port. So it is, and sorry if that hurts your feelings. Greetings, --Havang(nl) (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

This IS a dictatorship of the "most spoken language", of course. This discussion was moved to the Village Pump and there's not a net decission there, but there is here, as we have voted. The official name is, of course, Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, but this is because french state is glotocide. They don't want any other language. We're in Commons, not in the jacobine France. Here we MUST respect languages and also proper names. I'm sure you can find tons of references for Bombay and less for Mumbai, but we put here Mumbai. I'm sure you can find tons of english references to Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port but we SHOULD call it Donibane Garazi. What we're proposing is to have both names. It's the most inclussive option and the most voted. But you insist on dictating rules for avoiding changes. Meanwhile basque citizens has their language rights oppresed also on Commons. -Theklan (talk) 19:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

(Indent reset) We did try multi-lingual categories in many places, including in the German speaking parts of Italy, and most of the time, we came back from it because it complicates matters too much. The places we tested had all offical languages, so it is still acceptable in Spanish Basque country, but I would try to avoid it. I spend hours trying to find the offical Basque names in English without success, on the en:wikipedia, the names used to change sometimes 5 times per month.

In the Northern Basque Country, the problem is even more difficult with its complex composed names on one hand, but above all, even if one wants to find the Basque names, such as in fr:Saint-Jean-Pied-de-Port, one has to read through the article to find the Basque name (the local use of the Basque language is even not mentioned), and in its county fr:Pays de Cize, one finds even no Basque names. De Gaulle did a thourough job in eredicating non-French from the French territory, and the Basque mouvement will suffer for this from several years.

Anyway, In France, they are lucky in that almost no cities have translated names, so the offical French list can be used. The primary goal of categories is to find as easily as possible a specific village and we have to admit that the official French name is the easiest way. Adding a second Basque part to the name makes it a lot more complicated to find it and will, quite rightly, irritate a substantial amount of people. So if you want to serve the Basque cause, I would suggest to create easy access to categories and articles, and document there properly.

As a final note, if we follow your logic, Category:Brussels should be called Category:Bruselles / Brussel / Brüssel, Category:Cologne should be called Category:Cologne / Köln, Category:The Hague should be called Category:The Hague / Den Haag, Category:Liège should be called Category:Liège / Luttich / Luik ? Never seen such a proposition and I doubt that it will ever be proposed.

So, as a conclusion, and hopefully end of the debate: Commons is a server for many wikipedia's and needs a simple and uniform naming system that makes it easy to locate places with a uniform name and using a uniform rule. So the French official name list is already more than complex enough. This is not a matter of voting, just a simple rule to garantee that Commons can play its server role in the best possible way. --Foroa (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree with Foroa point of view, except for the de Gaulle part, I think it's more linked to the historical policy in France, starting here en:Ordinance_of_Villers-Cotterêts, and not necessarily attribuable to only De Gaulle. Anyway the point is minor. What is the current state in policy about making category redirect? We know the images won't get categorized in the main cat if they are categorized in a redirect, but it's nothing a bot can't fix. Creating such redirect would help finding the correspondance between basque and french name. Setting up the interwiki to the basque articles, supposed they don't exist would also help here. Esby (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I discussed with various persons in France defending Breton, Occitan and Flemisch, and they are still very angry with De Gaulle. I discussed with a guy from Toulouse with a very strong Toulouse accent, and strangely enough, he defended the "uniform" French and he told me that De Gaulle was wonderful. He would doubtless be delighted about the current debate about the French "national identity".
Anyway, about redirects:
  • redirects are warmly recommended for alternate names (not for spelling mistakes)
  • Hotcat replaces dynamically (and immediatly) redirected categories.
  • Russbot moves redirected categories once per day. Sometimes, other bots do such moves too but not on a regular or predictable base. --Foroa (talk) 13:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Topic opened on Village pump[edit]

A new topic concerning this discussion is opened on Village pump. Croquant (talk) 05:19, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Croassant, why? Because there are not many french speakers? Is that Fair Play? To divert the discussion of the place that has emerged and is being discussed? Euskalduna 19:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC) Don't change my pseudo to a grotesque one (croasser => to caw). Croquant (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
User:Euskalduna, one of the ground rules of wikipedia is good faith... It was me who asked (see up) for discussion on Village pump, as the topic is of more general importance than the basque concern. Other solutions are available; see e.g. Category:Soule, where I introduced a list with catlinks for all basque names. That's what I do in similar cases with dutch names. Greetings. --Havang(nl) (talk) 13:45, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
O.K. Havang. I believe in fair play. Only not to my liking which open a vote here, then open the same vote in another section. Many people here have already given their vote or opinion, and that vote is not in the section "Village pump", as if here had not previously held a previous rating. I think that at least those votes should be transferred or released in "Village pump".
I also don´t like that being an issue under discussion, changes were made on this subject without consulting anyone, without knowing the final outcome of the discussion. Greetings from the Basque Country to Nederland.--Euskalduna 18:26, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
I believe in fair play too. This is no official vote, as no vote has been defined, and the proposals are out of the scope which is move from cat:A to cat:A / B and not move from Cat:A to Cat:B. And look at this: how can Larbelaitz vote if he has not contributed to commons? [2]. Also people have in the first month at commons no voting rights,at least in several wikipedia's<i have to look ik up for commons but new users are excused to not know that. --Havang(nl) (talk) 17:41, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I don´t know if this is an official vote or where we have to vote "oficially". But I know that if something it´s under discussion nobody can´t make changes until the discussion or vote is finished. --Euskalduna 01:42, 3 February 2010 (UTC)