Commons:Categories for discussion/2009/11/Category:Jurists

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According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word jurist can mean:

  • "One who practises in law; a lawyer".
  • "[A] judge".
  • "One who professes or treats of law; one versed in the science of law; a legal writer".
  • "In the Universities: A student of law, or one who takes a degree in law".

Given the potential for the term to be misunderstood, I propose that "Category:Jurists" be merged into "Category:Legal scholars". It appears that most of the content of "Category:Jurists" relates to legal scholars. In any case, we should not have both "Category:Jurists" and "Category:Legal scholars".

Content relating to lawyers should be placed in "Category:Lawyers" and to judges in "Category:Judges". It should not be put into "Category:Jurists".

If the proposal is accepted, the following subcategories will also require renaming:

— Cheers, JackLee talk 13:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Agreed. In the US, I see "jurist" in headlines and in articles or speeches with a bunch of other "75-cent words." I also suggest that some descriptive statement be placed at the beginning of each of the categories. Estillbham (talk) 15:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Comment: I'm curious. What's a 75-cent word? A term (ab)used by journalists? — Cheers, JackLee talk 16:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
  • On the English Wikipedia, we use jurist categories just as a general parent category for all legal professions, grouping together specific subcategories for lawyers, judges, legal scholars and professors, and legal writers. Why shouldn't that be done here as well? It certainly isn't synonymous with just "legal scholar," so if these categories need cleaning up, renaming it in that manner is not the solution. Postdlf (talk) 16:24, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: I guess that's possible. However, it seems a bit unnecessary to have an overarching category called "Category:Jurists" with "Category:Judges", "Category:Lawyers" and "Category:Legal scholars" as subcategories of it, as these three can simply be subcategories of "Category:Law" (which is the case now). I appreciate that "legal scholar" is only one of the possible meanings of jurist. However, at present it seems that most editors seem to be treating the two terms as synonymous, and this is undesirable as there shouldn't be two categories covering the same subject matter. I feel the most appropriate solution is just to delete "Category:Jurists" because of its ambiguity and distribute its contents among "Category:Judges", "Category:Lawyers" and "Category:Legal scholars", as appropriate. — Cheers, JackLee talk 19:10, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
    • Let's see some further discussion on whether it's helpful as a grouping category. And I suspect it might be the best term for some historical/ancient figures that are known as codifiers or law-givers (or "legal philosophers"), but who weren't legal scholars or judges per se. Postdlf (talk) 22:43, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Behalten: Juristen sind alle, die eine grundständige juristische Ausbildung erhalten haben (in Deutschland z.B. mindestens Referendarexamen). Diese Kategorie kann man dann nach Tätigkeitsbereich (Rechtsanwalt, Notar, Staatsanwalt, Wirtschaftjurist, Verwaltungsjurist, Rechtswissenschaftler etc.) untergliedern. --Mogelzahn (talk) 08:27, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'm seeing several proposed outcomes for this discussion:

  1. Merge Category:JuristsCategory:Legal scholars, Category:Judges, Category:Lawyers
  2. Redirect Category:JuristsCategory:Law (or Category:Legal scholars?)
  3. Category:Jurists by countryCategory:Legal scholars by country
  4. Category:Jurists by faithCategory:Legal scholars by faith

Is this a correct reading of the discussion so far? BTW, Mogelzahn above voted keep as is. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 22:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't speak German – what was Mogelzahn's reason for voting "keep"? If we set aside Mogelzahn's comment for now, as of November 2009 there appeared to be consensus (though only involving Postdlf and myself) that "Jurists" should be retained only for ancient people recognized as legal philosophers, or codifiers of law or lawgivers. Other people sometimes referred to as "jurists" should be categorized under "Lawyers", "Legal scholars" or "Judges". — Cheers, JackLee talk 21:18, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Google translate: "Keep: lawyers are those who have received an undergraduate legal education (in Germany, for example, at least state examination). This category can then be broken down by sector of activity (lawyer, notary, attorney, business lawyer, jurist, legal scholar, etc.)." --Mogelzahn
TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:13, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm goig to assume "Juristen" means "jurists", not "lawyers" as Google translates it. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 23:15, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
We need input from a German speaker as to the meaning of "jurist" in Germany and perhaps other civil law jurisdictions. Right now, it's not clear to me. Note that, per policy, category names are supposed to be in English, so if the term jurist has a special meaning in some jurisdictions, it may be better to have a specially named category like "Jurists (German lawyers)" for clarity. — Cheers, JackLee talk 06:48, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
My translation: "Keep: jurists are those who have received an academic degree... But you might want to ask User:Wpopp, who seems to be a translator. Face-smile.svg Lotje (talk) 14:30, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, if the translations of Mogelzahn's comment are accurate, then his vote amounts to proposing that "Jurists" remain as an overarching parent category, with subcategories like "Lawyers", "Legal scholars" and "Judges". I guess I have no strong objection to that (though it still seems rather unnecessary). There should be a usage note in the "Jurists" main category as well as a {{Categorise}} tag, to urge editors to put files into the subcategories as much as possible rather than just to dump them into "Jurists". Also, some rearrangement of subcategories will be required: for instance, "Lawyers from Germany", "Legal scholars from Germany" and "Judges from Germany" will have to be made subcategories of "Jurists from Germany". — Cheers, JackLee talk 11:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
If I may say something, „Juristen“ in German means „Lawyers“ too. „Jurists“ may have a slightly different meaning, this word comes from Latin and refers to either legal scholar or already-trained lawyer. In Czech republic we use mainly „Laweyr“ („právník“ in Czech; because „Law“ = „právo“) and that is everybody, who is trained in law and use it in his career. Like judge, attorney, state prosecutor, notary etc. Old word „Jurist“ („jurista“ in Czech) is not used often, most often in the importance of student of law.
So, there is a problem with two categories: Category:Jurists from the Czech Republic and Category:Lawyers from the Czech Republic. Both of them contains the same, lawyers. --Vlout (talk) 08:39, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

There is no consensus for merging Category:Jurists into other categories. Sven Manguard Wha? 17:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)