Commons:Categories for discussion/2012/08/Category:Cyclamor in heraldry

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Category:Cyclamor in heraldry[edit]

There is no such thing in English. It should be Annulet in heraldry. Kiltpin (talk) 21:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Why do you think that the English is the only language that is used in commons? The annulet where is alone is named cyclamor, also in English. Search in google books the book, "A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry" and search cyclomor inside it. It says "A single large ring, not used in English arms". Cyclamor in heraldry is correct. --Xavigivax (talk) 21:31, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
I believe that we have a convention that as far as Heraldry is concerned, English and English terminology will be used, except when blazoning in a different language. Has that convention changed? In English heraldic terminology, the charges should be called annulets. Neither dictionary.com, nor our own Wiktionary give a listing for Cyclamor. Which heraldic tradition uses the word Cyclamor? As for Google Books and "A Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry" - can you provide a link? I have searched all the Google Books with that title and can find no reference. In fact, I can find no reference to the word anywhere else except for this category. What is the point of having a category that no one will ever search for? Kiltpin (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Dear Kiltpin, I don't know if someone will search for this category. However, if it not exists, will be impossible to find it. You neither know if no one will ever search for this category. I only know that the correct way to say the annulet when it is big and alone, is cyclamor. May you don't know this word because in English heraldry is not used. Here you could find the link: [1]. The mates of the French Wiki has an article: [2]. Another link in English: [3]. Anyway, your reason is not coherent. You said that cyclomor should be changed because is not a word in English, but you propose "annulet" that neither is an English word. Annulet and Cyclomor, both came from French. In Spanish we say "anillo" or "anillo ciclomor", in Catalan we say "ciclomor", in italian they say "ciclamoro", in Nederlands they say "ronde binnenzoom", in German: "grosser reif" and in French, this figure is a "cyclamor". The English language take this specific word and also say "Cyclomor", but this will be very strange for you, because it not exist in the English armorial. A cyclamor is a big annulet. The category should exists and it must be inside in the category "Annulets in heraldry", then if someone like you don't know this word, he will learn a new heraldic term. Regards, --Xavigivax (talk) 08:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
I can only refer you back to my last comments, which you have not addressed. It really does not matter what it means in Spanish, or French, or Catalan, or German, or Dutch or Italian - the title is in English. And in English it is an Annulet.
By your reasoning we should have a category called "anillo ciclomor" and another called "ciclomor" and another called "ciclamoro" and another called "ronde binnenzoom" and another called "grosser reif". What about Portugal, you seem to have left that out and what about Poland and Lithuania, they have a long heraldic tradition - why aren't they included?
Lets not forget the Balkan states and the whole of Scandinavia - lets have a category for every country in the world!
You are choosing just one language - French. Why not just choose, English - like all the other categories? Kiltpin (talk) 12:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Why do you ask for reference of the heraldic term cyclomor in English? I give to you two references in English that explain that the annulet where is big and alone is called cyclomor and you ignore it. My reasoning did not say that I want a category in each language. But English has a lack of vocabulary that not recognize some charges that are not used in English arms, like the "bordure of pieces?" or the "mount floury?" that you can watch here: File:Escut d'armes dels Montsuar.svg. The cyclomor is not used in English arms and may be you don't know what it is, but it is not a reason to delete the category.--Xavigivax (talk) 06:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I invite to some users of different countries that seems to have knowledge about heraldry. I ask them their opinion. I think that this would be good for this discussion. You can read my invitations watching my contributions. --Xavigivax (talk) 07:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I've been invited by Xavigivax. As far I as I know, knowing better French, Dutch and German heraldry of the end of the middle ages and early modern age, I have never seen such thing as a "cyclamor", but acording to Anne Behaghel Dindorf (french author of a linguistic PhD about medival balzoning), it is something like a large annulet or a circular orle. The word seems to be seldom if ever found in french, and mainly in tardive blazons. German and dutch say "ring", whatever the size the ordinary. In french, we have "anneau" for a large one (and sometimes whatever the size and number) and "annelet" ("anneau" with the suffix "-let" used to designate smaller things), for smaller ones. But the ring (geometrical meaning) being mainly used as a small and multiplicated ordinary, even "anneau" is rare. Personnaly, I think it would be much more comprehensive and simple to name the category "1 annulet in heraldry", and to add the classical polyglotic header. Katepanomegas (talk) 17:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello, I've been invited by Xavigivax too. Personally, I agree with user Xavigivax, this is a heraldic term used in different regions and countries, moreover France is a core area in the beginning and development of the heraldry, so in my opinion in this case the use of this term is revelant even for English speakers.
On the other hand I understand the arguments of user Kiltpin and his opinion is solid too. The consensus should always be the most important. I think User:Katepanomegas has given a possible solution the use of the expresion Category:1 annulet in heraldry and I add another idea: It would be useful to put a template or infobox at the beginning of the category where users could read that 1 heraldic annulet in French is "cyclamor", in Spanish "anillo ciclomor", in italian "ciclamoro".... and redirect the Cyclamor in heraldry to Category:1 annulet in heraldry. Heralder (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Hi! Invited too by Xavigivax to participate in this discussion, I've noticed that the French word cyclamor (also used by Spanish, Catalan or Italian heraldic tradition) is somewhat obsolete in English nowadays, but it's useful to describe the annulet when it's alone and occupying the whole field, a charge that seems not to be used in British heraldry but existent in other traditions. Then, I'd say that 1 annulet and cyclamor would be synonyms, and on the page about category 1 annulet it would be right to include that when the annulet covers the whole field can be named also with the French name cyclamor. --Enfo (talk) 07:33, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
"Cyclamor (french) - (german) großer, flacher Ring" --
Source 1: Herold - Verein für Heraldik, Genealogie und verwandte Wissenschaften. Wappenbilderordnung (1990-1996). Symbolorum armorialium ordo, hrsg. vom Herold - Verein für Heraldik, Genealogie und verwandte Wissenschaften zu Berlin. Bearb. von Jürgen Arndt und Werner Seeger, 2 Bde, 2. ergänzte u. berichtigte Aufl., Neustadt a. d. Aisch 1990-1996 (kurz: WBO). Bd. 1.: Wappenbilder; Bd. 2: General-Index.
Editorische Notiz: Zugleich Neubearbeitung des Handbuchs der heraldischen Terminologie von Maximilian Gritzner (Einleitungsband, Abt. B des Neuen Siebmacherschen Wappenbuches, Nürnberg, 1890). Band-2: S. 87 --
Source 2: J. Siebmacher's grosses und allgemeines Wappenbuch, Einleitungsband, Abteilung B: Grundsätze der Wappenkunst verbunden mit einem Handbuch der heraldischen Terminologie (Maximilian Gritzner). Nürnberg: Bauer & Raspe, 1889. S. 222. --Arthur Diebold (talk) 15:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)