Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/01/Category:1520s paintings from Germany

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Category:1520s paintings from Germany[edit]

1 imho this means paintings are now outside Germany. For File:Altdorfer, Albrecht - Donaulandschaft mit Schloß Wörth.jpg in Germany Category:1520s paintings from Germany is not applicable, here category .. in Germany must be used. All paintings in this cat are outside Germany exept File:Altdorfer, Albrecht - Donaulandschaft mit Schloß Wörth.jpg put in this cat by User:Mattes.—Oursana (talk) 12:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment Wrong approach. Why pick one out of ~ 1,000 of such categories? A meta discussion is needed, or a new named extra category or at least a definition for the members of category:YYDDs paintings from COUNTRY. In my understanding, category:YYDDs paintings from COUNTRY means the decade of the completion of a painting plus the origin of the artist (e.g. completion in 1594 + German artist = category:1590s paintings from Germany). --Mattes (talk) 16:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Category:1520s paintings from Germany 27 Files out of 28 are correctly outside Germany, so users do not use this cat for paintings from and in Germany, see Baroque paintings from Italy with the following definition: English: Baroque paintings produced by Italian painters, currently located outside Italy. For baroque paintings in Italy please see: Baroque paintings in Italy.Definition by G.dall orto see difflink–—Oursana (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC);
Also see Category:Art in Venice: English: Works of art that were created or found in Venice and are still located there. For works of art that were created or found in Venice but now are preserved elsewhere please see Category:Art from Venice instead. For works of art which are not sure where they are, please see: Category:Art of Venice.–—Oursana (talk) 14:33, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I typed a long and rather annoyed comment on this topic a few days ago, then forgot to save it. Oursana, your definition does not make sense. A painting "from" a place is simply a painting "from" a place. This is a useful category structure. I went to a lot of work populating Category:Paintings from France by decade using the "VisualFileChange" tool (and Mattes gets credit for setting up most of these categories). I would like to do the same for Germany, Italy, and Spain, at least. I will not be considering whether the painting is "still in" that country, because it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter what the definitions of some of those categories you mention are. They aren't valid definitions by the basic semantics of English prepositions. They lead us to an unuseful and illogical category structure (it's already happened, but I'm trying to fight it). "From" does not mean "no longer in", unless the context makes it obvious. And "Category:Paintings in France certainly does not contain only paintings by French painters that are still in French museums. The definitions you propose are not holding, because those definitions do not make sense. Please reconsider how far you want to take this argument. There are so many "art in a place" categories and so few "art from a place" categories that is mind-boggling. Yet which is more important? Obviously to categorize art by its origination tells us something important. What museum it happens to be located in today, much less important. Boo-Boo Baroo (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
I still hold on my arguments, "from" means indeed "no longer in", from is only meant after movement, if the painting is not moved it is only "in a country", the movement outside the country makes it "from the country", see Category:Paintings from Italy in Spain "from Italy" you use if you have no specific sub cats like this or the actual place outside Italy is not known. I do not want to repeat, but there is a difference between Category:Art from Venice and Category:Art of Venice. Perhaps you mean "of country"= italian, dutch..., then indeed the actual place is not important.–—Oursana (talk) 02:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
Experiencing similar categories let me point out again that one can not only decide from seeing Cat:Art from x, but one has also to consider, that there is at the same time Cat: Art in x:
Category:1520s paintings from Germany and Category:1520s paintings in Germany, Category:Baroque paintings from Italy Category:Baroque paintings in Italy; Category:Art from Venice Category:Art in Venice. When both categories apply, using both would be over categorization, in these cases in X should prevail and from x should only be applicable when in x does not apply concurrently. So one must not interpret with view on grammar and wording only but from the context what makes sense with view to concurrenting categories.
And so again see the Definition: Baroque paintings produced by Italian painters, currently located outside Italy. For baroque paintings in Italy please see: Category:Baroque paintings in Italy.and also: Works of art that were created or found in Venice but now are preserved elsewhere. For works of art still located in Venice please see Category:Art in Venice instead. For works of art which are not sure where they are, please see: Category:Art of Venice. I am not familiar with the organization of this discussion. As it is a question concerning also other cats, should it be discussed in another place? –—Oursana (talk) 23:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I can imagine that those who don't have to do with Italian art, this system (in, from, of) can be almost incomprehensible and seem redundant. It is not. In Italy we have such an abundance of artistic objects of all kinds and from every culture and period, that it was necessary to organize his art in this way. The word "found" that sounds strange for a painting, it refers mainly to archaeological objects. In past centuries, Italy was truly plundered in ancient (and even in the medieval and modern) art that statues, vases, paintings, jewelry and more of extraordinary quality are now in the most important museums and private collections in the world. So, if we have any category of art in Italy (for example, "Ancient Roman statues in Rome"), and in it there are files of statues that are stored in London, New York, the Louvre together with those located in museums in Rome, then the preposition "in" simply is incorrect and not true. This categorization of Italian art is probably not so important for other countries, for example Germany. This can be discussed. But for me personally would sound also strange and incorrect the categorization "Paintings in Germany" used for a painting which is now in the Metropolitan Museum or the Louvre or the British Museum. For the categorization of Italian art, go back to a more simplified and ambiguous system, simply it's unthinkable and impossible. Furthermore among the artistic categories of Italy there are still many that need to be corrected and remedied in this way. The work certainly is not done yet. --DenghiùComm (talk) 10:27, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks you for your answer, which I do not quite understand. I must admit, that until now, I did not notice that in is not in.
Here we are discussing if a painting from a german painter, which is still in Germany, can be cat:...from and in e.g. Germany at the same time, or as you said in Category:Art from Venice For works of art still located in Venice please see Category:Art in Venice instead. For works of art which are not sure where they are, please see: Category:Art of Venice.--Oursana (talk) 16:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

2 I think the answer is implicit. If in is in a place, then in cannot be the same as from a place. If an object is in a location, then it's in that location; if it is no more in that location, then it is not in that location but from that location. I think it's clear. It cannot be the same! (bolded by)--Oursana (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)--DenghiùComm (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This seems like a very strange interpretation of the phrase "something from somewhere". If I say a person is "from France", do they have to have moved out of the country? There are very very many people who paintings which are from France who which are also currently in France. If "from" and "in" are mutually exclusive, how do I describe someone something from France who which is still there? Maybe this is a language barrier thing --moogsi·(blah) 20:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Out of interest, what are the words you're translating as "in", "from" and "of"? Do they have a specific meaning when talking about objects or works of art? "From" in English doesn't imply any kind of motion in any context --moogsi·(blah) 20:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
I do not understand what sense does to move the discussion on people. We are talking about objects, namely objects of art. People are not objects, and unlike objects, they move. The people of the world are divided by country (of). It is very reasonable that people by occupation are categorized "from country". A French architect or artist is always from France, if it is in France or if he moved to the United States. For our categories, for a person it makes no sense to speak of "in country". I'm surprised that it's necessary to explain this. --DenghiùComm (talk) 18:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm not talking about this very specific context, I'm talking about the language in general. You can't give a word a definition that no-one is familiar with and then expect them to use the categories in the way you expect. You can't say to everyone "oh by the way, before you use this category, let me tell you what 'from' really means..." I'm surprised it's necessary to explain this.. :( --moogsi (blah) 20:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Why not? Commons is a multi-cultural project. Being clear is the best thing to do. Unnecessary controversy ... --DenghiùComm (talk) 21:44, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Well you certainly can say it to everyone... there's just no practical way to do that. Putting a note on the category page isn't enough. I just wish there were internationalization on the category names... --moogsi (blah) 22:54, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
Foo is lovely this time of year --moogsi (blah) 01:33, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
  • From should mean "from" regardless of current location, "in" is used for current location. Johnbod (talk) 05:26, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep. Unless I was taught a different language than you, "in" means "in" and "from" means "from". There is no need to explain anything, simply there are some people that misread "from" as "in", and viceversa, hence the need to correct them. We need a method to tell if a painting "from" Venice currently "in" Milan is a different thing than a painting "from" Milan now in Milan -- or in New York. The simplest way is to say that what is in, is "in", and what is from, is "from". Saying that what is from is "in", and what is in is "from" is by no way a "simpler" way: it is merely a mess. --User:G.dallorto (talk) 13:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Please, to get you right: Would you call a painting still in Venice from Venice? Yes or no. Thanks. I think you remember yourdefinition in Baroque paintings from Italy--Oursana (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

3 (?see above difflink)--Oursana (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

  • Symbol keep vote.svg Keep Kinda weird ... Oursana should could create such categories (e.g. 1520s paintings once on display in Germany). --Mattes (talk) 15:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC) modified --Mattes (talk) 22:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Symbol keep vote.svg Keep as stated above and following G.dallorto, and DenghiùComm 26.1. @Mattes:we must not create so many new categories. I recommend: ...from Italy in Austria as we have many, see among this, and ....from Italy location unknown, ...Italian...in Italy. Hopefully everybody can go ahead with this. It is not a question whether to keep, but how to use the cats--Oursana (talk) 18:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Even if you had more than one person agreeing with you, the thousands of other people using the category system would continue to use the words "from" and "in" to mean what they mean. I suggest you stop being so invested in this --moogsi (blah) 00:21, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
obviously you cannot count to three. I simply found different/disambigious categorizations, which is necessary to discuss.--Oursana (talk) 08:24, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
obviously you cannot look up "from" in a dictionary. I'd ask you to name the 3 people who agree with what you're proposing, but I clearly have nothing more to contribute to this. GOOD DAY. --moogsi (blah) 13:54, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Question is: Can the German file File:Altdorfer, Albrecht - Donaulandschaft mit Schloß Wörth.jpg, which is in Germany be put in Category:1520s paintings from Germany , yes or no.

  • No
    • Oursana
    • DenghiùComm
    • G.dallorto
  • Yes
    • Mattes ✓OK (along with "~in Bavaria") --Mattes (talk) 22:33, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
    • Moogsi
    • Johnbod
    • Boo-Boo Baroo

Please check if I got it right, not all statements are clear.--Oursana (talk) 20:35, 5 March 2013 (UTC)