Commons:Categories for discussion/2013/05/Category:Paddle wheel propellers

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Category:Paddle wheel propellers[edit]

Delete as a nonsense made-up name. Paddle wheels are not propellers, they are distinct from this. Category:Paddle wheels is perfectly adequate already. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:34, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Symbol support vote.svg Support an upmerge into Category:Paddle wheels. A "propeller" as a mechanism is always the screw-type that rotates perpendicular to the direction of travel. However Category:Ship propellers includes propellers in the sense of "propulsion mechanism" and includes pump-jets, paddlewheels.... however there is no need to add a qualifier, it's already very clear what a paddle wheel is –⁠moogsi (blah) 16:44, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
As I have already exposed on Andy’s discussion page, paddle wheel propeller is not a term just made up, and contrary to his statement, restricting the expression paddle wheel to wheels driven by engines is not adequate, as this is certainly not the case for paddle wheel mills. --Abderitestatos (talk) 16:49, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Yesterday I had to revert your completely incorrect attempt to merge water wheels into paddle wheels. Please stop this, and don't try it again until you understand the difference between them.
  • Paddle wheels are driven by engines and cause a water flow. They are used to propel boats, but some (like the algae farm example) are also rarely found as simple pumps, on land.
  • Water wheels are driven by water flow and provide mechanical power to a mill etc. They are not used on boats.
Andy Dingley (talk) 16:54, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
And why do you keep repeating what I just invalidated? --Abderitestatos (talk) 17:00, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Googling for a random phrase and finding a match from a Siamese-English Dictionary is not generally considered reliable evidence for anything. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:18, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Dictionaries are not generally considered reliable evidence for proving existence or meaning of a word? And engineers guides, patents etc. are not either? You cannot be serious. --Abderitestatos (talk) 22:59, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Also, neither Category:Paddle wheels nor Category:Paddle wheel propellers belong in Category:Paddle steamers, because there are paddle-wheel motor ships, too. --Abderitestatos (talk) 15:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, I thought it was obvious what a paddle wheel is, in fact I almost included in my last comment that they are definitely distinct from water wheels, even though they are similar things in principle. The definitions Andy Dingley gives are correct. There is maybe some confusion because the blades on a water wheel can be called paddles (by analogy because they're flat surfaces for resisting water). I think the strong association between "paddle" and propulsion (the definition of the verb "paddle", the primary meaning of the noun) is enough to keep them logically separate (a water wheel does not do anything like paddling, for example). But really the fact that they are semantically separate is demonstrated simply by just doing an image search: "water wheel" brings up a lot of static mechanisms, "paddle wheel" gives you a lot of pictures of boats. There is no confusion between the terms in general use –⁠moogsi (blah) 16:02, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
The Google search results above have expired, but as long as we're playing that game:
"paddle wheel propeller" 23,700 results, mostly in the context of other methods of propulsion
"paddle wheel" 1,170,000 results
"paddle wheel mill" 57,600 results
"watermill" 3,370,000 results
I don't think there's an argument for renaming anything unless you're arguing that a "paddle wheel" and a "paddle wheel propeller" are different things –⁠moogsi (blah) 16:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

As seen here, for example, water wheels may be distinguished into bucket wheels and paddle wheels; why should categories be prevented from reflecting this? A blade wheel on the other hand seems to be another quite different construction. --Abderitestatos (talk) 00:42, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Because it's confusing, that's why. Look in any English dictionary (and preferably not in one passage of a book about the history of kitchens which is discussing water wheels in the context of other water wheels) and you will find something like:
paddle wheel noun. a large steam-driven wheel with boards around its circumference, situated at the stern or side of a ship so as to propel the ship through the water by its rotation.
This is the single definition given (in the OED), because, out of context, this is what this word means. Yes, in a specific context it might mean something else, e.g. "a water wheel with paddles instead of buckets", or "any wheel with paddles on it", but that is not what it generally means. The categories should not be "prevented from reflecting this" difference in types of water wheels, if you think it is necessary, but the term "paddle wheel" is taken. It's occupied. You can't make it mean something else, it's nonsense –⁠moogsi (blah) 23:50, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

But there is not even a substantial difference in construction; any paddle wheel from a ship could just as well be used as a mill wheel, and vice versa, so there must be a category that subsumes all kinds of paddle wheels. And what other name might be suitible for such a category than Category:Paddle wheels? --Abderitestatos (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. You might as well claim that because a boat hull could be used as a chicken coop (many have been), we should merge boats into chicken coops!
If you really don't understand that waterwheels, watermills, paddle wheels and boats are different items and should be categorized separately, then please just stay away from such categories altogether. Andy Dingley (talk)

Paddle wheel propeller is the specific term for the items displayed there, which is, as exposed above, also used outside Wikicommons, and that is consistent with its upper category Ship propellers; Paddle wheel, by contrast, is ambiguous and therefore should only be used as a name for an umbrella category. Besides, as illustrated by the image below, Category:Paddle steamers as a superior category is just wrong, so would you kindly desist from reinserting it again. --Abderitestatos (talk) 12:56, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous of the Hussite Wars. Clm 197, Part 1, Folio 17v Supra.jpg
  • I've reversed the heirarchy so that paddle wheel steamers is now a subcategory of paddle wheels. Although paddle steamers where the most common incarnation, there were side wheel vessels powered by man and animal treadwheels. Nor are paddles propellers, that category has been removed and the category marine propulsion substituted. The category passenger ships have been removed from paddle steamers as many early warships were of the side paddle type.--KTo288 (talk) 15:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Merged to Category:Paddle wheels. Also, the hierarchy has cleaned up by KTo288. --rimshottalk 18:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC)