Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg

This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

[edit] Image:Bandiera_della_Repubblica_Italiana_PMS_20060414.svg

This is NOT the official flag of the Italian Republic. The original flag's mid band is WHITE (HTML: FFFFFF) and not pale gray Blackcat it 15:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

If you can understand italian language, you can read Art.31 of DISPOSIZIONI GENERALI IN MATERIA DI CERIMONIALE E DISCIPLINA DELLE PRECEDENZE TRA LE CARICHE PUBBLICHE (PDF) (that is given as source of this wrong image), where italian government states the color for official textile flag of Italy. This article states also that other versions of the flag must have the same color effect of a certain Pantone color on a certain polyester fiber, and apparence of that textile with that color is truly a plain white, not dirty (pollution-soiled?) (gray) white... So these are the facts. I'm really bored about this dummy dispute. I hope that this WRONG file can be deleted shortly. -- ELBorgo (sms) 16:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete Well, I think that no explanation is necessary. --Frank87 19:30, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep — This file is perfectly named and impeccably sourced. ¦ Reisio 20:24, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete Italian flag is green, white and red. No mention of pale grey. --Fioravante Patrone com 20:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete - Unless you have a PC screen made in polyester fiber, this shade of grey is NOT suitable. If you keep it, we'll feel compelled to upload an American flag with red and pale grey stripes as well :-) --Vermondo 00:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete - There is Image:Printable_Flag_of_Italy.svg (version of the Flag that use rough hexadecimal conversion of the official Pantone colors in order to be printed on Cloth.) --Il palazzo 00:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Not the same conversion, however. ¦ Reisio 01:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete - This image is not perfectly named because this is not the flag of Italy, you should upload it under a name as invented flag of Italy or uncorrect flag of Italy--Vituzzu 00:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete - Art. 12 of Italian Constitution "Flag of the Republic is the italian tricolour: green, white and red, in three equally sized vertical bands", and Italian President Emblem, that use the same colour of the flag, say white. --Krdan Ielalir 01:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Kept. Invalid reason for deletion. It's freely licensed and within our scope. This is getting ridiculous. Commons is not place for this. Rocket000 12:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive.

[edit] Image:Bandiera_della_Repubblica_Italiana_PMS_20060414.svg

This is not the flag of Italy. The middle color should be white, not grey. 8 people asked for its deletion at the previous deletion request and only the uploader said keep. The decision was closed keep because of scope grounds. I submit that an inaccurate version of a real flag is not within the scope when it is used in articles where the real flag should appear. Specifically the part of COM:SCOPE that requires files to be of high quality. Bad colors on a flag image make it of poor quality and authenticity. -N 02:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Please take a look at all of the other discussion about this particular image. [1][2][3][4] Some say this flag is accurate, so it's within our scope. We are not here to decide on images for others. We let them decide. Rocket000 02:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Do we really let them decide? Because it looks like everyone but the uploader is against this image even existing. -N 02:42, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, there's a huge history here :) Take a look at the user report I got for closing that. Rocket000

I meant we let users decide which image to use. We can't let them decide if we delete all but the one we think is "correct". Rocket000 02:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean with «we think is "correct"». There are some issues that can't be secondable. Can I make a Canada flag in grey? --F l a n k e r 11:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

By what "we think is 'correct'", I meant what some people on Commons believe to be correct. I used "we" because it was the majority. But even a majority here shouldn't decide on images for people elsewhere. Again, we just host them. Rocket000 05:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It has been decided in Image talk:Flag of Italy.svg that this is not a flag of Italy, and therefore should not be included among Italian flags nor named as one.

If commons is not concerned with the correctness of the name of the flags, am I allowed to take a JollyRoger, upload it and name it "New Flag of United States/Israel/YouNameIt"? I don't think I would be allowed (and I would be against it, furthermore), just because it would be the wrong name of the image.

For this reason I ask this image to be removed. --TcfkaPanairjdde 14:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep Until flags created from textile. Is textile colors wrong? Is textile-to-RGB approximation incorrect? See also Category:Flags of Poland (similar hot debate were took place there too). --EugeneZelenko 16:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, textile-to-RGB conversion is wrong. How many times it is necessary to discuss it?--TcfkaPanairjdde 23:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I quote TcfkaPanairjdde: Textile-to-RGB conversion is wrong. How many times it is necessary to discuss it?--F l a n k e r 02:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Interpretations are only "wrong" to those who think differently. Rocket000 05:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Interpretations? I think there is nothing to interpret. The Earth is not flat, the flag of Italy is not grey. --F l a n k e r 11:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is as this whole thing shows. Images of the Earth being flat shouldn't be deleted either. Rocket000 03:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Previous conclusion stands. Number of voters is irrelevant; this is not a vote. Find a more useful topic to argue about than the "correct" way to convert to RGB (hint: there is no "correct way", as it comes down to the settings of your output device in the end). —LX (talk, contribs) 11:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete We not argue about to render RGB colours, but about a greyish flag. The flag of Italy is not grey. How many times it is necessary to say it? --F l a n k e r 13:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

What flag are these people carrying? Does that image need to be deleted? There are over fifty different named shades of white. This is a squabble over a 5% difference in luminosity between two shades of white and yes, it is ridiculous. They really are just two different representations of the Italian flag. Neither of them are accurate, because conversion to RGB never is, so I don't really care which one of them you choose to use for whatever purposes you have in mind, but please find a better way to cooperate than edit warring and lodging gratuitous deletion requests for each others' images. If you (by which I mean everyone involved in the dispute) think you are not capable of doing that, let us know and we can consider other means of ensuring that the parties involved do not prolong this disruption. —LX (talk, contribs) 20:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious or what? If you think that the difference between the two images is irrelevant, why keeping both? If you think there is no possibility to correctly convert from Pantone to RGB, why are you keeping an image which claims to be that conversion? --TcfkaPanairjdde 22:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm quite serious. The convention here is to keep all versions of an image unless they are exact duplicates, even if they're more or less interchangeable. As far as I can see, the uploader of the image has only claimed that he used one specific system, established and suggested by an external entity (Pantone, Inc.), for the conversion, not that it's the one and only true method or that the results will look the same everywhere. —LX (talk, contribs) 23:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete This is a Reisio's interpretation. What if i upload a dark grey-crimson-lemon flag of Germany? --Frank87 16:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

 Comment to delete voters: please try to make photo of Italian flag in different light conditions (dusk, sunny day, shadows, etc). Will middle part of flag alway be #FFFFFF? --EugeneZelenko 16:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The image name suggests that this is the flag which sports the conversion from Pantone to RGB, which is not, as LX admitted: so what is the pourpose of this image? Why this shade and not another? Why are you supporting this version with no menaning? --TcfkaPanairjdde 22:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

• My preference is to re-upload the image as Image:Italian Flag with Pantone textile color.svg and then delete Delete this one. / Fred J (talk) 22:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You are aware PMS stands for Pantone Matching System? The current name is more specific. Rocket000 03:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Some more you might like to delete:

Here's one with a different shade of green and red: Image:Flag of Italy.png

Here's one with different shades of all colors: Image:Nuvola Italy flag.svg

Oh, maybe here's a good compromise: Image:Animated-Flag-Italy.gif :) Rocket000 03:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't talk about a photograph, but a vector image (you can notice by the extension .SVG that means Scalable Vector Graphics). A photo can be in many different shades of white. A vector image must represent the "optimum" light conditions. --F l a n k e r 12:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Those aren't photos. Rocket000 12:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I was answering to LX and EugeneZelenko. --F l a n k e r 13:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

 Comment My opinion has a zero-value here because I'm not an admin. This is a fact. But with simply logical arguments can I tell you that "Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg" is NOT more specific name than "Italian Flag with Pantone textile color.svg".

• First: PMS ancronym is NOT an international or wide-used term, but a specific Pantone's industry term. So isn't univocally clear what PMS stand for, without saying that is "Pantone Matching System"....
• Second: PMS of what? Of a Pantone textile color. My name is more specific.
• Third: strictly speking "bandiera", cannot be a picture. "Bandiera" is only a piece of cloth that moves in the wind. My name is more correct, because it was similar to all the similar images of "bandiere" in commons... second using flag is better, because commons is international project, so using italian language isn't the better thing to do.
• Fourth: apparence of Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana is stated by the laws, and has pure, bright, full, totally white. If you want a real "Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana" go to Rome anf take a photo of the flag over Quirinale palace, or similar istitutional place.
• Fifth: "Flag of Italy" is more neutral term than "Flag of the Republic of Italy" that conceptually sounds like "Offical Flag of Italy" (this is so obvious, but I'm the only one that understand this concpet, I'm right? Oh sorry you don't know if I'm right or wrong, you don't use your brain for judging...)

Conclusion: Rocket000 is wrong (oh damn I say that? No, no, i don't, here right/wrong concepts don't exist in commons), actual name is not more specific than other name. It's actual name correct? No response. Commons do not require editiorial work. I can upload a photo of mine and call it "Queen Elizabeth.jpg" (cit.). Can you say I'm wrong? Really not, because, I say that my name is "Queen Elizabeth". Can you say that's false? I think you can not, because this is a mellow place (cit.), take it easy.

Obviously this image cannot be deleted (this picture is fundamental for commons). Obviously this image cannot be renamed (Reisio is the Right, Reisio is God, and he doesn't want) [Reisio, do you like to be God? I think you like a lot...].

So take it easy. This is commons, a place where all is possible, but if you hasn't the power you are a zero, and for you doing something right is impossible, because you are only a wrong-zero. All right. I don't matter. I only use my faculty to say how things are. -- ELBorgo (sms) 01:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let me try again. First of all, you are aware anyone can rename images, right? No one has done it yet because the edit war wasn't about that. It was about this image being in the category, Category:Flags of Italy, and using the template {{insignia}} which says "This image shows a flag, a coat of arms, a seal or some other official insignia" (emphasis added). Renaming the file does not solve this. You guys already got it renamed from Image:Flag of Italy.svg and have a disclaimer on the image page (I'm against disclaimers, but I left this one as a hopeful compromise). And please refrain from getting personal (e.g. "Reisio, do you like to be God?", "you don't use your brain for judging", etc.). Try to stay focused on what is spoken not the speaker. Thanks. Rocket000 04:50, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

And now that the image is protected, you guys took the edit-warring to the talk page[5], where editing others text is not acceptable. Rocket000 04:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

«you are aware anyone can rename images, right? No one has done it yet because the edit war wasn't about that» To tell the truth, I tried to rename it, but Reisio (who else), changed the name back. I am, in fact, going to propose a renaming of the image, in case this request for deletion fails.--TcfkaPanairjdde 13:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh eh eh, ELBorgo you rock!

Mhmm, I think renaming it Flag of Italy with Pantone textile colours.svg can be the solution. Resio got his flag, we got our clarification about the rendering method. --F l a n k e r 19:59, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I will gladly rename it if everyone's cool with this. My only concern is there still might be edit-warring over the things I listed above. Resio if your reading this, please comment. Rocket000 20:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

My sentiments can be found here and here. ¦ Reisio 20:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's go with the third option you proposed in the first link, delete the image.--TcfkaPanairjdde 21:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Reisio, please do not make assumptions of what others might hypothetically do. TcfkaPanairjdde, cut the sarcasm. Please, this is not helpful. As I said before, if you are not willing to work towards an agreement in this collaborative project, there are other means of ending the disruption, but neither of you will find that outcome to be in your interest. —LX (talk, contribs) 23:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Giggy conjectured that renaming the image would have resolved the issue, and after Rocket000 detailed why that wasn't necessarily the case, I merely gave an exaggerated example to bring it into stark relief. ¦ Reisio 00:27, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Any chance of a compromised rename? Like Image:Italian flag PMS 20060414.svg (don't know Italian)? Think of how to resolve this rather than having the all-or-nothing mindset. I know it's hard sometimes, but please check yourself that you're not just holding out to make a point, which both sides already have made pretty clearly. Rocket000 04:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with leaving it permanently protected as I originally uploaded it? — It's specific enough that it will never need editing. If you truly think there's a good reason to do otherwise, then do whatever you like… delete it or move it, just don't put my name on it if you do. ¦ Reisio 06:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of whether or not it should ever change, this is a wiki. We should only use page-protection when there's edit-warring, repeated vandalism, or with heavily used images. I'm generally against all indef protection, myself (at least in the gallery/image namespace). Reisio, I'm just trying help solve the issue. I know you feel you picked a perfectly ok name for the image, however, don't look at it like that. This isn't a matter of what's the "best" name as we all found out we can't agree; this is about resolving this issue - compromising. Others have a problem with your name, and you have a problem with their name. Why not meet 'em in the middle? Let's put aside who's right and who's wrong and come up with a third option together. Is that too much to ask? Rocket000 06:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's too much to ask. This file was already a compromise, and it's named exactly what it is. ¦ Reisio 07:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok then, sorry for asking. I think I'll step back from this issue and let someone else try to resolve it :) Peace. Rocket000 08:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW, Keep (I think you know my reasons.) -Rocket000 08:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete I have seen arguments at three different projects. They are still discussing it at it.wp. Discussion of the image resulted in a block at en.wp from Reisio's inappropriate commentary. And I have seen the multiple talk pages that argue the correctness or incorrectness of the image. I even looked up Pantone colors and found a website that explicitly stated that the colors of the textile product would be different from those shown in the electronic medium. The official Pantone color of the middle band is named "bright white" which is coded as #F1F2F1 in hexadecimal color codings. All vector images of the Italian flag on the Commons have a white band. Reisio's is the only one that has an offwhite band. This offwhite band is the electronic equivalent of the Pantone color "Bright White" which I assume in real life is not an offwhite hue. Rocket000's examples above, Image:Flag of Italy.png, Image:Nuvola Italy flag.svg, and Image:Animated-Flag-Italy.gif are really bad analogies. The first is a png form of what has been updated at Image:Flag of Italy.svg (older revisions of the SVG image show the darker green and red bands). Image:Nuvola Italy flag.svg is drawn in a way that makes it appear the flag is waving and shadows are being cast, causing different shades. Image:Animated-Flag-Italy.gif is the same, but a gif and shows the hex white. There are arguments everywhere that this particular depiction of the Italian flag is not right. Why should the Commons host an inaccurate image?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 10:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not arguing anymore, but I do feel the need to point out why I listed those of images. Not as analogies of anything. The first one was to show other variations exist. And those other variations aren't being contest somehow. It's hypocritical to say there's only one "correct" interpretation and only say there's a problem with this particular version. The icon I just threw in to show it in a different form, like how the photo was used above. The last one was a joke about compromising since it alternated between white and gray. Just wanted to clarify. Rocket000 11:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand there are variations, but they are variations on the shades of red and green. It's hard to use the "shades" of white, because most turn grey or have some sort of colored tinge to them.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

So, it looks like it is a useless image, not used on any project, uncorrectly named (see the conversions from Pantone to RGB) and, most probably, uploaded to make a point. Are we going to delete it, as asked by several people, or not? --TcfkaPanairjdde 19:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete I read all the pages (a lot of discussion pages, of course) but, to conclude, this image is, simply, wrong: Reisio is the only one who say "grey grey!". I'm Italian, and my flag is not green-grey-red! --Yoruno 17:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete bah! (cit.) --Tanarus 15:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete I strongly feel this is completely wrong. --TcfkaPanairjdde 23:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete This bad copy of the Italian flag is useless and violates the dispositions of the Italian Constitution. That's all. --Mess 10:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete it seems to be only a crusade against Pantone --Vituzzu 14:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete (already voted) --F l a n k e r 17:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete (already voted but it seems that this is is another voting session). Not only is this flag incorrect: it is also useless: it seems to me that no page of the project uses it. So, should it be kept just in order to illustrate a point? It's totally not-wiki. --Vermondo 10:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems like someone's trying to make it that way... but it is used used. →Rocket°°° 16:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

It is always the same IP address, trying to insert it without discussion. --TcfkaPanairjdde 11:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete This flag is wrong, the central color should be white, and not gray. Definitely not our flag (I'm Italian). —the preceding unsigned comment was added by 79.17.222.67 (talk • contribs) 14:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, bad presentation of official flag —the preceding unsigned comment was added by Jossifresco (talk • contribs) 17:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Kept. Grow up, Deleteers before I upload an animated GIF of it in acid-trip colours. If you don't like it or it insults your national pride, don't look at it. Lewis Collard! (hai thar, wut u doin) 07:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)