Commons:Village pump/Archive/2006/11

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Village Pump archives
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Public Domain movies in Japan

Hello, I don't know if this question has been answered previously, so excuse me. In this news claims Japanese movies pre-1953 are Public Domain, so some movies by Kurosawa e.g. Rashomon would be Public Domain.

If this is true, how will affect about upload of videos or pictures? Can you legal experts explain the consequences about the court resolution? Thank you, Maldoror 21:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

We are currently using the terms that Films are exceptionally protected for 70 years after the publication, or in 70 years after the creation if the films are not published within 70 years of the creation (article 54). As stated by the court ruling, this cannot be applied retroactivly. So all films publiced from 2004 and onwards will have a protection of 70 years. For anything that was published before 1953, it would be Public Domain. Bryan 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Problem with upload

When I try to upload files, I've got this:

"." is not an allowed file format. See Commons:File types for more information.

Why? Is it problem name of the file (Viadukt Črni Kal1.jpg)? I have no problems with the name Image:IMG 3346.jpg!? --Andrejj 07:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Make sure you have an extension in the destination filename as well. The diacritic shouldn't be a problem, but if you still get this error, see if renaming the file makes the error go away. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Category names for religious buildings

While the discussion is still going on , as usul Lemon as starded to change things the way he has proposed; the discussione is not ended yet. I propose to change all the preposition in with the preposition of. --mac 12:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Katherine Carr (1886 - 1975)


could you have a look at this page please? I'm not really sure this woman is really famous ! I think it should be deleted, but I don't know exactly how to ask for it on Commons. So, I ask the Pump. THanx!--Sebb 10:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Does Commons have a rule allowing only galleries of famous people? I don't recall seeing it myself. Keep in mind that Commons is a repository for many projects, and non-famous people would be appropriate for a genealogy project, for instance. Stan Shebs 11:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
A reasonable resource for period fashion among other things, I'd have thought. Man vyi 12:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I wouldn't be happy with a "no historical photos of people who aren't famous" rule. Jkelly 17:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that's something to worry about (a genealogy project) - if there's really such a thing, they could always host their own photos, and for the time being it doesn't even exist yet. In my opinion, there might be a place for such photographs, but not as a separate page or category, only as part of some wider page or category. These pictures I do not see a use for, but if Man vyi finds them useful for the fashion of the period, I do not say no to his opinion either. However, they should then be in a page like Category:1930s fashion, not on Katherine Carr. - Andre Engels 07:58, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are those pictures tagged as GFDL? Descriptions only say from whose collection they come, but nothing about the photographers and no evidence that the photographers or their heirs released the images as GFDL. -- 22:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the speciality work of User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), who was banned for contributing this stuff en masse which does not fit the needs of any current Wikimedia project, essentially using Commons as his own little wiki-genealogy project, which is not really acceptable to me, or most people I believe. I moved some of his work to his userspace and deleted the main namespace RDRs, but there was rather a lot. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Yup. Richard originally just tagged the images he uploaded a s CC-BY or some such irrespective of where they came from. When I questioned that practice over at en: and asked for help, he got initially blocked for good (after having acted unresponsively). At en:, he later was unblocked again and is still contributing. Over there, he has now taken to even claim "© the Richard Arthur Norton archives" and licencing again under CC-BY! It's hogwash, but nobody seems to care, and I didn't follow it through.
It's somewhat unlikely that these images are really GFDL. They look like photos from a family album, and as such they would have been unpublished works, which are copyrighted until 70 years after the photographer's death or until 120 since their creation. Whether it makes sense to have such images at all is a different question altogether. Note that en:Katherine Carr is about some other person. Lupo 07:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Just checked his latest few uploads on en: Seem to be more or less fine, except for occasionally labelling LOC images that clearly are PD-old as "fair use" and similar minor things. Looks like he's more or less got it. But there may still be some problems in his older uploads. Lupo 07:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
On a related note: why is there still a redirect from Sarah Jane Carr to User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )/Sarah Jane Carr? Has commons a policy on cross-namespace redirects? Lupo 07:38, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
This was one of my cleanup projects a few months ago as well. I cut and copied all the text information into the discussion Talk page and tried to contact Norton about it all to no avail. I was told that it and other identical pages should be deleted from Wikipedia and I believe they were. I didnt put in a request for deletion on Commons as there is some minor genealogical and historical information as people have mentioned above. If you go into the photos you will see identical article information as well, some I deleted as innapropriate and duplicate. Norton has tons of these redirects as well. It is not a genealogy project of any note except for some of the articles in Wikipedia where the males of the family are notable and , as with this article, the (Victorian) females were not. My vote for delete if it comes to that. WayneRay 12:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)WayneRay
RDRs from the main namespace to userspace should not exist. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 15:45, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I thought so. There's tons more, just click through the blue links at Talk:Katherine_Carr (the first few go to non-redirs). Could you delete them? It makes no sense if I go through them to tag them as {{speedy}} and then someone else has to go through them again to actually delete them. That just duplicates the work :-( Lupo 21:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If the images can't be deleted because they are non-notable, perhaps they may be eligible for deletion because they do not have correct copyright information? --tomf688 (talk - email) 23:22, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, lets use all the tricks up our sleeves to delete what we don't like. Lets delete it because it doesn't belong in Wikicommons, and if that rationale doesn't work delete based on trumped up copyright violations. The copyright rights to historical family images belongs to whoever inherits the images. The images from the same family collections that were transferred to the Smithsonian now have a Smithsonian copyright; and the ones that went to the University of Texas now have a UofT copyright. Images I inherited and retained, I own the copyright, and the copyright starts when it is first published. Thus the cc-by-2.5 or GFDL at my choice, and also the reason for the "© Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) archives". You should not be changing my cc-by-2.5 to PD for images taken before 1923. This copright begins at publication, not when the image was captured on film. Also, the person who releases the shutter is not always the copyright holder. Images taken by salaried staff photographers for the New York Times belong to the New York Times, not the person who composes the picture or releases the shutter. Images taken by federal workers using government owned cameras during their work hours belong to the federal goverment, as are the FEMA images taken for the Katrina articles. Copyright to images in the Corbis collection belong to Corbis no matter who took the photo, and Corbis claims a defacto copyright unless proven that someone else has a prior claim of copyright. This is for all historical images collected by Bettman in his archive, now owned by Corbis.

Any remaining GFDL images of mine are being changed to cc-by-2.5 with the added copyright notice. Here is a question, two identical copies of a photo, one copy goes to the Smithsonian, one is retained by me. Who owns the copyright? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Names for Main Articles

What is the rule for the name of main articles of cities? Should they be in English or in the Native language. So far it seems that they can be in native language, so we can have a category such Cologne with the main article Koeln. Is this right? If yes, it's strange, because I supposed that the language should be english, so what is the reason for such decision? --mac 12:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This is an international project - so why should it be English? It is perfectly understandable that languages like Russian or Japanese should be transliterated somehow, but languages with latin letters (mainly) should be OK. --Nux (talk) 13:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't know of any issue with galleries being titled in languages other than English. Different galleries for different languages and redirects to a single gallery from different spellings are both used here. Jkelly 17:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Is it a good time to actually discuss some specific and detailed guidelines on Commons:Language policy? Zzyzx11 18:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I made the same question but the answer was: the language is english. So I waa forced to change Firenze to Florence, Torino to Turin, Toscana to Tuscany. Now I discover that not all agree with this standard. Is any discussion going on this subject? --mac 08:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I still would rather see original names for cities as I can usually find them in an encyclopedia and search by it. For an English version I would have to search in some geographical dictionary, which I don't have. I know I can use interwiki in most cases, but I belive it's not enough. --Nux (talk/dyskusja) 23:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC).

Noting licences on gallery captions

I've done this on a couple pages with botanical photos, and they were removed from one page yesterday. The reason I was adding them is because some licences are better than others for inclusion in wikibooks pages, because of the copyright issues involved when printing something out. Seems to me a lot easier to have these on the gallery page, rather than having to spend time opening up all the image files to make sure they're not GFDL. Is there any particular reason that licences shouldn't be on gallery pages? --SB_Johnny|talk|books 11:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not use Mediasearch with "no license copy" ticked (it will exclude images with licenses that require license copy with publication, such as GFDL)? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that would work well, because it relies on categories. A lot of images added to galleries are either uncategorised (except licence), de-catted (because for some reason people like to remove categories when they add things to galleries), placed into strange categories someone might not think to look under, or placed in such incredibly large categories that the search could become nearly meaningless.
Having them on the gallery page lets the user see all the pix that are relevant (hopefully!), and makes it easier to pick and choose according to preference (e.g., use a PD when possible, CC2.5 when there's no PD, grit one's teeth and use GFDL when there's no choice (or better yet load up another image using PD), etc.).
I suppose another alternative would be to just make a gallery subpage that lists by copyright (or even image quality, since it can be even more annoying to pageload a very large image on a slow connection only to find it's out of focus). But do subpages work on commons? --SB_Johnny|talk|books 13:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, apparently subpages aren't enabled. Is there a better naming convention for Pennisetum alopecuroides/Annotation‎? --SB_Johnny|talk|books 15:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Offtopic, but... SBJohnny, Can you point me to any Wikibooks licensing discussion regarding this matter? There seems to be a common bit of confusion in our community that each GFDL image requires it's own copy of the GFDL. This isn't the case, as a aggregation only needs to have one copy of the GFDL to cover all the included GFDL works... and since, as far as I know, the text of all of the Wikibooks is under the GFDL the addition of GFDL illustrations would add zero burden to a wikibook (in fact, because of the requirement to include the CC license URL, it could easily be argued that CC licensed illustrations increase the burden on a GFDLed wikibook). I'd just like to make sure that some hidden page isn't perpetuating this particular misunderstanding. --Gmaxwell 16:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting point. The point of using non-GFDL images is for cases where the textbook is being used for instructing a course where having a large image would be handy (e.g., large botanical photos for learning plant identification). But the CC licence just needs to be included on the back of the printed book for inline images, correct?
Currently the problem on wikibooks is less about images and more about what, exactly a GFDL document is (is a page a document? is a book a document? is a book a collection of documents? is a print version using only 1/2 the chapters of a book a document?). --SB_Johnny|talk|books 22:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I meant to respond to this more fully. It is ridiculous IMO to be afraid of using GFDL materials. Although it is a pain for isolated items in print, it is the basis of everything ever written in Wikipedia & Wikibooks. Gmaxwell is right that a printed book only needs only copy of the license to cover every different GFDLed part that the book contains.

Secondly I rather thought the primary aim of all the projects was to build material usable via the wiki, ie online, with print being a secondary option that should not be a first consideration. Maybe I'm wrong there, though.

Thirdly: licenses are metadata and I too will remove them any time I see them in a category. This problem can be solved one of two ways: (1) Using Mediasearch (note that it can also search subcategories, and also searches the images that are in galleries that are in those categories!), or (2) installing popups, and simply 'mouse over' any image you're interested in using, wait for the pop-up and then you can easily see what the license is. Please don't clutter up galleries with license information though. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 02:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify, by: Gmaxwell is right that a printed book only needs only copy of the license to cover every different GFDLed part that the book contains you mean it only needs one copy, or are you saying it needs one copy for every element? (And how would that by different from CC, etc.?)
Wikipedia is primarily used in its online form, but most wikibooks are intended for printing )this is part of why excessive wikilinking is discouraged in wikibooks).
licenses are metadata and I too will remove them any time I see them in a category... I assume you mean galleries, not categories. But what's wrong with metadata? Pretty much any caption or organisational structure in a gallery is metadata, used to help the user know what's in the picture. Metadata is a useful organisational tool for any gallery of thumbnails: allowing a description of the content and type of an image without having to open each image file (which can be rather time consuming), so that a user can get in, find the right image for their article, book, etc., and then get back to writing. Again, categories are weak... in the past I have added categories to images, only to have them later removed when someone adds them to a gallery and decats them or recats them into something entirely different. --SB_Johnny|talk|books 10:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, a collection of GFDL items only needs one copy of the GFDL to cover all of them. Please have a listen to the GFDL sometime, you should find it illuminating. It is written in a very minimally legalistic way.
I was not aware that Wikibooks put any special emphasis on printing aside from providing PDFs (do you have a policy links for this? I am interested in Wikibooks), but as the text is under GFDL anyway, it's a moot point.
For removing license metadata, oops, yes I meant category. Captions in galleries are obviously a great way of providing more information about an image, but I strongly don't believe that that information should be licensing information. As I said before... if you really think it's an issue... just use pop-ups. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Uh, listening to the GFDL isn't any better than reading it :). I'm suddenly liking the dual licensing a lot more now though. --SB_Johnny|talk|books 12:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Tags for pages that don't belong on Commons

I encountered this page, which obviously does not belong on commons. Do we have a specific tag for this kind of pages, or do I just have to tag it with {{speedy}}? Bryan 19:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

{{speedy}} --Gmaxwell 19:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
{{speedy}} and put {{pagename}} on the author's talk page. Alphax (talk) 02:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Content from

I have got premission from webmaster of this site for taking text and images under GFDL licence. Premission is on sr. Wiki page. There are many interesting pictures of Zoran Đinđić. Can I constantly put images here from there whit category "Zoran Đinđić" under GFDL? --Pokrajac 19:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes you can. Just specify the source and permission at each page. Bryan 20:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Will be good idea to create special template (and include {{GFDL}} from it) and put all license correspondence on its talk page. See {{}} as example. --EugeneZelenko 15:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


License of materials by US Federal worker/teachers ?

Hello, I try to argu with my teachers, at the University of en:Bordeaux, France, that they can contribute to wikipedia, and can put their work under Free Creative commons Licenses. I need some clarification about the USA système :

1/ One commons users said one time that "materials made by US Federal workers in their duty" is de facto on Public Domain. Is it right ?
2/ so, for USA Teachers ? : USA teachers make their courses automaticaly in Public domain. One of my french teacher said to me that only 3 universities in USA do such that, is it true ? Or All universities work in PD license.

All explanations are welcome, if you have official link that's wonderful. Yug (talk) 00:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Works of U.S. Federal Government employees (NOT local- or individual state-level governments; ONLY the federal government), made as a part of their official duties, are in the public domain. Works by teachers/professors are not in the public domain, at least by default. --tomf688 (talk - email) 04:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
As clarfication, that's because teachers are not Federal employees. 14:37, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Russian Copyright Law issues

I have a question about Russian Copyright Law statements.

Russian Copyright Act (Russian: Закон N 5351-1 "Об авторском праве и смежных правах" от 9 июля 1993 года в редакции Федеральных законов от 19.07.1995 N 110-ФЗ, от 20.07.2004 N 72-ФЗ) in its 5th article states that:

Статья 5. Сфера действия авторского права.

1. Авторское право:

1) распространяется на произведения, обнародованные на территории Российской Федерации или необнародованные, но находящиеся в какой-либо объективной форме на территории Российской Федерации, и признается за авторами (их правопреемниками) независимо от их гражданства;

2) распространяется на произведения, обнародованные за пределами территории Российской Федерации или необнародованные, но находящиеся в какой-либо объективной форме за пределами территории Российской Федерации, и признается за авторами, являющимися гражданами Российской Федерации (их правопреемниками);

3) распространяется на произведения, обнародованные за пределами территории Российской Федерации или необнародованные, но находящиеся в какой-либо объективной форме за пределами территории Российской Федерации, и признается на территории Российской Федерации за авторами (их правопреемниками) - гражданами других государств в соответствии с международными договорами Российской Федерации.

2. Произведение также считается впервые опубликованным в Российской Федерации, если в течение 30 дней после даты первого опубликования за пределами Российской Федерации оно было опубликовано на территории Российской Федерации.

In English (my translation, sorry for possibly poor English):

Article 5. Intellectual property rights incidence.

1. Intellectual property rights:

1) covers works promulgated in the Russian Federation, or works unpromulgated but situated in the Russian Federation in any objective form; the authors of those works (or their legal successors) are recognized as authors irrespective of their citizenship;

2) covers works promulgated outside the Russian Federation, or works unpromulgated but situated outside the Russian Federation in any objective form if their authors (or their legal successors) are Russian citizens;

3) covers works promulgated outside the Russian Federation, or works unpromulgated but situated outside the Russian Federation in any objective form if their authors (or their legal successors) are citizens of the other states (other than Russia) according to International Treaties of the Russian Federation.

2. A work is also considered promulgated in the Russian Federation for the first time if it was promulgated in the Russian Federation during 30 days after first promulgation outside of the Russian Federation.

Also, there are several terms in Russian Copyright Act (I'll call it R.C.A. below). The rights released here (on Commons) under GFDL, PD or CC-BY are called "имущественные права" (rights of property or property rights). All the rights are listed in the paragraph 2 of the article 16 of R.C.A., one of them is the right for informing ("право на доведение до всеобщего сведения"), it's the right for publishing author's work in Internet and other places in such a way as to anyone will be able to access the work interactively. Using this right the author can publish his/her work here.

Also there are following rights in the par. 2 of art.16:

  • right of reproduction ("право на воспроизведение")
  • distribution right ("право на распространение")
  • right of importing ("право на импорт")
  • right of public demonstration ("право на публичный показ")
  • right of public performance ("право на публичное исполнение")
  • right of putting on the air ("право на передачу в эфир")
  • right of cablecasting ("право на сообщение для всеобщего сведения по кабелю")
  • right of translation ("право на перевод")
  • right of arrangement ("право на аранжировку")
  • right of remaking ("право на переработку")

According to paragraph 1 of the article 16 of the R.C.A. the author originally has exclusively all the rights listed above.

The author can transfer his rights of property to anyone... BUT according to paragraph 1 of article 30 of the R.C.A. the rights can be transferred only under so called author's contract ("авторский договор") and according to paragraph 1 of article 32 it must be only in written form.

According to article 31 of the R.C.A. written contract must provide following statements:

  • specific rights for transferring (default: no rights), rights must be directly listed
  • period for rights transferring (default: 5 years)
  • territory for rights transferring (default: only territory of the Russian Federation)
  • amount of author's bonus.

Moreover, the author's bonus cannot be zero. According to paragraph 3 of the article 31 there are minimal author's fee rates determinated by Government of Russian Federation.

According to the general rule of Russian Civil Code (and also paragraph 7 of the article 31 of the R.C.A.) any contract that does not meet requirements of Russian Law is null and void.

Also, according R.C.A. the author can not publish his work in public domain, in GFDL or CC-BY. Oh, of course, he can promise that he will never claim rights, but such promise is invalid (it is null and void).

Well... Let's imagine several situations:

  • An author is not a Russian citizen, and he/she takes a photo of smth. and uploads it here
    If that's the case the author can:
    1. leave the photo in any objective form (e.g., photo printed on the paper) in the Russia and according to 1. 1) of article 5 of R.C.A. his work is under the protection of R.C.A.
    2. promulgate the photo in any form (e.g., publish the photo in any Russian magazine or on any Russian site) and then upload it here.
  • An author is a Russian citizen, and he/she takes a photo of smth. and uploads it here.
    If that's the case Russian citizen can simply promulgate his photo even after uploading it here (see paragraph 2 of article 5 of R.C.A.) if he promulgates it during 30 days after uploading here.

Then, if anybody takes the photo from Commons and use it for any purposes (especially for commercial purposes) in Russia (or in any state that has International Treaty with Russian Federation in the area of copyrights, there are the USA too) the author can bring an action and according R.C.A. he will win a case because he can say "I did not conclude an author's treaty in written form with him! I did not transfer any rights to him directly listing them!" and he will be right.

How can we deal with this situation? I don't want that Commons will not have works that are made by Russian citizens or published firstly in Russia, but we must make secure our users againt any possibly legal actions... --Jaroslavleff 17:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Comments (Russian Copyright Law Issues)

We have nearly the same problems in France. We have to pray that some day the law makers will recognize that the values of free culture are good and worth researching ways to make laws free-culture-friendly... Teofilo 00:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you. But at present do we have to delete all works uploaded by Russian citizens or not? --Jaroslavleff 05:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm NOT A RUSSIAN!!!!!!! So how you gonna delete my articles? Even I use russian language, it does not mean that I am russian or russian citizen
I've just been born in USSR, so I use russian language, and write articles for all people who speaks russian! If I were born in China I would be writing articel fror people who speaks chinese! So I STRICTLY DISAGEREE WITH DELETING ARTCILE FROM THAT WERE WRITTEN BY PEOPLE WHO A NOT RUSSIAN CITIZENS!!!!!!
Oh, emotions... It's not good. BTW I think Kazakhstan laws are nearly the same. --Jaroslavleff 06:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Usually, the author did not transfer any rights to Wikipedia, he just license his image under specific terms. If I have a book, I may charge money for reading it, I can also allow my friends to read it for free, I can also promise to give it to everybody i for free. The same is here Alex Bakharev 06:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

That "he just license" is legally called "he transferred (non-)exclusive rights of property", which must be done only in form of written author's contract.
E.g., news agency often take images from here for its news illustrations. Russian author always can bring an action saying he was not transfer rights of informing ("право на доведение до всеобщего сведения") to and therefore violated author's copyrights. Any promise is legally null and void. --Jaroslavleff 07:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
why do you not start from ? why you are bothering wiki-authours?

Quote from *: «[Copyright] paranoia is bad because it supports the existing intellectual property regime in all its perverted variants. Certainly we should not endorse a laissez-faire attitude vis-a-vis copyright violations; however, we should be liberal in our interpretations of what we are allowed to do, and certainly not take any and every copyright claim at face value. Our projects provide a framework and reference for others who will ask themselves similar questions, and we should not contribute to further tightening the noose that copyright has become. --Eloquence 03:29 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)» — Monedula 07:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

This is for Wikipedia articles. Commons positions itself as repository of absolutely free images: anybody can take image/audio from Commons and he/she can be sure that there will not any legal action against him/her for any purpose, including commercial.
We cannot say this for images/audio/other works that are under the protection of Russian Copyright Act. --Jaroslavleff 09:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Just for the reference. Jaroslavleff initiated an edit war in Russian Wiki aimed against the publication of a particular photograph (I do not discuss here the quality of the picture, and whether it was appropriate to publish it). The conflict was highly emotional and reached the Arbitration Committee. Jaroslavleff threatened the Committee with raising the issue of Russian Copyright Law at Wiki/Commons, which, according to him, may lead to the closure of the whole Russian Wiki project. This threat was considered as an attmpt to blackmail the Committee. The case was soon resolved, and one of the results was that Jaroslavleff was deprived of his sysop flag. Now he simply puts his threat in action.

I leave the copyright issues to the law experts (and I do not think that they resolve the case in favour of Jaroslavleff), I just wish to underline that the reason to raise the issue here was hardly the care about the project. Alexei Kouprianov 08:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless we need to resolve all the issues of Russian Copyright laws. --Jaroslavleff 09:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Probably yes, but when an issue is raised by a person without good intentions, it will never be the case. ГорныйСинийАллах 10:23, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
We had a discussion about this already back in July; see Commons:Village_pump_archive-33#A_photo_shot_by_my_friend. Lupo 08:49, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes. --Jaroslavleff 09:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

<snip, snip> — removed off-topic personal attacks by ГорныйСинийАллах and an anon signing as Барнаул. Attacks and taunts and the like are generally counter-productive. If you want to flame, do so off-Wikipedia. Lupo 10:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Detailed Legal Response (Russian Copyright Law Issues)

Dear Vladislav!

The short answer to your question is that the issue is not that easy and the situation is not that bad. There's no need to remove articles and images created by the Russian authors.

As for the long answer, it may take a long. However, considering that the issue is important, I will try to do my best to answer as soon as possible.

First I will comment your message, and then I will describe general preconditions and conclusions. Russian Law is a continental one, and therefore court precedent is not as important as in the common law jurisdictions. Notwithstanding that, judicial practice is very important, so I will have to point to some related cases.

The Russian legal system is quite complex and powerful, despite it is not codified at the level that a tech buddy would expect. It is not enough to read the Copyright Act only to understand what is legal, what is non-punishable, and what is forbidden.

There are many details that should be taken in consideration. Many of these detail come from the Russian Civil Code, which may be found here.

Article 421 of the Russian Civil Code. The Freedom of The Contract. 2. The parties shall have the right to conclude a contract, both stipulated and not stipulated by the law or other legal acts.

This means that it is possible that the Russian court will find Russian Copyright Act not perfectly applicable to the case, considering that licensing is not covered by it.

There is the court ruling where alienation of the pledged intellectual work was found lawful.

Article 434 of the Russian Civil Code. The Form of the Contract. ... 3. The written form of the contract shall be considered as observed, if the written offer to conclude the contract has been accepted in the course stipulated by Clause 3 of Article 438 of the Code.

R.C.A. requires only written form of the contract. Civil Code (clause 1 of article 434) says that the contract must be in written form if law directly requires it. --Jaroslavleff 10:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the written form of the contract is what this Article 434 Clause 3 is about. What's your point? Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:17, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
My point is that:
According to article 160 the written form ("письменная форма") must be on the paper (for signing it by the hand). Yes, clause 2 of the article provide possibility for so-called electronic signing, but it is regulated by Electronic Digital Signature Act (ФЗ "Об электронно-цифровой подписи") and that act does not provide possibility of "signing" contract (or offer; or acceptance) by pressing button like "Submit" in the Commons upload form. --Jaroslavleff 11:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Article 434 overrides Article 160 in this case. (No doubt, Electronic Digital Signature shall not be applied in this case. It is not related.) It is not absolute clear whether the use of the GFDL'ed work shall constitute the Acceptance, but at least it is quite possible. I'd refer Infomational Letter of Presidium of the Supreme Arbitration Court of Russian Federattion N14 by 5.05.97 - Информационное письмо Президиума Высшего Арбитражного Суда РФ от 5 мая 1997 г. N 14 "Обзор практики разрешения споров, связанных с заключением, изменением и расторжением договоров":

5. Совершение конклюдентных действий может рассматриваться при определенных условиях как согласие на внесение изменений в договор, заключенный в письменной форме. ... Кассационная инстанция решение суда первой инстанции отменила, сославшись на пункт 3 статьи 434 Гражданского кодекса Российской Федерации, которым установлено, что письменная форма договора считается соблюденной, если письменное предложение заключить договор принято в порядке, предусмотренном пунктом 3 статьи 438 Кодекса.

Как следует из названного пункта статьи 438 Кодекса, совершение лицом, получившим оферту, действий по выполнению указанных в ней условий (уплата соответствующей суммы) считается акцептом, если иное не предусмотрено законом, иными правовыми актами или не указано в оферте. Так как иных оснований для непризнания действий арендатора акцептом не было, возражений по условиям арендной платы, предложенной арендодателем, не заявлено, действия товарищества должны расцениваться как его согласие на внесение изменений в договор аренды.

Brief translation:
Under certain circumstances implicative conduct shall be treated as the consent to modify the written contract. According to Clause 3 of Article 438 of the Code, if the party that have received the offer undertakes actions following the conditions specified in the offer, it shall be considered the acceptance, unless other is stated in the law, other legal acts, or the offer itself. (Important notice: it is the ruling of the cassational instance, that overruled the first instance ruling.)
And now the definitive quote from the GFDL comes:
"You accept the license if you copy, modify or distribute the work in a way requiring permission under copyright law." It is close to our case. The court ruling outcome is still a bit uncertain, but the situation seems to be favorable to us. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 15:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
But article 434 does not cancel requirement for signature at least in the offer. How can you prove that one signed GFDL as an offer when that one uploaded some work here? --Jaroslavleff 05:42, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Eaisly - just look in the history of the file. --Nux (talk)
 :)) History of the file is not a signature of author. --Jaroslavleff 04:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I mixed up two related yet different issue: the offer to the author and the offer to the user. As for the author-Wikipedia relations, the situation is even better: uploading of the materials should be considered as the implicative conduct. However, thank you for the discussion, the texts in the upload pages should be improved, and I will do this. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:16, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Article 438 of the Russian Civil Code. The Acceptance. ... 2. The absence of a response shall not be considered the acceptance, unless other follows from the law, business intercourse custom, or previous busines relations of the sides.

Considering that acceptance of the license by the use of the respective work may be considered as a business intercourse custom in this context, there should be no problems with the requirement of the written contract indeed. Our GFDL is definitely written.

According to article 435 ("Offer") offer must contain essence of the contract ("существенные условия"), they are listed above (period, territory, explicitly listed rights etc.). GFDL is in written form but it has no such conditions. Moreover, so-called "public domain" is not an offer!
Dear Vladislav, you're quite wrong. The GFDL is written by the well-educated lawyers, and it of course contains all necessary essentials. Just a quote from the very beginning of the GFDL: "Such a notice grants a world-wide, royalty-free license, unlimited in duration, to use that work under the conditions stated herein." Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
And what can you say about public domain and CC-BY? Especially about PD? --Jaroslavleff 11:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Unlike the GFDL, I didn't research situation with CC-BY thoroughly. But I have no doubts that it has no prolem of this kind either: "Subject to the terms and conditions of this License, Licensor hereby grants You a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual (for the duration of the applicable copyright) license to exercise the rights in the Work as stated below". As for the public domain, there are much more problems with it. Authors who release their works into Public Domain are considered some absent-minded geeks to be protected to the maximum extent. On the other hand, Public Domain means "the work is not protected by the Copyright Law", and claiming so is a challenge to the Law, that is not encouraged. :-) Ok, seriously, there's no such a concept (author's right to release his work into Public Domain) in the Russian Law, and the situation with the Public Domain claims is much worse and ruling outcome is much more uncertain. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 16:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
BTW GFDL, CC-BY and PD does not provide any sentences about author's bonus (royalties) which is required by R.C.A. and cannot be equal to zero (there are minimal rates determined by Decisions of Russian Government). --Jaroslavleff 10:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Just for your information, Government Regulation N218 by 21.03.94 and Government Regulation N524 by 29.05.98 definitely do not cover articles. As for the images, they are mentioned in the schedule, but in a very specific way: "fine art works, including photos, placed on the products of industry: 0.5% of the sale price". That is hardly applicable here. (References: Постановление правительства РФ от 21 марта 1994 г. N 218 "О минимальных ставках авторского вознаграждения за некоторые виды использования произведений литературы и искусства"; Постановление Правительства РФ от 29 мая 1998 г. N 524 "О минимальных ставках авторского вознаграждения авторам кинематографических произведений, производство (съёмка) которых осуществлено до 3 августа 1992 г." Quote: "Произведения изобразительного искусства, в том числе фото, на промышленных изделиях (сувенирах, предметах галантереи, текстильных и трикотажных изделиях и т.п.): 0,5 % отпускной цены.") Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:10, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

To be continued later... I have to work, WP is not the only my business. :-)

Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to note that use of "intellectual property" is absolutely unneeded and misleading. Let's use "copyright", "author's rights", but not "intellectual property", since we are talking about one particular aspect here. -- Paul Pogonyshev 10:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, ok, I don't like it either. I just supposed that "intellectual property" would be more clear for the reader than ambiguous "work". Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 10:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Ha-ha-ha. Intellectual property ("интеллектуальная собственность") is not the same as work ("произведение")! --Jaroslavleff 10:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Definitely it is not the same. So what? Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
"Произведение" is NOT "work" ! Please stop using such highly misleading translations. ГорныйСинийАллах 11:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
But the Russian legalese "Произведение" IS the English legalese "work"?! (At least as far as I know; but I hope I should know, considering that I dealt with dozens of licensing agreements and several disputes in different jurisdictions.) But what's exactly your point? Please advise! Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 11:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
How can you translate "произведение"? --Jaroslavleff 11:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Jaroslavleff started a discussion at the LJ:

Despite he asked a wrong question (and you know the joke: the lawyers are like dwarves - you get the answer you wish), I found a very interesting reply that might be useful in regards to another important issue: (author is Chivezik):

для таких, как Вы, президиум ВАС даже издал специальное информационное письмо № 67 от 21.01.02 г.: "Апелляционная инстанция решение отменила, сославшись на статьи 160 и 434 ГК РФ, по смыслу которых под документом, выражающим содержание заключаемой сделки, понимается не только единый документ, но и несколько взаимосвязанных документов, каждый из которых подписывается ее сторонами. В связи с этим отсутствуют основания для признания договора о залоге незаключенным только на том основании, что его условия определены в двух документах - в тексте самого договора о залоге и тексте кредитного договора, при наличии взаимных отсылок в этих документах. Апелляционная инстанция на основе анализа текстов кредитного договора и договора о залоге сделала правомерный вывод о согласовании сторонами всех существенных условий договора о залоге." ;)

Brief translation: Infomational Letter of Presidium of the Supreme Arbitration Court of Russian Federattion N67 by 21.01.02 - Информационное письмо Президиума Высшего Арбитражного Суда РФ от 21 января 2002 г. N 67 "Об обзоре практики рассмотрения арбитражными судами споров, связанных с применением норм о договоре залога и иных обеспечительных сделках с ценными бумагами" - Appellate istance ruled, that according to Article 160 and Article 434 of the Civil Code, a set of cross-referenced duly executed documents shall constitute the instrument that expresses terms and conditions of the deal.

It is very important for us, because the offer presented at Wikipedia is not represented in a single document, but in several hyperlinked ones. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all please describe why my question is wrong?
In the second place, see section below that GFDL and other licenses actually not an offer. --Jaroslavleff 05:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Consultation (Russian Copyright Law Issues)

I've asked a consultation in Russian communities (in LiveJournal) in communities ru_pravo, link to entry (pravo/право is Russian for law).

Almost all legal experts agreed with me. Especially this comment (link to comment):

спасибо за ссылку, любопытно было почитать)

но в целом там дискуссия в итоге пришла в правильному выводу - несмотря на то, что оферта может быть составлена в электронном виде, она должна быть подписана ЭЦП, а требования нашего ФЗ "Об ЭЦП" в такой ситуации вряд ли могут быть соблюдены. И кроме того, требование о возмездности авторского договора тут тоже не соблюдается.


Thank you for link, it was interesting.
On the whole, the discussion comed to right conclusion: Regardless of the fact that an offer can be in electronic form, it must be signed with Electronic Digital Signature (ЭЦП = электронная цифровая подпись, electronic digital signature), but requirements of Electronic Digital Signature Act (ФЗ "Об ЭЦП") cannot be complied in such a situation. And furthermore requirements for onerousness (i.e. author's bonus) of author's contract is not complied too.

--Jaroslavleff 07:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

This particular person didn't ever understand that discussion is not over yet, and he didn't realise what the issue is. You'd better explain the situation in more details there. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

And please notice, this question is not directly related to the problem. It doesn't matter too much if the offer is legaly binding for Wikimedia Foundation, but for the Author instead. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 09:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Why so {{PD-Soviet}} was deleted if it's not a problem of Wikimedia Foundation? --Jaroslavleff 04:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

GFDL and other licenses are not an offer in Russian Law

See comment here: link.

According to Russian Civil Code offer (оферта) must be done publicly (it's ok here) and be directed to limited circle. If anybody can download any work from here the license is not an offer. --Jaroslavleff 04:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

What's the problem if you offer it to all wikipedians and anyone else for which the picture fits? I doubt that image to be wished by thousends of people? ;-) Platonides 12:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
It will be not an offer legally ("оферта" in Russian law). --Jaroslavleff 15:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
If it's put under the GFDL, it is automatically offered to anyone (or at least, anyone willing to abide by the GFDL). - Andre Engels 07:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
GFDL is not an author's contract, offer etc. in Russian law. Saying "I publish this photo under GFDL" is legally null and void in Russia. --Jaroslavleff 09:40, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Dropbox text in French

Hi! I'd like to know I can propose another translation for the French license dropbox from the import page (hope I make myself clear here). The present text states "propre travail" for "own work", which is somewhat understandable, but (imho, of course) not very idiomatic. More generally speaking, I wonder how one can identify the underlying template beneath a mediawiki text. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 14:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jastrow! You most likely want to change MediaWiki:Licenses/fr. If you want to identify the corresponting message you can go to Special:Allmessages, or go to Commons:Help page maintenance/Wikimedia Commons interface for the internationalization of important wiki messages. --Matt314 15:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for these three links, I was indeed talking about MediaWiki:Licenses/fr. How does the it work? Do I just post my proposal (which is quite simple in that case, just replace "propre travail" par "œuvre personnelle") to the talk page? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 15:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I just replaced it --Matt314 17:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

how to save the old pictures

how to save the old pictures --

If you mean the ones in a history of a file then you can just right click on the date an choose "Save as..." --Nux (talk/dyskusja) 08:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


The ESA has the following copyright policy:

Copyright Notice

The ESA Portal Multimedia Gallery contains images and videos used throughout the ESA Portal. The images are offered in the Gallery in the highest resolution available.

Most images have been released publicly from ESA. You may use ESA images or videos for educational or informational purposes. The publicly released ESA images may be reproduced without fee, on the following conditions:

  • Credit ESA as the source of the images:
Examples: Photo: ESA; Photo: ESA/Cluster; Image: ESA/NASA - SOHO/LASCO
  • ESA images may not be used to state or imply the endorsement by ESA or any ESA employee of a commercial product, process or service, or used in any other manner that might mislead.
  • If an image includes an identifiable person, using that image for commercial purposes may infringe that person's right of privacy, and separate permission should be obtained from the individual.

If these images are to be used in advertising or any commercial promotion, layout and copy must be submitted to ESA beforehand for approval ( esaCP/ contact_us.html)

Some images contained in this Gallery have come from other sources, and this is indicated in the Copyright notice. For re-use of non-ESA images contact the designated authority.

Are those images allowed on Commons? Bryan 16:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not think so. The fact that permission is needed to use the images for commercial advertising and marketing purposes is a little too restrictive to be considered as free content. Zzyzx11 17:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Nope. These are noncommercial-use images. --tomf688 (talk - email) 15:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Bryan 21:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

These are noncommercial-use images. This is inexact. ESA allows commercial use for educational and informational purposes, e.g. encyclopedias. What it does not want is use in advertisements. Please read m:ESA images. David.Monniaux 12:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Technically these images are availabel for commercial use, but there is an additional requirement: the copyrightowner requires an audit of the context. Although borderline, I'd say we can allow these images, especially if no identifiable people are on the images. Also see: w:nl:Sjabloon:ESA-licentie. Siebrand 12:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Non-commercial is non-commercial. If it can't be used in advertisements, it can't be used on the Commons. Furthermore, if people have to have an audit performed on there work, that kind of defeats the purpose of the Commons being "free-use" material. --tomf688 (talk - email) 13:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It's about the interpretation here. The images are free for every use - I very much do disagree with the absolute label non-commercial - , but for some uses explicit permission of the copyrightholder is required. Like I say: a borderline case. Please also read m:ESA images. It's a good read. Siebrand 15:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • After some digging around, I found Template:ESA-multimedia, which is currently being used on a few images already here on Commons. Zzyzx11 15:16, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I think that as there is no connection from any license page to that template, we should assume it does not have any formal status here. It is used as a 'license' on one image. Siebrand 16:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I also found this. I believe we can use these on Commons. Do we have an appropriate license tag for these? Bryan 18:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

"The Wikimedia Commons only accepts free content, that is, images and other media files that can be used by anyone, for any purpose". Let's look at ESA image-use policy: "used in any ... manner that might mislead" = limitations on derivative work; "if these images are to be used in advertising or any commercial promotion, layout and copy must be submitted to ESA beforehand for approval" = limitations on commercial use. These are not images which can be "used by anyone, for any purpose", unfortunately. Certainly we would all like to see these images here, but it would conflict with the foundation principles of the Commons. --tomf688 (talk - email) 19:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
We actually have a number of images that cannot be used for any purposes, including logos of US government organizations (use for advertisements is prohibited without authorization) and portraits (in many countries, using somebody's image as an apparent endorsement of something, or in a misleading way, is prohibited). David.Monniaux 20:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The same goes for many, many country, province and municipality flags and coats of arms. This issue is important because I guess it determines where we draw the line. Siebrand 20:46, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
David, we permit images of people with the expectation that the photographer has obtained a suitable model release to permit that image to be used in accordance with the license they released the image under. Occasionally people have proposed creating a Wikimedia standard model release for our photographers, but no one has sat down and done it yet. So long as we have no model release, users of our content use it at their own peril in this regard. However, this reality does not mean that we desire such limitations. In my view we should reject all images where we KNOW there are problems with full usage as permitted by our allowed licenses. --Gmaxwell 16:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Model release will usually not be valid for any purpose. Try doing a pornographic collage with the head of somebody who agreed to a release of a specific photograph, they will sue you successfully. And I think it's unreasonable to expect that people sign releases valid for all such purposes. David.Monniaux 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Commercial releases used in the US do explicitly release for any purpose, and almost no one minds signing them. You are right that a misleading use such as pasting a persons head on porno wouldn't fly in court... but, in the US at least, that would have little to do with right of promotion or personal privacy, and everything to do with fraud and defamation... a release of such protection would be unconscionable. While I will not agree that right of promotion and model releases are outside the scope of our licensing efforts, I do agree that fraudulent and defamatory uses are outside of the scope of what we wish to enable.
Lets not beat around the bush: you're claiming that we can't accept some images which can't be used in advertising at all. We have explicitly rejected NC copyright licenses, so I see of no reason we should accept images where there are material use limitations. --Gmaxwell 05:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So what is the conclusion? Space Telescope images[1] are free for commons, but those under the ESA release[2] are not free? Sounds fair enough. Maybe it will inspire ESA to compete with NASA in the free content stakes. --InfantGorilla 17:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Read m:ESA images. The problem is really complex. David.Monniaux 01:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to come back to this, I find it really awkward that you cannot upload an image to commons because the copyright does not allow you to imply endorsement of the copyrightholder. The Space Telescope license is in fact similar to for example {{BSD}}, which would also not be allowed under this conditions. -- Bryan (talk to me) 17:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


Please $1 to upload files.
Vous devez être [{{fullurl:{{{2}}}|uselang={{{1}}}}} {{{2}}}]

See also : {{L}}

pour copier des fichiers sur le serveur.

Revenir à la page Accueil.

while MediaWiki:Uploadnologintext/fr displays correctly :

Please $1 to upload files.

Vous devez être connecté pour copier des fichiers sur le serveur.


Jmfayard 14:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. It was using template {{L2}} As the templates work on interface messages are a bit different, parameters were not given and showed broken. I substed it to work. Platonides 21:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

State Governor

Are images from the website of Utah's state governor free? I would ideally like to upload one of the pictures on this page but am not sure whether this is okay! PageantUpdater 10:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

No, you cannot use them. Images from employees of a state government of the US are usually not free. In this case you cannot use the pictures for commercial use nor can you create modifed versions [3]. On the page you mentioned it already says "Copyright © 2006 State of Utah - All rights reserved." --Matt314 10:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Most U.S. state governments do not release their works into the public domain. Write your governor and demand change. ;) --tomf688 (talk - email) 23:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

How to bulk upload

Ive made a bunch of SVG files. How to bulk upload them? -Magna (talk) 00:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

  • There is the Java tool, Commonist, see Commons:Tools/Commonist. I myself have not used it yet so I cannot tell you any specifics at this point. Zzyzx11 00:31, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No licenze... how

Just found out this image is without any license Image:Marzocco.jpg.. what do you usually have to do in these cases?--Sailko 00:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Add {{subst:nld}} to the image description and then notify the uploader. —JeremyA 01:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

How do I rename an image I uploaded?

I uploaded an image inadvertently named Reboiler.png when it should have been named Kettle Reboiler. How do I rename it? Or delete it and start over with uploading it? Thanks in advance for your help. Mbeychok 01:29, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately you need to reupload the image with a new name. After that write {{badname|new image name}} in the description of the old file. --Matt314 10:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia logo mosaic

We would like to announce the Wikimedia logo mosaic!!!


This mosaic is intended to commemorate the one millionth uploaded file at Wikimedia Commons. We chose the Wikimedia Foundation logo because it would be easy to represent well at a fairly coarse resolution, because it is a relatively simple image, and because it represents the Foundation itself.

The point of this mosaic is to visually represent the breadth of images that are available here at Commons. We picked a representative starting set but we need more images... That's where you come in!

Please edit this! Put your images in! See Wikimedia logo mosaic/ConstructionNotes for how to add your images.

++Lar: t/c 14:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC) (for User:pfctdayelise and User:Gmaxwell as well)

Instead of everyone changing images, why not list them on the color fields and have them random positioned? Or maybe using generic images instead of those good ones. If they're repeated, people won't know if the image they're replacing is still present anywhere else or not. Platonides 21:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I think part of the charm is to actaully choose and position an image. As discussed on the talk page, it COULD be randomly generated positioning. The gallerys have been broken up to show which images are originally used in the random placement. ++Lar: t/c 14:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Seems this one does not have any licence tags yet, donno which licence it belongs to. Anyway this is a great job that expressing the Wiki community is diversified. :) --Shinjiman 12:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not an image per se, it's a composite display of other images. Each other image has a license tag (or should!) and the display itself (since it's not an image, it's an article/gallery/main namespace page) by default has GFDL like everything else. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 14:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Are all the images on the mosaic GFDL or PD? If some of them were Cc-by-sa this assumption would break. Platonides 21:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
All of those mini pictures are almost like pixels to the big picture (mosaic). Plus the effort and creativity to create the mosaic is by far enough to make this a new work and so IMHO choosing the licence for this new work is up to its creators (which for gallery editing is GFDL). --Nux (talk/dyskusja) 19:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

That might be a nice idea, but I would have thought the mosaic would be a derivative image and so a breach of the Wikimedia logo copyright, as well as the Wikimedia visual identity guidelines. -- Solipsist 14:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

See Wikimedia logo mosaic/ConstructionNotes... this is blessed by Danny and I'm confident there is no issue here with either of those things. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 14:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it allowed to combine GFDL and CC-SA images? -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
In what way? display them together on the same page? I would certainly think so. I'll reassert. The images retain the copyright status they have individually. The arrangement of the images (the templates used, the text surrounding them, the artistic choices made as to where they go. etc) may well be separate work, but if it is, it is then GFDL. If it's not anything new, it has no license at all. There is no combination of GFDL and CC-SA together except inasmuch as people take screen captures of composites. If the screen captures are problematic, then they need to not be taken I guess, but I seee no problem (with the caveat that I am not a lawyer!!!) with the page itself and its reference to multiple images. If (Pfctdayelise or...) I had thought there was, we wouldn't have embarked, I expect. ++Lar: t/c 20:26, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The failure of image classification by articles

That seems unbelievable, but a few days ago, there was no page in Commons about the main river of Italy, the w:Po River. So, I found quickly 3 pictures to categorize in Category:Po River (17:58, 24 October 2006):

LocationPoRiver.PNG View of the Po from Turin.jpg Torino-Parco del Valentino-fiume Po.jpg. It demonstrates the failure of a classification system which prevents normal use of categorization, i. e. categorization which makes the most of the image features.

I assume that we have a lot of pictures regarding Po River in Commons, so we need the Category:Po River to gather these pictures. Notice that pages about bridges and waterfalls can also be categorized in river categories.

In previous talks in village pump, there was consensus about the expression don't remove categorization, don't delete categories (when images are added in a gallery). So, I fell that User:mac9 has a very unpleasant behaviour when he makes these changes:

  1. Category:Po River
  2. Image:LocationPoRiver.PNG
  3. Image:View of the Po from Turin.jpg
  4. Image:Torino-Parco del Valentino-fiume Po.jpg

Can I get some support to fight such behaviour? --Juiced lemon 11:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I see that there were some discussions about this in various places... I belive that if you have only three pictures in a category then a gallery would be enough, but if you would like to exclude some pictures (of low quality and such) then there should also be a category including excluded pictures (and all in the gallery). --Nux (talk) 14:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Your answer seems to me a contradictory one. Because, if I have only three pictures, the category is enough, and there is no need for a gallery. How do you explain the lack of any page about Po River until I created the Category:Po River? --Juiced lemon 16:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Explain? I don't know maybe Mac9 could explain that. If he simply deleted the cat when there is no gallery then I believe this is something that shouldn't be done. But I haven't even read any page that some consensus on a similar case were reached, so I can't really tell if it's for/against this consensus. --Nux (talk/dyskusja) 17:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Just wanted to say this: classification by categories can also fail. --BerndH 18:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
That's obvious, since half of the Commons files are badly categorized. This debat is about a basic difference in methods. My method consists in categorizing each file according to its features. The goal is to support the wikipedia projects, therefore categories have to be useful to write articles, or to browse in Commons.
So, we don't need a plan to bring files together. The principle is to make the most of the file features: a continuous improvement of the categorization which can be checked with the watchlists. Since removing significant categories from files is useless for Commons, we should consider that as an act of sabotage. --Juiced lemon 22:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I would strongly encourage everybody to add as much categories as possible, only though if they make sense. Unlike categories in the wikipedias they should even be used in a broader sense. If commons goes on to fail on the categorie topic nobody will be able to use it. Images that can't be found are useless. --Chrislb 11:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree that many categories are very badly organized. Galleries and categories each have their own advantages and disadvantages. For example, categories are slightly faster to create at upload (unless you work with commonist), but provide little organizing features to present images in an ordered way. Also, categories are more cumbersome to maintain~when names change, and they can not be redirected. So categories are fine if you are also willing to maintain them. If you are not, consider creating a gallery and adding that extra little touch for the visitors referred here from the wikis. TeunSpaans 07:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw, user:Juiced Lemon statement that there was concensus on the expression don't remove categorization, don't delete categories, when images are added to a gallery, is incorrect. TeunSpaans 08:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually User:Juiced Lemon statement is correct but its was result of no consensus on images being removed from categories, categories deleted(or hidden) and being placed solely into articles/galleries Gnangarra 09:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
In particular, we didn't find any valuable reason to remove categorization of media files when they are placed in galleries. People who want to continue that practice would explain why they have to do it.
I consider that most of Commons articles are useless, but I have not planned to destroy them. So, don't destroy the categorization system!
Answering to User:Chrislb, the media file categories have to match the file features; so categorization looks like a set of keywords, but it is very different because we cannot keep general categories (surcategorization). For each media file, we must determine both the smaller and the most complete set of categories. That's why I recommand, for example, to do not categorize a portrait image in occupation, birthyear, or deathyear categories, but to categorize it with the name of the person. --Juiced lemon 11:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks like we are gonna have this discussion all over again. You say that you are nog gonna destroy the galleries, but I read the opposite in the text above. 12:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
No. I said that there is no need for a gallery with 3 pictures like this, because these pictures were initially in Category:Po River and this category was emptied after that. However, I have no reasons to ask the deletion of articles which can be improved. --Juiced lemon 17:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I refered to the sentence: if you would like to exclude some pictures. That remark was not made by you, and didnt mention your name in relation with this. I regard the removal of pictures from galleries as much an unwanted act as you regard the removal of categories. The categories are a unsorted mass, galleries provide ample formatting opportunities.
Btw, I admire your diligence, you edited over 10 files to create an unordered category while you could have created a sorted gallery with fewer edits. Compage gallery and category. You called this topic The failure of image classification by articles, but the name The failure of image classification by categories would imho be much more appropriate. Categories certainly do have the advantage that you can specify one on upload, but when you want to save yourself some work, consider creating a gallery next time.
Just to prevent misunderstanding: In this case I disagree with the deletion of the category, it should have been kept.
Kind regards, TeunSpaans 19:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't edit these 10 pictures. This section title is provocative, but underlines that this is categorization which bring together media files, when there are initially scattered in the Commons data base.
Upload a media file don't grant you competence to properly categorize this file. Therefore, we need a team of skilled users to improve the categorization of files. Presently, I am processing the pictures in Category:Rivers: I have to edit each picture to remove [[Category:Rivers]], and at the same time, I add new categories without extra edits. It can be done very quickly, if you know the scheme for the categorization system to built. --Juiced lemon 09:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I see that user:Man vyi added the categories. OK, that means that user made 10 edits. So the compliments on diligence go to user:Man vyi. not to you ;-)
My point that 10+edits were needed to add them to the category remains valid, while the edit count for the gallery remains at 2. So your argument that categories bring media together better than galleries remains unfounded. Galleries are much more suited than categories to bring media together in a neat, presentable way with a minimum of effort.
Do you mind if I am provocative too and change the caption of this subject to The failure of image classification by categories. Much closer to the truth. ;-) TeunSpaans 19:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
For a moment I was wondering how come I had believed it to be of importance that images are categorized as well as put in galleries, because these certainly do have quite a list of advantages. And as for a moment I couldn't remember, I really had to think. Then the one very compelling reason recurred to me: Navigation. If I land on an image page from elsewhere (say I click on the third picture from the top in this article, and then follow the link to commons) and then want to look at related pictures, where (if I am somewhat familiar with wikipedia) do I look ? Presumambly I'm going to ignore the (to me) arcane information on the page, and scroll down to the bottom. If I don't see the category I'm looking for there, chances are I'm not going to bother after all. There is a Link to the gallery under Links of course, but I doubt most people would notice that without further ado. This alone seems to me to be reason enough to keep categories and galleries parallel to one another (and not delete categories on inclusion in galleries). Sean Heron 16:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. of course it would be ultra neat if the people following the category link then landed on the gallery page (which of course with seclusion is no problem to achieve in a certain way ), but that is another story altogether...

User Mac9 has the habit to delete ANY category from ANY pictures concerning Italian geography. I stumbled on this discussion after filing a complaint for vandalism against him: We are not discussing here about the best method for categorising images, we are talking about a user who removes ANY geographical info about Italy saying that "category pages ought not contain images, only text is allowed", but refuses to explain who and when decided it. I think we need an adm to give some warning to Mac9 about discontinuing his bad habit.
In my opinion both categories and galleries have pros and cons, so it it correct to use both, and to allow people to choose what best suits them case by case. But the point is here: are people allowed to destroy other people's work just because other people use the method they don't like best? --G.dallorto 14:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Modifying a copyright-free image

Image:ClintonMandela.jpg appears to need a little more saturation, which I can do on my computer. Is it acceptable/technically possible for me to replace it with an enhanced pic? Tony1 05:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is. You can relicense it under any license that is acceptable on commons, I would however recommend to keep the editted picture in PD. Bryan 10:23, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Images are free. You can modify them. But if you're uploading it with the same name make sure you did a good job and nobody is going to complain. Platonides 10:36, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Tony1 14:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Category names for religious buildings

The issue concerns standardization of the category names which are in the form: <religious building> in/of <country>. We find such categories in the following categories:

The irregular use of the two prepositions in and of is an embarrassment to properly categorize media files. So, I suggest to move the categories which form is of to the form in (like Category:Cathedrals of Germany to Category:Cathedrals in Germany)). The reason is that near all the building categories have the form in. For example:

Notice that the subcategories of Category:Religion by country have also the form in. Therefore, I don't know any the of special reason to keep the form of. Do you agree with my proposal? --Juiced lemon 15:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Consisticy (or however that word is written) is always important Bryan 15:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd preferer to mainteint the form of; I think it's more immediate for new comers and for this reason maybe it can last more as standard way to call categories for the future. --mac 08:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
The rules are here. My proposal is also coherent with en.wp use. We expect newcomers to respect the rules, not to follow their inspiration. Currently, both forms, in and of, are used for religious buildings categories. Could you explain why the in form would be “immediate” for Category:Synagogues by country, then the of form would be prefered for Category:Churches by country?
The present situation results from perpetrated mistakes. It's an embarrassment for experimented used as for newcomers, who cannot determine easily which is the most prevalent practice.
I am agree with you: it would be simple to rename all the categories with the in form (not only about religious buildings). But this would not be coherent with previous rulings and common practice. --Juiced lemon 11:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Doens't rules statue that is to prefer to use of insead of in? Maybe it's because I'm not english, but doesn't "shall" mean that is a possiblity and not a rule? --mac 11:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
The Commons rules are not very forthcoming. However, we have to use in for building categories because we use them to locate these buildings and not to specify their origin. Look at this bridge Porto3flat-cc-contr-oliv1002 edit2.jpg in Porto, on the Douro. Designed by the Belgian engineer, this metallic bridge is not a typical bridge of Portugal. More generally, a building can be taken apart and rebuilt in another place. We can think about Scottish castles, or Abu Simbel temples. Therefore, the preposition in, which en.wp uses for buildings categories, is also required according to Commons rules. --Juiced lemon 12:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Village Pump archival policy

  • I do not find the Index convenient. I was looking for the answers to my message posted on october 24th. There is no message dated october 24th in the index, leading me to believe that my message had been scrapped, without an answer. In the index it is dated "16:37, 25 October 2006". This date is not what I know, it is what I want to know. If you need to know the answer to your question before you can find it, what is the purpose of asking a question ?
  • By the same token, Commons:Village pump archive/2006Nov's Table of Contents also lacks clear date subtitles that would enable you to quickly find the message you are looking for.
  • Why "2006Nov" (Nov-ember I suppose) for messages posted in october ? Shouldn't that be "2006oct"?

Teofilo 14:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The archiving here is currently being done by Werdnabot an automated bot account operated by Werdna. AFAIK, the bot scans through the page and archives only the sections that have not had a new message for a particular length of time. The dates listed on the index is the timestamp of the last message in that particular discussion. Thus, "16:37, 25 October 2006" refers to last message left by Nilfanion [4] As for "2006Nov", it probably means the month when the bot actually archived the discussion, not when the messages were posted. Zzyzx11 16:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Are you sure we need that bot ? Why not go on archiving pages the usual way ? Has this new archival method been discussed ? Teofilo 16:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Manually archiving pages the usual way only works when there are users who are willing to do it on a regular basis, or else you get the Village Pump looking frequently as long as it was on 15 October. That is one of the primary reasons why Werdnabot was approved to be used as a bot. Of course, I wonder if the method in which the bot archives discussions could possibly be changed, if Werdna is able to make modifications to that bot. Zzyzx11 21:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
There are easier ways of automatically archiving discussion pages, without using a bot. See how we do on fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro, using a new subpage everyday, and agregating on the main page the last 6 days. The maintainance is fully automatic, using wiki syntax, mostly {{#time: . Here on Commons' Village Pump, we could use a new subpage every week and leave the last two or three weeks on the main page. You can find an example of discussion page using a new subpage every week, with a display of the last two weeks on fr:Wikipédia:Bulletin des administrateurs. The syntax, is very simple. You can find it by clicking on the edit tab, but I can copy it here as it is made only of these two lines :
{{Wikipédia:Bulletin des administrateurs/{{CURRENTYEAR}}/Semaine 
 {{Wikipédia:Bulletin des administrateurs/{{CURRENTYEAR}}/Semaine 
Teofilo 22:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
That doesn't work as well as Werdnabot because active but old discussions should be kept, while relatively recent but uncommented-on discussions are OK to go. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 06:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Active discussions that last more than a week or two #1 are rare #2 can be moved by hand. #3 Or you can simply open a new topic, with the title == topic (follow-up) == and you put a link to where the topic began, before adding your comment. #4 nobody prevents you from keeping talking on an "old" weekly page : it will not be displayed on the main village pump page, but the weekly page shows up in the participant's watchlists. #5 Bots lack transparency and are not in the wiki spirit. Where is the "edit tab" where I can change the bot's software ? Subjecting human beings to robots' whims is bad. Teofilo 09:41, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Teofilio, I didn't notice you offering your manual archiving services when this was discussed (many times) and the page was over 500kb long. Talk to User:Werdna about improving the index accessibility if you like, but I very much doubt there will be much support for changing the current system (where everything is automatic). pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't bite this newcomer, but ...

I don't quite know where to put this so that it gets seen. I could put it on the Talk page for the relevant categories, but I can't tell yet if they are as actively watched as a Wikipedia Talk page would be. Please feel free to move this message to a more appropriate place.

I occasionally have images where they would be relevant for anyone looking to illustrate an article about a Spanish-speaking country, or Spanish Wikipedia. I see a category called "Spanish language," but it seems to be ABOUT the Spanish language (e.g., maps of where it's spoken). As a specific example, I have a picture of a sign showing flavors of ice cream, in Spanish. It was taken in El Salvador, and I've classified it there, but it would work for an article about ice-cream parlors in any Spanish-speaking country or for a Spanish Wikipedia article on ice cream. I was thinking of making a category like "Signs by language," but there doesn't seem to be a more inclusive category to put the language side of that title. I would be interested in seeing suggestions of supercategories OR being directed to an existing category that's not so specialized that people won't go that far down the directory tree. Lawikitejana 19:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Category:Multilingualism? "Category:Signs by language used" would mirror Category:Maps by language used, I'd have thought. The lesser-used languages such as Category:Scottish Gaelic language for example, simply use the language cat:, as there's fewer signs around (but have a look at Category:Enameled street signs or shop signs writen in Walloon). Sounds like a good idea. Man vyi 13:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Is “used” really necessary? I think that Category:Signs by language is unambiguous. --Juiced lemon 17:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I really don't mind either way, but I'm not certain unsupported by is as unambiguous as all that for a multilingual usership. Man vyi 18:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


I uploaded a PNG map (Image:Serbia_mountain_ranges.png) which doesn't display in the appropriate article (en:Geography of Serbia) neither in Firefox nor in IE6. After a closer inspection, it turned out that the likely reason is that a 500x600 image is 700 kB big! As I get it, PNG format is preferred, however, the JPG of equal quality is mere 81 kB. Should I upload the JPG instead and mark the PNG as Template:Duplicate-author (which tag it was, please?). It's silly to have an image in "preferred format" which is nearly unusable. Duja 08:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I think something's broken at the moment. It shouldn't be that way, and you should be able to use a PNG, which won't have compression artefacts like a jpeg would. LX (talk, contribs) 09:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Still, download of a 700 kB image is a pain for a dial-up user for not much benefit. Duja 09:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia articles generally use thumbnail versions which will be much smaller. The problem at the moment, though, is that the servers are failing to generate those thumbnails for a lot of images. Also, the 700 KiB version was inefficiently compressed. The compression can be nondestructively improved to 500 KiB just by saving it with the Gimp or running it through pngcrush. LX (talk, contribs) 12:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I ended up uploading a much smaller 8-bit image. The problem in en:Geography of Serbia occurs iif the image size is set to exactly 200 px, while it appears on 199 or 201 px. According to the Murphy's law, I set it up to the 200 px and never suspected it was a culprit. Duja 07:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
200px is only special in that it is one of the default thumbnail sizes and is therefore generated by MediaWiki pretty much as soon as you upload it (I think?). Whereas 'odd' sizes like 199 are only generated on demand. The 200 one will eventually be fixed, when the software gets happy and the thumbnail regenerates correctly. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:38, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

'StubObject' not found

There seems to be a problem, if you use the 'Gallery' option on the user pages. It gives this error:

Fatal error: Class 'StubObject' not found in /home/daniel/MediaWiki-live/phase3/includes/GlobalFunctions.php on line 204

05-10-06 19:10 GunnarBach

I don't see the problem in my gallery, and also not in your gallery. – rotemlissTalk 18:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Help with image

Can someone please help with Image:Crocodylus acutus 09.jpg? The image does not display in small size, only when you click on it to download. Thanks!!!--Tomascastelazo 22:03, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Might be a bug: on firefox everything is fine (Firefox on IExplorer it fails (IE 7.0) Lycaon 22:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Search index update

According to Tim, the search index will now be updated about once every 2 days. Good news, huh? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Thumbnails don't appear

Hello, some of the images don't appear in thumbnail form in the categories. For example in Category:Bahá'í World Centre there are two images including Image:Haifa-pilgrim-house.jpg which don't appear. I've tried purging the image description page, but that doesn't fix the problem. Any suggestions? Thanks. -- Jeff3000 22:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Due to the large number of complaints about thumbnails recently, I'm sure it's one of MediaWiki's periodic hiccups. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
On the german wikipedia there is a collection of thumbs that don't work. Maybe that can help to find out the reason of the problem. -- AM 10:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Voting templates

Is there any reason the voting templates like {{support}} and {{oppose}} should be substed? I doubt it would be the server load (see Wikipedia:Don't worry about performance) but perhaps there are other reasons? --Eleassar (t/p) 13:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

My guess is that it's because templates used in talk comments can attract vandalism, that can be easily avoided by substitution. If the template is updated in future, you don't need the look of your vote to be updated. --InfantGorilla 14:19, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

English for Categories

I lerned that categories must be in English. But I still have a doubt which is the rule to have a good translation? Do I have to refer to the english version of wikipedia or to the language itself? I ask this because not always the english pages of wikipedia are trnalsated into englis. For example w:Palazzo Ducale di Mantova; it's not so evident but can be used as example. Shall we use this form or an eglish translation (maybe Mantua Ducal Palace or Ducal Palace of Mantua)? --mac 08:27, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

English is not static. The old practice was to translate the meaning of name into English or else "anglicise" it. I think much more recently, there is a trend towards using the native name (so Bombay became w:Mumbai). English Wikipedia has had and will probably continue to have lots of fights about this topic. On w:Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Use_English_words they say: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. I think this is good advice. On w:Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) they further explain, If you are talking about a person, country, town, movie or book, use the most commonly used English version of the name for the article, as you would find it in other encyclopedias and reference works. This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. On this page they also explain about changing usage (eg Torino vs Turin).
So, you could do all this hard work of research, or you could make life easy and do what en.wp has done. :) If there is no standard English translation already, I definitely would not try to create one. That will not be what people expect. But if one does exist (as Turin/Torino), whichever you choose, the most important thing in the end is that the redirects are also made. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:37, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This discussion gets me thinking about renaming Category:Soccer to Category:Football (soccer) so it is consistent with en:Category:Football (soccer). Zzyzx11 06:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


Though the image is uploaded, cf. [5], it doens't appear on it's page. How this can be fixed? --Eva K. Message 13:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is related to Bug 2888 where the software has periodic trouble generating thumbnails from a very high resolution image. Zzyzx11 00:50, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Where to turn to clear up a Copyright issue?

This image has been tagged because of a copyright problem. I am one of the Wikipedians editing the German article on the sling, where this image was used (I removed it as soon as I saw the copyright notice). Now, I have found the artist, who says the image is free. My questions:

  • What can he do to declare the image free?
  • Who can help him? Is there an administrator who helps artists?

Signed: ADAXL

The preferred way to request official clearance is to use a template from Commons:Email templates (or Commons:Emailvorlage) and send the response to -- Duesentrieb(?!) 00:23, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


I have quite a few plant photographs whos species I can not identify (not my area of expertise). Images like this and this. I'd rather identify them before uploading them (because of the inability to rename, and because I'd rather not freely release images which we won't even use)... I could ping the enwiki reference desk, but I was wondering if we had a more commons centric place for such questions? --Gmaxwell 20:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should try to ask at en:Portal:Biology (probably more people that could help watch its talk page) --Nux (talk/dyskusja) 22:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately we have many unidentified species already. :/ You can try pinging the users in the Tree of Life project for help.
I thought we had a specialised page for this, but now I can't find it, just lots of large unidentified categories... hm we need an identification drive! pfctdayelise (说什么?) 02:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
A commons reference desk seems like a handy thing to have, to evaluate before upload. My personal experience with plant photos is that completely random unidentified pictures are no longer especially useful - we already have images of almost all the genera that are found in cultivation, and so future useful photos need to either show a key characteristic for species/cultivar identification, or be from a known location. Stan Shebs 16:53, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
In the case of the examples I posted they are more attractive than informative (as I lack the expertise to take informative pictures of plants except by chance).. and as a result they would perhaps be more useful as generic images covering parts of plants or as generic plant family pictures. I do, however, usually have a half dozen pictures of anything I take a picture of.. and GPS referenced location and time for all my images. If it is possible it would be useful for someone would write a general guide on photographing plant species.. if such a resource existed I could perhaps get some more useful images. --Gmaxwell 05:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
You could also use de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Lebewesen/Bestimmung: Just click the link below the green thing on the yellow flower and insert the picture. --Flominator 15:18, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Systemic bias and coins

Since I'm not a very good reverter, I'm going to bring this up here. The Commons template {{NoCoins}} is a copy of the original one on the English Wikipedia. The purpose of both is to mark images that use "common knowledge" indicators of scale (Coins being far and away the most popular) which are far from being "common knowledge" to everyone. My dispute is with the assertion, implied by both the wording of the template and actions of editors of it, that only metric units should be shown as scale markings. To me, this seems rather foolish as it makes the resulting "correct" images with metric scales absolutely useless to huge swathes of people in the United States and other non-metric countries, the same as the non-"common knowledge" coins that this template (rightfully, IMAO) takes issue with. My attempted dual use system (Both SI and USCU) was reverted without reason. Is this the genuine feeling of the Commons, or are the better ways of writing what the template says? Thanx. 00:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC) (PS. I'm not regular here, so this may have been bitterly fought over and I wouldn't know it. An explanation if that's the case would be welcome.)

It doesn't actually say that SI must be used. The current wording, as reverted, is "Standard units such as SI/metric units should be used". To my mind, the "such as" adequately guides the user. Man vyi 09:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
True, however I'm also not certain why suggesting that USCUs as well is distasteful to some people. Maybe something more explicit, mentioning both systems as the most commonly used and hence most useful? Or something lower key, like "standard units of common use should be prefered for scale markings" ? 22:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


if it possible to get photo about "essure" .22:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Administrators and other languages

Is it correct that an administrator who does not know well other language takes delicate actions as delections? For example this one has already notices especially with Spanish speaker users and he continues doing as he was the most expert in the matter. Please, administrator does not mean that you can destroy the work of others with proud. Administrarors are not the owners of Wikimedia, they are doing a service, so do it with professionalism and respect for the work of others. If it does not work like this, the other users just go away and I think it would be not nice to see wikimedia made just by administrators or is it what you want? For me a good policy to be follow by administrators is that if you do not know well a language, let the word in such language manage only by the ones who can understand that language. If it is a language that has not a lot administrators, ask its users to give a hand. If it is a very small language, let´s try together (for this reason English is the main language of Commons). In the case of Spanish, there a lot of users, as it is one of the first languages of the world and Zirland does not know it, so, please, let the experts to manage it, please and do not damage what is correct. User:Albeiror24

Of course admins should be extremely careful in dealing with material written in a language they don't understand. I don't think anyone will argue with you there. In this specific case, I suggest you ask for help from a Spanish speaking admin on Commons:Café. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 07:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I assume, it is my turn to express... The complaint above reffers to incident first discussed on my talk page. The case is related to Image:Mainlogoupb.PNG.
This image was uploaded by Alveiror24 on Aug 26, 2006 05:57 under license "GFDL" with footnote "The copyright holder of this file allows anyone to use it for any purpose, provided that the photographic service of the Social Communication Department of the Universidad Pontificia Bolivariana is credited." (truly, I dont know, what license this was meant)
Later on Nov 5, 2006 22:31 image was labeled as "logo", which as fair use is not acceptable by Commons licensing policy and I deleted the image from Category:Against policy on Nov 6, 14:37. (Today I restored all edits for purpose of this complaint)
Albeiror24 contacted me on my talk page (link above) and placed there the letter in Spanish from University. Today I asked User:Chabacano for consultation on IRC channel #wikipedia-es. The transcript follows: Both users gave permission to publish the transcript
08:16 < Zirland> morning
08:19 < Zirland> I need you to see
08:20 < Zirland> please read the letter from university and tell me, if there is any permission
08:21 < Chabacano> Zirland, reading....
08:24 < Chabacano> Zirland, they do not specify the license of any image
08:27 < Chabacano> Zirland, they only said "about the images about the Campus, there are some in our webpage. On monday we will send you more images that we
                   do not have at this moment"
08:28 < Chabacano> Zirland, they say that they will send the logo and that you can find more images in the webpage, but they are not specifying any license,
                   or saying that they can be used on wikipedia, nor anything related
08:30 < Zirland> i am here
08:31 < Zirland> I will clarify... the image of logo was deleted from commons under "logo" (fair use) deletion rule
08:31 < Chabacano> Zirland, they are not aware of the license issue of commons. I guess that they do not know anything about Commons, GPL, creativecommons
                   or whatever
08:31 < Zirland> the uploader now complain, he has permission to use this image under license:
08:31 < Zirland> The copyright holder of this file allows anyone to use it for any purpose, provided that the photographic service and the Department of
                 Social Communication of the Universidad Pontificia Bolivariana, Medellín, Colombia, is credited.
08:32 < Zirland> ^
08:32 < Chabacano> they only said that the images are in the webpage, and that they can provide more if you ask. Nothing about free licenses :P
08:33 < Zirland> unless I am mistaken, the given license is false
08:33 < Zirland> is it?
08:33 < Chabacano> I think that they should explicitly say "I, representant of the UPB, release these images under license XXX"
08:34 < Chabacano> Zirland, they say... "about the images, you have some in our webpage" nothing more
08:35 < Chabacano> Zirland, you are right, they do not specify any license. Maybe they do if you ask. But, at the moment, they have not done it
08:36 < Zirland> Chabacano: can I cite you?
08:36 < Chabacano> Zirland, yes, why not
08:57 < Zirland> Chabacano: Can I publish part of transcript?
08:57 < Zirland> (I need your permission to do it)
08:57 < Chabacano> Zirland, yes, I can even sign a message if you want. What part of the transcript, by the way?
08:58 < Zirland> Chabacano: IRC transcript about the license
08:58 < Zirland> we spoke minutes ago
08:58 < Chabacano> ok, of course
08:58 < Chabacano> yes, yes
Even after this I haven't changed my mind about the deletion and I hereby claims I have to insist on the deletion of the image. For this reason, I mark this image as deletion candidate. --Zirland 08:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I confirm that I hold this conversation with Zirland on IRC. --Chabacano 08:13, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Category architecture--> Armistice Day

Hello everybody

If you make a request for war monuments, scores of uncategorized images turn up. Trying to categorize them correctly is a challenge since the categories themselves are quite chaotic. There is a category Memorial (plus sub-categories by countries), War memorials (idem), War Memorials (being redirected to the former), War memorial (actually a gallery whose ambition is to replace the preceding category, but without any subcategories), various independant monuments by country X (not subcategorized), scores of loose and/or redundant and poor images, etc.

Being both unwilling and unable to meddle in the creation and suppression of categories, I have submitted this problem to someone who seems to be a major prop of the Architecture project, but perhaps there are other people interested. I thought the 11th of November was a good day to do something.

What about : Root category Architecture --> public monuments -->war memorials-->1/by country (location) 2/by event commemorated.

In the meantime, the untended orphans may be categorized into War memorials, but the moment a subcategory is created for their home countries, they might feel happier there. I can do the donkey's work if anyone is interested in creating the correct category tree --Anne97432 10:24, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

And there's Category:Cenotaphs. Category:Military memorials and cemeteries somehow needs reorganization within the structure as many war memorials and peace memorials are not military. Man vyi 10:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
True. So perhaps it should be: Root category Architecture --> 1.1/ public monuments -->1.1.1/memorials--> memorial memorials--> country (location) event commemorated architectural genre.

Languages template

A while ago I proposed an easy to use language template, designed to standardise the from of such templates and make them easier to create. I have now revised the version making it easier to add languages to and use. Please can you make comments on it, any will be appreciated. Located at User:Lcarsdata/Sandbox 0.Usage is:


It can be used for any language and each is called by it's ISO-639-1 & ISO-639-2 code so everybody can understand it. Example of version for Main Page:


Thanks. Lcarsdata (Talk) 11:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Clean up help needed

Hello, I just found that (nearly) all of these images are not correctly licensed (no or wrong information, no or wrong author names, no or wrong dates, no or wrong sources, no history, no or mostly wrong licenses), see this page for details. As I'm currectly very busy, could someone give me a hand with revising the images? A sysop on en.wikipedia could be helpful, because the uploader took several images from there ... Thanks a lot. --Überraschungsbilder 09:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I started and came to Image:Penne.jpg where I didn't know what to do: Commons:Bad sources says no, Commons talk:Bad sources says yes, Commons:Stock.xchng images says no and Commons:Stock.xchng images/vote says yes again. We need clear positions on that one. PS: Meanwhile I uploaded two replacements: Image:Penne with sauce.jpg and Image:Penne closeup.jpg --Flominator 17:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
The odd restriction shown on Commons:Stock.xchng images was added to stock.xchng around the end of 2005. Image:Penne.jpg was taken from there and uploaded to en in April 2005, before image host imposed restrictions. The image restrictions set by the photographer on the image page or his profile page only say "There are no usage restrictions for this photo." But can anything be done if the original uploader took a thumbnail and not the full resolution version? I don't know if this one is worth the trouble though... --Para 17:56, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Well stockxchng had unacceptable restrictions prior to the last round of license change but they were argued to be non-binding because nothing gave SXC authority to act as an agent on the uploaders behalf and they also made it harder for both uploaders and downloaders to avoid seeing the text. In 2005 we complained to SXC that their licensing was too restrictive and personally non-enforceable and they responded by locking down the loopholes we found. Personally, I've always held the position that the SXC license has been enforceable.. and that any argument that it isn't could equally be made against the GFDLed user submitted content that we host. In any case, the reality is that a non-trivial number of the SXC authors want the license enforced (as evidenced from the notices we've received as well as the conversation on their forums) so no matter what our view on their license is, I believe we are ethically bound to follow it and thus bound to remove the content.
As far as the commons vote page goes, it's no longer binding because the late 2005 changes removed the loopholes which it was argued under..
I've made a couple of passes in the past to mass contact sxc copyright holders whos images we've used using the email interface on the site, but the SXC people are very aggressive about blocking anyone who does that, even when they operate at a slow rate.. so I've been unable to complete the work. Because many of the SXC users don't care or do want their work to be free, contacting them is an easy way to close the license issue and potentially bring in new commons contributors. --Gmaxwell 18:46, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Category:Flickr review needed

The backlog of Category:Flickr review needed is, so to say, enormous. And the problem probably is that it is impossible for the admins to review all those. So how about creating a bot that can do the dirty work for you? This bot would a) check through the category, b) would then search the image description for a link to flickr, c) use the flickr api to retrieve the license, and d) would properly tag the image. How about that? -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If you can make a bot for this task, do it! As there is no bot currently having humans reviewing, however slowly, is superior to nothing happening.--Nilfanion 19:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Talk to User:Para please, I thought he was working on this? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 07:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
People would have trouble trusting any single user (as was discussed earlier here and here), so I have not built a bot to tag images. I don't see the current administrator run process any different, especially since it's all manual and so much more prone to error.
What I have done though, is the steps b and c for all Commons images with a recognisable Flickr id, and compiled lists of the results in User:Para/Flickr. They could easily be used by a bot to tag the listed images. Currently they're useful with the "What links here" feature to see some licensing history. But whatever is done by anyone else than Flickr or the photographer, the reliability can be questioned. I can't think of any other solution than mailing each photographer on Flickr, but with the 21000 Flickr images we have here from roughly 4000 different people, I don't think Flickr admins would appreciate. --Para 15:44, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I have completed the first test run, and some results are here: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]. Also a small log can be found here. Those are not posted to the commons however. I will apply for a bot status later in the evening after some more tests. -- Bryan (talk to me) 15:35, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Back a few steps to a more general observation - why the admin requirement at all? Personally I reviewed a few of these images, and I'm not an Admin here... Are we assuming bad-faith edits from non-admin's? Thanks/wangi 16:27, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

No I think it is to avoid unknown newcomers to start tagging those. But I think that no one would really object if an experienced non admin would review them. -- Bryan (talk to me) 17:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Changing the name of an image

Hi, today I uploaded my first image on common. In the form, I gave the name I wanted, but the image has been uploaded with it's original name (DSFXXXX.jpg). Can somebody change the name of that image? Or should it be deleted and re-created? The name for the image should be "PlayaElAgua_(Margarita-VEN).jpg"). Here the image: [11]. Thanx! DennisITA 08:50, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry... I found the solution right here above.. the preceding unsigned comment is by DennisITA (talk • contribs)
Deleted. Alphax (talk) 08:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Changing the author name of pictures

User:The American Eagle of LA has just changed the author name of many pictures uploaded by User:Forrest Gump (last contribution: 14:02, 3 September 2006). How can we check that is the same person? --Juiced lemon 18:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

First ask politely, then ask some Commons:Administrator with Checkuser rights. -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Users are confirmed to be the same. [12] -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)


Don't know if these contribs need to be looked at, but User:PixAile is, IMHO, pushing the limit. Watermarking in general is not good (may even be against commons rules), but the likes of Image:PixAile9.jpg is a joke - most especially when it is being edited into the commemorative mosaic by the user. SFC9394 17:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think that was me adding it to the mosaic - it being predominantly blue and the right ratio. Man vyi 19:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I would probably lean towards removing it, as it is blatantly promoting a website, not in the spirit of what the mosaic is supposed to represent. On the wider point of watermarking, Commons:Manipulating meta data states "Visible tags or watermarks inside images are strongly discouraged at Wikimedia Commons" - someone who speaks French should probably make the user aware of this as the watermarks are large and obtrusive; and the file names are non descriptive and spammy. SFC9394 20:06, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. This seems like spam and/or advertising, which is not what the Commons is supposed to be. --tomf688 (talk - email) 20:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm leaving him a message. le Korrigan bla 23:09, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Be nice.. the only place the image is used is on the users userpage. The uploader didn't add it to the mosaic himself and I don't see any problem with someone plugging their website on their userpage, esp in an image, so long as they are otherwise contributing. --Gmaxwell 05:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Sine the image being in the mosaic is contentious, I've replaced it myself. Man vyi 08:27, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I had a chat with him by e-mail. Basically, he is against removing the marking from his pictures as he is a professional photographer etc., but for Image:PixAile9.jpg, it was only intended for his personal user page. I have told him to re-upload it on the French Wikipedia, so if an admin wants to delete this one, he can (though it is not mandatory). The rest of the markings seem acceptable to me, especially as we get wonderful pictures like this one or that one. (I've also told him to name them correctly :-)) le Korrigan bla 14:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
However given their choice of licence anyone is free to crop off the "watermark" text... Thanks/wangi 18:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi to all of you and sorry to have make so a mess... by lack of experience on this Wiki concept for wich I'm not used to. I'm PixAile and the pixAile9 pic was aimed to illustrate my personal userpage and only that, nothing else. I just cropped off this pic from my userpage this afternoon, and you can cropp it off Commons right now (i just understood I can't do it myself...).

Thinking about all that, I change my mind : for the future, I decide to stop giving pics to Commons if there is no watermark included, at least for my best ones, and replace them by simple links... much more easy to put in. Thank you and forgive my beginner's mistake. Pierre Mairé, aerial photograph (I don't give you my website again... :-)

There's nothing wrong with a link to your site on the image page (I do it on mine), it's just people tend to dislike the text on the photo... You've also got to be careful about the licence you pick - with the photos you've uploaded already anyone is free to make derivatives - and that can include cropping off the text/watermark. Thanks/wangi 22:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thumbnail generation problem

Thumbnails for my 10000 pixel wide, 10MB Mandelbrot set image are not displayed correctly. I have read that this problem has affected other users. I have seen larger images on Commons, both in terms of file size and number of pixels, and the thumbnails were displayed correctly; but those were jpeg files. So probably the failure is due to the png file format. What should I do: change to jpeg (but it does not give good results in my case), downscale the image, re-upload the same image, or just wait for the thumbnails to be generated correctly...? --BernardH 06:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The file doesn't even display correctly in my browser. I'm not surprised that the thumbnail isn't generating; ImageMagick has only been allocated 12MB of memory to deal with it, and Firefox ended up using about 300MB before I killed it. It could be that the file's just too big... Alphax (talk) 08:53, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
You mean Imagemagick is used for thumbnail generation with a memory limit of 12MB? This seems low to me. Does ImageMagick keep all the uncompressed image in memory? In this case any image above 2000x2000 would fail... And what about the larger images: Orion Nebula - Hubble 2006 mosaic 18000.jpg Earthlights dmsp.jpg Whole world - land and oceans 12000.jpg ? On a side note, if you had to kill you firefox, is it because you have less than 300MB RAM? I was thinking that, since 10000x8000*3 = 240M, the image could display even with 256MB RAM, albeit with difficulty. --BernardH 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
From what I've read on wikitech-l, yes. And I have only 256MB RAM, and my OS and other programs use some. Alphax (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The thumbnail now displays correctly for me. But I'm getting confused. The generated html code still has a link to the original 10000 pixel wide image:
<img src=""
which probably means that the image is downscaled by the user. I don't know why it didn't work before for me (I was seeing a blank, zero-height thumbnail with Mozilla), why it works now, and whether it "works" for others. But if any user attempting to download the thumbnail is in fact downloading the original, it is really bad. I fear I am slowing everybody's browser :(. In contrast, other thumbnails point to an already downscaled version:
<img src=""
--BernardH 16:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Likewise. I'm using a machine with 1GB RAM, 2GB swap to view it though :) However I'm slightly worried that it's serving the 10MB file instead of a 100kB thumbnail... Alphax (talk) 02:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the thumbnail from this page. Also, I have observed the same probems with a 5000x4000 version, but not with a 2500x2000 version. --BernardH 02:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


The file name says that it's apple tree, but categorized as cherry. Is this apple or cherry? --PuzzletChung 10:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on the branch structure I'd say cherry, but without seeing the leaves it's hard to tell. Alphax (talk) 11:21, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
It's definitely a cherry tree, and the German description states "cherry tree in bloom". The blossoms are evidently cherry blossoms. —Nightstallion (?) 12:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The German description was changed later by someone else, though. It's clear the uploader believed it was an apple tree. Why don't we just split the difference and call it a plum tree? —Angr 06:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Category Vs Article : Help

Hi, there something I can't figure with Commons. We've got articles and categories, but sometimes we've got a category and an article which have exactly the same objet. In those case should we keep the catergory, or the article? Take Category:Epicurus, do we need this kind of category when he have also an article Epicurus?

I searched on Commons how others people did, but it's not that clear. Sometimes there's no article, but the name redirects towards a category (e.g Arthur Rimbaud), sometimes there's only an article (e.g René Descartes), and some others there's both category and article (see the Epicurus case)...This is messy. The problem seems to concern only category and article about people. When do we need a category about someone? Should we have a category by person or not?

This involves another question : how to categorise an image, like Image:Epicurus Louvre.jpg? I understand why it could be classed in a category like PD-Art, or Self-published work, but I don't think the image itself could be classed at "Greek philosophers". An article about someone could be categorise that way, but a picture? I talked to an user about that on the french wikipedia : he told me "Yeah, that's an interesting idea, but how to find easily an picture about someone if it's not categorised in a category about this person?". I answered er...don't know.

Could someone help me and explain me the official policy? I got two main questions : should we have a category for each person? and how should we categorise a picture about someone if not with a category devote to him? Thanks Sh@ry tales 17:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

We have no official policies about when to use categories and when to use galleries. If you ask 10 different people they will give you 10 different sets of advice. Since users all have different preferences about this matter, we decided to let them use whichever they prefer -- as long as they use at least one.
When do we need a category about someone? Whenever there's enough files to warrant its own category. This also depends on how files are likely to be added in the future. For philosophers who are long dead, I can imagine there are lots of potential files. So I think they can easily have their own category. I see Category:Epicurus has some files, so, no worries.
Is it OK? It's better to ask specific concrete questions rather than hypotheticals, hypotheticals are messy :P --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 03:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Ahaha no official policy. This explain everything. Thanks a lot. In fact I was originally chatting about "what is Commons's policy?" on the French wiki, so it wasn't that hypothetical in the debate (French have policies about nearly everything, so they tend to search where's a policy even when there isn't :D) Sh@ry tales 07:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Images to be deleted; is there an administrator here?

I have received an e-mail on OTRS by the author of several images, Jacques Hoden, Kachina Images. He wants to delete them because they are under copyright:

Thanks a lot. Céréales Killer 16:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I need the OTRS ticket number, I also need to know a few other things.. What of the other pictures uploaded by this person [13]? Is it being claimed that the uploader falsly implied that he was the copyright holder or is the person complaining also the uploader and has simply changed his mind/misunderstood our terms? I looked for you in the OTRS channel in IRC, but you weren't around. In the future be sure to mention the ticket number so I can get someone else to answer such questions. :) --Gmaxwell 16:25, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The ticket number is "2006111210010292" and the link is [14]. The images were uploaded without authorization by the owner, an infringement of the owner's copyright. Cary "Bastiqe" Bass demandez 16:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Merci :) Céréales Killer 17:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Unable to purge an image

I cannot make the new version of Image:CSX Appalachian Division.svg, with the border and transparency removed, appear. Please assist. --NE2 01:30, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Fixed (the procedure is described in COM:FAQ under Why is the old picture and not the new uploaded picture on my screen? - I think it's changed a bit recently, or else I never knew the correct procedure before ;)). pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Keep in mind that it still won't work on some images which have non-ascii characters in them. If you encounter one of them feel free to nag Tim. ;) --Gmaxwell 02:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Image from

There are some images added from the website of], like Image:Dog licking nose.jpg. Copyright of the website is available here. On the english wikipedia, one template, w:Template:sxc-warning, has been created for the images which are uploaded from this website. One template for these kind of images could be created on commons too. Regards, Shyam (T/C) 10:50, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

See Commons:Stock.xchng images. These images are not allowed on Wikimedia commons. Alphax (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted Image:Dog licking nose.jpg accordingly. —Angr 13:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The image was uploaded to en in October 2004, and later moved here. Our policy says that "Images from SXC prior to 29. December 2005 will be decided upon later." I haven't seen any discussion on what to do with the whole of them. Why is this being done one by one? --Para 13:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I've restored it. I'll ask Gmaxwell what's going on. Alphax (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) What we should do for all of them is contact the SXC uploaders. I tried to do it myself, but the SXC site operators block you after a few contacts from one account. The SXC license has always had unacceptable terms, but there was a loophole which made them potentially unenforceable. Commons had voted that because of this loophole that we could ignore the license (okay) and treat them like PD images (huh?). That position has changed since the terms were changed to close the loophole. Since we know that some of the users of the site have always intended the terms to be followed (loophole or not), I think its just best if we contact them.
On enwiki we jettisoned thousands of SXC images without issue. I've undeleted the sxc-warning template on commons, it might make sense to edit it to match our most current view on the subject, though I think it would be prudent for any future version to still advocate contacting the copyright holders. If we can get a notice we agree on, I can mass apply the note.--Gmaxwell 13:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

E-mail notification has been enabled

Brion turned on the e-mail notification, so it is possible to receive an e-mail when your talk page is changed [15]. To activate the feature, go to your preferences an check "E-mail me when my user talk page is changed". This change also alters the bahavior of the history pages (it shows a green "updated since my last visit") and the watchlist (bold print for changes that you haven't seen). --Matt314 14:48, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I saw the watchpage enhancement. I like it :) -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I put this in MediaWiki:Sitenotice. Translations welcome, as usual --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 03:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible to turn on the watchlist settings in other wikis by e.g. adding code in your monobook.css? /Lokal_Profil 16:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Only by asking in bugzilla, I think. – rotemlissTalk 16:46, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

No thumbnail Image:Venice Lagoon December 9 2001.jpg

This problem is persisting. There is no pic shown on the picture side, too. There are many examples of that behaviour, as I mentioned here some days ago. -- AM 14:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

That is a very large progressive JPG image. I think the thumbnailer has a memory limit (to prevent denial of service), and generating thumbnails for progressive JPGs is very memory intensive, so the size limit for them is much lower (at if you want thumbnails). You may want to try converting that to a regular JPG. Carl Lindberg 00:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I'll try that, but what about the many other examples? -- AM 09:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for this hint. I uploaded the pic with standard encoding and now it works! :-) -- AM 11:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Cool, good to know that bit of info was correct ;-)
The other problems on that page mostly seem to be software bugs. There seem to be two distinct problems: images with an ampersand (&) in the name, and something else where images have spaces in the name (no idea why that is just a problem sometimes).
The problem with ampersands is improperly-encoded URLs. In a URL, an ampersand must be escaped with a full entity (&amp;). In the case of the thumbnail URLs, it is encoded with a hex escape (%26) but not the entity. In the end though it really depends on the server software whether that works or not; the rule above is according to the HTTP spec but server software can always work differently and have its own rules. In this case, the generated URL for a thumbnail is something like which gets a server error The requested page title was invalid, empty, or an incorrectly linked inter-language or inter-wiki title. It may contain one more characters which cannot be used in titles. If I change the second %26 in the URL to "&amp;" or even "%26amp;", the URL suddenly works. If you change the first %26 similarly, it will not work again. And if you use a non-standard thumbnail size, then it works without change (though changing the URL the same way will still work with those). I can only presume that the standard-size thumbnail URLs are processed by a separate bit of server code, which unescapes the second part of the URL differently than URLs for non-standard sizes, and ends up with the wrong filesystem path. I know nothing of the Mediawiki software, so I couldn't guess as to where. Either the URLs need to be encoded differently or the unescaping needs to be fixed.
Some of the other images had spaces in the title, which with Mediawiki are usually encoded with an underscore, such as . This got a server error Although this PHP script (/w/thumb.php) exists, the file requested for output (/mnt/upload3/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Helmstedt_EON_Avacon.jpg/140px-Helmstedt_EON_Avacon.jpg) does not. Oddly, when I changed the underscores in the second part of the URL to %20 (the hex escape for a space) so it would read then it started working -- and the original URL now worked too. For some reason, that triggered the creation of the thumbnail. That worked for two of your images, where the thumbnail now displays for me on your page.
The last image on that page (Plabutsch1.jpg) is another mammoth progressive JPG. Carl Lindberg 07:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Hello, the ampersand (&) problem is known and is being fixed. Progressive JPGs just need to be converted, there is no way around that one. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 10:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your preoccupation with these problems. These things can be avoided now. But nevertheless, in some cases, I have no idea why pics don't work regularly. For example this one, it just doesn't show up on its picture side, full resolution and thumbs work though (I re-uploaded it with standard encoding, there is an underscore in the file name). -- AM 10:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
That was the second problem. I got the URL to the thumbnail, replaced the last "_" with "%20", and it worked -- and now the original thumbnail works too, so the image page looks fine. Looks like that needs to be repeated with each thumbnail that does not work. No idea why on that one. Good to know the ampersand one will be fixed. Carl Lindberg 15:21, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Yep! :) -- AM 18:04, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Press release

Is there anyone working on a press release for the 1M ? And do you have estimate when this number will be reached ? Anthere

I made a start. If uploads and deletions continue at the same rate as last week, we have 14 days, so 28 November. Of course we should try to be prepared in case it's earlier... (I will post something below as well) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 17:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Commons:Press releases/1M

OK folks, really need your help here!!! We have about 2 weeks (28 Nov is my prediction) until the millionth file is uploaded - it would be nice to have a press release that reflects the good things going on here. So what needs mentioning??? Write it in -- or if you don't feel confident enough to write press-speak, put a note on the talk page. Thanks, pfctdayelise (说什么?) 17:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


I found Category:Wikipedia categories matching with Wikimedia Commons categories wich seems to imply that the category tree here at commons should match the (English) Wikipedia category tree. Is that an ongoing work? And is it a good idea to match the English Wikipedia? Why not the German or French Wikipedias? 20:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

That is the work of User:Fabartus and I strongly discourage anyone else from carrying it on. :/ --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

.mov -> .ogg?

Is there any way to convert a .mov file to .ogg? My digital camera creates files in .mov. Thank you, Fang Aili 02:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

FFmpeg2theora [16]. --Gmaxwell 02:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I downloaded it. When I click it a black window appears and disappears. Is there a how-to guide for this program? --Fang Aili 03:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It is a command line-only interface. Basic instructions are here. Zzyzx11 03:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately I am not that computer-savvy. I only vaguely know what a comand line is, and it doesn't help that this program just appears and disappears in a second. --Fang Aili 04:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I hear that there's this great website called "Wikipedia" where you can find out such things... :) try w:Command line interface. Alphax (talk) 04:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Heh.. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide. But I will try. ;) --Fang Aili 14:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Quality of Image Content

I have a question regarding the subject of a picture, rather than the quality of the image itself. I've noticed that in Category:Ballet there are many uploaded pictures of dancers which show horrendous technique and/or are "proud parent" pictures which are of no use.

Cases in "pointe" (also rated by quality on a scale of 1 (low) to 5 (high) -- ones rated 0 should be deleted immediately):

  • Bad technique
    • Image:Duet en Pointe.jpg — neither is en pointe correctly, knees are bent; unuseable because of poor technique. 2
    • Image:En Pointe.jpg — HORRID picture. Dancer's shoes are completely straight and she is not en pointe at all. Compare with this picture of proper technique en pointe. 0
    • Image:En pointe ballet dancer closeup.jpg — echo above. 0
    • Image:Prima Ballerina.jpg — Not quite sure how the title is appropriate, considering the poor technique exhibited. While better than the abovementioned two, she is not en pointe correctly, her knees are bent, and even her arms don't look right. "Prima Ballerina" is a title for the highest level of dancer in a professional company, like Alicia Markova. Compare with Image:AliciaMarkova.jpg: even this picture is not perfect, and it's of one of the best dancers of the last century! 1
    • Image:Snowdance.jpg — This picture is a good photograph, but not a good picture of technique. The main dancer is exhibiting a bad arabesque, the dancers in the back are in a strange plié position, and the main dancer's foot was photoshopped in because it had been cut off. Compare her arabesque with Image:Jocelyn Vollmar.jpg. 2
  • "Proud Parent" pictures
    • Image:Ballet 02.jpg — already image of this competition for article purposes, in this one the children are all in awkward mid-move positions and the image doesn't serve any purpose. 2
    • Image:Ballet 01.jpg — from same performance as above. Bad picture, already two other useable ones. The poses are preperatory, not active, and don't illustrate anything useful. 3

What are the options with these pictures? Can they be deleted (in the cases of the worst ones) or have a warning added to them stating that they show poor technique? I've had to remove them from WIkipedia pages many times when they were added by people who don't know about proper ballet technique. They aren't just poor examples, but can be dangerous when people think that those pictures of people en pointe are how you're supposed to look and go around dancing like that. Pointe can be dangerous when not done properly, and technique like this should not be encouraged. In my professional opinion, the people in those pictures shouldn't even be en pointe, let alone illustrating the act! Editor at Large 01:22, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

All but one of these are from FlickrLickr, and all are sourced from Flickr anyway.
With FlickrLickr, people could choose stuff they thought would be useful, without necessarily knowing anything about the topic. We have a lot of unidentified, but pretty, flower pictures from Flickr, too.
I guess there are two questions. 1: Do we have pictures which correctly show what these images are attempting to depict? 2: Are these pictures incidentally useful for some other purpose? (For example, children at play, or children's dance, or something...or even what not to do) If the answers are 1:yes and 2:no and these images are not being used, I would nominate them for deletion.
Even if they are not deleted, I think it would still be a good idea to edit the descriptions to point out the flaws that you mentioned here, and possibly link to better images. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Delete them all. They have no value nor purpose for encyclopedic content or reference, not even as "what not to do," as you suggest.Queenofthewilis 13:32, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I think adding a note about the problems/quality issues is the way to go. Whilst these images might not be so good for illustrating Wikipedia articles on dance steps, they might still be useful in other projects. For example, Image:Snowdance.jpg might be useful on Wikibooks, or to illustrate a score of Debussy's La neige danse. -- Solipsist 19:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I would rather not see Image:Snowdance.jpg anywhere -- it's just a really bad picture. It's not like a fairuse image; where if it's the only picture available then, hey, throw strict regulations out the window and use it. It's a bad representation of the art of ballet. You know how people mimic ballet by putting their hands in little "M"s on their heads and twirl in circles? Most of these pictures are like that. People see these and get ideas into their heads that this is what ballet is, which is totally false. It's a gross misrepresentation of an extraordinarily complex and difficult discipline. Please watch this video, and then compare it to some of the pictures. Are they really worth keeping?
It's hard for non-dancers (even dancers in other dance forms) to understand, but I can round up many more people from Wikipedia who would agree with me. I only happened to mention it to Queenofthewilis because I'd seen her around at the time, but I know that many others will agree with us. This is more a matter of getting rid of bad representations of the art than of un-usefulness for Wikipedia articles; I understand the reasons for keeping them, but I think the reasons for not keeping them outweigh anything else. Editor at Large 08:54, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Having come across Image:Snowdance.jpg far too many times throughout Wikipedia articles (and I think it was ported to Wikia as well), I have always found it grossly inaccurate, poorly framed, and generally ugly. :] Looking at it makes me think of broken ankles... However, beyond its general ugliness, there is the problem that it is incorrect. This is not how one executes these movements, and conveying incorrect information hopefully isn't in the agenda. Sure, there are giant snowflakes in the background and it's a picture that could be used for aesthetic purposes, but the problem is that if someone were to imitate the dancers, they could be seriously hurt.
As for the others, I think that images which display poor technique shouldn't be kept. "What not to do" pictures are best done by overexaggerating what one is not supposed to be doing for the purposes of creating such an image. --Keitei 23:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Only 2 of the above pictures are from FlickrLickr, BTW -- the others use the Flickr template, but did not go through the FL review process.--Eloquence 13:29, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Relevance of {{PD-US-not renewed}} here on Commons

  • Please tell me if this issue has been discussed before.
  • If not, don't you think these pictures should remain on the English Wikipedia, as the template fails to name any country - apart from the US - where these pictures are free to be published ?

Teofilo 11:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

This tag is applicable only to U.S. works; i.e. images first published in the U.S. I think such images would also be PD in all other countries that do apply the rule of the shorter term with respect to U.S. works. The difficulty lies in knowing whether or not that rule applies for any given country. Lupo 11:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
The ground that some imaginary country could have some imaginary law that enables to use these pictures in that country is too frail. To my mind the sheer fact that these pictures cannot be used in Germany is enough to discard the pictures from Commons. Teofilo 12:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe you're right, but there's really no need for hyperbole. Nothing "imaginary" here. Just a difficulty to find out whether there are bilateral treaties that would override any statement such as the one e.g. in §58 of the Japanese law. Neither Japan nor its law are "imaginary". Lupo 12:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, Japan apparently was a bad example, as there do not appear to be any bilateral copyright treaties between the U.S. and Japan (see circular 38a of the U.S: Copyright Office), and thus I think we may take that §58 at face value. France is probably a better example: the EU does honor the rule of the shorter term with respect to non-EU countries (§7(1) of EU directive 93/98/EEC). What does French law say? And what does the bilateral treaty of July 21, 1891 between the U.S. and France say? That's the difficulty I meant. Lupo 13:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, that same difficulty also occurs with plain {{PD-US}}... something published before 1923 in the U.S. is only PD in 70y p.m.a. countries if either the author died more than 70 years ago or the country does apply the rule of the shorter term with respect to U.S. works. And vice versa, too ({{PD-Old}}/{{PD-Old-70}}): it is possible that e.g. a German work published after 1923 of an author who died more than 70 years ago was still copyrighted in the U.S. ... as I understand it, the consensus around here is to simply ignore these cases. Lupo 10:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Shorter term rule seems to apply for France, as article 123-12 of Code de la propriété intellectuelle is a copy-paste of §7 (1) of EU directive 93/98. Do you have any hint of how Germany manages to escape its European obligation to follow §7 (1) of the directive ? Teofilo 12:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
In general, Germany does follow §7(1). But for U.S. works, that's overridden by an old bilateral treaty that is still in effect and not superseded by any later development, such as the Berne Convention or an EU directive. See en:WP:PD#The rule of the shorter term... that's why I was asking what that old bilateral treaty between the U.S. and France said. If that treaty is still in effect and has no rule of the shorter term, it may be that France does not, after all, apply that rule to U.S. works, even though its law says so in general. (As in Germany...) See the difficulty now? Lupo 14:50, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Just want to say that if we cannot have this tag here, we would have to delete many other images that are in the public domain in the USA but copyrighted elsewhere.--Jusjih 15:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Please visit [17] to find a list of yes or no about the rule of the shorter term in some countries and areas.--Jusjih 16:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Easier ogg theora conversion.


Wiztheora is a script to help make it easier to convert video from other file formats to ogg theora, the video format used in Wikimedia projects

Anyone can and want to help ?

wiztheora test page...

--OsvaldoGago 13:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A new version was uploaded: wiztheora 0.02, also some small improvements on the test page. --OsvaldoGago 23:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Two questions

  • I own scans of two articles from 1897 and 1907 art magazines. I did not check the death date of the authors yet since I'd like to know first if they may be uploaded here or not. They are high quality and they allow printing and reading of the text. They deal with photographer Wilhelm von Gloeden. At any rate:
    • scans of ancient articles, provided the text be in the public domain, are accepted?
    • if the answer is yes, should I deal with them as with images (ie upload them to WikiCommons) or as with texts (ditto with wikiSource)?
  • I upload large quantities of images and it takes ages to do it. I wish I could use an multiple-upload tool such the one the have in Flicker. I read (by means of a hint in a user page's discussion) there is a tool called "commonist" which allows people to do it. How does it work? Where can I find it?

Thank you --G.dallorto 19:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

First, what country was the magazine published in? --tomf688 (talk - email) 22:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
One in the UK, the other one in Germany. --G.dallorto 08:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Commonist is here: Commons:Tools/Commonist pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Well I'm not too up-to-date on the copyright laws of those countries, but in the U.S., works published before 1923 (in the U.S.) are in the public domain. This may not be the case for German/UK magazines. --tomf688 (talk - email) 21:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


As many of you know, en:wp has a list of hottest backlogs that some people see on certain pages. (for example I see them on special:watchlist ) Would this be a good idea here? We do have backlogs and they change from time to time... it's a judgement call of any admin to add or remove items from that list, it's a meta page that gets edited. ++Lar: t/c 19:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I did ask about getting a bot to do this, but it was met with a resounding silence. Bots, people! Zero effort and useful results!! --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
A bot to update the meta page that shows messages? or something different, you confused me, sorry! The en:wp thing is done by hand (I've never done it so don't recall what page it is) as a judgement call by an admin. I'd be willing to pass judgement if others were too... ++Lar: t/c 05:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
OK we are talking about different but related things... but I have never seen backlogs listed on special:watchlist. I have seen them on special:recentchanges, which we do as well. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm confused. The backlogs being listed on special:watchlist is due to code I link to, it's not there for everyone... which is custom to en:wp. So never mind. Sorry for confusion. ++Lar: t/c 05:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Copyright questioned

I inquired a ja-wiki crat about the use of Image:Sentai-goranger-1975.jpg on the Japanese article of the subject depicted, however he believes it is a fair use image, but I am unsure of its status.Ryulong 04:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, the image depicts the costumes of the 1975-77 Japanese television series en:Himitsu Sentai Goranger as they appeared in the en:Bandai Museum. This image is linked to six different language Wikis, and was originally uploaded to en-wiki under the terms at the commons image.Ryulong 05:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Requesting pictures abotu mexico

I know Picture_requests exists, but the noise ratio (images I can't fulfill) it's too high for me. So I'll be watching User:Drini/requestsif anyone needs mexico related pictures. -- Drini 23:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

File names and special characters

The upload file page links Commons:First steps/Upload form saying to use "a descriptive and concise filename without special characters.", but Commons:First steps/Upload form says nothing about what special characters not to use or even what a special character might be. Does this refer to :;'"<>().@#$%^&*![{}]? What exactly does it refer to? Is there a better Commons page that discusses appropriate filenames? (Attempted initial discussion at Commons talk:First steps/Upload form, but no response. --Dual Freq 23:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Hm. If you try to use a "|" (pipe), ":" (colon), "[" or "]" (square brackets) in the "destination filename", it will change it to a "-" (hyphen). All other symbols AFAIK are OK, including Unicode. The only thing is that if you use non-Latin characters, some users will only see question marks or boxes, if they don't have Unicode installed.
I use Unicode in titles, and lots of other users do too (especially CJK). eg. Image:Uyghur - Arabic script - isolated form - چ (IPA ʧ).svg. There is no technical reason not to use "special characters" -- if they were harmful, the software would just transform them as it does above if you try to use a pipe -- it just might mean limited readability for some users. (Remember users cannot always control their systems, either. Whenever I browse Commons at uni, anything at all that's not A-Za-z turns to question marks. It's really frustrating.) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the response. I guess I should have asked a more specific question. I uploaded Image:USS John C Calhoun SSBN-630.jpg and chose the name to deliberately avoiding parenthesis and multiple periods, but the file was re-uploaded with an alternative filename, Image:USS John C. Calhoun (SSBN-630).jpg by another editor. Since I upload a fair amount of files with similar names, I was wondering if I was paranoid in avoiding the extra periods and the parenthesis. Is there guidance suggesting whether one should use or not use those characters? --Dual Freq 23:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
My opinion is that if they make the filename more legible, use them. That's my guidance. :) Parentheses and periods especially should be legible by everyone. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am unable to find a photo I just saw

Hello,I am new at please bare with me....

Not too long ago,I spotted a picture of Julias Gombos' gravesite,and it had an excellent shot of the family crest...(which is the crest my family has been trying to locate and didn't even know it existed until now.) In my search,I have located a picture,almost the same, only it is from a different angle,and I cannot see it clearly anymore..... PLEASE HELP ME!? the preceding unsigned comment is by Iron butterfly (talk • contribs)

Were you looking for Image:Gömbös Gyulasir.jpg or another image? Zzyzx11 03:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Geographical regions of Americas

The United Nations has defined here the following subregions of the Americas:

Presently, we use the following categories: Category:Caribbean, Category:Central America, Category:South America and Category:North America (we have no Category:Northern America). Therefore Category:North America contains:

I suggest to fit with the United Nations definitions, and to divide the Americas in four subregions. In practice, it consists of:

  1. moving Mexico categories (from North America categories) to Central America categories
  2. moving Caribbean categories (from North America categories) to Americas categories
  3. moving Central America categories (from North America categories) to Americas categories
  4. renaming North America categories to Northern America categories (North America categories could be reused afterwards)

What do you think about this proposal? --Juiced lemon 14:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Mexico belongs with its largest part to Northern America not to Central America. --ALE! ¿…? 14:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Until now, I have classified Mexico according to en.wp (as you say). But, I think it is a conventional division, no geographical. What is your reference? --Juiced lemon 16:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
For example: en:Isthmus of Tehuantepec --ALE! ¿…? 11:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your example. It says that the tectonic definition for North America is not in use; that's why North America=Northern America+Central America+Caribbean, +Mexico if you don't include this country in any of the 3 previous regions. Since Category:Caribbean and Category:Central America are currently in use in Commons, the issue is: “Do we continue to use subdivisions of North America (larger than countries), and if the answer is yes, which ones?” --Juiced lemon 14:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Until now I supposed that the main division was made by Continents not for part of continents; so if the main division is made by continent it never happen that a continent Caribbean or cental America exists ( see [[18]]). I propose to leave the main categories per continent ( Asia, Africe, Europe, South and North America ); if you see the need you can always create a sub-structure, but not substitute the one you've proposed to the continental one. --mac 16:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Most categories are classified by country, and you must select the controlling country to access to dependent territories. Several categories (like maps, animals, plants, transport) are (also) classified by continent or region; you can access directly to dependent territories with continent/region subdivisions. However, I don't know any Commons reference regarding such classification. Some continents are more advanced than others, therefore we have subdivisions of North America, and no subdivisions of Oceania, as for maps categories. It's not a problem to move Category:Maps of the Caribbean to Category:Maps of North America, but that is a one-way operation. So, I should like to collect several opinions about the issue. --Juiced lemon 18:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Image renaming

Hello ! Could an administrator move this : Image:Image-Magnetization.jpg to this : Image:Magnetization.jpg. Thanks ! --Zedh 14:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Please upload you image under new name and place {{bad name|<new name>}} in old image description. --EugeneZelenko 15:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, try to give it a more specific name than just "magnetization.jpg". --tomf688 (talk - email) 16:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the tips ! --Zedh 14:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Texture repository

Hi, I wanted to ask if there are some efforts to create a centralised texture repository in the wikimedia commons or on other places? regards --Cyc 17:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Covers of DVD's and Books?

Some days ago I found this image (right) where the motive is the covers of these Anime dvd's. So, is it ok to upload photographs of books and DVD's? Or does it need to be so many DVD's/Books so it's pretty much impossible to see exactly what titles thats in the photo? / 22:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Hm. That's borderline. If that gets nominated for deletion, it might well be deleted. If you cropped that photo to just show any one cover, it would definitely be unfree. If you photograph tons, it should be fine (although I have still seen them nominated for deletion, but they tend to get kept). So how's that for vague advice? :) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Russian speaker needed

Please, could someone check if the copyright disclaimer in this image Image:Yerevan flag.gif is right? Thanks. Anna 19:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've read the linked legal text. The Russian language text states that "state symbols and signs (flags, heraldry, orders, monetary designs etc)" are excluded from copyright. Man vyi 20:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Will be good idea to create {{PD-AM-exempt}} like {{PD-RU-exempt}}, {{PD-BY-exempt}} and etc. --EugeneZelenko 16:33, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Short Interwiki

I found this old bug on bugzilla calling for c: to be implemented as the interwiki link to commons (as opposed to commons:) and commented on it again. I suspect it would be appreciated...--Nilfanion 21:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

A follow-up, I talked briefly to Brion about this on IRC. He is concerned about articles breaking if we grabbed c: for this purpose, it would be interesting to know how badly affected the various projects would be...--Nilfanion 23:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't get it. How would articles break if it's currently not a shortcut? I wouldn't intend for commons: to stop working, of course... --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
For starters, en:Special:Prefixindex/C: lists the possible pages that would be broken on C: The Contra Adventure and C:\WINDOWS would be affected. Zzyzx11 05:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, all but one of those are actually redirects, so that's not too bad. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 06:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that the prefix has to work in all languages. If "C:" is used by soma language in the beginning of words, it cannot be used for interwikis. When the "S:" interwiki was introduced for Wikisource it broke articles on Swedish Wikipedia. Now the swedish WP uses a different interwiki prefix for Wikisource than all other projects. ("SRC:" is used. I think that is a ISO language code, so there will be problems if a wikipedia is started for that language.) / 11:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What about using com: as prefix? -- Bryan (talk to me) 11:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Com: might be better, if c: is an issue. However, can someone who knows what they are doing do a db dump for pages starting c:? I've looked in mainspace for several of the major 'pedias and so far I've only found one article (the one on en above) and several redirects; many of which are short crossspace redirects (C:CSD for example). Can we get the data to see how feasible c: is?--Nilfanion 12:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I tried asking about this on Meta I think it was and I got a not very helpful answer (mostly along the lines of "why on earth would anyone ever want to do that?"... well duh!). I'll try to dig up the link, but explaining there why it is a good idea might be helpful. ++Lar: t/c 15:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Image:Vista Aerea General Severiano.jpg

In the image description it reads that the webpage where the image was taken from allowed "reuse in any situations". The link is to a Brazil page, so we need someone who speaks Portuguese to confirm that this statement is true and the modifications of the image are allowed. Can anybody take a look at it? Thanks! --Matt314 23:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You'll have better luck finding Portugese speakers at Commons:Esplanada. (see the links at the top.) pfctdayelise (说什么?) 04:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The have a gallery of images, but I can't find any information related to copyright. I have replaced the original description with subst:nld. Lugusto҉ 15:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Idea for a bot - CommonsCleaner


I had an idea for a bot. It's a CommonsDelinker that only works in Commons, so we can approve it straight away. ;) Well rather than delinking images as they are deleted, it would do a periodic sweep of all the galleries and remove images that have been deleted. Quite a few of our galleries have some "gaps" which looks a bit unprofessional and is maybe confusing as well. I don't know how to build such a bot, but maybe someone else does. :) Thoughts? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 06:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, and also not to difficult. I am however still busy with the flickr stuff, so I guess somebody else must volunteer. -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
It sounds like a good idea. I can't really think of anything that could go wrong with this. --tomf688 (talk - email) 21:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Before deleting an image, it is easy to save the list of its Common links. Therefore, I don't understand why you don't suggest to make a bot which delink an single image as soon as it is deleted. --Juiced lemon 12:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
It's more or less the same, except for the existing "holes" from already-deleted images. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"Convert to international"

I saw this tag at Image:Cathode ray Tube.PNG, and edited the picture. I've uploaded it as Image:Cathode ray tube - neutral.png, but now I'm not so sure - was I supposed to replace the main image? Yuval YChat • 11:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would not replace it, just put a link that there is an international version available. For English projects the old version might be better, so with saving it at a different location it is still possible to use the old version. --Matt314 13:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Quite the same as I've done. Thanks :-) Yuval YChat • 13:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and thanks for adding the original author. Blush.png Yuval YChat • 13:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Upload on fr.wikipedia


Just to inform you, a bit late though, that the upload page has been changed on fr.wikipedia a few weeks ago. Users are now redirect to the help page Aide:Importer un fichier instead of Special:Upload (by tweaking the Upload link in the sidebar), and they are redirected then

  • either to Commons with clear instructions, for a PD picture or self-made picture
  • to the local imports for fair use and pictures for user pages.
  • to a central talk page here they can ask basic questions, for all other cases. There is quick feedback on this talk page, and users get a rapid answer : "yes, upload this on Commons with this license", "no this is forbidden", "it could be fair use, upload it on locally but be aware that it can be deleted", etc.

Now, fr.wikipedia gets about 20 to 40 new images per day only, mostly logos and still tolerated fair use. This means two things : first, that this idea of geting a help page instead of the upload form is nice ; second, taht Commons may get more files coming from French-speaking users, and possibly more copyvios as well (though I don't think it is as important as the pt.wikipedia issue recently).

Just to keep you aware and share good ideas :-) Cheers, le Korrigan bla 14:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

How many images did fr.wikipedia used to get? For comparison.
I think it is a great idea and very well done. So congrats to fr.wp. :) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 07:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It was in the range of 140 - 160 images per day... fr:user:Guillom is the great architect of all this :-) le Korrigan bla 08:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources for {{PD-old}}

Hi, IANAL but I have made a question/commentary at Commons talk:Licensing#Is the source required for a PD document ? and no one replied up today. Please take a look and reply :). Lugusto҉ 18:44, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Blank thumbnail

I try to make a thumbnail of Image:CSX map.svg but it won't work: [19] is a blank image. How can I make it render? --NE2 21:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I remade the SVG with simpler boundary data and it worked. Does the SVG renderer have issues with too-complicated images? --NE2 22:15, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this may be caused by Bug 2888 in which the MediaWiki software has trouble generating thumbnails from large files. Zzyzx11 05:57, 21 November 2006 (UTC)