Commons:Village pump/Archive/8

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Village pump (Archives)

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Contents


Moving images to the commons under a different name - description page redirects?

It was just pointed out to me that when moving images to the commons under a different name, and subsequently deleting the image from the local wiki, this breaks all external and interwiki-links that may point to that page. It also causes the image to not be accessible via google, until the index is updated.

As a solution it was suggested to create a redirect from the old description page (no containing no image) to the new description page (now showing the image from the commons). But there are some issues with this:

  • redirectes to images-pages are broken at the moment, see bugzilla:1103. The redirect works, but no image is shown on the resulting page.
  • most of those redirects are bound to be useless, as there are not many interwiki-links to images, or external link to image description pages (I think)
  • image description pages that have no image associated are generally considered a bad thing (or so I belived until today)

So waht do you think? Should we encourage the different projects to keep redirects from the old description pages when "renaming" an image by uploading it under a different name, to the commons or otherwise? -- Duesentrieb 01:47, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

IMHO it is not necessary for those redirects. We should change the imagename at every page the image is used. Normally a few pages only. --Raymond de 07:26, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I, too, do not think that this is a major problem, but some people seem to think otherwise. Also, it's not as simple as you say, because we can only correct internal links imidiately. But other wikis may link to the description page by an interwiki link - which is broken when the image is deleted. Worse, other wikis may even use the deleted page as a source link. So, for heavily used images, it may make sense to keep a redirect (I did that fpr the GNU-Head in the german WP, which was moved to the commons under a different name). -- Duesentrieb 20:41, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposed city naming standards

I'd like to propose the following standards:

  • Articles and categories of cities should be in the form of "city, country", except in countries (like the US and Canada) where "city, state" or "city, province" is more customary. But the city alone should not be the name of the article or category. This avoids ambiguities (Paris, Kentucky or Paris, France?) and improves consistency.
  • Category names should refer to cities, towns, villages, etc. as simply "cities". This is just a lot simpler that categories like "cities and villages in Germany" or "Cities and towns by continent".

Comments? Quadell (talk) 02:14, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am and I remain opposed to preemptive disambiguation. This was voted down on Wikipedia, and I'll oppose it here as well. - Andre Engels 13:29, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Okay, but people will search for "Paris" by entering "Paris, France" as well as "Paris". One will have to direct to the other. And there will frequently be duplicate categories of this sort, that will have to be merged to one name or the other. I'm just trying to create a standard, so we'll all know what to name new categories. Quadell (talk) 16:27, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Maybe Americans will do that as they are used to have the "city, state" construction. But in Europe that style isn't popular, so Europeans will simply search for "Paris". Thus we should do it same as in the english wikipedia - have the "city, state" for US/Canada, simply city name elsewhere, and only if necessary disambiguation. Maybe we need something like redirects and disambiguations for categories as well? andy 18:53, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
While we're at it, I'd like to say I've seen a lot of inconsistency for naming of neighborhoods in New York City in Wikipedia. Some are Area, New York (where New York could mean the state or city) and some are Area, Borough, and I think a couple are Area, Borough, State. I'm a believer in Borough, State and Area, Borough, but is the a general enough problem to need a universal policy? I know other places have boroughs, but do they then get subdivided? --Eli the Bearded 22:34, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A policy on that point might be useful on the English Wikipedia, I don't think it is on Commons. I think it will be extremely rare to have a subdivision of a city get its own article - most cities will remain on the city level, and where this is not the case, it is usual to immediately go to the individual building level. - Andre Engels 23:16, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Henri Matisse

All of the Henri Matisse collection is not in the public domain in France, and probably a great number of countries (some of it may be public domain in the United States). The images were incorrectly tagged, and we inadvertently used a copyrighted image as the image of the day! David.Monniaux 18:37, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hello, I would stress your attention on taking care when tagging image as Public Domain world wide : the picture of the day ( Image:Henri Matisse (1869-1954) - Woman with the Hat (1905).jpg ) as other Matisse pictures reproductions are not in Public Domain in France until at least 2024 (1954 +70 years after death of Matisse) (maybe longer as French law grant some rights on snapshots too). I will remove the {{PD}} and only the {{PD-US}} will remain on this images. FoeNyx 18:46, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC) (PS: I posted in same time as David sorry)

We still have to discuss policy on this, however, as I have stated above (see #paintings), my own opinion is that works by Matisse simply should not be at Commons. - Andre Engels 23:18, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I very much agree with you Andre, works by any painters of the XXth century should definitely be handled with extreme care. Picasso's work falls under the same restrictions, and tell you what... Picasso's heirs are not funny to deal with ;-) notafish }<';> 18:40, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wiki-Syntax in Galleries

Hi, I was just wondering if it was possible to make the wiki-syntax working in Galleries, like it already does in thumbnails, that would be useful for description of images --Lennert B 00:17, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is one of the most-wanted features i guess, but i have no idea if anyone is working on it. Ther's a feature request for this on Bugzilla: have a look at bugzilla:1015 and vote! -- Duesentrieb 16:49, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Image:CardinalMarks.png

With my image description page Image:CardinalMarks.png I get the following PHP errors (and you will get probably get the same):

Warning: stat(): Stat failed for /usr/local/apache/common/docroot/commons/upload/thumb/e/e2/597px-CardinalMarks.png 
(errno=2 - No such file or directory) in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Image.php on line 530

Warning: unlink(/usr/local/apache/common/docroot/commons/upload/thumb/e/e2/597px-CardinalMarks.png):
No such file or directory in /usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.4/includes/Image.php on line 533

It seems to me as if PNG files have a problem with the on-the-fly generation of images in different resolution. However, PNG is the recommended format for drawings, isn't it? Or should I rather upload the drawing as JPG file!? --Reinhard 20:53, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Should work now. The File was corrupt. -guety 21:08, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks/Danke --Reinhard 00:32, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How many categories should an article/image have?

I just noticed in Andy Garcia (and several other "articles") that there are the following cats added:

Why do we need hierarchies, when every article/image would be added in every possible category - and if I don't see one I want, I create a duplicate one? -- Srbauer 04:11, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

My opinion is that an article/image can be in more than one category, if the categories are not on the same branch of the category tree. Parent categories should never be added, if the item is already in a subcategory. It makes navigating the ctegories awkward. In your example Category:People from the United States of America and Category:US people are clearly duplicates (there is no question that this is not sensible) furthermore those are subcategories of Category:People (so this parent directory should be deleted from the article, Category:Actors is a subcategory of Category:People as are Category:US people, but it is on another branch (local categorization and profession categories) - so it can be used together with Category:US people. To answer your two other questions: We would not need hierarchies, if every article is added to every possible category and no, you should not create new categories if there is already another one that fits. -- Peter_Aut 07:50, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are also very strange categories. I noticed Category:Camera type This category shall only contain sub-categories for classifying the type of camera on which a photograph was taken.. I do not see the point of this --Walter 19:05, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Upper limit of 100

I do not know, if this is a side-effect of the implementation of MediaWiki 1.4: Now there seems to be an upper limit of 100 articles or 100 subcategories in a category - see Category:Asteraceae (e.g. Tanacetum parthenium is not shown) or Category:Plantae by family (e.g. Category:Lamiaceae is not shown). Who is able to fix this? --Franz Xaver 16:22, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Please compare Commons talk:MediaWiki 1.4 upgrade#Number of Images in Category limited? --:Bdk: 19:05, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)</nowiki>

Vote on the place to put images

I have started up a vote on whether to put images on category pages or normal page on Commons:Images on normal pages or categories:Vote. If you would like to change the voting options or make other changes to the voting procedure, please do so within the next few days.

The vote runs until the 31st, but I will take the liberty to declare an outcome policy pending discussion if it is clearly ahead before that date. - Andre Engels 10:14, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We still don't know how on earth a non english speaker chinese wikipedian/commoner has a chance to: 1° find the picture he needs 2°name the picture he uploads 3° categorize this very picture. I think we have to find something very soon, before the whole thing becomes completely useless for non english speakers and get to the status of a huge unsearchable mess. Not that your poll is not appropriate, but speaking of priority I'd say : something has to be done to comply multilinguism or let's just say Commons is only for one language. The basic minimum : ask developers for category redirects. The ideal : have commons show categories depending on the browser language. What do you think ? villy 23:32, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I very much agree with villy here. There are many unanswered questions that need to be answered to ground such a vote. None of the propositions you list address specifically the question of languages. Is that to say that articles/contributions such as 唐朝 for example, are not welcome on Commons because *I* can't understand them? I say let us have a (desperately needed) discussion and vote on Commons:Language policy and agree on something suitable for everyone first, ask for redirects for categories to be able to do with categories as we do for articles (ie. redirect from one language to the other) in the meantime and then try and make a constructed proposal as to what we need for developments (with, for example, the possibility of "tagging" categories in as many languages as we see fit -- as proposed above by Duesentrieb). notafish }<';> 23:45, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
What are category redirects? What would they do? How would they work? What problem do they solve? How would they be implemented? --Brion VIBBER 03:41, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A article to category redirect does not work properly. For example Category Redirect Test states #REDIRECT [[Category:Magdeburg, Germany]], and redirects to Category:Magdeburg, Germany. The category, however, is treated as a normal page, and does not show the categorized articles, images, and categories. (Compare Category Redirect Test with Category:Magdeburg, Germany). A category to category redirect works (see Category:Redirect Test redirecting to Category:Magdeburg, Germany). However, while images in the category redirect (Image:Grave of Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor.jpg) show up on the non-redirected Category:Redirect Test, they do not show on Category:Magdeburg, Germany. (The last point may not necessarily be a desired feature) -- Chris 73 05:11, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
See bugzilla:710 - but i don't think that category-redirects are a good option, aliases would be much better as i suggested in some comment above and on the mailing list. -- Duesentrieb 11:31, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree that category aliases would be ideal. Quadell (talk) 15:23, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I too agree that [[category:something|Something|de=Irgendwas|jp=....]] suggested by Duesentrieb would be perfect. Is really bugzilla:710 asking for that ? I'm not familiar with the bugzilla system but I have the feeling that bugzilla:710 is about redirection. Would it be necessary to open a new bug case to get category aliases ? villy 16:18, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
but 710 is about redirection, it was a response to the post above mine and is unrelated to the labels-in-categories issue. There is not yet a bugzilla-entry for that, but a post on the mailing list. -- Duesentrieb 01:41, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I am of the opinion that a fully working redirection would be much better than category aliasing as shown here. With a redirect, a German can use [[Category:Schiff]] and a French speaker [[Category:Bateau]], and they would both end up in [[Category:Ship]]. With aliases, if the German would not know the French word, or not be bothered to add it, the Frenchman looking for 'Bateau' will never find it. - Andre Engels 09:33, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
With redirects, you must use the one real name of the category in articles in order to show up in the category - if the french version is the redirect, and you use the french link in an article, the article will not end up in the readl category - it would end up in the cat that redirects, and would thus be hidden. Oh, you mean the redirect should also collect all articles in one category, no matter what language was used to add them to the category? But that is exactly what is meant be the ALIAS proposal.
Also, with redirects the explanatory text at top of the category, and its title, are going to be in one language only. Furthermore, to create category redirects, you have to know the words in both languages, too, just as you would with alises. I can not see any advantage to redirects. -- Duesentrieb 17:14, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes, what I meant was that I would like that if Category:A redirects to Category:B, pages with [[Category:A]] on them will be shown on [[Category:B]]. If that is what is meant by the proposal, then what does [[category:something|Something|de=Irgendwas|jp=....]] mean?
The explanatory text can be translated if so wanted, leaving only the title to be single-language. And if you use category redirects one person needs to know both languages. If you use aliases, every person who puts an image in the category has to do so. - Andre Engels 08:30, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

We have two separate problems here, and have two seperate proposals to solve them:

a) translating the name of a category. The solution is to uses aliases (elaborate redirects), as I described above. Only the person that creates the alias needs to know the translation for the category name. So, placing Category:Schiff and Category:Bateau in a category would have the smae effect. Looking at the Category:Schiff and Category:Bateau would show the same entries, but the category would have a different title and different herader-text.

b) translate the labels for the individual items that show in the category. The solution is to allow localized labels in the links that place an item in a category. As by suggestion a), the person placing the link need to know only one of the aliases of the category, but can optionally give multiple translations for the name of the page that it places in the category. So, the make a page show under a localized name in categories, translations would have to be added to the category-links on that page. This is similar to the ability to place redirects in (not to) a category, as is sometimes used to get a similar effect, but this does not work very well.

I hope this makes it a little clearer. -- Duesentrieb 09:54, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Language policy

And, to start a discussion, I have tried to summarize and organize the page Commons:Language policy with what has been proposed/done until now. Please, do voice your opinion on the talk page on these issues, so as to reach a clear policy that can be used by all Commons contributors. notafish }<';> 01:05, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

General disclaimer & Commons:About

Hi, today I just put the slightly adapted text from en:Wikipedia:General disclaimer to Commons:General disclaimer, this page was fairly empty before [1]. The disclaimer is linked at the bottom of each page in the main namespace. Could someone please be so kind to read and correct it if nessecary? And I linked Commons:About which is also included in the mediawiki bottom line to Commons:Project plan, but there should be an own text soon imho. Who can write an appropriate text? Thanx a lot --:Bdk: 06:01, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the disclaimer. That was needed -- Chris 73 00:07, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Commons:Translation coordination core

I have created Commons:Translation coordination core in order to improve the multilingual side of Commons. Please contribute and start or go on translating what is needed! Thanks :) villy 13:29, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Special:Uncategorizedpages

What happened to this feature. Although there still are many uncategorized pages, these are not shown any more since today. I started to categorize such pages on Sunday and there still is a lot of work to do. --Franz Xaver 21:57, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Images from National Marine Sanctuary's Photo Gallery

User:Lucero_del_Alba has uploaded lots of images, which he tags as {{PD-USGov-NOAA}}. Unfortunatly the site states something different: http://www.sanctuaries.nos.noaa.gov/pgallery/pgallery.html#hints . I do not think that this tag is appropriate, furthermore that those images are not suited for inclusion in commons. Peter_Aut 10:38, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If that's the page, then I agree. Apparently those are images that belong to the photographer rather than NOAA. You can put the whole list on deletion request and give Lucero del Alba a notification on their user discussion page. - Andre Engels 23:48, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have contacted Lucero del Alba through his discussion page. He was not aware of the problem but pointed out that some of the images are labeled NOAA (without stating an author); in my opinion at least these can stay. Concerning the others he will try to contact the sites spokesperson and find out, if we can keep those photographs. He asks not to take any further action for a few days till he gets an answer. Peter_Aut 11:56, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

update

Hello everyone, I have a little update about the National Marine Sanctuary (NMS) images. As Peter said, I tried to contact Mr. Michael Murphy -the NMS spokesperson- and according to his voice mail he's currently on vacation until the 1st ~ 2nd week of January (you can check this by giving him a call, see his contact page for more details).

I am willing of trying to contact him once again shortly, when he's back. Since I've uploaded many hi-res images and it would be a lot of work to re-upload them and tag them once again in case the NMS administration allows us to use these images under a Commons-compatible license... would it be possible to re-mark the images that are stating an author with the Template:Unknown to prevent someone else of using them and at the same time keeping those images on the Commons server for a short and reasonable time (about 2 more weeks), until I get an answer from Mr. Murphy? --Lucero del Alba 00:50, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Proposal to organize Commons images for different languages

Why not organize images in the wikipedias instead organize in Commons. Could be created a new namespace in wikipedia like Gallery or Album to organize images in categories or articles. Each wikipedia could choice the way that the images will be organized. Well, if my suggestion is a big mistake, please forgive me, I'm "half-newbie" in wikimedia. Gbiten 12:09, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This is actually a good idea...to the extent that Commons is not *only* a source for the Wikipedias, but also a source for anyone who needs free media files for any purpose. Organizing images in a language Wikipedia is a good thing, but it cannot replace organization here. notafish }<';> 17:21, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hello and look at what I have suggested here.Jared 10:59, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Proposal for a new structure main page/portal

Hello all, in the last days I worked out a new structure for the german interface. Please compare Hauptseite (main page) and Commons:Gemeinschaftsportal (portal). Its aim is to divert the basic contents into welcome text and navigation (main page) and user help (portal) as it is common in most wikipedias. If you like it, you can c&p it to your language. Comments are welcome on Commons talk:Gemeinschaftsportal. Thanx --:Bdk: 22:00, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

It's great. I adapted it in en: and fr: Thanx ! notafish }<';> 17:14, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Copyright in a Russian site

Hello, I'm Dav 59, I don't speak russian but I would know the license of the photos in this site http://www.knights.ru/history.shtml. To me, it's the acrobats of the russian army and the photo are in the Public Domain but I'm not sure, help me, thanks.--Dav 59 11:48, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dear Dav 59, i do not think that the photos are in the public domain. You may switch to the englisch version of the site and send the acrobats a e-mail requesting permission for using the fotos under GFDL. -- Stahlkocher 12:14, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I attempt by e-mail.--Dav 59 13:05, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
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