Commons talk:Project scope

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository

Jump to: navigation, search

Contents

[edit] On Censorship

A word on which Wikipedia prides itself is "free" - The free encyclopedia. Up to now, Wikipedia, and the rest of Wikimedia, have fulfilled this ideal - freedom to edit, freedom to access, freedom to opinion. For example, recently an article on Wikipedia - w:Childlove movement challenged our bounderies. Some suggested we simply delete it, a contentious VfD arose - freedom prevailed. As an archive, Wikimedia Commons (or Wikicommons as it has been recently dubbed), will test how much we can take. One of the chief questions has been, shall we allow pornography?, or even shall we allow indecent images at all? Of course, this does not only take into account sexually explicit images, but also graphically explicit images - those which you find in medical books. Beyond this there are questions such as, if we do allow pornography, where do we draw the line? Where one country may consider ALL pornography illegal, the majority may only consider some illegal - which do we go with? If we do, for example, allow pornography to feature - it is unlikely we run by the harshest theocratic countries' guidelines on pornography — as an example, it has been suggested that we draw the line at things banned by 3 or more European states. Others suggest that we put a tag on media that is illegal in some juristictions - if a user is concerned about law breaking they can toggle their Commons' account to block any media with illegal tag. We could extend this and simply have a "sexually or graphically explicit" tag (though this would not be to my liking, some cultures would consider bare shoulders sexually explicit - who do we go with here) - users would similarly be able to block the downloading of this media.

I suggest, after discussion, we hold a poll - first to decide whether we allow hardcore pornography at all. Depending upon the decision, we decide where to draw the lines.

OldakQuill 23:03, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

There should be a discussion and a summary of views before there is a poll. It's not a good idea to create policies from votes without everyone being aware of the arguments. I'll start by saying that pornography and indecency are a red herring. The real issue is more general: What kind of images do we want on Wikimedia Commons? In that respect, porn is not really different from, say, your mother's holiday photos. What is useful and what isn't? In the original Commons proposal I suggested that the key criterion is that images must be potentially useful to at least one Wikimedia project. Most porn wouldn't pass the usefulness test. The other question is whether the pictures in question are legal to be publicly viewable the state/country where Wikimedia is hosted (Florida, United States). Much pornography wouldn't pass the legality test, but in cases where it clearly would be useful regardless, we might consider using some adult verification system. I don't expect too many cases like that, though.--Eloquence


"Much pornography wouldn't pass the legality test, but in cases where it clearly would be useful regardless, we might consider using some adult verification system." This is complely false. Virtually all pornography is legal in the United States, and this is particularly true in Florida. Please don't speculate about such things if you don't know what you're talking about. --24.144.84.222 13:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I think it will be hard to find media which will not eventually be included in a project. A picture of an eraser could both be in a Wikipedia article covering the workings of an eraser and a dictionary definition of the eraser. Several images of erasers would be necessary for the different styles, different companies, etc. In regards to sexually explicit images - they could be used in articles on sexual positions, sexual pheonmenas, and dictionary definitions of sexological terms. I do not believe we should essentially restrict ourselves to just that which will be used later as we do not know what will be used later - different languages are more liberal, they may use more of the extreme media English would not use - it would be nice for Wikimedia Commons to operate seperately, as an archive - rather than just as a pet of Wiki***. When it comes to verification systems, I do not think this is a very good idea, it is certainly not legally essential in most countries. On top of this there is the difficulty of the age at which this verification would come in: 14, 16, 18, 21? Verification systems require credit cards, this begins to ebb away at the freedom of the WikiProjects. Let's not buy in the overprotective mothering-culture, if parents don't want their childen seeing things, they can ask them to not. --OldakQuill 09:26, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Going with laws would be hard, because they are often vague at this point. Then again, any other criterion is going to be vague as well, except allowing everything or nothing. My proposal would be to judge by the way the material is shown, rather than by what is shown. That is, a picture showing anal intercourse or a series showing the various positions from the Kamasutra is okay, but it should be done in a way to maximize information content, not in a way to maximize erotic effect. - Andre Engels 10:38, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I agree - but I do not think we should go out of our way to avoid eroticism. If an erotic image best demonstrates a point, then why not. --OldakQuill 11:42, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
And you just know someone is going to write an objective and encyclopaedic sex manual using the images just to make a point - David Gerard 12:42, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The vagueness of the laws is a big problem, and I think we should lean strongly toward non-inclusion for this reason. Yes, not accepting these images is censorship, but accepting images with unclear legal status puts us in a position where we can effectively be shut down if we piss off the wrong people. In this sense being restrictive with regard to porn allows us to avoid censorship with regard to political content. The ultimate solution here is to simply hire a lawyer who has the final word on whether or not an image is "probably legal". In the mean time, I think we just need to be careful, and without setting any rules in stone come to the agreement that we should err on the side of caution with these issues. Anthony 12:42, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This porn-issue can't be new; already it is possible to upload all kinds of pictures. How do projects handle that now? On the dutch wikipedia the requirement of relevancy works quite well btw; sometimes some kid uploads pictures of his/her friends, those pictures are removed fast. I've never seen a porn picture on the dutch wikipedia, and frankly I don't think it will be a big problem. Already it is required that the picture is of high enough quality, the author must be known (because of copyright-issues), and I think that these requirements will stop most porn pictures from being uploaded (without them being removed very fast). Fruggo 18:14, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think you need to run it and then decide and continually review in light of usuage... be interesting to see if pornographers bother to use as there would seem to be plenty of platforms out there.. Having said that the word 'pornography' is not that useful. I would be against taking any part in an site that condoned abusive material such as paedaphilia (including 'childlove' angles!) , especially an image site. Just as in the same breath I'd feel the same about racist material etc. Stefan, London

I think we should go with whatever the legal limits are in the jurisdiction that Wikipedia servers are located (the state of Florida, United States of America). No more, no less. Obviously, Wikimedia can`t let people put totally illegal stuff on the Commons (child porn, etc.) but as long as it doesn`t involve criminal activity... let freedom ring! --218.44.198.208 06:42, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC) (Ce garcon from the English Wikipedia)

Consider these three:

  1. Birth. Suppose I uploaded a rather complete picture of the process, with just the head sticking out. OK, or a problem?
  2. Once the baby is born, would a picture be considered child porn? How about if the baby is one year old? If a newborn isn't child porn, but a 13-year-old is, then where is the line drawn?
  3. What about breastfeeding? I know that Florida has amended the public nudity law to explicitly allow breast exposure during breastfeeding, but maybe that doesn't extend to photos of the act?

Does it matter if an image is greyscale or a bit blurred? AlbertCahalan 00:31, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are absolutely no problems with any of these. Where are people getting these strange ideas about US law?--24.144.84.222 13:49, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Gee, I don't know, maybe U.S. Attorney General Ashcroft's statements and some of the ridiculous prosecutions that have happened over the years? Florida is home to this famous prosecution even. Even if something is legal, one may have difficulty proving innocence unless the facts are clear. AlbertCahalan 00:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
1) It would be wonderful to have a better photo to replace the second one at w:Childbirth. Definitely okay. 2) "Child porn" involves more than just pictures of naked children. A naked 13-year-old in a non-sexual context isn't porn (though I don't see how it could be potentially useful to a Wikimedia project, either). 3) Category:Breastfeeding could certainly use more photos. Please don't blur or greyscale your photos; that will only reduce their value. dbenbenn | talk 02:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
One obvious use for a photo of a naked 13-year-old would be to show human development. One could have a whole series of photos, taken every 6 months over a period of 6 years, to demonstrate the concept of puberty. AlbertCahalan 00:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I guess I'd really like Wikimedia to get an actual legal opinion from a real Florida lawyer. AlbertCahalan 00:00, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] File:Sblow2.jpg

We had argued with Allstar about keeping gay porn here File:Sblow2.jpg. So, is it correct to show so frank live examples here? If there appear live examples of people killing, child porn, anal relationship between strong and weak prisoners and other crimes at wiki commons in high quality, you'll associate it with educational material? Dmitry G (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

with respect; i disagree with your arguements in a plurality of ways.

1. you are associating human sexual activity with criminal activity.

2. you are blurring the distinctions between consensual & non-consensual sexual activity.

3. you are blurring the distinction between media files that are legal & illegal for wmc to host on their servers.

4. WMC:IS NOT CENSORED! that is a basic principle of the whole wikimedia foundation & all its projects.

(5. it is reasonably clear that your basic objection is based upon your strong personal feelings in the matter; while you have every right to feel & think the way you do, as every human being has that right, you do not have the right to impose your personal preferences on others, or on wmc. the simple solution to your concerns is this: if you find the material to be objectionable, don't go & look at it!)

human sexuality is a legitimate educational topic. it is both logical, and necessary, for wmc to provide resources about this subject.

not doing so would be a failure of wmc

Lx 121 (talk) 00:57, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] On Written Documents

It has been suggested by many that WikiSource by integrated into this. They will essentially have the same function - an archive for various media, WikiSource will never take up a great ammount of space. It would be great to have both Leonardo da Vinci's complete paintings AND complete notes in Commons. Any responses to this idea? --OldakQuill 23:53, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

To me, this is the last stage of the Commons; i.e. when it has reached a certain level of maturity and the technology is there, we should approach the Wikisource community and give them the option to become either part of the Commons or remain separate.--Eloquence

Eloquence is already familiar with my objection to migrating the Wikisource. WikiSource can take up a lot of space. Currently the largest article is a French version of the third part of the Summa Theologica which weighs in at 2.7 Mb. I personally think that that is far too big for a text file, but dividing it up will not make it smaller overall. The other thing about Wikisource is that the content should remain editable to the average user. This is not a requirement for multimedia files. Although one would hope that users would respect the integrity of the original texts they could still be edited to add footmotes or links to other articles or projects. Translations or annotations are also forseeable extensions of the existing texts.

On the other hand copyright issues are equally important to both projects, and I would hope that there would be a way of sharing experiences in that sphere. Eclecticology 20:42, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The primary reason against this is that the resources on Wikisource are language-dependent, while those on Commons (notionally) are not. This is why Wikisource has long since been broken up into language subdomains. -- Visviva 07:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Including only material useful for the Wikimedia projects

Material should only be eligible for inclusion in the Commons if it is useful to at least one Wikimedia project. This should include plausible future usefulness. The Commons Community could define further criteria for inclusion, for example, if a band is notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia, and their MP3s are freely licensed, they could be deposited; if a file is highly referenced from the outside and causes unbearable bandwith costs, it can be removed. The larger and more popular a file, the more pressing needs to be its rationale for inclusion.

One project that existed at the time of submission? How about one local wikiproject on a Wikimedia project? What if I start a wikiporn project on en: and, while debate about that is going on on Wikipedia, start uploading images for it to the commons? Do we wait until the discussion on Wikipedia reaches a conclusion before deleting uploaded content? Or will there be a quarantine area here for non-deleted content that can't be viewed outside of wikicommons, while its status is hashed out? Sj 04:41, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Their Ogg files, until the MP3 patents expire - David Gerard 12:43, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Or better, .flac or .shn, which are archival quality, publis, and from which ogg can be derived when needed, preserving the original bits Pedant 20:30, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Their MP3, OGG and other format (particularly lossless) files. There are no patents on MP3 in the vast majority of the world, the US and Japan being the notable exceptions, and MP3 is the current world standard for distribution of compressed digital music. Since the licensing issues of MP3 in the US and Japan will go away soon, we should also be prepared for that and the eventuality that there will be patent issues found with the OGG format after a decade or two of use, which is what happened with MP3, GIF and JPEG. Jamesday 17:28, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)
That would eliminate this rationale: "We can provide the largest such respoitory of freely licensed material, with a quality control mechanism that other such projects lack (the community)". Eliminating that rational doesn't remove much: the proposed limitations on licenses already destroys the possibility of it being THE world's repository of reusable material. Really sad to lose that potential and ensure that some other project will be the place to go, though. Referrer checks can generally limit file availability to links only from wikimedia projects and that should control bandwidth problems should they arise. Jamesday 17:28, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If it's legal, and we've got the space, we should include it. When issues of space arise, we should prioritize by what is being used in Wikimedia projects, followed by what will probably be used in a Wikimedia project, etc. This assumes that we can't generate a revenue source from this project itself. To the extent this project can generate revenue (be it from grants, earmarked donations, prizes, or whatever), its independence from other Wikimedia projects should increase. Anthony 12:51, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the issue is not so much space as it is bandwith. I would prefer to include only material useful AND USED for the Wikimedia projects, otherwise we will quickly get to our limits in terms of bandwith. Actually, we're already there on some Wikipedia projects. -- Chris 73 02:59, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
However, Google is taking up our bandwidth I guess. The best solution would be to have a direct connection to the backbone with a huge optical pipe. --Mboverload 04:42, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
google may take over some of wikimedias bandwidth in future but who knows if that will pan out.
Also note that one of the developers/real admins informed me that bandwidth use from sites direct linking to our images is trivial atm and direct linking can always be locked down and possiblly charged for later. Plugwash 00:13, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The scope of commons is still not very clear to me. Is commons like a "Stock Media" collection or a repository only for media useful to the wikimedia projects? Let me provide a few examples:

More of the Same: take Fireworks. There are more than enough pictures of fireworks than wikimedia's projects need. Unless one has a picture of something radically different or of significantly higher quality, should more pictures of fireworks be uploaded? If someone wants a picture of fireworks for a purpose outside of wikimedia, the more choice the better (matching colors or different angle) but otherwise there is little scope in adding more of the same.

Abstract Photography: These photos would only be useful in wikimedia as examples of abstract photography itself. In that case all you need is a few top notch photos. But these photos, if there is a choice, can be very useful in other contexts (backgrounds, book covers, mashed up in artwork etc...)

Artsy Photos and other non-documentary photos of daily objects and events (crowds, empty bottles or streets, stones, landscapes etc...) : this is the same as the above, there is little scope for these as useful for wikimedia but the audience of wikimedia might make use of such images in there own work. While with some imagination one can try and consider what is potentially useful for wikimedia's projects, the idea of a stock repository is to focus on quality and let the users decide what is useful ... my imagination does not stretch that far!

In short, would images that are useful only as potential aesthetic embellishments of a potential future wikibook be acceptable? The use of the term "stock" implies yes; the body of the text of this page suggest they are not.

--Inkwina 08:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non commercial ?

See Commons:Licensing.

Do we accept non commercial pictures? There are quite a lot of them, f.e. all photos from ESA are available for non commercial purpose. Yann 22:45, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

it seems that "non-commercial" images are not allowed. -- Chris 73 06:05, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Better than words

We could use a "better than words" criterium: if a file has a inherent value wich makes it better than a equivalent text, it's OK. If not, it should be deleted. That way, we could have a way to keep out a lot of ways of nonsense and useless pictures, movies or sound files. --Comae 23:34, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That could (should?) be one possible criterium, although it is a bit vague. Anything deleted on that basis will need a vote (i.e. vote for deletion or so). -- Chris 73 00:10, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Automatic transfer of images from localized Wikipedia?

I bet that most uploaders of images to localized Wikipedias would not mind in the least if their pictures would be transferred automatically to the commons repository, as long as no ambiguities are generated, no links are broken etc. - so wouldn't it be worth thinking about what could be done to organize such a transfer?

Well, given that we can only take certain classes of images, perhaps a list of what the template that links all of said images together on each language Wikipedia it is?
Of course, in the end we'd rather MediaWiki automatically uploaded to Commons in preference to the local Wikipedia for compatible licences (unless told not to, of course).
Also, I imagine the flood of new images could be quite overwhelming to the system (the community, that is, not the physical computers).
James F. (talk) 09:55, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The ability to upload to individual wikis needs to stay because individual wikis often have more leniant stances on what terms are acceptable than the commons (for example en allows fair use images commons does not for. various reasons
Images need to be catagorised in commons do we really wan't a flood of images moving here without any attention
Given the current situation (single login seems to be going nowhere fast) i would propose the following
On image pages for appropriately tagged images on the individual wikis a "push to commons" would be added
clicking on push to commons would take you to a transfer image page on commons. If you are not logged in to commons at this stage you would be asked to do so.
the image would be moved over the original image discription page would be left where it is complete with history
an image description page would be created on commons by taking the original image description page. making a series of preset replacements (for example for template names) and then adding a header like "this image moved from the dutch wikipedia please see nl:myimage.ext for history information" Plugwash 02:26, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Language of maps and diagrams

Acholiland, Uganda

I have just started to transfer my images from the English Wikipedia to here (see my contribs for a provisional list). What should I do with images like the one to the right, containing English labels and thus not being perfectly multilingual? Do those fit here or should I leave them on the Wikipedia in question? Precedents can be found in Category:Maps (and indeed, maps are often inherently language-specific) — I'm asking the question partly because I don't understand how this is intended to mesh with the multilingual approach of Wikimedia Commons. As I'm new here, this issue might have been raised before; I hope someone can provide me with some answers and/or point me to the right place! — mark ✎ 23:01, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You can upload them like any other pic. However, if the image was created by you, it would be good to also have either the image without any text, or the source file where the text can be edited (e.g. OpenOffice.org). This way other language versions can be made easily. -- Chris 73 01:14, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! As for uploading blank or editable ones, that's a good idea — I'll look into it. — mark ✎ 19:06, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Audio renditions of text

On the project page it says:

"Better than words: All files should have an inherent value that make it better than an equivalent text. For example, uploading a scanned image of a text available on Wikisource makes no sense, unless it is the picture or scan of the original papyrus or eluminated book and serves an illustration purpose."

I'm wondering if this project, which I've only explored to a small extent so far, is the right place for audio recordings of texts, i.e. what are normally known as "Audio Books". I'm very interested in this, but wonder whether it would work. In principle and in practice, would a recording of a text held at Wikisource be appropriate here?

I ask especially because I've noticed that while there are many thousands of incredibly cool images here, there are very few recordings.

I also ask because full-text recordings - even in Ogg - would take up a heck of a lot more space than images. If people could upload recordings of all kinds of texts (and Wikisource already says it has about 10,000 of them), would the Commons have the capacity to handle the onslaught? Would people at the Commons mind having recordings in all kinds of different languages (because that is probably what would eventually end up happening and it would use huge amounts of space).

A final problem I envision is professionalism: how could it be decided if and when an individual's recording of a novel or a classical text was of high enough quality to merit being here? Would we need professional narrators?Avi Kadish 17:55, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disallowed file formats

I recently uploaded Image:United States quarter, obverse, 2004.jpg. I converted the file to JPEG from TIFF in a lossy way. I want to upload the TIFF original, for archiving. (When JPEG is replaced by some other image standard, the TIFF original should be used for converting, instead of the JPEG version.) But when I try it, I get an error,

".tif" is not a recommended image file format.

What do you think: should people be allowed to upload TIFF and other file types? Dbenbenn 23:20, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

what resoloution and bit depth is the original? png is generally a better choice of format than tiff because it gives better compression and most web browsers can show it. In this particular case though i see no real need to keep a lossless copy here as i don't see the original site going away. Plugwash 00:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Admittedly I'm being paranoid. Although usmint.gov is unlikely to go away, they might very well take down these particular images in 100 years. Dbenbenn 00:40, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Actually, is TIFF -> PNG a lossless conversion? That would solve my problem in this particular case. Dbenbenn 00:42, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

that depends on the TIFF in question. if the TIFF is 24 bit color, 48 bit color, 8 bit greyscale or 16 bit greyscale then it can be directly converted without any loss. Otherwise you will have to make a color depth conversion which will cause either loss or bloat (depending on which way you convert). Plugwash 01:24, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Ah! The TIFFs appear to be 8-bit greyscale. (I didn't answer your question at first, because I had to figure out how to find the bit depth.) So in this particular case I'll just upload the PNGs too. Thanks!
I guess there's still the question of whether to allow TIFFs in general. Dbenbenn 03:10, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The problem is much more general: Patents expire. File converters get better. File formats go obsolete. Conversion is often lossy. We should always keep a copy of the original data. We don't have to serve out the original data with a correct MIME type or file extension, thereby encouraging cruddy formats. We just need some way to store pristine data for future generations. Example: My video camera produces XviD (MPEG4+MP3) AVI files. Suppose I convert to Ogg Theora, which is today's cool format. Five years from now, BBC Dirac is the cool format and I'm not around to reconvert. You have to live with the old conversion in an obsolete format, or perform yet another lossy conversion. How can this get fixed? AlbertCahalan 04:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Any jurisdiction ?

I think this is not reasonable: All files uploaded must be free of use in any jurisdiction. There will always be somewhere where something is not allowed, so this requirement is too broad. As an example, with this requirement, we couldn't publish a picture of a bottle of alcohol because it might not be allowed in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia.

So I propose:

The picture must be free of use in all places relevent for copyright issues (where it was taken, where the photographer lives, where it is published, etc.). Yann June 29, 2005 22:36 (UTC)
That's why I introduced the "golden rule" in Commons:Licensing as it is IMHO a very resonable way within the complicated international aspects of copyright laws (although I was intoducing it at first only with respect to the question if we can consider a certain picture within the public domain). Perhapes we should place it more prominent as it is easy to remember and checkable by everyone. Arnomane 30 June 2005 11:29 (UTC)
It is more complicated than that, because there are documents in the PD in the USA, but not in the country where they were first published. For example, all works from Europe published before 1923, but on which the author is not dead for more than 70 years. There are hundreds on this case on Wikisource and probably as many here. Yann 4 July 2005 21:26 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria for inclusion

Please, I want more information about the "criteria for inclusion". --FML IconSP.jpg hi 21:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] SVG images

In meta:SVG image support and Commons:File types, it says we can use SVG file, and Commons talk:File types#Why can't we upload SVGs again?, too. But, Criteria for inclusion says "SVG files may not be uploaded until a filter is put into place to keep out harmful Javascript." . Is this text must corrected?Searobin 23:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. dbenbenn | talk 01:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Personal pictures

I've readded the

  • They are useful for some wikimedia project (for example an Wikipedia article, a Wikinews report, in a meta article, on a user-page).

To the "Personal picture" guidelines: the make the general case of "Relevance" in this specific case clearer: specifically, they *specifically allow* for use on a user page. Thanks MosheZadka 14:46, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pixel dimensions

"For pixel images a resolution of 3000 by 3000 pixels is not too big" -- Is this really true? For GIF and PNG images, the limit mentioned on page http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2005-October/032030.html was imposed, which means that a resolution of 3000 by 3000 pixels is close to being too big... AnonMoos 03:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] moved footnote

"1". Something more polished available? Arnomane 21:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When will we be able to upload other audio free formats?

The rules on the project page seem to imply users cannot upload Speex or FLAC files. Those are free formats that fall into the Ogg project, and at least Speex would be pretty useful for spoken articles on Wikipedia (and the like). Where does one raise this issue?--Saoshyant 19:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Open Computer Graphics repository ?

I am not sure whether or not this is in Wiki Commons scope: There are several Open Source Software games that create CG graphics free to use in any game project. Examples of this include Wesnoth, Open Arena, Chromium, other like Ur Quan Master (port of Star Control 2) recently saw their content made available for free, such games like "Beneath a steel sky" have a more ambiguous status...

Is it okay to upload such CG files into Wiki Commons ? They probably could only be of marginal use for the wikipedia project but have a huge utility for the game development community. What do you think about it ? --Yvanhoe 10:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adding a own point for Anti-Logos

see here. I belive it would be good to add that "official Anti-Logos" or those with any encyclopedic sense are okay, but those who are self-created and without any sense not. What do you think? abf /talk to me/ 14:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Although I sympathise, I see no way how we can install a process that filters anti-logo's (and images in general) with an objective and consistent sense/no sense filter that integrates all the connected cultural contexts. Without an objective rule, this becomes personal censorship. --Foroa 15:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Being outside project scope, except for obvious cases such as encyclopædia articles in the main gallery namespace on Commons, is not cause for speedy deletion, precisely because it can never be boiled down to a heuristic. However, one of the purposes of regular deletion discussions is to neutralise the biases of single individuals. There has been a tendency of those discussions in the past to weigh the value of an image in the main namespaces of Wikimedia projects against the potential offence it may cause. I don't think it's wrong to document this with specific examples. —LX (talk, contribs) 22:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

We should really move away from using that word, "encyclopedic". We're not an encyclopedia and every other project besides Wikipedia isn't either. We're a media repository and that's it. Yes, all our images should have use somewhere on Wikimedia, but they definitly don't have to be encyclopedic. We have many many user created icons/logos just like the one that got deleted. So it couldn't have been because it was out of our scope, it was because people were offended. If want to start (officially) deleting images on these grounds, then we need to be clear about it. That's why I started a censorship policy discussion. I agree some images (usually related to Israel or sex/nudity) cause more problems than they're worth and it isn't a big loss if we ditch them, but I object to censorship out of principle. Whatever the case, we need to know where we stand on the issue as a community. And we need a new word to use in place of encyclopedic... "wikiuseful"? :) BTW, I say go ahead and add that part since it's already in practice. →Яocket°°° 22:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Pdf files

I have been editing and creating Categories and pages for the 12,400+ PDF files that are mostly just floating out there with no links at all. I hadn't seen the Commons Scope page before and many initially do not fit into the scope. HOWEVER there are a lot of legitimate links for these notes, text, books, histories , biographies and scientific materials within Wikipedia and Wikimedia. Most of the 12,400+ files are in Spanish, German Chinese and Russian and it appears no one has gone through and read and categorized these files so I am taking on the task.

Someone is going through, however, and putting a Delete note on may of them and they are legitimate use files that can be connected to Categories and pages. Who has the authority to deal with these (sometime 6 months old) deletes or ask that this be stopped until better rules can be discussed and implemented. WayneRay 00:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay

I don't think that text material belongs to Commons: there are Wikipedia, Wikisource, Wikibooks, Wikiversity for that purpose. Scans of historical books are different story, but is PDF appropriate format for it?
Diagrams and images only PDFs should be converted to more appropriate formats (SVG, JPG, PNG).
EugeneZelenko 14:41, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes I agree now after having read the Commons Scope, My point though is since it seems 75% of the pdf files in existance in Commons seem to be peoples cv's and bios, foreign text less than a page and wikimeetings, some medical and other educational things and such and aren't linked to anything. Shouldn't an Admin who has the power of file delete just go through these and delete them? Some that have been put up for deletion are up to 6 months old and no one has dealt with them. A few of the historical books and things I have made the appropriate links to the subject already on Commons. That is part of the task I am giving myself.
Should I create a PDF Category for Things that really should be deleted pdf files' or something WayneRay 16:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay
I think the problem is many admins don't know what text files are in our scope and which ones aren't (myself included). However, the mere fact that we have so many of these files makes me think that the majority are in our scope simply because they are not being deleted by anyone else. Personally, I don't think things like these belong on Commons, but again, I'm not sure how the community feels about this issue so I just let them be. Community discussion is really needed and maybe some kind of transwiki system with Wikisource (Commons doesn't transwiki anything that I know of). Rocket000 17:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Here is an example of scans of entire old book, all text that should have been a jpg etc scan and not pdf HOWEVER as you can see it is a Wiki project so defeats the Commons upload scope. I am not justifting it just posting an example to the "mystery" I will create a category for pdf deletions and link it to both pdf files and commons WayneRay 11:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay

Category:De Wikisource book PDF From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository Jump to: navigation, search

Theses books have been put to Commons by Wikimedia's de.wikisource project. If any problems arise with these scans, please leave a message at the german language Wikisource:Skriptorium.

PS: Of historical documents, even scans of empty pages may be useful.

  • Publications in pdf format are collected in the Category:De Wikisource book PDF.
  • Publications in djvu format are collected in the Category:De Wikisource book djvu.
  • old (typically 16th or 17th century.) single sheet prints and short pamphlets Category:De Wikisource book_leaflet
  • Useful scans whithout useful categories will be at Category:De Wikisource book nocat.
  • Es gibt leider eine zweite Kategorie mit deutschsprachigen Texten Category:Scanned German texts. Manche Texte sind in beiden Kategorien vorhanden.
  • Oppose category Category:Against Commons Scope pdf files to delete. These should be addressed on an individual case-by-case basis, not lumped into a category to be deleted en-masse. Many are court documents from cases which are discussed on other Wikimedia projects, and have value as primary source references. Cirt 11:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Of course if some of these PDFs are, as described above by WayneRay (talk · contributions) - peoples cv's and bios, foreign text less than a page and wikimeetings, some medical and other educational things and such and aren't linked to anything. - then I would not be opposed to discussing each of those types of items on an individual basis and perhaps submitting some of them to a deletion process. But I think that lumping thousands of PDFs into a category with plans to delete them all at once is not the best way to go here. Cirt 12:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
PLEASE NO I meant to put them in the one main category to be gone through individually file by file. PLEASE don't think I wanted to do a mass delete. The one's that actually do connect to articles and galleries etc should be kept, but most I have found had no connection or I did some research and tried to connect them to be used. WayneRay 13:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay
If that is the case then I do not think that this type of categorization is the best way to go, if you agree with me that mass deleting thousands of files at once is not a good idea, then I would suggest that you ask that this category be deleted, and instead bring files you feel should be deleted to COM:DEL, one at a time, as you say. Cirt 15:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
OK I will go through the ones I have there and should I put {{delete or {{speedy-delete ?. Some seem to have been up for delete for quite some time. WayneRay 16:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay
Well, first I would suggest putting Category:Against Commons Scope pdf files to delete up to be deleted, because as these files should be dealt with on an individual basis just like anything else, that's not the best way to characterize them. Listing on a subpage of your userspace would be more appropriate. After that, I think that some people will object to some of these being deleted, so speedy would not be the best way to go, IMHO. Cirt 17:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the suggestions. I have moved the sub categories back into the main Category and am working on the individual files according to the deletion guidelines. I hope I am doing that properly and when the Against Scope is empty I will put it up for deletion. WayneRay 21:38, 22 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay

[edit] Missing from Commons

Commons:Deletion guidelines I could not find deletions related to PDF files in this main Commons Category? Should it be here (re: above conversation) or somewhere else? WayneRay 12:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)WayneRay

Honestly, it's something we haven't really addressed yet. The consensus is unknown. I think moving towards adding something to the guidelines, though. Rocket000 10:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Missing First steps tour

{{editprotected}}

Please add a

{{First steps tour}}

towards the top of the page so as to keep the reader who started a Commons:First steps tour. Thanks. 62.147.36.42 18:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. giggy (:O) 02:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Commons:Project scope/Proposal

If you have any objections to the current proposal, please note them on the talk page. -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal made live

I have updated the text with the agreed proposal wording. You can see the complete discussion at Commons talk:Project scope/Proposal.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Translations of new text needed

Translations of the main page and the sub-page Commons:Project scope/Pages, galleries and categories are needed. Please help. The current languages are:

  • Alemannisch
  • Asturianu
  • Brezhoneg
  • Català
  • Česky
  • Deutsch ✓ Done, but the spelling should may be checked --D-Kuru (talk) 16:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC); spelling corrected --Herzi Pinki (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Ελληνικά
  • Esperanto
  • Español
  • Suomi
  • Français
  • Italiano
  • 日本語
  • Polski
  • Português
  • Русский
  • Slovenščina
  • Tiếng Việt
  • 中文(简体)

‬‪*中文(繁體

Please indicated "Done" when updated. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:46, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] User Page deletion

My User Page was deleted because it didn't follow scope. User page are universally seen as places for the User to describe themselves. Since when does a User Page ever follow the scope of the project it's within? Wjhonson (talk) 06:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Responded here. --Herby talk thyme 07:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
I see you have requested undeletion, which is the right place to discuss this. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 07:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bona Fide

I changed the many bona fide into "good faith" in this page, as "bona fide" is a latin expression. This mannerism oppose the informative purpose of this page and make it harder to understand. (also aiming at non native english speakers not used to this expression usage) Lilyu (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that for most non native English speakers, "Bona fide" is better understood than "good faith". --Foroa (talk) 17:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Surely "bona fide" is known to most people? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fakes or misrepresentations

Are false descriptions allowed? What about absence of a acknowledgment of media that misrepresents its subject? For example, what about an image of something that is deliberately faked, but the description doesn't indicate that or indicates that it is real? I don't see this specifically covered here. —Danorton (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-educational maedia files

Form com:sope:

"File in use in another Wikimedia project

[...]
An otherwise non-educational file does not acquire educational purpose solely because it is in use on a user page (the "User:" namespace) of another project, but by custom the uploading of small numbers of images (eg of yourself) for use on a personal user page of another project is allowed."
Maybe it should be there should be a seperation from "legitimately in use" (moreover an exact deffinition what "legitimately in use" (short "liu") really means (In my opinion "liu" could also mean that you upload a media file and supersede another file by yours just because it's your file even the other file was a bit better - in this special case your file would be also educational))
Maybe to the quotation above should be added (on com:scope) that non-educational file[s] does not become educational, because they are used in an wikipedia article.
--D-Kuru (talk) 21:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The definitions explicitly state that a media file that is in educational use on one of the other projects of the Wikimedia Foundation is considered automatically to be educationally useful. Have I misunderstood your comment? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
Please see related discussion at Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Michael Lucas to David Shankbone on the Iraq War.ogg. You've perfectly understood the question. -Nard the Bard 22:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
@ Nard: Next time leave it up to me to say what I think and what I don't!! The discussion on com:del is not more that a mirco segment. Pointed out that you don't know anything about the other segments! The segment on com:del was one of the last ones and it may looks as if I just do it because of the noted discussion. This del-discussion is not the first and not the only example for a "it's used on wikipedia, -> automatically educational + not deletable" (copyviofiles excluded)
@ MichaelMaggs: You missed a bit: It's good if an educational file is in use. A non-educational (short non-edu) file used on user pages is out of scope, but I would like to add that also non-edu files used in a wikipedian project does not become in scope. For example: A ego-perspective-video of a drunk person walking down a pavement, falling down and hurting him/herself is used on en:pavement to show how a pavement looks like (if you're drunk or generally) and on en:Alcohol to show what can happen if you get drunk. I would say that this kind of media is not in scope, because it's neither good to illustrate pavements nor to show the effects of alcohol, because of the ego-perspective (If you see the person just from outside it may would get deleted, because it infringes the persons personality rights). If the person wats to share the video with the rest of the world s/he can use youtube. Of course you can say that this media is educational, but I don't think that such files are in scope.
Maybe there should be added what is "educational enough" for commons. Moreover it should (if not even must be) included what nmakes a file "not lawful for Commons to host on its servers in Florida".
Two more example: 1) Photos of private parties are out of scope even they show how a party could look like (which would be an educational content). If you want to upload you images you can use flickr istead. 2) Hard porn, animal porn, etc. is also very educational, but out of scope and I also think not lawful for Commons.
Please correct me if you think that I got something wrong.
--D-Kuru (talk) 18:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, the policy is that we do not have an "educational enough" restriction, and that generally use in good faith on any WMF mainspace page is by definition considered educational enough. That is not accidental: it is deliberate policy, worked out over several years and it has wide acceptance here. You are welcome to suggest the policy should be changed, but to be honest I think that it works very well as it is. By effectively leaving it to individaul projects as to what they consider "educational enough", we avoid all sorts of political/nationalistic/religious arguments here, and we also avoid setting up Commons as some sort of uber-arbiter as to what other wikis can and cannot do. Some wikis do not allow local uploads, so would be stuck if we arbitarily told them that an image was not "educational enough" for their project, contrary to the wishes of the local community. So, generally, we try to avoid value judgements here, though we do enforce copyright restrictions rigorously, and we delete images which are not lawful to host in the US. The main exception to the rule "it's used on wikipedia, -> automatically educational + not deletable" is where an image is in bad-faith use on Wikipedia, eg where it has been forced into some unpatrolled page just to attack another editor, for example. That is very rare, though. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:43, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
I know that there is no educational enough-clause (may it's better, because of the different opinios it would be a waste of time with no ending). Maybe it's possible to reduce the grey areas of the text: fe. 1) "The fact that an unused pornographic image could theoretically be used to illustrate an article on pornography does not mean that we should keep all pornographic images" This sounds like a big sponge where the beginning and the end can't be figured out. You'll find everytime a reason to keep an image even we have enough of them. If you just think about it for a while you discover why there should be more pictures of erected penis. 2) "An otherwise non-educational file does not acquire educational purpose solely because it is in use on a user page [...] by custom the uploading of small numbers of images [...] is allowed." how much is "small numbers of images"? 2, 5, 10, 20? Does it have an effect on this number if I uploaded 10.000 useful and educational images to commons? If yes: I'm I allowed to upload 50 even 100 images?
"and we delete images which are not lawful to host in the US" is there any webside where I can find the information what is allwoed?
--D-Kuru (talk) 13:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] may be added

I quick searched for, but I didn't found (but may should be added): I think that raw text on userpages are also out of scope (fe. listing more than 400 favorite fictional characters even you've allready listed them on your en.userpage)
--D-Kuru (talk) 21:28, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

edit: Tell me if it's allready in there
If it's not: could be included where the text says the you musn't use Commons in flickr style by uploading all your private images.
--D-Kuru (talk) 21:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
It is in COM:PSP#User_pages.2C_galleries_and_categories ChristianBier (talk) 00:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean "Private image or other file collections of no wider educational value" in "Non-allowable user page/gallery/category content"? Would be supportet by "Using Commons solely to chat with your friends, create personal profiles, etc, is outside Commons' scope." Commons:What_Commons_is_not#Commons_is_not_a_social_network
May should be added on com:ps to aviod that people don't know it and because people usually don't like to read all the subpages.
--D-Kuru (talk) 11:54, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Review of policy

Mike Godwin has recently commented on the deletion of this image which has prompted a discussion of our de minimis policy, with links to the policy here. Please join in at Commons talk:De minimis/Public scenes. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Useless but harmless

I came across a whole crap-load of these backdrop tiles (skip the ones at the beginning). You can see them all on User:Nevit/gallery2008. I'm curious as to what others think about these as it relates to our scope. In my view, almost all of these are out of it as having no "educational" use, but what would deleting them solve? Nevit is a highly valued user and has made countless contributions of all kinds (including FPs and QIs). He keeps these little works of graphic art well organized and does not cause needless work for others by them being here. I see no obvious benefit for deleting these. And, as always the case when mass deleting people's work, we run the risk of losing great users. (BTW, I don't mean to single out Nevit, he just happened to provide me with a good example to illustrate my point.) Rocket000(talk) 09:25, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

KEEP i appreciate your logic re: keeping nevit & others engaged in the project. however, i disagree with your assessment of "useless but harmless". without going into a complete debate about WMC project scope, i think such patterns can fall within the criteria of both useful & educational. they serve can potentially purposes both as examples of illustration/patterns/art design, & as a general-use media resource, for people working on graphical design.

Tangentally, i think we should consider adding/defining a new category(or categories) of "usefulness" on WMC, for such things; it could include: patterns such as these, other media that would be considered as "building blocks" in creating a larger media object, samples of surfaces & audio, etc.

we might also consider defining a grouping for (for lack of a better way of wording it) "obsessive-study" collections of media. i.e.: extremely detailed sets of media studying single subjects. that could mean both mass quantities of media on a a narrowly focused subject, & extremely detailed/close-up media; say fine detail pics of a type of woodgrain, or an art object, or the accoustics of a particular concert hall, etc...

(i'm a bit tired & burnt out right now, will return to edit my post later)

Lx 121 (talk) 08:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that these could potentially serve as examples of illustration/patterns/art design, & as a general-use media resource, for people working on graphical design. I would keep them, especially as they are from an established user. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Well I didn't mean to present this as a potential deletion request or anything. Of course I would keep them. I was simply interested to hear how people would rationalize keeping them. I know some can be used as examples, but just like penis images, we don't need that many. This relates to Lx 121's post below. Rocket000 (talk) 05:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Cross linking related VP post: [1]. I'm thinking we might need to have something here about not applying this policy to the letter all the time. I would hate to think it's being used to limit potentially useful images just because they don't have an obvious and immediate educational use (like the ones I linked to above). After I said the following I starting thinking that, if it was true, maybe we should have something in the policy itself: I don't think COM:SCOPE was meant to limit our artistic side, as much as it is to limit our personal image side. There's a big difference between those, and it's not the educational thing, but the reusability. Clipart is made for people to reuse it and people will find uses for it. They probably won't for personal photos of your family on vacation. Rocket000 (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] On the wording of the policy page

i have objections to the wording on this policy page:

in several places the wording on the page goes out of its way to distinguish sexual content (of types that are acceptable within wmc policy criteria), from non-sexual content (also acceptable within wmc policy criteria). this creates a fine shading of distinction, and creates the possibility for a kind of backdoor censorship, which IS NOT a part of wm policy.

i.e.:

The fact that an unused pornographic image could theoretically be used to illustrate an article on pornography does not mean that we should keep all pornographic images

&

5.1 Censorship
Files and other material which are not lawful for Commons to host on its servers in Florida will be deleted on sight even if they otherwise fall within Commons scope as set out above. However, Commons is not censored and does quite legitimately contain content that some readers may consider objectionable or offensive. The lack of censorship means that a lawfully-hosted file that is within scope will not be deleted solely on the grounds that it may not be “child-friendly” or that it may or does offend you or others for moral, religious, social or other reasons.
The counterpoint to that is that the statement “Commons is not censored” is not a valid argument for keeping a file that falls outside the permitted Commons scope, as set out above. Photographs of nudity and male and female genitalia are sometimes uploaded for non-educational motives, and such images are not exempt from the requirement to comply with the rules on scope. Often (but not always) such images add nothing educationally distinct to the stock of such images we hold already, and hence fail the test of being realistically useful for an educational purpose.
A balance has to be struck between on the one hand accepting legitimate new high-quality educational content that some may find offensive, and on the other allowing Commons servers to become swamped with large quantities of quasi-pornographic images created for recreational rather than educational purposes. The latter would harm the reputation of Commons as a good faith provider of educational content.

the 5.1 section is nnpov-biased throughout. however, the final paragraph is blatantly so. arguing that legal nude/sexual images have to meet wm policy criteria is fine. BUT talking about "a balance has to be struck", "harm the reputation", & offering subjective opinions on the quality of content that would otherwise meet WMC criteria is clearly slanting this NNPOV. if the media is legal, meets basic WMC criteria, & copyright is in order: THERE ARE NO REMAINING CRITERIA FOR DELETION. we DO NOT have a WMC POLICY: WE HAVE TOO MUCH OF THIS STUFF, SO DON'T ADD ANYMORE.

WMC IS A MEDIA ARCHIVE. intended for free use both by wikimedia projects & EVERYBODY else. we do not have (serious) discussions about the merits of WMC maintaining mass quantities of images of cars, or trains, or any other non-controversial subject matter. if we are going to implement a policy that limits the quantity of images allowed, of a given subject matter, that would otherwise meet ALL wmc criteria for inclusion, then that policy has to be applied EQUALLY, to ALL media, & has to cover ALL SUBJECTS. anything else would be a violation of NNPOV & WIKIMEDIA IS NOT CENSORED. the same goes if we want to apply a policy that WMC media must be used on wikimedia projects, to be maintained here.

WMC recently celebrated the upload of its 4 millionth media file. if we want to implement a policy-rule limiting the quantity of redundant/repetitive images, & if we implement such a rule fairly & properly, then we should be able to delete WMC down to well under 1 million images, in no time. i don't think that's a very good idea...

I have spent a fair amount of time sorting & categorizing images that were recently donated from the 2 german photoarchives. a lot of that material was redundant & repetitive. that means 2 things:

1. professional media archives DO keep mass quantities of repetitive, redundant, simillar subject-content images on file, for use.

2. if we are going to establish a policy of limiting such repetition, then at least 10% of the stuff we got from those german media archives needs to be deleted as repetative & unnecessary to WMC.

WE DO NOT HAVE POLICY LIMITING THE QUANTITY OF MEDIA ALLOWED FOR A GIVEN SUBJECT MATTER, providing the media meets WMC criteria. this post has gotten overlong; i will edit it, once i've had some sleep. hopefully the central point is clear (& well argued) lol

Lx 121 (talk) 08:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

FOLLOW-UP; ok i've had some sleep (kind of), & some coffee (too much), & i'll try & summarize my key points from above, rather than editing the previous comment extensively.
the MAIN problem i have with the wording (see above) is that it is NNPOV & it is not being applied equally or fairly; it invites censorship, & violates both the purpose & the policies of wikimedia. we DO NOT have people engaging in serious discussion about WMC having too many pictures of trains, planes, automobiles, houses, trees, flowers, etc., etc. etc. these arguments ONLY come up when the subject is "controversial", most often relating to nudity/sexuality.
THERE IS NO WMC POLICY LIMITING THE QUANTITY OF MEDIA ALLOWED ON A GIVEN SUBJECT (providing the material meets WMC criteria). WikiMediaCommons is a MEDIA ARCHIVE; we are supposed to have lots of material, on every subject. (i have spent some time sorting the images recently donated by the 2 large german photoarchives; there is VERY great deal of redundancy & repetition in subject matter).
the purpose of wmc is to provide media "raw materials", both for wikimedia projects & for EVERYBODY who wants to use the material, for ANY (legal) purpose. it does not matter if we have "a lot" of media on a given subject. it does not matter whether all the items are being used on other wikimedia projects or not. the purpose is to stockpile media resources for POTENTIAL use.
personally, i don't think we should have a policy limiting the quantity of media allowed on a given subject; that would be a bad/stupid idea. BUT IF we are going to implement such a policy (after free & fair discussions, votes, etc). IT NEEDS TO BE APPLIED EQUALLY, TO ALL MEDIA, COVERING ALL SUBJECTS. right now, we don't have that; what we do have is small groups of people using "well we have too much of this stuff already (which i find objectionable, so i'm just going delete any more uploads, & try to reduce the quantity of stuff already here, using this rationale)".
so we get things like this
pointy, semi-comic/semi-rude notices claiming to represent a non-existant WMC policy. these notices then get used as a blanket justification for deletions.
IF wmc did implement a quantity-limit policy it would need to be clearly defined, applied fairly & equally (across the board, to ALL subject), & the relevant notices would need to be worded more appropriately. something like:
"wikimedia has a policy limiting the quantity of media allowed on a given subject & this category is full, please do not upload anything more here, unless it contributes something new, unique, or unrepresented in the current collection, etc... "
BUT right now, there is no WMC POLICY: QUANTITY LIMIT. these are the basic criteria a file has to meet, to be included on WMC:
  1. file must be legal, both in terms of content & copyright issues
  2. file must meet certain (rather vaguely defined & subjective) quality standards. we need to be careful about this one; there should be a clearly defined set of standards here, but if we set it too high, we are going to lose A LOT of stuff.
  3. file must meet certain WMC standards of usefulness/educational
THAT'S IT
as long as a file meets those basic criteria, it belongs on here. the fact that we might have a large quantity of media on the same subject is IRRELEVANT. (the fact that some people might find the subject matter offensive is IRRELEVANT). the motives of the uploader are IRRELEVANT.
wikimedia commons is a media archive. & THERE IS NO CENSORSHIP ON WIKIMEDIA. UNLESS there is a clear policy limiting quantity, which is applied equally, across the board, "we already have too much of this stuff (which i don't really like anyway)" is NOT a legitimate reason for deletion, or preventing contributors from uploading. i invite debate on this... (so much for keeping this short, lol) Lx 121 (talk) 14:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
    • If I understand you correctly you are arguing that certain statements within the Project Scope pages do not represent Commons policy. In fact these pages define the policy. You may not agree with it, but the policy has wide acceptance within the community here, and it is unlikely that your arguments (especially the parts in capital letters) will persuade the community to overturn it. Your argument that some of the policy is "NPOV" seems to show a lack of understanding of how we work here. We are a media repository, and we do not apply the NPOV rules you may be used to at the Wikipedia sites. That is, in itself, part of the policy: see COM:NPOV. The only reason that certain types of images are mentioned specifically is that there is a history of immature males (mostly) uploading very poor quality personal content of no educational use whatsoever, sometimes as a joke, sometimes to show off. We do not have similar levels of useless poor-quality uploadings of (say), birds or street-scenes and if we did they would be deletable in exactly the same way as the images you refer to. That is all clearly set out in the policy. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
      • No the wording of the scope pages is SUPPOSED TO describe the policies that have been agreed on. in this case, weasel words have been slipped in, allowing backdoor censorship on grounds that ARE NOT a part of policy. THERE IS NO WMC POLICY LIMITING THE QUANTITY OF MEDIA FILES ON A GIVEN SUBJECT, providing that those files meet the WMC criteria. if there is going to be such a policy it needs to be clearly stated, & discussed & voted on. if there is going to be such a policy, there is very large quantity of repetitive, redundant material on here, that needs to go. this is not about "we have too much of the subject". this is about using that as an excuse to remove images that some people find objectionable. if a policy is to be applied fairly, it needs to cover all subjects, & treat all subjects equally. if that means need fewer media in other categories as well, so be it. but this needs to be the subject of open debate, not some backdoor rationale, that is not being applied equally. if images can be removed on the ground that they violate copyright or other laws, FINE. if images can be removed on grounds that they are of poor quality FINE (but tread carefully on that, set the standard too high, & a lot of stuff goes). if it can be demonstrated that the images fail WMC criteria re: usefulness/educational FINE (another potential long list of deletes here tho, if we want to set a restrictive standard). BUT this is a ME4DIA ARCHIVE; it is absurd to argue "well he have a whole bunch of stuff on this subject, so we don't really need any more". that arguement is NOT being applied to non-controversial subject matter; it is ONLY being used is cases where it serves as a convenient excuse for censorship. that violates WMC policy. btw; i had a read-thru of COM:NPOV. it is written to be MORE inclusive, not less; it doesn't say anything about "if you don't like something or find it objectionable, delete it, make up a shoddy excuse, & you're good". Lx 121 (talk) 00:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you really have to post here and the VP? Anyway, yes, limiting the quantity of certain files is policy. Saying that it's not in all caps doesn't make it true. Having a page that's labeled as policy and backed by consensus, does. Rocket000 (talk) 05:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Musical scores

Hi, are musical scores in scope, or should they go to wikibooks? I'm not talking of images of existing scores (e.g. historical), but self transcription of PD music (like, if I copy the score of the fifth symphony, make a pdf of it and release it under a free license). --Eusebius (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

That can definitely can come here as it's clearly both free and educational. Even if only one other wiki would find it useful we will still host it. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Good. I was wondering because I haven't seen many, although there are online repositories of freely licensed scores (I have to check the licenses, though). --Eusebius (talk) 20:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
I think the only issue you might come across is whether pdf is the best format. I'm not sure of the answer to that. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:28, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I know, I guess I'll have to make DjVu files, although I'm afraid the pages have to be converted to a raster format (not sure about that, I've never done that). --Eusebius (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] clearer inclusion of files and images for wikisource

Wikisource's scope can include any primary source material available under a free license. A positive example of a collection of primary images or media being used / considered suitable on wikisource would be helpful here. (and related to the confusion above about what constitutes 'educational enough'). +sj + 13:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

For instance : a donation of 20k images, many of which will not immediately be used on a wikiproject, but all of which would qualify for inclusion on wikisource, and are part of an organized project to classify and find wikihomes for these archival images. Alternately, a donation by an author of a collection of their works -- either page images of a book or scans of art or sets of audio or video clips. +sj +

[edit] precautionary princinple concerns

There are concerns being voiced about the current statement of the precautionary principle on the village pump. +sj + 07:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)\

Retrieved from "http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Project_scope"