- 1 Policy and other info
- 2 Money and Watermarks
- 3 Categorisation Watermarks
- 4 Propose a different policy for diagrams and maps as distinct from photographs
- 5 Legality of watermark removal
- 6 Historic captions
- 7 Logos and de minimis
- 8 How-to stuff
- 9 New guideline draft
- 10 Opposition to the direction of this proposal
- 11 Another reason to make it clear that Watermarks are acceptable.
- 12 A multidimentional approach
- 13 User uploading a lot watermarked images
Policy and other info
Most of this info could probably be moved to a subpage, just leaving the policy-related info or the "official text" here and having a link to the subpage with the more informational stuff and suggestions... for now I'll leave it in one place while it gets edited and gone over. -- Editor at Large • talk 06:55, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I take it that this is a policy proposal on images containing visible watermarks. Do we care about invisible digital watermarks at all? Lupo 07:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not made very clear what happens when an image is uploaded with a watermark that can't reasonably be cropped or removed without destroying the image. Should we say that such images will be deleted? Is that actually the case? I suppose often it will be, as a large unremovable watermark will usually amount to unwanted advertising, making the image out of scope. --MichaelMaggs 21:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- That is what I was hoping to have people decide :) Images with logos etc. will be deleted as they aren't free, and images with website or product text are advertising. The only grey area where we could keep images is author signatures/names. I'll add info about what happens, though, make it clearer. -- Editor at Large • talk 01:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Should discuss automatically-added on-image visible date tagging (not really a watermark, often not intended by the image uploader, but raises some similar issues...) AnonMoos 01:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- It actually is added, in comment markers. I wasn't sure about having that as part of a "policy" per se, we don't want to delete every good image that happens to have a timestamp... could be added to a possible subpage? -- Editor at Large • talk 01:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Is this a hard policy to adhere to? I thought Commons was supposed to accept images as long as they are legal. I have a lot of good photos from Nepal (with date/time stamps). I was under the impression it was up to the end user to decide on usage, these photos may get used outside of Wikimedia projects. --MMuzammils (talk) 16:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Money and Watermarks
Okay guys, This is a delicate theme. Are watermarks required for banknotes? How are banknotes supposed to be used in printed and electronic media. Every country seems to have a different policy on that. Wikimedia could get into trouble when people begin to use the images hosted here for counterfeit money. In 2003 the EU has issued a policy that might comply (or not) with other countries:
- a well readable watermark at least 75% of the banknote in width and 15% in height
- low resolution scan (72ppi)
Hope we can find a generall way to collect the currencies of the world here. Or at least set a strict system of rules concerning images of money on a Free International Website like Commons. --Yamavu 12:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Русский: Оправдывать нанесение на изображение банкнот (10 долларов США и др.) надписей "Образец" - глупость, ибо у любого фальшивомонетчика в руках будет настоящая банкнота, зачем ему скан из Википедии - он что, совсем больной на голову, даун?--Vizu 14:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry I don't speak Russian. I think you said that any real money in the hands of a counterfeit would be a template. Thanks for that, I was getting a bit too much into it, seeing things a bit too paranoid. But the question is still Are watermarks required for scans of banknotes on Wikicommons? --Yamavu 17:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Спасибо. Я думаю, что я был параноиком. Тем не менее этот вопрос должен быть дан ответ.--Yamavu 10:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Unless there is a specific legal complaint, Wikimedia should not boulderize its images preemptively. It reduces the ability to "reuse" them for legitimate purposes (e.g., graphic design, illustration, etc.), while in no way cutting down on illegitimate purposes (if we can scan a five dollar bill at high res, so can everyone else). It takes a lot more than a straightforward scan to make convincing fakes. Making unconvincing fakes is done easily but carries with it a high risk of being caught. I don't think we need to worry about people who know how to make convincing fakes—they will make them without Wikimedia scans. --18.104.22.168 12:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
This was in relation to a discussion begun on Wikipedia Village pump (policy) about an editor's image collection either being edited to remove a watermark. Although the Photographers name did appear in these shots the purpose of the watermark was for categorization - containing the Class of the Train, The Train ID, The Location and Date that the Photograph was taken. In historical collections and photographs these type of watermarks are often left untouched, and to my knowledge it is quite common in particularly large collections on a subject or in historical photographs to find such marks - should we be setting a higher threshold for newer collections to remove these categorization watermarks or have the same threshold in removing/retaining them? As I stated on the Village Pump page, IMHO we should look at clarifying policy to retain for the same artistic/informative purposes they were originally included and whilst other editors may wish to produce a cropped/edited version this should not supersede the original. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 16:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Propose a different policy for diagrams and maps as distinct from photographs
All the references to images on this page seem to be about photographs. Yet a photograph is something that can be captured in a split second at a chance moment, though certainly it sometimes take a long time to set up that choice moment. However a signature on a photograph is not in the same category as the name visibly appearing on a diagram or map by an illustrator and draftsman who has laboured hours to create it. A photographer can hardly be called an AUTHOR because they are not creating the scene or object they are imaging, whereas illustrators and draftsmen must be called an author because they are CREATING the image. They are not capturing something but making it. This current policy against signatures will result in a paucity of diagams in this encyclopedia: it will be just a lot of snapshots. All we'll end up with images of accidents whereas Diagrams and maps illuminate eternal ideas and hence demand different treatament. If I put up a quotation from a literary author you would insist it be visibly ascribed, would you not? Kildwyke (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
- Your view of photographers as not being real creators is antiquated (this is particularly false in studio photography). The policy exists because the credit distracts from the main purpose of illustrating the topic, and this does not change for diagrams. It is true, however, that author names are sometimes less distracting in diagrams that already contain a lot of text. Still I would prefer to retain the present policy, and I have personally removed author names from hundreds of diagrams and illustrations. We retain author names where the signature itself has educational interest (although even in that case we may have two versions of the image, for different purposes). Dcoetzee (talk) 08:50, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Legality of watermark removal
I added a section about historic captions and signatures after having read Commons:Village_pump#Watermarks, noted above. In the spirit of Commons:Overwriting existing files I think we should have both versions, as both versions seems to be useful (that point of the proposed guideline does not seem to be controversial). Thus it is unsuitable to treat such text as watermarks. --LPfi (talk) 07:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Logos and de minimis
Commons:Watermarks state that an unfree logo will render the file unfree and that the file will be deleted unless the logo is removed. I am puzzled. Isn't such a logo de minimis in most circumstances? And isn't it good to have the image here until somebody with the time, interest and skill comes around and removes it? I suggest we use a little milder language. --LPfi (talk) 07:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
New guideline draft
I thought the old guideline draft was really rather poor - far too wordy, far too unclear. So I made a new one, at Commons:Watermarks (the old one is at Commons:Watermarks/old draft). What do people think of that? (NB this is inspired by the current Commons:Village_pump#Watermarks discussion.) Rd232 (talk) 15:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Opposition to the direction of this proposal
As I have stated in the discussion on VP, I feel that the project is set up to provide educational material, and thus at no time should freely licenced educational material be deleted (and definitely uploader should not be blocked) when no alternative exists. In many ways it is akin to the proposal to block for blurry images, but even worse (nobody can "unblur" images, but watermark could at least potentially be removed).
But it's no good to complain without proposing something, so:
- I propose to state clearly that once an alternative with no watermark that is at least as good appears, than the media damaged by watermark can be deleted.
- I propose to completely remove all instances of "not acceptable" (with the exception of possible non-free watermark, that would create a non-distributable derivative work, and that note should really also be added to COM:L).
- A mention that watermaked image cannot become "quality image", "image of the day", etc; should be added.
- I support these ideas, the only place we differ is the QI and IOTD, I figure that they wouldn't make it anyhow, and if they were going to, then there would be good reasons, basically, I'd leave it up to the people who choose those images rather than give a minority a stick to beat the crowds with.
- Incidentally, have a look through my recent uploads to see what is possible in regards to watermark removal today. (some people are behind the times on technology) Penyulap ☏ 10:45, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Well, what I wanted to do with the redraft was simplify, as a platform for discussion and development. I have some sympathy for the view that as long as watermarks are not obviously promotional, they should merely be discouraged, not banned, and I think that attitude somewhat colours the redraft. If that's something people agree with, we can try and make that more explicit. Rd232 (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- NB we don't generally delete media that are superseded, and I don't think that this should be changed for watermarked media. Rd232 (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- I do agree with that and found the fact that discouraged came under the heading of unacceptable a little confusing so have made it a little more explicit. Obviously if there's disagreement it can be reverted. As with my previous comments on the subject, I believe that some watermarks either on historical works, certain types of work (postcards for instance), or on recent works that contain useful information (detailed categorisations for instance) should be retained as a separate image no matter how good the corrected version is. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 23:53, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
Another reason to make it clear that Watermarks are acceptable.
A multidimentional approach
Currently there are just words "acceptable" "unacceptable" etc, that are being considered. However, I feel that this really makes it more difficult. I would argue that it would be much better to create a 2D grid showing +/-.
|Type of watermark||New user created uploads||Newly copied from free sources||New versions of existing images|
User uploading a lot watermarked images
User:Ment481 is uploading a lot of images watermarked with "zonawar.ru". I'm not sure if any policy has been reached in this matter... The watermarks in these images are relatively faint though. Someone not using his real name (talk) 10:37, 12 July 2013 (UTC)