File talk:Tripolitanian Front.svg/Archive 2

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Where is Al-Qawalish?

Could anyone locate Al-Qawalish on the map, please? Mikael Häggström (talk) 06:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

We dont need to add every little village on map. As for al-Qawalish its here [1] --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:01, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
Not every village, yes, but every newsworthy village is not unreasonable. Al-Qawalish is certainly a name talked of in the media, so readers would want to know where it is. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

town north of Nafusa mountains

Hi, there are several mistakes in names of town in north-western valley of Nafusa mountains. First - there is no town named Badr Libya, just Badr. Town Badr on the map is actually town Tiji and Al Hawamed is village Rwais (Al Hawamed is village between Kabaw and Nalut but in rebel-control mountainous area, not in valley, its connected with village Al Majabira which is on the map). There is also town on the same road, just several kilometers north of Nalut called Takut. Courtesy of [2]. Best regards --EllsworthSK (talk) 09:07, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Also Bir Ayyad is a little further to the east (the next bend to the north on the road) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.51.122.139 (talk) 12:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks both I've made some corrections. It seems that google maps had it wrong there.--Rafy (talk) 15:46, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

New rebel offensive

Rebels have launched an attack ino the plains from the Nalut region. Ghezaya, al-Jawsh, and Takut are the main targets, and rebels claim to have taken Ghezaya and Takut and taken and lost al-Jawsh: 1 2. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:48, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Also al-Ruways, Badr, and Umm al-Far: 3. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:18, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✓ Done we still have an issue with thumbnails though.--Rafy (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

ALthough reports says otherwise rebels did not seize Badr, they retreated from both Badr and al-Jawsh after counter-offensive. So far it is for sure that they have taken Ghazaya, Takut and al-Rwais as was confirmed by James Bays [3] on his audioblog. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:53, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that's why there only is the red arrow in the map instead of an increased red region ;). For that the situation should settle as has been done before previous modifications of the map. Elllit (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
The red area has increased around the Tunisian border actually. I can't add Tiji to rebel area since we have nothing regarding that, though I think it was already controlled by them hence a direct attack on Badr with no mention of Tiji.--Rafy (talk) 19:37, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Why there is only one red arrow? I think there should be two. The second one should be from Nalut to Tiji. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/30/us-libya-idUSTRE76Q76620110730 —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 31.63.229.88 (talk) 12:49, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Very true. ✓ Done and thanks.--Rafy (talk) 14:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Attack on al-Jawsh and Badr was carried out from Shakshuk. Rebels captured al-Jawsh and started clearing out the remnants of G troops there while other units bypassed town and moved to Badr. After counter-offensive in al-Jawsh rebel units from Badr retreated back to frontline between al-Jawsh and Shakshuk while second body of rebel units moved from Nalut to Takut and later to Ghazaya and Rwais. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:36, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Al Josh was taken by the rebels today. [4] Fovezer (talk) 14:43, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

James Bays now states on his twitter account that rebel forces retreated at nightfall due to grad bombardment: [5]. Situation still is pretty fluid concerning the towns Al Josh, Tiji and Badr. Elllit (talk) 08:53, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Any new news on Tiji/Al Jawsh? 70.187.185.194 20:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Bir al-Ghanam

Bir al-Ghanam is under rebel control [6] --EllsworthSK (talk) 11:57, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

This has also been posted on the AJE live blog. So, let's keep watching it until we can say it's firmly in rebel hands. Elllit (talk) 14:40, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The rebels are definitely attacking Bir al-Ghanam, so we can at least add a red arrow towards it [7] 70.187.185.194 20:07, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed by AFP (correspondent witnessed the war-torn route north of the city. [8]) Should be added at this point. 141.211.231.229 20:20, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Zliten (2)

Zliten has been liberated according to the Guardian. "Libya rebels take Zlitan as RAF clears way after two-month struggle" --Wikiharr (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Count me skeptical - try to fool me once, shame on you; try to fool me 542 times, shame on me if I believe it. I'm going to wait for further reporting. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Id wait as well. Although I dont think that it is a lie I can imagine that it is yet another exaggeration since in article itself there is no word about rebels capturing Zliten but rebels entering Zliten and moving towards hospital and city center (what is very subjectiv term) and started negotiations with leaders of the city about its peacefull surrender. Still, if true reuters, AFP, New York Times and Al Jazeera have correspondents in Misrata, I doubt rebels wouldn´t want to show them their biggest gain pretty soon. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Zliten is not under rebel control. Rebels hold some of the city, but the town center and other parts are being held by Qaddafi soldiers. LinkLoro-rojo (talk) 15:51, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

There is some fighting around Zliten, but only in the outskirts. And recently I heard that the rebels were on the defense. [9] 70.187.185.194 05:13, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Qusbat

In the AJE live blog I've read about the town of Al Qusbat which reportedly took up arms against G and is now surrounded. I think meant is this town. Elllit (talk) 14:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I read the exact same thing [10] 70.187.185.194 20:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Qusbat is just another name for Msallata. --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
AFP confirms this - http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hOEzFMFzX6G9fG6GIGkrCQa2D-qA?docId=CNG.e7483a16e5bc523893331788ea5e6527.3d1 I've also created a page for it. 99.236.222.99 19:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC) 19:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Qusbat/Msallata needs to be red with a green arrow towards it. 70.187.185.194 20:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Msallata/AlQusbat took up arms against Gaddafi on 3 August (Wednesday night): [11] 141.211.231.229 20:06, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Bir Ghanam

Bir Ghanam has apparently been captured by the rebels: 1 2. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

See the discussion above :-) Elllit (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Heh, thanks, didn't see that... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:40, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Also there was today another offensive. From Bir Ayyad rebel started their assault on Surman road and are 20km from the city itself.[12] --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

We for sure know that there's an offensive on Bir Ghanem, so there at least needs to be a red arrow towards it, ASAP! 70.187.185.194 20:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Additional roads needed

The current map doesn't seem to show all the roads from the Nafusa region to the coast. Currently it only shows just one road from Al Aziziya to Tripoli.

Looking at Google Maps, it seems that three more important roads are needed: - from al Jawsh (Josh) to Zuwara - from Bir Ayyid to Surman - from Bir al Ghanem to Zawiya

141.211.231.229 20:26, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

The map definitely needs additional roads! At first, I was confused how the rebels would get to Zawiya/Sabratha from Bir al-Ghanem because there was only one road on the map (to Al Aziziya). 70.187.185.194 22:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Some updates

Bir al Ghanam and Msallota are in rebel hands (for now at least), though Msallota is under seige (perhaps a green arrow?). --Yalens (talk) 21:56, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, both cities need to be included into rebel-held territory. If loyalists re-take the towns, then we'll change them. And Msallata definately needs a green arrow towards it. 70.187.185.194 22:16, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


Summary of all updates needed (currently):

1. Msallata/Al Qusbat needs to be red with green arrow pointing towards it.

2. Bir al-Ghanem needs to be red.

3. Red arrow pointing to Zawiya, Sibrata, and Serman (From Bir al-Ghanem).

4. More roads added from the Nafusa mountains to the coastline, west of Tripoli.

Thank You! 70.187.185.194 22:36, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Messlata was in Libya's government hands on August 4, as it can be seen on this Yamahiriya TV video. So, we need a equivalent proof of "rebels" control of that town, dont you think?.

And in the case of Bir Ghanem, the Libyan government denies its lost, but the "rebels" claim seems to be more real than in the case of Misslata, as images of Al-Jazeera TV seems to show them on Bir Ghanem town. So, Messlata should stay green and Bir Ghanem turn red. --46.27.163.17 16:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Rebels still control al qusbat [13] 70.187.185.194 01:12, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Tiji is in Libyan gov. hands, as it can be seen on this August 5 video of this Yamahiriya TV. Also, El Jouch/El Jowsh was in Libyan army hands on August 1, as it can be seen here, so claims previous to that date of "rebels" holding the town are false. Regards. --46.27.163.17 16:49, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Re "claims previous to that date of "rebels" holding the town are false": Clearly you have never heard of something called a "counterattack"... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
First of all: Libyan State TV is as much not reliable as as feb17.com or Free Libyan Radio or twitter.
Other then that:
  • I must say the information from Msallata are very sparse and all are based on claims from someone inside the town.
  • Bir al-Ghanam was reported under rebel control by Zeina Khodr for AlJazeera. She also reported an counter-attack but no result of it yet.
  • The situation fromTiji has last been reported by James Bayes for AlJazeera as surrounded and an issued ultimatum or something. This was on August 1st.
  • James Bayes also reported Al-Jawsh shortly under rebel control who then drew back because of bombardment. This happened also on August 1st.
This is what I remember. The map shows almost everything correctly. I support the idea to draw some more streets leading north. It actually improves understanding and wouldn't make the map harder to read. Elllit (talk) 17:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Both Tiji and al-Jaws and drawn on the map in the green field, ie beeing held by pro-G forces. As for Bir al-Ghanam, al-Baghdadi said it was under pro-G forces control, rebels denied this claim and no independent verification of both these claims exist as of now. Mind you, al-Baghdadi said the same thing hours after rebels took al-Qawaleesh. As for Jamahiriya TV, they have habit of showing archived footages as they did several times before. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:35, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Loyalists retake Bir al-Ghanem - needs to be green. http://ria.ru/arab_ly/20110807/413197673.html

This is just a government claim (zenga zenga!) at the moment. We will wait for independent confirmation. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:43, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Rebels are still in control of Bir al-Ghanam, but are under heavy attack: 1. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

This map needs the road to Surman added, and the rebels should control at least as far north as Bir Al-Ghanem (Claim was they got within 20 km (see: http://www.saigon-gpdaily.com.vn/International/2011/8/95513/), but are consolidating @ around 50km from Surman http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/201187133915428.html) This would put the rebels around where the road bends a bit to the east, slightly north of Bir al-Ghanem. Grant bud (talk) 20:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC) But basically I agree with the updates mentioned by "70.187.185.194 22:36" except for point Point 3, which should have red arrows pointing from rebel-controlled Bir Al-Ghanem to the north, and green arrows pointing from the North to Bir Al Ghanem. Also there should not be arrows pointing to Surman as there it seems as if the Rebels are consolidating their position there. And Sibratah isn't even being mentioned at this point.

I reverted back to an old version which led to the deletion of the arrows to Tiji and Al-Josh in order to put Bir al Ghanam in the red. You could reposition teh arrows there if you want (I'm not sure that offensive isn't stalled, but oh well). Also, we need to make Msallota red, with a green arrow to it, a red arrow north from Bir al Ghanam, and a green arrow south TO Bir al Ghanam. --Yalens (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted back to the old version again (reverting Night) because it looks like the offensive to Tiji has been stalled in order to "avoid tribal conflict". --Yalens (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
It wasn't just the arrows but also the increased red area towards Tiji (Ain Ghezaia and Rwais) and Al-Josh. I prefer to keep the "old" version for now. And please discuss before revert. Elllit (talk) 20:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Aside of removing territory which is under rebel control and arrows you once again made mess in names of the towns which were already corrected by Rafy. If you want to extend rebel territory to Bir al-Ghanem edit it using Inkscape. It´d do it myself but I find it unable to extend the terrotirial gain or adding roads while not messing something else up but not remove it or just wait till Rafy will have time to do it himself. It´s not like he is beeing paid for this. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
Yeah I left him a message. Review of what we (now) need done: red on Bir al Ghanam, red on Msallata, green arrows at both, red arrow from Bir Ghanam to Zawiyah, possibly remove red arrows at Tiji. Please update. --Yalens (talk) 00:58, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done Bir al-Ghanam taken by rebels, removed arrows toward Tiji and al-Josh as assault has stalled for the moment, and added roads from mountains to coast. I didn't do anything to Msallata because we really don't have a reliable source that confirms it, just the word of rebels. I also didn't add arrows toward Zawiya or Surman because we don't know if rebels are actually advancing yet or just surveying the roads ahead. Fovezer (talk) 02:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for updating the map! However, I think we have enough sources to confirm that the rebels are in control of Msallata. 70.187.185.194 03:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

What we have is a bunch of sources quoting the same rebel. We really don't have any info on the town and who exactly controls it. With Bir al-Ghanam, for example, Al Jazeera and AFP journalists have confirmed the rebels hold it. I'll keep an eye out for any more news, but for right now, we don't have anything concrete to go on. Fovezer (talk) 04:47, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
You can't reasonably hold towns in rebel territory to the same standards as those in Gaddafi-land. Media access is very restricted in the green areas of the map, and waiting for "independent confirmation" there is like waiting for the sky to turn purple. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:37, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
The problem here is we have one rebel saying it, and the rebels are prone to exaggerate just like Gaddafi is prone to flat-out lie. I know if Msallata is in rebel hands, it's on an island in Gaddafi territory, meaning no independent journalists can get there. So what we have is an unknown situation, and it's difficult to base a map on that when so many facts are unknown. Fovezer (talk) 13:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but how about adding a green arrow towards Msalatta, because we at least know that Gaddafi forces are besieging it. Just a suggestion to symbolize that there is some military activity in the town. 70.187.185.194 07:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, if that is the consensus, I will add it. I just have a hard time taking rebels word for what is going on in a city or town. They tend to overexaggerate. I have to wait until I get home from work, so we'll see if something else comes up in the next few hours. Fovezer (talk) 13:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I agree we should be cautious making changes, but there were not only sources about the rebel information but also information regarding the proceeding few days.

Wow so much developments in two days! I have added more roads and put Msallata under rebels control. I think two unrelated reports from AFP and AP are suffice to give some credibility to what is being reported.--Rafy (talk) 13:14, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Add Bir Ghanam to rebels, too. I did everything you did, but some shmuck reverted it. Fovezer (talk) 13:17, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, please NEVER revert the map because, more likely than not, you will destroy some other changes too. 70.187.185.194 15:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Just updated the summary because it looked like it hadn't been updated since early March. 70.187.185.194 21:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Is Al Qusbat still under rebel control? 69.235.80.27 20:40, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Bir al-Ghanam

Due to a (disruptive, IMO) revert by User:Cetrino, the map does not reflect the recent capture of Bir al-Ghanam by rebels. This is a rather important development in the conflict, and the map really does need to reflect it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:52, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Hm, as far as I can see Bir al-Ghanam is in red territory. --EllsworthSK (talk) 19:10, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
It's in the faded-out region, which was what was previously understood to be frontline Gaddafi-land. Fovezer's update made it clear the progress of the advance. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
Seems to have been silently fixed by Rafy's recent edit, though Fovezer's version had a greater red range around Bir al-Ghanam. --NetRolller 3D (talk) 21:00, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
I went ahead and fixed it. Should be all good now. Fovezer (talk) 21:49, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Could someone add a date for this town. I think this was a turning point in this war.

Reliable information + disclaimer

Please see my post at File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg#Reliable information + disclaimer. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:40, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Opposition progress on Bir Al-Ghanem front

So according to the Washington Post, opposition fighters are now 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of the coastal town of Zawiya and 3 miles (5 kilometers) south of the town of Surman, and they made progress along the road to Az-Aziziya as well. --70.91.205.225 21:35, 10 August 2011 (UTC) NATO says airstrike in Libya killed troops, not civilians as state-run TV claimed (08/10/2011).

I think that the best way to show the advances is to enlarge the red area around Bir Al-Ghanem and to make the highways red, along with adding red arrows. 69.235.80.27 22:59, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh P.S., I have an article that says the same thing: [14]

These are all claims by opposition leaders. I understand that reliable information are scarce but that shouldn't mean that we have to endorse every single opposition claim. I will update if consisted reports are provided.--Rafy (talk) 00:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I will provide sources regarding this topic whenever I see them. 69.235.80.27 01:43, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Date should be added to Msallata. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:12, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 13:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's another source stating opposition progress towards Zawiya: [15] 70.187.185.194 15:31, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Please guys, we can edit map only when we have confirmed some advances, meaning they are verified by correspondents on the ground. Not before (hence why I am against adding Msallata to the map). However there was some reported and verified progress today - Reuters reported from Shalgouda which is on crossroad from Bir al-Ghanam to Aziziya/Zawiya [16]. If they will verify progress in Nasr than we can add it as well. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:19, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
I concur with Ellsworth. (Also with the Msallata opinon.) I've read Zeina Khodr's tweets about Nasr and Vadi Al Hay but as of now there was no report on AJE or somewhere else. Elllit (talk) 17:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

We have this source from Reuters from village SHALGHOUDA, http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE77A0UN20110811?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0 which here http://wikimapia.org/#lat=32.3831508&lon=12.6653481&z=13&l=28&m=b&v=8&search=Shelahuda Boniek1988 (talk) 16:34, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Here is a list of other maps that is quiet useful. http://egyptday1.blogspot.com/2011/08/26-maps-collection-of-maps-from-first.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Egyptday1NowWhat+%28EgyptDay1%2C+Now+What%3F%29

In particular I like: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gL_EJ3yfTbM/TkFt5FBiZzI/AAAAAAAAAdE/basyKFVegi4/s1600/368586211.jpg but this doesn't include todays gains, which have the Rebels past Nasr and 25 km from Zawiyah (which seems to be confirmed by Reuters), with other sources saying the rebels claim to be within 5 km from Surman.

Nasr and Shalgouda should be added to the map so we can identify wher they are. 69.235.80.27 22:34, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done. added al Nasr and an arrow.--Rafy (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The rebels also advanced to 5 km of Serman. 69.235.80.27 23:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Good update on the map.the 5km from Serman are rebel claims... no indication from any media on exactly where they are.

✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 13:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
According to English Wikipedia, the rebels were forced to pull back from Nasr: w:Timeline of the 2011 Libyan civil war and military intervention#10 August. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 13:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
But the source it links to does not seem to say anything about Nasr: [17]. 173.70.83.241 13:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The IP above me is right; the source makes no mention whatsoever of Nasr. I think this may likely be due to an "updated" version of the article replacing the former and removing all information on the subject (if you look at the cite, you will see a different title than the present article). Magog points out the 10 August part of the timeline, but seems to have overlooked the 11 August part of the timeline, where (citing the same article) it states that rebels claimed to have taken Nasr and Bir Shuiab. I have found the text of the original article, which says that Nasr has been taken. I also found the version that says that rebels pulled back, but gives the date as Wednesday (10 August), and says that fighting was occurring there, which likely predates its recapture. In short: Nasr —> rebels. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:53, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I haven't heard anything about Gaddafi forces taking Nasr. It should be re-added to rebel territory. This is probably another propaganda that the Gaddafi government came up with, like the re-taking of Bir Al-Ghanem. 69.235.80.27 15:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I re-added arrow towards Az Zawiya as every indication is that they are mounting an offensive towards Az Zawiya. [18] That report also says they are pushing towards Surman and Al Aziziya. Zeina Khodr of Al Jazeera says rebels are closing in on Al Aziziya [19], but that's only from Twitter. Fovezer (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Tawargha captured

Per this [20] source. It is a rebel claim, but this statement: "Rebels said the offensive was led in coordination with NATO to protect Misrata from missile attacks. He said NATO asked rebels on Wednesday to paint their vehicles yellow and red" seems to be confirmed by this [21] video of the assault. I think this is enough to add Tawargha to rebel territory, but I want to see if other people agree before I do it. Fovezer (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, because I have an article that says the same thing: [22] 69.235.80.27 00:26, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Yup, more sources and video: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-11/libyan-rebels-push-to-take-town-of-tawarga-as-conflict-enters-sixth-month.html shows the offensive having started, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NhiYAcDwbI&feature=share shows them in the city.

✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

And another source: [23] to further substantiate the situation. Cite: "Al Jazeera's Andrew Simmons, reporting from Tawurgha, said it was a heavily co-ordinated operation with NATO, with six tanks involved." Elllit (talk) 20:28, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Added arrow south of Tawargha per this [24] Al Jazeera report. It states rebels are continuing to push south to try and cut off supply lines to Sirte. Fovezer (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

CNN is quoting the NTC spokesperson that the Misrata rebels have secured a bridge on the road south of Tawargha (on the way to Sirte): [25]. If true, this will put them in the vicinity of the first junction to Bani Walid, see here: [26]. On the Tripolitanian Front map, this would push the frontline further south of Tawargha ... beyond the small lake shown.—Preceding unsigned comment was added by 184.94.119.74 (talk) 23:47, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

In the map Gulf of Sirt Front this claims are included. Boniek1988 (talk) 03:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Gharyan

Gharyan under attack, Red arrow needs to be added. [27] 69.235.80.27 14:14, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Also: [28] Elllit (talk) 15:15, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
AJE live report [29]. Besides Gharyan rebels advance towards Azizyah Elllit (talk) 15:56, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 18:22, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
What happened to the arrow in direction of Tawargha? --93.136.68.42 19:28, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I'd guess: Rebels took Tawergha+surroundings and theris offense stopped there 79.218.33.3 19:41, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Rebels have taken Gharyan, confirmed by Gaddafi government: http://twitter.com/#!/Jonny_Hallam/status/103490514187321344 93.33.12.201 16:01, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
I can't find anything on this on the BBC site. Do you have a link at hand? Elllit (talk) 18:45, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, got this one. But this is veeery vague. A jurno from inside Tripoli. Elllit (talk) 20:07, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Other languages need updating

I noticed that the Spanish and especially the Arabic versions of this map are in need of updating. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:32, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done for Arabic. The Arabic map isn't being used anywhere. Actually the whole article haven't seen any useful editing since April.--Rafy (talk) 19:02, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Zawiya

Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr, embedded with the opposition forces near Az-Zawiya, just tweeted: "#Libya rebels clearing areas under their control in zawiyah" and "#Libya rebels in control of 70 percent of #Zawiyah ... Gaddafi forces in northeast." See https://twitter.com/#!/ZeinakhodrAljaz/status/102519074659119104 and https://twitter.com/#!/ZeinakhodrAljaz/status/102519074659119104 --Wikiharr (talk) 23:20, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Reuters also confirm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Az_Zawiyah#cite_note-13 Zawiyah's center is under rebel control. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.236.222.99 (talk) 14:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Red area needs to go all the way to the middle of Zawiya, just needs to be expanded a little bit. 70.187.185.194 15:06, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Rebels claim to take Serman: [30] 69.235.80.27 17:10, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

A map on the BBC confirms this claim: [31]. It should be safe to mark the date of rebel capture as August 15 or 16. 96.52.150.221 00:03, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Gharyan 70% controlled by rebels: [32] 69.235.80.27 17:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Another source regarding rebel capture of Serman: [33] 69.235.80.27 17:25, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

More unconfirmed captures: Agilette (Al Ajaylat) [34] 141.211.231.229 20:14, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Something going on in Sebratha as well: 1. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:45, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Ras Ajdir

Rebels are fighting for control of Ras Ajdir: [35] 69.235.80.27 00:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Also [36] --Tingo Chu (talk) 09:51, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Another source: [37] 70.187.185.194 15:03, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Attack apparently unsuccessful [38] (Reuters reporter sees it under loyalist control) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.211.231.229 (talk) 18:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

correct date format, please

Some of the dates read top to bottom. Others read bottom to top. Could we decide on one, please? It gets kinda confusing trying to follow who retook what when. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Tiji

Tiji is under attack: [39], [40], [41] --Tingo Chu (talk) 15:11, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The Reuters source is from 3 August. The last map you linked doesn't include any indication of an attack on Tiji (indeed, it shows the loyalists at Tiji attacking Cabao.) In any case, we can't do anything about it without confirmation, any more than, say, the reported uprising in Tarhuna. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.211.231.229 (talk) 21:18, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay, recent sources showing Tiji under attack: [42] [43] Time to add an arrow at least now 68.42.243.198 04:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
According to this report Tiji under control of the rebels [44]
Hmm, that article you linked to discussed much about the fighting in Az Zawiyah and Brega, but it doesn't mention anything about the situation in Tiji. --FineHourglass (talk) 16:58, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Aug 15 Updates

The other articles here on wikipedia, especially the timeline, already reference Gharyan, Sorman, Sabratha, Zawiya, at least, and possibly also Tiji under complete or mostly complete rebel control. I believe in retrospect we will say that those cities fell today or yesterday - so shouldn't the map be updated to show it? --Wikiharr (talk) 00:22, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

They reference those cities as being *claimed* to be under rebel control, which really has not been verified yet. So just wait a bit, okay? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.42.243.198 (talk) 00:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


Hey Wikiharr! If you don't like update speed of this page - Read only 'fast' changing pages. There is more interesting, but after batle usualy this page have most correct information. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.84.86.14 (talk) 06:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


Hey guys, how about you relax? I'm just trying to help the mapmakers get the latest sources and keep the information up to date. --Wikiharr (talk) 16:49, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
They've got a point, you know. Only a small handful of us here have the know-how and capacity to edit the map, and we like to wait for the dust to settle before making too many updates based on sketchy in-the-moment information. There will always be bit of a lag in updating, and it's not like we do not realise that. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Even if there is a good point involved they can state this in a polite manner. The person didn't even leave a signature.... Elllit (talk) 18:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Perfect example of why we wait a bit: even the main news organization of China gets fooled with obviously fake stories like these: [45]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC).

oh, this has got to be a joke... Why do they print such a thing!? Elllit (talk) 20:09, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
Western MSM (MainStream Media) function with statistical filters that tend to support the foreign policies of their governments - the reasons for PRC MSM to try to support foreign policy interests are more obvious. In both cases, media statements mostly filter without making literally false statements. The content of the claims is absurd, but the fact that the claims were made is credible, even though it might count as one of the absurdest series of statements so far by en:Moussa Ibrahim - almost every sentence uses NPOV language: "...a government spokesman said Monday. ... Moussa Ibrahim told a local television station. ... Ibrahim said local tribal forces had provided much help to maintain the city's security during the fighting. ... The spokesman also denied the rebel claim that they had taken the city of Zawiyah, some 50 km west of Tripoli. He said the rebel forces..." This could probably be useful factual type information for the en:Moussa Ibrahim page - its notability could be discussed at en:Talk:Moussa Ibrahim. IMHO it does sound like the Gaddafi government is getting desperate - Ibrahim is going to end up with Rixos journalists unable to prevent themselves from laughing outright during press conferences. i wonder if pro-Gaddafi forces have already retaken Tunis and Cairo...? Boud (talk) 09:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Journalists take the word of a spokesman at face value. A few months ago, there were other ostensibly reliable sources parroting claims by rebels that they had taken Sirte, when they were nowhere close (File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 2#Sirt/Sirte/Surt). I even have a falsely documented case of the Sudanese army entering Libya (File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 4#Kufra/Al-Jawf -> Sudan). Frankly, it's getting a bit tiresome to have to explain this over again every time a new editor shows up on the page demanding we give credence to the newest unconfirmed report. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:17, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we should not be too quick to edit the map but thouse unconfirmed reports that so often turn out to be false are also the first source of news and what get discussions going on how to modify the map. Sorting out the truth and lies takes time. MonteMiz (talk) 05:47, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

It's not necessarily lies. Some of it is playing telephone, or trying to clean up noisy info. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:24, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
If you look below, it looks like an eyewitness journalist has confirmed the fall of Surman and Sibratha... shouldn't that be enough? 68.42.243.198 16:32, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Azizia

It doesn't really look like a major move has been made towards Al' Aziziya, and there's been quite little reporting on the subject. In addition, according to a pro-rebel map [46], the frontline lies a ways back from the city. So I would suggest removing the arrow there, and pushing back the red blob a bit. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.42.243.198 (talk) 00:39, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I share with him the same opinion Wael.Mogherbi (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done--Rafy (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Sabratha, Sorman confirmed taken

Eyewitness journalist account today [47] mentions that Sorman was taken several days ago (the group of rebels she was attached with passed through it without fighting), and that Sabratha was taken on Monday (15 August) after pro-Gaddafi forces fled. So, dates should be added on the map to those two cities. Seleucus (talk) 01:11, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm inclined to say we should use the 14 August rebel claim as the date when Sorman changed hands, because the eyewitness source doesn't go into depth and it makes sense given the other information. Seleucus (talk) 01:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Josh

Al Josh has been taken for a few weeks now. Please update the map. http://blogs.aljazeera.net/liveblog/global/Tiji

Last thing I know is the "Ghosttown" situation where both sides are not entering. That was when James Bayes was the AJe reporter on the ground. Elllit (talk) 14:28, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Misrata Advances

- Via http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-17/libyan-rebels-push-south-from-misrata-to-cut-road-radio-says.html , fighters from Misrata are attacking towards Bani Walid, taking Bir Durfan. Another advance has taken Bowaba Aseteen intersection, and is currently in combat in Al Heesha, 65 miles south of Misrata. Since I feel the need, I will include a disclaimer that I only added this information for use by the map makers, and not to signify some kind of absolutely factual determination about events on the ground. --Wikiharr (talk) 20:05, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've also read something of the advances east of Misrata (towards Bani Walid was new to me). See the [discussion page for the Gulf of Sirt Front map]. But nothing confirmed as of now as it seems. The link above states: "There was no independent confirmation of the advances, which follow the capture over the weekend of the southern town of Tawarga". But nevertheless it's good hint to follow. Elllit (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Sebrata, Surman, Al-Aziziya & Badr

There is no attack on Aziziya currently: "The objective of the rebels in Gharyan will be to secure the city (and the supply road south), and then move north and take Al Aziziya." ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't we put a date on Sorman, since we label it? The label could be moved into the sea if it's getting too crowded inland. Kwamikagami (talk) 13:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I think we should add Surman and Sabratha to rebel held terretory, and put a red arrow south of Gharyan and south of Taworgha, since rebels claim to have taken Mizdah and advancing on the Sirte-Bani Walid crossroads? In this form this map is already 3 day's outdated.

I added the dates. I considered expanding the eastern territory south, but am not informed enough. Kwamikagami (talk) 13:34, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Msallta

I have not seen any articles regarding the status of msallata recently. Does any one know if it is still in rebel hands or if gadafi is still attacking it? MonteMiz (talk) 06:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

This seems to be another one of those obnoxious little maybe-uprisings that occur in isolated towns in Gaddafi-land which receive too little definitive information to call the situation either way, but which receive enough to bring attention to themselves initially, thus confusing all us decent editors in Wikiland to no end. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:20, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


Rebel Advance

There are indications that after the capture of Badr, the rebels kept going north unopposed and are on the verge of capturing the Watya/Okba Ibn Nafaa airbase, so the rebel are should be much bigger in that area. 79.169.196.238 16:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Would you happen to have a source? --Wikiharr (talk) 18:17, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Latest map

Great job on this update. I think everyone appreciates your hard work, Rafy, as well as the other contributors. --Wikiharr (talk) 18:46, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to join in the line of thanking Rafy in person and the others for supporting. This maps (more or less also the articles) and the handling of them here gives a vital example on how to combine a rather static and well sourced thing like an encyclopedia with a very fluid and bias-prone thing like an (armed) conflict. It encourages not to believe every first shouted so-called "news", but to be patient. Again: Thanks and keep up the good work. Elllit (talk) 19:54, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks guys I'm really flattered.--Rafy (talk) 08:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

The frontlines to the south of the Nafusa mountains and Misrata is rapidly advancing beyond the area shown in the Tripolitanian front map. Is there the possibility of zooming out to a wider view of Tripolitania? I also suspect that in the coming weeks, the military balance in the southern Fezzan region will become more fluid (or should I say colourful) ... another regional map could then become useful.

We will certainly need a more detailed map of the south if Gaddafi decides to make his last stand there.--Rafy (talk) 08:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

South Libya

It's probably impossible to independently confirm but this article [49] suggests that Murzuq has fallen to rebels. It may not be worth adding to the map lacking independent confimation but it may be something to watch for> 134.121.84.242 19:28, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

This town: [50]? I'd be really, really surprised! Elllit (talk) 19:58, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

We know rebels have been active in the area have been active in the past such as the temporary taking of Al Qatrun and some tibal clashes in Sabha. Like I said probably impossible to confirm but something watch for. 134.121.84.242 20:44, 18 August 2011 (UTC)