Talk:Horse coat colors
Rappe mit eingestreuten weißen HaarenItalic Die Bezeichnung ist falsch..sie ist kein Rappe..(bevor hier nun heiss Disskutiert wird.. das ist mein Pflegepony..welshstute 5 jahre alt)
Kersti Nebelsiek, I have no intention of messing up this page, and it is clear that you have put a lot of time into it, but it contained many, many incorrectly categorized images (Palominos are not "flaxen" just for a start), and the English language material had a considerable number of serious inaccuracies.
I am sorry you were upset, but if you take a deep breath and look at what actually was done, I think you will understand that it is mostly an improvement (and if I messed up the german language material, I do apologize)
If you look at the English wikipedia articles "equine coat color genetics" and "equine coat color", you will see that the categorizations I created and the arrangement I used here is far more in line with modern genetics research and color categories. I realize that European terminology may differ, but genetics are genetics. (For example, until they find the "sooty" gene, all "brown" horses are genetically "bays.")
From what I can gather from your profiles (I do not speak much German), you appear to have strong interests in biology in general but have very little background specifically with horses. Horse coat colors are a complex topic that has also undergone radical changes in theory since the development of modern DNA testing (particularly with dilution genes). Some of the incorrect statements you have regard statements on photographs I personally took of horses I am familiar with, and know how they are registered and classified.
Therefore, I suggest that you cease referring to the work of others as "rubbish" and instead discuss your differences of opinion here, instead. Montanabw 21:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- You didn´t diskuss it either. And the main Problem were not the differences in the point of view, but the way you changed the things, you considered to be wrong.
- The biggest Problem was that if you decidet to change something - maybe a headline, you did only half the work, which is nessesary to change it really. Therefore afterwards, someone has to work on it to do the rest of the work and I didn't have the time. And I didn't have the time to dicuss it either.
- Additionally you changed things, you simply didn't understand: Think of Pangare/Mealy - I didn't explain it in english until then, but that was, because the gallery wasn't ready - but if you simply had looked in the english Wikipedia you would have known, that it is the Gen for the white mouth.
- To the Palomino Problem: If you look at the description of the Picture Image:Silz cheval1.jpg there you kann read: "Cheval photographié au parc naturel de Silz, en Allemagne (Rhénanie-Palatinat)." - translated to english this means: "Horse, photo taken at Parc naturel de Silz in Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate" That means the photographer didn't know exactly what the color of these horses was and he didn't mention it also. He only saw the Horses once in a foreign land. Than I found this photo in the english Wikipedia in the en:Palomino article. The one who put it in couldn't have known the exact genetics of these horses too. Therefore I think he looked at the picture an thought: "This is typical for the shade of color I wanted to show." There are Palominos which look like this, and therefore I think too it was a good Idea to put this picture in there. But that doesn't mean that we could know which is the exact color of these horses.
- The Haflinger is a breed, where you can find only one color: Chestnut with flaxen. No other color is allowed and there appear never Cremellos or chestnut horses without flaxen, therefore you don't find a cream-gene in this breed. This is a breed every child knows in Germany because it is one of the breeds often used to teach children how to ride. If you look at the Haflinger-fotos, you will find there some, you would call Palominos, but they aren't. The colour of the horse on his picture Image:Rijden, harry 069.jpg looks similar to the color of the horse of this picture: Image:Silz cheval1.jpg - only the color of the legs is a bit lighter.
- If you check the possible shades of Palomino here (Colormorgans) and here (Icelandic horse).
- and if qou check the possible shades of colors of chestnut with flaxen here (Colormorgans) and here (Icelandic horse)
- an the shades of silver horses here (Colormorgans) and here (Icelandic horse)
- You will know that you only can guess the genetic of these two horses: Image:Silz cheval1.jpg
- To the grey horse, which you don't want to call grey: If you look in this text:
- Winning Colors is NOT a roan! you will find a photo of Winning Colors in the age of three and in his old age. The old horse looks white and the three year old doesn't appear to be a grey yet. Usually horses turn white a bit quicker, but there are horses, which stay dark for soo long. Therefore I think, a person who knows name, age and breed of a young horse will know if there are greys or roans in his pedigree too - and if its not a new foto he will know if it turned white later on.
- Kersti 17:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- We can't know if the owner of the horse took the photo, nor what color the horse is now. Unless the German text says "I own this horse" or something. Normally by the time a horse is two or three, like "Winning colors," it is clearly getting a lot of white hairs around the head. Another thing is to look at the parents, a gray horse MUST have at least one gray parent. If neither parent is gray, then the horse cannot be a gray,Montanabw 05:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well and good, but given that your English is limited and my German is almost non-existent, it is difficult to discuss, and some of your previous comments have, frankly, been over the top mean-spirited (calling someone's work "nonsense" is no way to make friends). The headings in English were awkward, often incorrect, and the English captions were poor. The colors weren't grouped by family and it was clear that whoever started the gallery didn't really fully understand horse colors or their genetics (I about dropped reading someone saying that they could tell the color a gray was born by the color of the SKIN on its muzzle! Egregious error!)
- Further, from your text, it is one thing to acknowledge what a caption says in another language, and for that I thank you, (per, for example, Haflinger) but on the other hand, you really don't know very much about horse colors -- neither the flaxen, "sooty" nor the "pangare" genes have yet been identified, they are only theorized. Keep in mind that images aren't always captioned correctly and some owners are clueless about a horse's color. If indeed an owner says a horse was born dark and lightened up, that is good evidence, but a random shot in a pasture of a horse identified as a certain color is not necessarily so.
- So, while your translations and explanations are quite helpful, you need to trust people who have expertise with all horse colors to sort some of this out. Some things cannot help but be opinion because we don't have access to DNA tests of some animals. I shall, however, defer to you on Haflingers. Montanabw 17:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- I dont think that my english reading skills are limited - I only use to make a lot of faults in writing - that is Dyslexic dysgraphia
It's not your spelling and grammar, its certain word choices that simply are not used in English to describe horses. (Like "race" for "breed")
- And no I don't trust your knowledge of horse colors that much.
Well, I guess we have a mutual distrust
- I read almost every single scientific article about this topic an you didn't tell me anything new by now. I know that the flaxen an pangare genes are not yet mapped - but there must be genes, wich cause these color variations - maybe there are pangare-genes which are flaxen-genes at the same time.
- Kersti 21:26, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
- You know, we need to call a truce. You don't "trust" me, and in return I don't think you know much about horses, other than Haflinger, maybe. But you and I can fight all day about who knows what. That is just silly. You live where everyone loves Haflingers, that is fine. I live in an area where there are a lot of grays, bays, ordinary chestnuts, duns, and roans...to say nothing of Pintos, Buckskins, Palominos...you cannot live in Quarter Horse/Paint horse country and not become familiar with those colors. And woe to the poor soul here who can't tell a Tobiano from an Overo (even though some horses have some really odd patterns that are a little of both!)
- My concern with these various pages is SOMEONE (maybe not you) put in some serious errors that anyone who has ever read a basic book about horses should know. Bottom line is simple: I will assume we both want an accurate page.
- There is also an attitude difference in different parts of the world. It is clear that good quality Haflingers can be very nice horses, and it appears that both flaxen and pangare appear to be true-breeding traits for them. So it is fine to describe it, but be careful about going out looking for it in other animals...in some places, (like the western USA) what you call "pangare" is called "mealy", and is viewed as a sign of draft breeding and looked down upon as a sign of inferior quality or crossbreeding in a light saddle horse--where I live, it is primarily seen in Belgian draft horses and in mules, occasionally some ponies and "wild" (feral) horses (draft horse stallions were once turned out into some feral Mustang herds to try and breed farm horses). So some people are insulted to have someone say their horse was "mealy mouthed" (a US colloquialism that also refers to a person who is a liar) unless they raise a breed that is "supposed to" have it.
- Flaxen manes and tails, while more widely appreciated for attractiveness, do NOT consistently breed true in most othern breeds, the gene, if it is a single gene, doesn't behave like a simple recessive in breeds other than Haflingers and perhaps Belgians. You can breed two flaxen chestnuts together in another breed (such as Morgans, Arabians and Quarter Horses) and get an ordinary red "sorrel." And out here, flaxen is popular, so people try...and fail...
- Likewise, the sooty gene, again if it is a single gene, is not terribly predictable, there are many shade variations. I have heard one theory that it might be a variant of Agouti, no scientific articles, though.
- Anyway, if you want to debate genetics and colors, I think the more useful approach is to just footnote sources. Two that I frequently source to material in English are:
- http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/ Horse genetics page from the UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab
- http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatcolor/coatclr3.html Bowling, Ann T. "Coat Color Genetics: Positive Horse Identification" from Veterinary Genetics Laboratory, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis.
- All for now. By the way, thank you for doing all the work to create interwiki links over in English Wikipedia. Montanabw 04:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Flaxen versus Palomino
Oh, here are some interesting photos of horses with known genetics. This first horse is registered in his breed registry as a chestnut, and is genetically a chestnut, obviously has a flaxen mane and tail, but some palomino registry accepted him even though he's really too dark to be a palomino AND no purebred Arabian ever carries the dilution gene: A chestnut with flaxen.
Now, the next example is a farm that has a cremello stallion and deliberately breeds half-arabian palominos and buckskins from him. Because Arabians never carry dilution genes, we know the dilution comes from the stallion. Palominos (and some buckskins) The young horse labeled "Zips Screen Idol" is genetically a palomino, but pretty dark gold, still no chestnut, though...then farther down the page is a photo of a lady holding four horses, all palominos, but a range of shades.
Just interesting...the line between a chestnut with flaxen and a palomino can be a pretty fine line, though the brownish versus the golden shading of the coat seems to be pretty distinct one you have looked at enough of them. Knowing the breed of horse helps even if there is no genetic test... Montanabw 05:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)