Template talk:Consent

Self-consent

Dear colleagus,

it looks like we miss a situation, when a person, depicted on the photo, wishes to express his/her content by adding a template. Probably {{consent|sel}} would be fine? Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 00:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea to me. (Although I would prefer it unabbreviated as {{consent|self}}.) --99of9 (talk) 00:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Consent to what

{{consent|full}} produces: The uploader asserts the following regarding consent of identifiable persons: I personally created this media. All identifiable persons shown specifically consented to publication of this photograph or video under a free license, including commercial use.

I think there is some confusion here, which means the parameter name "full" has to be deprecated.

"Full" implies that the image may be used without restrictions. The persons depicted however have consented only to the file being published with a certain copyright licence (which legally isn't their business anyway), which explicitly states it is only about copyright issues. They may not have waived any personality rights.

I also think there should be a possibility to consent to some but not all uses. This might be in conflict with the spirit of free licences (copyrightwise any use must be allowed), but I also find it problematic to ask people to allow defamatory use. Limited consent seems to be in line with the en:moral rights, which are rights granted by copyright law, which cannot be waived in their entirety (defamatory use of the work is included - why should the author keep this protection but not the subject).

--LPfi (talk) 09:50, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that the meaning of "commercial use" is not only a copyright matter (and nor is it just determined by the for-profit status of the organization). If an advertisement implies that the subject actually supports the use of the product they are advertising, that requires the permission of the subject. I think that's what consent|full is allowing, and IMO is above and beyond what we require of our photos. --99of9 (talk) 11:55, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

But that is not what the uploader declares the subject has consented to, which is the problem. It could be clarified, but we do not know whether the clarification applies to files (if any) where the template already is used with that option.

And do not believe we should ask people who pose for us to allow advertisements implying the subject supports the product in question, whatever the product. If that is OK for the subject, then it is OK for me, but that should not be a prerequisite for posing for Commons' photos. I think we can respect the moral rights of the subject in the same way the law (in my country) requires us to respect the moral rights of the photographer.

--LPfi (talk) 10:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I've redone the auto-catting so we can see which files we're talking about Category:Full_consent, and frankly I can't see any of them being used to support a product anyway! So I have no objection to deprecating this back to plain old {{consent}}. --99of9 (talk) 12:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Fine, that should probably do. But shouldn't there be a difference between the default (without an option, and thus possibly used for any meaning of "consent") and explicitly choosing the default? --LPfi (talk) 11:07, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

It's simpler if we don't force people to use parameters, I think the default will teach people what we want them to ask for. --99of9 (talk) 11:24, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Consent|child

In a thread discussing this template elsewhere, Jebulon brought up the idea that child subjects may require special attention. How about {{consent|child}} which asserts that consent to publish was obtained by any child subjects' parent or guardian? --99of9 (talk) 04:26, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Also here we have to be careful. Such consent is often given for publication in some context. The context implied by the template option must neither be too broad nor too narrow (rendering the option or the consent useless, respectively). The option should probably be based on the corresponding (now non-existing?) guideline, although it of course cannot mirror changes once it is in use. --LPfi (talk) 11:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The publication context is an issue for identifiable people of all ages. Perhaps we need a descriptive context-limitation field? Would Commons accept "only for medical education contexts"? What guideline are you talking about? --99of9 (talk) 11:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking about the probably non-existant guideline, where these issues are discussed. The nearest existing thing is probably Commons:Photographs of identifiable people, but it does not discuss restricted consent. I think many here would object to explicit restrictions, although most photos have similar restrictions implicitly. The issue should be discussed thoroughly, but it must be raised in such a way that people contemplate the issues instead of reacting by reflex and prejudice. --LPfi (talk) 11:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

I think we should not make the needed changes here (except perhaps a free text field) before consensus has been reached in a good forum. Otherwise photos may be uploaded with options that later turn out to be unfortunate - there is a real risk of photos being deleted because of explicit restrictions, even because of restrictions equivalent or nearly equivalent to implicit legal restrictions. --LPfi (talk) 11:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Consent|appearspublic

When applying the "appearspublic" argument, often we will not know for sure whether the subject consented to the photo's publication. Currently it produces "identifiable persons are shown who have not consented to publication", which seems too definite. Does anyone object to changing this to "identifiable persons are shown who may not have consented to publication"? I think the description of Category:Without consent could use some clarification too. --Avenue (talk) 04:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

• Agreed, I guess I assumed the worst case when I wrote it, but you're right. Feel free to change it. --99of9 (talk) 10:45, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I've changed both the text produced by "appearspublic" and the description of Category:Without consent. They both now allow for uncertainty about consent. They also now both focus on consent for publication; previously they were inconsistent as the category description seemed to only talk about consent for taking the picture. --Avenue (talk) 11:52, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Rethinking parameters

There are several things that could be improved in this template -- some very important, maybe centrally important, use cases. I think this should be addressed before the template is widely deployed (at present, it's in use on about 600 files on Commons). I'll start a list of my concerns below -- feel free to add to the bullet list. -Pete F (talk) 17:53, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

• PF: The main language is about consent "to publication of this photograph or video". But where possible (and in order to clearly comply with COM:IDENT), mere consent to publication is not very strong. We want to be able to clearly indicate when the subject has explicitly consented to more specific things: publication under a free license, open access publication on the Internet, commercial use, or perhaps specifically publication on Wikimedia Commons. While this consent is not required, it is worthwhile to record it where it exists. It also may spare us unnecessary arguments in relation to specific photos.
  • (I do think it is worth some discussion about whether mere "consent to publication" is even worth recording, as it is general enough to be nearly meaningless.)
    • That's roughly the purpose of the 'full' parameter. I would hesitate to create a whole slew of more specific criteria, lest the template become overly confusing to use. I wouldn't say that the minimum consent level is 'meaningless'. If we have a photo of someone sunbathing on a nude beach, there's a significant moral and legal (in some countries) difference to publishing it if the subject gave consent to have the photograph published. Clearly, 'full' consent (commercial and free-license use) is much more desirable, but even minimum consent is better than nothing. Kaldari (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• PF: There is no variant that allows the subject (as opposed to the uploader) to assert his or her consent. For instance, there is no ideal parameter for me to use on this photo (where I am the subject): File:Wikimedia_Foundation_Pete_Forsyth.jpg
  • I could see a use for this, but what about cases where there are multiple subjects? Kaldari (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• PF: The template doesn't appear to leverage the OTRS system. But the OTRS team is uniquely qualified to assess consent in many situations.
  • That's a good idea. We should add a parameter for an OTRS ticket id. Kaldari (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• PF: There is no parameter for "I have communicated privately with the subject of the photo, and have received assurance that he or she consents to…"
  • I'm not sure I understand this suggestion. Is the suggestion related to 'privately' or '...'? Kaldari (talk) 23:34, 17 May 2013 (UTC)