Template talk:Guideline

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Auto translated?[edit]

Why is this autotranslated? It only goes on top of English versions of guidelines. The language links should take you to the guidelines in those languages, not simply change the interface and template language. If you can't read the rest of the page, changing the template is useless. Rocket000(talk) 16:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

It only goes on top of English versions of guidelines. Check Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Guideline: It's also used on non-English pages.
If you can't read the rest of the page, changing the template is useless. It's not. If I cannot read the page and cannot read the template I don't understand anything. If I cannot read the page, but can read the template, I understand at least something. How is that useless? --Slomox (talk) 22:11, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I didn't mean to revert first. Anyway, pages with translations have links at the top which change the whole page not just the template. Having two (sometimes three) sets of links is just confusing. You were right to change this back since I didn't finish fixing this like I did with {{policy}} and {{essay}}. Now I will. Rocket000 (talk) 13:31, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, now the last couple of non-English pages that transclude this do not have translations let. But now the ones that do can at least categorize their guidelines and they won't get mixed language pages just because of their interface. Rocket000 (talk) 13:44, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
If your problem is the list of translation links, then remove the list of translation links. But I completely fail to see the point, why the text of the template shouldn't be in the preferred language. --Slomox (talk) 16:51, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree with Slomox here. This is not only used on top of English guidelines, but also on guidelines in all other languages. I agree that we should remove the languages bar, but not the autotranslation. I will revert this back. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 13:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
It shouldn't be used on the top of non-English pages. None of the other ones are. Rocket000 (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes it should, just like the other ones should. It's just not done at the moment because the other templates are not autotranslated yet. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 22:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Templates like this should only used on pages that are in one particular language—at least that's how it was until some people used it on the wrong pages, so you had a point there and is why I created a new template. There is a purpose for this. I'm not arguing that. The problem is not just the text, but also the category. It was adding the same category to all languages. That's completely at odds with our current category system and not separating project pages (and templates, etc.) by language makes them a lot less useful. Things may have changed a little, but it used to be the case that not every language used the same method of tagging guidelines/policies, not every language used headers at all (and some still don't). They maintain their own categories and the like. Merging all languages into one giant category is wrong and destructive. Besides all that, many people don't speak just one language. Many people, like me, do a lot with templates/pages we can't understand for administration/maintenance work. The interface ones chooses may not necessarily be the language they always want to see. When I go to a Chinese page, I want to see Chinese. You're not supposed to understand Commons:裸體 unless you speak that language. That's why we have translations. Come on... this isn't that hard to understand. Rocket000 (talk) 23:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I removed the bar and made the template autotranslating again. --Slomox (talk) 12:34, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
I'll change every /en use then so this can be the version to use when there is no translation of this template available... I thought "Guideline" would make a good English name, but I guess everyone's using English anyway (subpages) anyway. Intentionally making parts of language-specific pages not appear in that language is just not an argument I can take seriously. Rocket000 (talk) 20:55, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, fixed. Now this can be used as the template for languages missing one (although I'm not sure what good it'll do. If you're reading Commons:裸體 and don't know the language that appears, it's kinda meaningless, and vice-versa). I suggest making new templates in the future instead of taking over localized ones. Please don't this to other project page headers, like {{policy}}. You might like seeing pages appear in multiple languages, but I don't think most people do. Rocket000 (talk) 21:22, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I'm quite positive, that people _do like_ to see as much of a page's content in a language they can actually read. The only thing I can read on Commons:裸體, is "male genitalia". If the template would be in Chinese I would not know anything about the page. With the localized template I at least know that it's a guideline page.
And I won't stop localizing templates, if they are localizable. --Slomox (talk) 22:21, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
And a template fork is not a "compromise" as you call it in the creation comment. It's just your favorised solution under a new name. --Slomox (talk) 22:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
No, I meant the name is a compromise. You could can have this one for the autotranslated version. people _do like_ to see as much of a page's content in a language not when it's SUPPOSED to be in one particular language. Should start just translating other parts of English pages into Spanish or whatever? No, that's retarded. Rocket000 (talk) 22:38, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
It's not a fork, since that was the original intent of this template. Rocket000 (talk) 22:40, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The bigger picture[edit]

Sorry for the length... This is more about how we are localizing project pages, not the template. But I figured this is as good a place as any.

I don't think I have been explaining this well, so let me try again. If you still disagree for some reason that's not due to my poor explanation, I'll give up and not interfere. These templates can be considered a section of the page itself. Unlike image pages, there is no need to separately link to or autotranslate individual components of the pages. We do this for image pages because it's impractical or downright impossible to do it any other way, but it's far from ideal. If I was a non-English speaking IP and wanted to read everything on a file's description page (that has a translation in my language), I would have to click on a link for each template and go back and forth between the file page and the template pages. Wouldn't it be better if I only had to click on one link and the whole page appears in my language? This is how project pages (and the main page) are.

Right now, it may be hard to see the bigger picture since many pages are lacking translations. We haven't even begun to auto-translate policies/guidelines yet. In most cases, the English pages are still in development. We are currently concentrating on templates, but project pages are next. They way it will work is like this: You have a page like COM:L (taking over the shortcuts seems like a better idea than moving the English pages; a little more multilingual to link to as well), which will include the autotranslate bit ({{langSwitch}}, perhaps) that will transclude the text (and any templates like this one) in whatever the user's interface language is. There will be the same translation links at the top, BUT if we autotranslate the templates separately, those links will only change part of the page. That is, the user can never see the template in a different language without going to the template page itself or changing their preferences. More importantly, the majority of the people that view this site are not logged in (something we sometimes forget, taking autotranslation for granted). If a user wants to see a page in a specific language, the whole page should be in that language. This is especially important for non-English speaking IPs since no matter what translation they are viewing, the template that tells them if it's a policy/guideline/whatever will remain in English. A workaround would be to treat it like an image page and supply links for every template so they can navigate to the template subpage. But besides confusing users with multiple sets of links and cluttering the page, it makes it a lot less convenient for no real benefit. IMHO, only translators and maintenance workers should ever have to view the template subpage directly.

Going back to Commons:裸體, what good is it to know it's a guideline if you can't read the guideline? Unlike license tags and such, these kind of templates aren't really useful unless you can read the rest of the page. You would never have to see that page unless you wanted to read it in Chinese. If we autotranslated this template by itself, anons would be forced to see the English version regardless of the guideline page they are on. Same goes for me since that's my interface. Besides, even if you do find it useful to know if some page you can't read is a policy or guideline, you simply click on a translation you do understand (one might not exist yet, but that is no different than a template not existing, and we got this multilingual version as a temporary solution for the other way around). These templates are just like other localized project page ones like {{Archivo Café}}, {{Village pump header/de}}, {{Village pump header/it}}, or {{2008POTY/mk}}. It's like autotranslating a translation.

When trying to help make Commons more multilingual, first stop and think about the best way to do. Simply autotranslating anything and everything is not the best way. Try to view it from a common user's perspective, especially one who's not logged in. Step outside your template making box, and actually use the site for a bit. Imagine you're a visitor from fr.wp and all you speak is French. Either you do not have an account or you just signed up and have no idea how to change your interface. In desperate need of help you go to Service d'aide, but why is the intro in English!? Oh, someone had the great idea to autotranslate it. Rocket000 (talk) 21:58, 1 August 2009 (UTC)