Template talk:SOP license

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Unicode codepoint[edit]

I still think it would be fitting to submit the Unicode codepoint with it, so we can set a link to the unicode page and also for finding it in a search. --Tauwasser (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

EDIT: So i took the time and prepared this:

see below

If {{{info}}} OR {{{unicode}}} is not empty, then display "Additional information" entry in table. If {{{unicode}}} is not empty, then display link to the Unicode Consortium's page of that codepoint. If {{{info}}} is not empty, display it as well.

unicode = unicode codepoint, e.g. BF6D info = additional information from uploader/editor

--Tauwasser (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I haven't had a look at the script, but it seems we might be able to do this automatically. See Unicode code point bookmarklet. --Swift (talk) 08:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

PNG or GIF?[edit]

First of, I personally discourage the use of a lossy format, e.g. jpg. At least gif is not lossy though it bears certain limitations in some editors, e.g. Microsoft's paint.exe. I would therefore only check for png or gif image versions of the file the template is used for. The code for that would be:

see below

If other image exists, display "Other versions" entry in table with the picture in it scaled to 40px for style. Also, suffix must be either png or gif, no PNG, GIF, PnG, gIF etc. for this to work! --Tauwasser (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Radical not used[edit]

How is radical used in the template? Or rather, what will it be used for? Also, named arguments are fine, however, they might be textheavy in the actual file description pages! --Tauwasser (talk) 18:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I forsaw it useful to have radical categories which could be used to look up characters. Something along the lines of Category:Characters with the 口 radical. I'm not sure how to implement it for several radicals. --Swift (talk) 08:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Additional fields for table[edit]

Sorry, just saw that the new template uses auto-translated fields. In that case, all of the code needs to go into the other_fields-descriptor of the Information-Template as follows:

|other_fields={{#ifeq: {{#expr: {{#if: {{{info|}}}|1|0}} or {{#if: {{{unicode|}}}|1|0}}}}|1|<tr><td style="background: #ccf; text-align: right; padding-right: 0.4em; font-weight: bold" id="add_infol_ver">Additional information</td><td>{{#if: {{{unicode|}}}| [http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint={{{unicode}}} Unicode Consortium's page on {{{character}}}]<br>}}{{{info}}}</td></tr>}}

and

|other_versions={{#ifexists: Image:{{{character}}}-{{{style}}}.{{#switch: {{{suffix}}}|png = gif|gif = png}}|{{#switch: {{{suffix}}}|png = GIF|gif = PNG}}: [[Image:{{{character}}}-{{{style}}}.{{#switch: {{{suffix}}}|png = gif|gif = png}}|40px|Other version of {{{character}}}]]}}

Ok, so this should be it, I'll delete the wrong code form above not to confuse anybody. --Tauwasser (talk) 19:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

These should be fine. Go ahead and add them to the template! Let's upload test images with this template later to play around with these features.
As for oddly-cased suffixes, I don't think it's a problem to demand them in lower-case as we're already placing pretty strict requirements on the filename. --Swift (talk) 13:38, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I haven't compared these it, but
{{#if: {{{info|}}}{{{unicode|}}}| Print the {{{info}}} and/or {{{unicode}}} strings. }}
might do the same as what you had in mind with the ifeq+expr+if? --Swift (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
The following comment is in relation to a related section above. Feel free to refactor these two sections (and modify my comments) to make these easier to understand.
As far as I know, we only have static images in png. I guess they chose gif for the animations because it's not as well supported. I don't think we need to check for alternative suffixes. We should look for the other styles and (in the case of Han characters) variants. We also need to think about how to highlight whether there are variants that redirect to this file (see this discussion for details). Maybe something along the lines of:
{|
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-tbw.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-tbw.png|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-bw.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-bw.png|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-jbw.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-jbw.png|40px]]</span>
 |-
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-tred.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-tred.png|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-red.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-red.png|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-jred.png | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-jred.png|40px]]</span>
 |-
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-torder.gif | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-torder.gif|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-order.gif | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-order.gif|40px]]</span>
 | <span style="background: {{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}-jorder.gif | bgcolour }}">[[File:{{{character}}}-jorder.gif|40px]]</span>
 |}
But it will still require some switches to highlight the redirects. --Swift (talk) 14:40, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
{{SOP license|character=学|info=This is a test SOP license in use|style=red|radical=口/⻖/氵|suffix=png|unicode=5B66|strokes=8|kanji=yes|testtemplate=yes}}removing the inclusion of this since the template has changed considerably. Here are links for the version at the time and the history page. --Swift (talk) 07:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
works as expected. Now we just have to find a way with the other versions. To incorporate a table in a table seems somewhat of a bad idea to me. Also, we need to make this usable for Korean as well, so we really have one unified template for all characters our project has! EDIT: I notice the category-code is a bit off. I selected kanji and nothing else, so it now thinks it's traditional and simplified chinese. This needs tweaking. I will add Korean later and fix this along with it! --Tauwasser (talk) 15:32, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think there is anything semantically wrong with nesting tables. MediaWiki, however, seems to disagree and wouldn't display it when I passed ... oh, now I remember: you can't pass pipes to arguments without escaping them with {{!}}. Anyway, I added links to the other variants just to see how that could go. Any particular reason why you don't like nesting?
Maybe we should add a whole bunch of variables, one for each style/variant combination (3x5=15 :-o). They could then be set to "this", "redirect" or "" (empty string). A bothersome kludge, but would probably work. --Swift (talk) 16:46, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I incorporated a somewhat better style into the template without having a nested table and without having non-existant links show up. It should not strain Commons too much to have 15 ifexist in there. If it does, we can always fall back to a version without ifexist. Also, I edited the categories to only show up when testtemplate is NOT set, because this page doesn't really need to be categorized for 学 or anything else. Same goes for any other testing. Hope this is works out. Now the only thing is to actually work on the license, that is, what is allowed and what is not? Maybe user selectable as a whole or maybe only certain kinds of licenses? --Tauwasser (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, "better style" is somewhat subjective. ;-)
I don't think the testtemplate variable is useful. We need to see how the categories work and the variable should be removed eventually, anyway. Setting up a test case without disrupting anything should be easy enough.
There is one other crucial thing to work on: How we indicate the relationship with redirects. I'll be looking into that. --Swift (talk) 04:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Well, right now this page is not categorized anymore just because I put the {{SOP license}} in here, so I see the usefulness of testtemplate. Afterall, this page has nothing to do with 学 in any way other than it is my test character ;) --Tauwasser (talk) 06:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
What some call a feature, others call a bug. --Swift (talk) 06:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
So how are you going to keep track of all the redirects? Have a bot go regularly through all the thousands of files and changing the template variables? Other than that, currently Korean and Traditional Chinese are broken, but maybe it was to show the effect beforehand? --Tauwasser (talk) 10:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Glad you asked! I'd figured the various discussions were clear enough for those currently involved. Before describing the new structure for new contributors, t I wanted to try a few ideas out. I'll put a section up on Commons:Stroke Order Project/Han characters and we can discuss it on the talk page. --Swift (talk) 14:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

License[edit]

Thought I'd start a new section for this. We shouldn't break backwards-compatibility with the old GFDL+CC-SA-3 combo, I but think we should allow for licenses that are more free as well (there have been some PD uploads). We can even, at some stage, contact those who've uploaded under {{SOlicense}} to ask for their opinions. --Swift (talk) 04:01, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The old license is somewhat unclear to me anyway. Is it GFDL with attribution, or as it states, either? As it is now, I'd say either, though those licenses have a whole different scope, so it's always easier for people to choose CC-SA-3 when they don't want to release their work under GFDL-compatible terms. However, in general I'm not very knowledgeable with licenses. PD sounds good, too, to me. However, I would always go at least with attribution, just because I think it's just the fair thing to do... But maybe we should give the user control over which, PD, CC-SA-3, GFDL and that's it. It should not be licensed so other people cannot use it freely, so we gotta have some control over it. --Tauwasser (talk) 06:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
"GFDL with attribution" would be redundant. The GFDL requires attribution (it's worth having a read through, it's not that long). The template currently makes the licensing very clear: "You may select the license of your choice." For more, you may wish to read up on w:dual-licensing. --Swift (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Anything else not covered yet??[edit]

So, do we have anything else that is not covered in this license yet?

  1. Redirected images
  2. What licenses to use
  3. Other images not yet checked for: I noticed there are SVG-versions of some images available, like File:中-red.svg. Maybe this would better altogether, instead of non-scalable bitplane images?

--Tauwasser (talk) 17:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Category names[edit]

So right now, this template would provide the following categories:

Always: [[:Category:{{{character}}}]]

Then it specifies for

Japanese kanji         - Category:Kanji stroke order images
Traditional Chinese    - Category:Traditional Chinese stroke order images
Simplified Chinese     - Category:Simplified Chinese stroke order images
Korean                 - Category:Korean stroke order images
Vietnamese             - Category:Vietnamese stroke order images

And the various types we currently have:

Black & White          - Category:Stroke order images in black and white
Gradations of Red      - Category:Stroke order images in grades of red
Ordered Gif Animations - Category:Stroke order animations

Radicals (up to three)

Radical                - [[:Category:{{{radical}}}]]

Those should be created and have Category:CJK stroke order or if this gets changed to Stroke Order project, then that one :D

Does this sound good? I would really like to see the old categories abandoned as they're not telling users who are not familiar with this very project anything meaningful. Right now they're "jred.png stroke order images", "order.gif stroke oder images"... I would go ahead and create the new categories (I did a test upload with Japanese) and then we could finally start using this license template?? --Tauwasser (talk) 20:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This sounds all very good. I'd similarly like to see the project use more descriptive names to aid users. I've been thinking about the categorisation and believe we need to go further to create navigable categories.
As large categories are of limited value, we should set up categories on the intersections of those above (and a few others). The variants we are currently looking at are:
  1. Kangxi radicals
  2. Traditional Chinese
  3. Simplified Chinese
  4. Japanese
  5. Korean
  6. Vietnamese
in three image types each. It would furthermore be useful to be able to look charactes up by:
  • The character itself. This would need a search field since a list of these is simply too big.
  • radical
  • stroke number
The last two should also be broken down into image type categories.
We are therefore looking at (brace yourselves) ... (6+2)×3=24 categories in addition to 6+2+3+1=11 hidden categories (the last hidden category would contain the character ones).
While it may look daunting, the task of browsing large categories is simply too much of a pain. These should allow users to more readily access what they're really interested in and generate better statistics on the status of the project.
Oh, and we're completely leaving the phonetic characters out. Since this template wasn't proposed as a simple licensing template, to replace {{SOlicense}}, we should (before starting to use it) rename it to better reflect its scope. --Swift (talk) 02:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, making some additional categories will work for sure, however, why don't you want to include the phonetic symbols in this template? I mean, it would be just one more thing to add, really. And then we'd finally have one license for all parts of this project! Other than that, I was under the impression the Vietnamese script is also "just" phonetics? --Tauwasser (talk) 13:02, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
I started this template to solve the issue of how to verify each character. The solution that I decided on after input from the village pump was to use redirects from variants with stroke order that's been verified to be the same. This template was intended to be a piece in that puzzle, aiding users to get an overview of the characters, including which are the redirects and which the original.
This will require some detailed parser functions and extra variables. It might not be worth while forcing this template to do too much. The guiding light should be in usefulness for the user and ease of use for the contributor — in that order.
Regarding Vietnamese: Modern Vietnamese uses accented latin characters. As with Korean, Chinese characters were used before moving to the phonetic script. I'm not sure to what extent they are still used. As it doesn't complicate things too much, we might as well provide a place for it. --Swift (talk) 01:32, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for not answering in such a long time :P Anyway, Korean can used mixed scripts, as seen here. Vietnamese is a bit more complicated and I don't actually know if it's worthwhile to actually include, as it's currently almost died out... See Vietnamese Nom Preservation Foundation. However, Vietnamese Chu Nom characters are being encoded Unicode CJKV Extension C. CJK Ext. A and Ext. B will also be known as CJKV in the future because of Han Unification. See Ext. C Vietnam Contribution. However, I don't know if they have another school for writing Chinese characters... However, they do incorporate characters not found in other Scripts - Vietnamese own creations, cf. Vietnamese Writing Styles: (ii) New characters were created. So at least these new Characters should be included once Ext. C is "ratified" -- which is sadly off by some years because of the sheer amount of glyphs and quarrels with all parties involved :(
Also, please see Fonts for further links to proposed CJKV Extension C. --Tauwasser (talk) 10:48, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

When to start using this template[edit]

I don't want to curb anyone's enthusiasm, but as much as I'd like to move the development forward, I don't see no reason to rush the adoption.

This template will be largely (if not completely) backwards compatible with the {{SOlicense}} and the replacement should be handled by a bot. Should anyone wish to upload characters right now, they should go ahead and do so under the current recommended template. Uploaders can, of course, upload under this experimental one as well.

Happy contributing. --Swift (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarifying the redirects[edit]

I've just replaced the "other versions" list with a slightly more nuanced version of what I had proposed earlier.

I removed the #ifexist:s, not because I don't like them, but because they complicate the code and aren't necessary right now.

The current version is not a proposal for a completed solution. This template is a work in progress and shouldn't be used anywhere apart from test cases. I still have things I want to try out.

For those interested: The current version checks {{PAGENAME}}</coade> to check which variant the page is part of:

{{#ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | {{{character}}}-t{{{style}}}.{{{suffix}}} | border: 2px solid red| <else...> }};

In the <else...> it checks whether the character is said to be a redirect:

{{#if:{{{tredirect|}}}|border:1px solid orange}}

These are repeated for different variants with "t" replaced with the other characters.

I mentioned elsewhere the idea of placing information on image description page sub-pages. I'm going to think about that some more. It would do away with those ?variant variables and could simplify maintenance. --Swift (talk) 06:56, 30 January 2009 (UTC)