User talk:とある白い猫/Archive/2012/12

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とある白い猫
A Certain White Cat
Bilinen Bir Beyaz Kedi

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Hello this is an Archive. Please do not edit. You are welcome to post comments regarding material here at my user talk page.

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Archive, December 2012

Template:Assessments issue[edit]

Hi, you may be the best person to address Template_talk:Assessments#Broken_for_set_nominations. At least, I can't see what the code is trying to do, so I don't know what's wrong with it... Rd232 (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Certainly but in order to do that the templates need to (at least briefly) have their protection reduced so I can edit. The templates are:
I should be able to quickly fix the issue after this. I'd rather not sandbox or {{editprotected}} it as a single missing } would break everything everywhere.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:29, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I think I spotted the problem in Template:FPC/. It automatically added File: or Image: at the start. I gave the other two documented functions. Now to purge all the necessary pages and see if it works. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:40, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes but that is part if the issue. :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:42, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
File:W.E.F._Britten_-_The_Early_Poems_of_Alfred,_Lord_Tennyson_-_The_Garden_at_Somersby_Rectory.jpg - Okay, one possibility IS working. Let me check what I did wrong on the other. Since those are actually methods that Template:Assessments/doc says should work, it's fine to include them. =) Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:44, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Please let me fix it for you :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:50, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but set nominations aren't as standardised as your fix presumes they are. If you want all sets to begin predictably, you'll actually need to get consensus on what the beginning should be first (and fix the documentation so it doesn't give false statements about possible formats) Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Nominations do not have to comply, however winners do. This used to work without problems before, I am just adding functionality. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
There is literally not even a template for Set nominations at FPC. They're done completely ad hoc. Now, if we add a template for sets, and, while doing so, standardise them to begin "Set: NOMINATION NAME" (with "Set:NOMINATION NAME" accepted to get around problems), that'd be a relatively simple fix. But there isn't even instructions on how to set up a set at COM:FPC at the moment. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Sure, one problem at a time :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 22:57, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Okay, the issue was fixed for the actual images. As you can see in the code all you need to do is link to the part after the first : after "Set". I have to ask one question though. Why do you want to tag the nomination page? It is customary to only tag the actual images I believe. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 23:06, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The bot cannot handle sets. The bot actually added the tag there, as it doesn't know how to find images in a set nomination. See below where I explain. Sorry! Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

xxx.wikipedia nominations[edit]

There's one other issue, though:

From Template:Assessments/doc: "For com and all XXwiki parameters there is an additional parameter com-nom or XXwiki-nom that can provide the nomination page (if it doesn't follow the standard scheme. For instance, enwiki-nom=Wikipedia:Feature picture candidates/Nomination name"

We cannot change that for other wikis without breaking EVERYTHING, but com-nom does not work the same way, the way you've set it up. That needs clearly mentioned.

I actually consider that the most important problem. If the software does not match the documentation, and requires things the user cannot find out without going into the code, or knowing it already, then the software is useless. So, either the Template has to match the documentation, or the documentation has to change.

However, I'm presuming the documentation is the consensus on the matter. Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty to break this into a separate section. Yes, this is an issue I am aware of and did not quite had the chance to tackle it yet. Ideally we want bots to handle all the tagging not people which is why I haven't spent too much time with it but feel free to improve the documentation. :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 23:06, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Well, Commons cannot affect any wiki other than itself. But, well, quite simply, that says that "com-nom=Commons:Featured picture candidates/Set nomination: NOMNAME" should work.
A situation where the instructions and only specific example given in the documentation does not actually work for the parameter named is something that should never, ever be allowed in coding. com-nom does not work that way - but if the documentation says it does, it should behave that way.
Otherwise, Commons becomes unusable. Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Commons featured pictures are on commons, other wikis are not concerned. Commons can affect other wikis through dialogue. As I said, that is a work in progress that I will work on once I have the time, there is no emergency to implement it right away. Documentation is provided for your convenience, it is not meant to be the basis of your talking point. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 14:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
You get me completely backwards: I'm not saying you can't change the documentation, but if you're not updating the documentation when you change basic functionality, then you're making broken code, because noone but you can use it now.
Basically, I'm arguing from usability. I don't really care how the code works, but we need to think through what the users of the code expect, and especially what they'd expect after reading the instructions we give them. If you want to ban a space after Set:, fine! But that causes usability problems, because, unless we recode the FPC interface, the way people start a new set nomination is by typing whatever they want after "Commons:Featured Picture candidates/Set:". Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:03, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Also, unlike proper code, Wikipedia has string manipulation functions turned off [1]. So I'm not quite sure how we can do anything useful with a set nomination page name. And if we can't do something useful, we shouldn't harm usability. Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:13, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Replied below. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 15:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Oh. Crap. I forgot to mention something important.[edit]

I'm really sorry about this. I forgot to mention something that explains why I'm being so pedantic on this issue, for which I apologise.

The bot cannot handle set nominations. Indeed, it messes up when it tries. http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3AFeatured_pictures%2C_list&diff=84012299&oldid=84012265 http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3AFeatured_pictures%2FNon-photographic_media&diff=84012302&oldid=83900403

and, apparently, when it can't find the image, it tags, of all things, the set nomination page:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3AFeatured_picture_candidates%2FSet%3AThe_Early_Poems_of_Alfred%2C_Lord_Tennyson&diff=84012306&oldid=83994239

I don't know why it does that. It seems to think the nomination page is the page it's supposed to promote. However, because it is completely broken for set nominations, everything has to be done by hand. That's why it's important to get this right, and fully documented. =) Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:17, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Again, I am so sorry, I didn't realise you didn't know the bot can't handle sets until half-way through this discussion. Adam Cuerden (talk) 23:22, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oh, it seems like User:FPCBot is having issues. We do not get that many set nominations to be honest. I'll leave a note to the bot operator.
The reason why we really want the nominations standardized is to allow various automatic checks to make sure everything works. Having no standards unnecessarily complicates code over very few cases that can be avoided with little effort.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 23:26, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh, completely agree. But with one part unstandardized, it get awkward. I'll see about that template. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I made a small tweak to Template:FPC/. Basically, since {{Assessments|com-nom=Name}} and {{Assessments|com-nom= Name}} are parsed the same, it's a good idea to code checking a space after Set: into the Assessments template.</no-wiki> Otherwise, the bot needs to be a LOT cleverer. We could add an ambiguity check as well, if you think it worth it? Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:26, 3 December 2012‎ (UTC)

I do not agree with this change, I'd suggest reverting. We want to avoid more template complexity whenever possible. Nomination names should not have a trailing space after the : as it looks weird for starters. Also with a space you make linking impossible. With a few tweaks to the code the set name could link to the relevant gallery sharing the same name. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 01:08, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, rules of English say it SHOULD have a space. Also, I'd be surprised if more than half of set noms had their own category. Anyway, have a look at COM:FPC - I've sorted out the templates, and they're ready to use. Adam Cuerden (talk) 01:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Actually, thinking about it: No, we can't link to the category from the Set nomination page. {{PAGENAME}} only removes namespaces, and Set: isn't actually a namespace, it just has a colon. Media wiki does have some text to abridge strings, but I'm pretty sure they aren't installed, and if they are, since leading spaces are removed from parameters, it shouldn't matter. Just pass it on.
I'll have a look and see whether the string manipulation tools are installed, anyway.
If you want to link the category on the Assessments template, that's doable, but whether we allow "Set: Nomname" as well as "Set:Nomname" won't matter. The whole reason for the extra code allowing both options is that the space after Set: won't be sent to the Assessments template anyway.
Now, this wouldn't matter if we could easily keep spaces out of nominations, but this is the format we're looking at: Commons:Featured_picture_candidates#Adding_a_new_nomination
For people who may not speak English well, or at all. We cannot enforce much besides it starting Set:
And if we don't allow a space after Set:, well, we're not going to be here forever. Having code that behaves to expectations is more important than any theory we can come up with, because most people cannot read code. Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
This isn't English Wikipedia. It is difficult enough to enforce the most basic of all rules please do not add to the complication. I do not see the benefit of complicating the template code for an extra space after the colon.
Galleries for sets would need to follow a naming scheme somehow and I want to keep the name void of trailing spaces. For instance if the gallery page has a name such as Set/nomname/Set/ nomname it would not properly link. Furthermore, category sorting would not work well.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 14:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Again, we can't do anything about that, because Set: is not a namespace. Given only that the code is running in a page entitled Commons:Featured picture candidates/Set:Nomname how would you extract Nomname from that? If you can answer that, I'll concede the point. Adam Cuerden (talk) 14:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough, I just do not want to hit the parser limits that cause templates to stop working if over-complicated not to mention the other problems I have mentioned. Could you point me to the exact page on FPC documentation that creates this problem? I can try to correct it there. I was hoping you would do that to be honest. :)
Yeah, it is quite a challenge to get anything working without string functions. Mediawiki string functions themselves are very inefficient anyways so a lack of them isn't exactly a loss per above reason. Hopefully this will be fixed whenever Lua is implemented.
The parameter does not extract the "Nomname" part. It links to "Commons:Featured picture candidates/Set:Nomname" but also uses Nomname in other means for example such as category sorting. Trailing space would put all sets before all other content as space comes before all else. The same value is also used for different purposes such as POTY category sorting I believe.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 15:31, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Let's see. Honestly, it's not so much a page of FPC documentation, it's the nature of the edit box itself. It just lets people type in whatever, so we can't really monitor content that well. And we don't want to have too distracting of warnings, or we end up with people's eyes being drawn to the Set nomination option for single image nominations.
Yeah, my philosophy of making interfaces is that I presume people are dumb. It usually pays off. =)
Hmm. There's an idea, though. what if the edit box looked something like:
Commons:Featured picture candidates/Set: [Space to type in your nomination name]
It'd depend on how hard-coded the edit box was, but it's doable, and, best of all, since parameters drop leading and trailing spaces, it automatically formats them in our preferred way.
There is a second possibility, of course. Have the input be "com-nom=Set:Nomname". Downsides are obvious of course: "Com-nom=Picture of a cat" linking to "Commons:Featured picture candidates/Picture of a cat" would then be a possibility. But that's less likely, and it'd help cover for any unusual situations, like if en-wiki's "delist and replace" nominations migrated to our delisting pages. ("com-nom=delist/File:foo.jpg") although, again, not pretty.
A third possibility is just to have set nominations be handled by a slightly different bit of code in assessments. the other forms of #if are much less server-heavy than #ifexist, so it'd be easy enough to just give Template:Assessments a flag that you can raise to note a set nomination. As long as it's documented, it's not much of a problem.
As for the other issue, FPC/ adding the space doesn't cause the parameter to behave any differently anywhere else, which is why I prefer handling the possibility of it having a space as an option in Template:FPC/. Otherwise someone's going to hit on com-nom=_Nomname, which breaks everything else. Adam Cuerden (talk) 16:58, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
Oh I absolutely agree. As a programmer (outside of templates that is) I always assume the user will find new ways to input information so I code in line after line to properly parse it. However I had to abandon this with templates due to the reasons I mentioned above. So unfortunately it can't be done. I would more than support the change in nomination code. Bear in mind if someone posts the page with _ the template would flag it as it would not be able to find the nomination page and we can manually correct it.
I wanted to use assessments template to merge various types of assessments into one template, as image description pages were getting stuffed with templates making them difficult to follow on some cases. It is a delicate and slow process though which is why I want to do things slowly.
What I would like to really do is convert uses of "Image:" to "File:" reducing the template complexity but I am guessing people may not see it as something necessary.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 18:39, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
  • cough* Actually, I know that I myself have, in at least one case, nominated something as File:Filename.jpg, then successfully nominated it as Image:Filename.jpg, as there's no actual guidelines on how to renominate. That caused the obvious problems later.
Also, com-nom= _Nomname would actually work for "Commons:Featured picture candidates/Set: Nommane": Wikipedia (and #ifexist) treat _ and space as exact equivalents.
Honestly, I think the best option might be to just go with having a "com-fp-set" parameter for the assessments template, which, when set, allowed other uses of com-nom. It'd at least flag sets up for special handling at POTY and the like.

Solution?

Hmm. Actually, we're not really looking at every option here. What if, instead of Set:, we used Set/ ? that makes {{SUBPAGENAME}} work again, and it's much less likely anyone would add a space after it. I think that'd solve both our issues. Adam Cuerden (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
The problem as I stated before, even the slightest new complication creates all sorts of problems which are entirely avoidable. Thius is why I want to avid additional parameters as much as possible. The idea is to make the set name match the nomination name so that two values aren't floating about which would make things REALLY confusing.
It is possible to use Set/ in place of Set: where the com-nom value is the text after the / or :. It makes no difference in terms of code. However / is a sub page so you'd be having a "Set" subspace which may not be a bad idea but needs further consensus. Indeed it would eliminate all the problems so far discussed and I think it would further distinguish Set nominations from other nominations in a more clear manner.
-- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 19:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
True. Let's skip the parameter, and just get consensus for Set/ - what do you think, Commons_talk/Featured picture candidates on a one week discussion?
On a different note, one of the reasons I'm interested in using Set/ is that we could then check for things like Set/Category:Blah in the templates I made, which would, if used, be something useful to link the header of the nom to. Adam Cuerden (talk) 00:13, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
I am not disagreeing with you with this, its just that I am quite busy with other matters. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 00:58, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Categories[edit]

You have uploaded a whole set of identified birds, but dumped them all in Category:Unidentified birds, and left it to others to sort out the mess. Why? They are all clearly identified by their filenames (e.g. File:Y ND Brahminy kite swooping.jpg - Flickr - Lip Kee.jpg is, as stated, a Brahminy Kite), it is easy to look up the scientific name and use that as the category. Please do so! Thanks - MPF (talk) 12:28, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

MPF, White Chat has uploaded the Lip Kee stream at my request, and I am taking responsibility for it. The unidentified birds category has been automatically added by flickrripper.py by way of looking at image tags. Having said that, I am responsible for the cleaning up of these files. If you refer to Category:Photos by Lip Kee, all uploads have been placed into that category. Once I have cleaned up files (including categories), they are being moved to Category:Photos by Lip Kee (checked). At the end of the day there are still going to be birds that are not able to be identified, and they will go into that category, but if the file has Category:Photos by Lip Kee as part of its categorisation, it hasn't been checked/cleaned up. Please direct any further questions on these uploads to me. russavia (talk) 15:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Bot upload request[edit]

Can you please upload this. Place them in Category:Photos of Turkmenistan by Kerri-Jo. Cheers, russavia (talk) 04:14, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

✓ Done as of yesterday. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 02:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, the next set we can do is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lipkee -- there are already approx 450 images from this set on Commons. Perhaps categorise these photos into Category:Photos by Lip Kee, and if you are able to, add the category to those which already exist. Cheers, russavia (talk) 17:50, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
Working on it now, sorry I must have misread your remark. :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 12:09, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
✓ Done as of 28 December as I told you on IRC back then. :) -- とある白い猫 ちぃ? 14:44, 31 December 2012 (UTC)