User talk:Herbythyme/Arc12

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Userpage deletions[edit]

Hello Herby, why did you delete User:Nina Paley as being 'out of scope'? Some advice for a new user about how to set up and organize a userpage would have been nicer, and more likely to welcome someone to the commons community... +sj + 12:29, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is a pretty promotional page with links on & equally appear to promote someone's commercial work. I guess I could have deleted at as "promotional" but whatever else it was "out of scope". They do get a template about "scope" & always get a welcome. The sheer number there are means I have no time for actual personal messages. As with Wikipedia there are plenty of people who try to promote something via their use page.
Thanks for the explanation. But why delete the page, rather than leave a comment and ask for it to be changed? Deletion (and the snarky tone of most warning templates :) leaves people with a very sour taste that a welcome message may not remove. This is a big problem on WP as well.
Paley has been very open about the fact that she is releasing her published work into the public commons under CC-SA, but I don't think she knows much about this Commons. There have been requests (at the recent open video conference) for her to post some of her work to Wikisource -- so her request for help in uploading on her userpage seems to me like a good faith attempt to join the community. Mind if I try a revision of the userpage that feels less promotional? +sj + 13:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Hum .... well our views on promotional user pages is definitely different. However I am just a Commons admin while you wish to become a director - maybe that is the difference..... --Herby talk thyme 17:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Maybe a good answer would be to edit the welcome template? Comments welcome, cheers --Herby talk thyme 12:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
I think the welcome template is fine -- I don't see a welcome page that introduces authors*, photographers, and artists to the right way to share their own work. (* authors -- in cases where they don't know how to OCR a published book predating digitization, but have a good scan of it and want to share the pdf or individual page images) Is there such a thing? Where should I look? +sj +
Plus - I think some of the uploads should have OTRS confirmation I would have thought (it is for the protection of the copyright holder). --Herby talk thyme 13:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
That's a fair point. But Paley has been quite public about the fact that her full back-catalog (which, aside from 'accepted donations' for the recent feature film, is not available commercially anywhere) is now CC-SA, and she is looking for help in getting it digitized. This is on her website, the new film website, questioncopyright, &c. So I don't know that OTRS confirmation is needed. +sj + 13:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I guess my answer will be a bit of a ramble.

Yes I dislike templates but over time I've come to the conclusion that they are better than nothing.

Commons have many admins - rather a lot of them do nothing so those that do have to just get on with the work.

Promotional user pages are a bane of any wiki (& my life - I do have quite strong views about those who seek to use freely given space to promote themselves/products/sites etc. All too often they have no interest in actually contributing to this rather worthwhile project :) (my talk page archive here, en wp, meta etc are littered with examples I'm afraid).

I do dislike treating newbies badly (I was one once) but it is hard to strike a balance of time/effort etc as a volunteer.

I know what you mean.

Tech stuff/digitising - sorry not my area of experise, Commons helpdesk might be a good place to ask?

Copyright ownership[edit]

As to OTRS the more time I spend here the more it amazes me how lax the Foundation is over licensing. Many other sites insist on quite elaborate procedures with regard to licensing before you can do anything. The legal implications of this could be quite a nuisance & most copyright holders just take the view that as it is their's they do not need to explicitly license it. If the website is explicit - fine, however it still does not mean the user who uploaded the material is the legal owner actually....

That's quite true. I met someone who works at Britannica the other day -- I mentioned that they had started to use Commons images. He said yes, but it took them a lot of time to clear licenses on the Commons images anyway, because of the lack of standards for verification here. +sj +
At any rate, Paley and Karl Fogel @ Question Copyright are rather meticulous. You will appreciate their "full compliance do it yourself copyright micropayments" page. +sj + 18:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about the ramble but I'm not the only one who watches this page :). Regards --Herby talk thyme 14:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

illustrator page[edit]

Revised at your suggestion : Nina Paley

Misunderstanding[edit]

Hey, I am the owner of Trustler.com, so why are you hampering me to post the logo of my own website on Wikipedia? Please be polite... Cheers!

"(none) to confirmed"[edit]

I was waiting to start seeing that appear in the logs. :) I noticed that new user group awhile ago[1], but haven't see anyone use it until now. I assume you're doing it so they can patrol pages, right? Do their edits get autopatrolled? It would make sense, but Special:ListGroupRights doesn't list them as having 'autopatrol'. BTW, do you know what 'collectionsaveascommunitypage' and 'collectionsaveasuserpage' mean? Rocket000 (talk) 20:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed users could patrol before [2], but suddenly it got removed (so it seems). I'm not sure why. Kanonkas // talk // CCD // 20:26, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
And I went to bed expected a message this am :)
Overnight I also realised that it should have said "autopatrolled" for what I thought I was doing.....
So - what the hell is "confirmed"? And why the hell can't we get it - patrolling has gone close to zero now & my time is way more intermittent.
As to the other queries, I'll dig around later. Good to "see" you both, regards --Herby talk thyme 08:24, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Confirmed is a generic user group present on all wikis now. It's intended to be used for seminars, Wikipedia Academy, etc so when you're sitting there with someone you don't have to twiddle your thumbs for four days until they can upload. Same for editing semiprotected pages, moving pages, and saving collections. I doubt this will be very useful for Commons, but it does have it's purpose elsewhere.  — Mike.lifeguard 11:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Well it's not sounding very useful. :) I don't even know what a 'collection' is. Do you think we can change this right for Commons like the autoconfirm status is different on Commons? For many projects autoconfirm means they can patrol pages and upload. On Commons, you can upload by just being a user but not patrol in either case. But to me, what would really be useful is the ability to assign 'autopatrol' to trusted users. Rocket000 (talk) 14:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Autopatrolled would be very good. --Herby talk thyme 14:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with that. I think we should have a patroller group (autopatrol + patrol). Kanonkas // talk // CCD // 14:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Block log[edit]

Cheers for the notification. I don't know who those accounts belong to. Possibly Grawp accounts or sleeper accounts. I don't know for sure as I can't see any contributions (not sure whether they were deleted or not anyway). Jolly Janner (talk) 15:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Userpage content enquiry[edit]

What can I put on my user page? What information is allowed?

Replied on user talk page. --Herby talk thyme 16:33, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Untolerable[edit]

Your actions towards me and my page are untolerable RESTORE MY PAGE NOW!!!!!!!!! When a person (a real person) not a coward....like you.... acts like you ....they are considered part of the problem instead of part of the solution. You think when you do this that you are part of the solution????....you are a very feeble minded and weak individual!!!! How dare you!!!! How dare you!!!! You of all people on this site should be gracious and considerate ...instead you must be riddled with insecurity and insignificance. How does it feel to be so destitute of intelligence and generosity??????? You are a poor soul and I have seen this type of behaviour many times before and it's centered around that persons ineptness in life ....poor thing ...why don't you do everyone a favor including yourself and jump off the tallest building you can find!!!! If you don't have the time or intelligence to "school" new people to Wiki about what is proper for a page and what is not proper for a page instead of just deleting ......then maybe your little brain shouldn't be in charge of anything.....

Thanks to those who dealt with my new friend. --Herby talk thyme 19:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks[edit]

For the tip. Good idea. --Captain-tucker (talk) 17:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Blocked user?[edit]

Hi Herby,

I'm not up to speed on whether or not blocked users are allowed to come back again under a different name, but I suspect that the blocked User:Yorkshirian is editing under User:Thomas Gun. Yorkshirian's user page on Wikipedia is very similar in style to Thomas Gun's user page here, and the kind of things they edit is also very similar. He is also vandalising iamges, here's [3] an example of him wrongly recategorising an image just because he doesn't like it. I don't know if anything can (or should) be done, but at the very least I wanted to make sure someone was aware of it, if you weren't already. Regards, --Joowwww (talk) 12:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks (I think). Given that the contribs look rather more positive than negative (& that Commons does tend to operate differently to en wp) I think I'd go for watching for now. Others do appear to watch this page (:)) so I'm sure they will say if they disagree.
May well be worth a note if they do any further daft category changes though. Thanks for the info - appreciated. Regards --Herby talk thyme 13:44, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

User page article query[edit]

Hey, I am trying to set up a page for an artist, Danny Chaimson, and you deleted it. Can you help me understand why and what I can do to get this page up!?

Replied on user talk. --Herby talk thyme 08:07, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Hello Herbythyme, I started working on the backlogs this week and I've found this one for example. The question is that it should be noted that I'm not nominating the file myself, rather than correcting a mistake from the person that wanted to start this discussion; so I decided to add a little notice below the DR's rationale as I did here for example. Is that OK or should I do something more? and, shall I put the deletion request on the today's log or in the opening day log?. Thank you in advance and best regards. df|  08:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Your approach looks fine to me - I think I would put in today's log personally - it is a fresh listing in some sense. Of course the best answer would be for you to be an admin here....:) Thanks --Herby talk thyme 11:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you & yes, I do not expect somebody reviewing today January logs for deletion requests :). I'll list them on the today's log so that folks will see them. Again, thank you. I'm going to do help on the SWMT a bit right now, seems that some vandals came around today. Regards, df|  14:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Dartmoor[edit]

Finalised first pass of User:Nilfanion/Dartmoor/Tors. Now get out there and snap away! (I will too) :)--Nilfanion (talk) 11:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh and the longer term project is User:Nilfanion/Dartmoor. Given the sheer scale of it I don't want to overwhelm myself with just making lists, I want to get some productive stuff done too! If we get reasonable interest I'll move the whole over to Commons-namespace. I'm tempted to publicise on en.wp (at the Devon wikiproject too, but want the basic framework established first.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to let you know I've tried out what I think is a workable format on the Rivers list: Using the tributary structure for the headings and having individual tables for each river. That way each significant feature along the rivers gets a own row in the table, so we can request ones of specific sites (I used the Dart to demonstrate that) as well as list what we have photos of already.

Of course, I've only sketched out the layout, if you think its good feel free to add in the details - if you feel there's a major flaw still, further discussion will be needed I suppose. I've also added a bit of detail to a couple of the other lists. I'll see you after the bank hol :)--Nilfanion (talk) 12:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

pt user page deletion[edit]

Hello Herby, who are you, and what do you know of Portugal and of the Portuguese reality to delete a page concerning end very important to the Portuguese people!????

Please note that Commons is a repository for freely licensed media for use elsewhere. It is not a Wikipedia for text articles. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 10:07, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Historian19[edit]

Friesland NL (talk · contribs) is him I think? O Fenian (talk) 16:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - yes & done plus one other I found. Posted info to list, cheers --Herby talk thyme 16:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Calypso Hellas (talk · contribs) seems like him? O Fenian (talk) 15:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Blocked, deleted, posted to list :) Thanks --Herby talk thyme 15:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
Yet to upload anything, but based on edits on en St. Petersburgh (talk · contribs) seems obvious? O Fenian (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Dropped all rights a while back - will point out to a current CU. --Herby talk thyme 10:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
No bother, sorry to have troubled you. O Fenian (talk) 20:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Jual377[edit]

Hello Herby, all the images of this user are copyvios from skyscrapercity. I've been tagging most of them this days but I do not know if you can nuke'em all (I can't :P); that's clear that all his images are not own work, see deleted contributions. Thank you, df|  21:09, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

✓ Done thanks --Herby talk thyme 06:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
Gracias :) df|  11:32, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
De nada :) --Herby talk thyme 11:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

View shots[edit]

Yeah, I'm not sure where panoramic/wide view shots properly belong. Thing is they are definitely desirable to have, but can't really list ones that are desirable in advance: Can't say "we need a picture of this set of tors from this spot". I mean, "Dartmoor from Bodmin Moor" is that a worthwhile shot? How about from Dunkery Beacon.. etc

Some representative shots of the landscape as opposed to individual features are needed: "North Dartmoor", "South Dartmoor" and "East Dartmoor" are all large SSSIs, there's the 3 military ranges, the river valleys... We should encourage that type, perhaps have a list of "views of landscape"? They are certainly more useful than this image.--Nilfanion (talk) 11:39, 19 August 2009 (UTC) Copied this to User talk:Nilfanion/Dartmoor.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Holliday[edit]

Hi Herby,

I will be out the country for a couple of weeks maybe 1 maybe 5 we don't really know a end date..

I have posted a note on my user page telling people to go to you or two other administrators when the need help and I am not there, I hope you enjoy may fan club that post topics daily :)

I will speak to you soon again :) Huib talk 18:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Enjoy the holiday - you are watchlisted anyway :) Have fun --Herby talk thyme 19:21, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

OK who did I forget?  :)[edit]

grin ... Yann stepped down recently, see m:Stewards#Chart and the rights log. Guess I better fix the table at Commons:List of checkusers ++Lar: t/c 21:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I had no idea that was the case - apologies (& thanks for updating the page). --Herby talk thyme 08:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

ello[edit]

Thank you very much for returning my chittychat page to how I left it and the courtesy of an apology was very much appreciated. You are to be commended for your work on Commons. On another matter, I am progressing a project on Wikiversity, learning Tibetan to be exact. Is there a protocol and modality for interwiki networking to your knowledge? Would you be happy if I adopted you as my Commons' mentor?
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk) 11:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Strange comment...[edit]

I'm gonna kick your butt! [bullies Herby to death] --Barta bus (talk) 18:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

2 DR's[edit]

I'm sorry to disturb you but shouldn't these 2 DR and DR requests be closed as delete since they are more than 1 week old, never passed flickr review and no one objects to deleting them? What do you think? Thank You, --Leoboudv (talk) 02:10, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You are correct in a sense but these old Flickr ones are very difficult. The trouble is the difficulty of proving what the licensing was when it was originally uploaded. If it was valid then the image is ok. You are right to raise it but I think posting on an admin board will get you better opinions. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 08:25, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

CheckUser[edit]

I would like to draw your attention to this. Thank you, Tiptoety talk 04:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Gee thanks :). Actually genuinely thanks. Short on time today & Lar is always telling me to leave things for others so maybe I will. In practice they may well be out of time CU wise anyway. Cheers --Herby talk thyme 08:26, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Question[edit]

I notice that flickr review has been behaving erratically--it marks only a few images and then it stops. As a result, the backlog of images needing review exceeds 100 today. I have trusted user status and have marked many but I've been busy off late. Is there a page where I could notify other (hopefully less busy) Admins or trusted users of this situation so that someone could tackle the pile? I am concerned that Admins and trusted users only mark images requiring human review and ignore the rising backlog.

As an aside, I am contacting you since Abigor recommends you. I marked several images and dragged the number down to below 90. Hopefully, the bot will not mark a few and then stop...again. Oh wow, I was wrong! Look at this Maybe Bryan or another technician can fix the bot. Regards from BC, Canada. --Leoboudv (talk) 00:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

As to where to post Commons:Administrators' noticeboard would seem a good start. Sorry I was away yesterday & will be going offline again shortly. I'll look some more when I am back. Thanks & regards --Herby talk thyme 08:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your kind reply. Regards, --Leoboudv (talk) 19:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

RfA?[edit]

Hi, I read your comment in the noticeboard. Can you help me what RfA means? And if you restored the pictures I would suggenst to restore the talk pages as well. File talk:MiamiSouthBeachPanorama.jpg File talk:MSMajestyOfTheSeas.JPG --Schlurcher (talk) 09:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks - I intended to restore them too but missed it - it was early!
RfA = Request for Adminship status. The one I was referring to is here. Do ask if you have other queries. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 10:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

File:Admirals de Hampton Roads.gif[edit]

Hello, you recently delete File:Admirals de Hampton Roads.gif cause it's a logo but i think this logo can be considered in this case : de Hampton Roads.gifikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality Threshold_of_originality and is free. What do you thibnk about it ? (However, I probably forgot the trademark licence... my fault). --Supertoff (talk) 18:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Tagged as copyvio & not PD. To me (& looking again) I think it is a copyvio given the style of text & layout of that text personally. --Herby talk thyme 07:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way - I will undelete it if you like but I think it should then go to DR or someone else will come along & tag it in a month or so and we will be going around in circles. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 13:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion log review[edit]

Hi, regarding your offer to help :-); can you review this deletion log [4], I am a bit suspicious of a log comment of "Duplicated of or superseded by" considering the latest deletion of File:Entrance to Wellington Park, Somerset.jpg despite the DR as keep.

Agreed - however that is more than a 5 min job so it will be later. Obviously an issue we need to look at quite carefully. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 07:39, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Text page deletion[edit]

Hey!! Why did you delete my article on je stivque yesterday!!

I assume you are Jtouzios and I have answered you on your talk page. Thanks --Herby talk thyme 09:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Userpage Jackie Ohlsen[edit]

Hi Herby, would you object restoring User:Jackie ohlsen? After some email conversation with her, initiated by my request for permissions, I'm quite convinced she is the artist herself. You may also take a look here, which I started before knowing of her userpage problem. --Túrelio (talk) 13:47, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

As you see fit. --Herby talk thyme 14:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I restored it and told to make it not too promotional. --Túrelio (talk) 14:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of account "yellowcab643"[edit]

My userpage, images and contributions have been removed. My understanding was that anybody was welcome to edit Wikipedia. I don't recall violating any of your rules and don't want to waste time or energy. My contributions have been an effort to correct information or at least to provide a possibly different opinion. But, how is it (for instance) that my picture of myself michaelwilliamandersen.jpg is "out of project scope?".--Michael William Andersen 22:26, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

:-)[edit]

Hi Herby,

did my email arrive this morning? It was the first email sent with my new pda so I don't know if it went okay. Huib talk 12:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Nope - last one was 31/08 (or 08/31 if you want it that way :)) --Herby talk thyme 12:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

it should be send again now :) Now I need to find why my pda doesn't send emails.. Huib talk 13:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Deleting Plumbing Manufacturers Institute Page[edit]

Hello Herby,

I am very new to Wikipedia and I appreciate some insight as to why the Plumbing Manufacturers Institute page was deleted. Any information you can provide would be most helpful.

Thank you.

Quality Image Promotion[edit]

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Re: Hum[edit]

(Too tempting to use a stupid heading here...) Care to guess the route yesterday? :)

A couple there need discussion I think: Is Headless Cross, a cross? Is that rock outcrop in Tottiford a tor? IMO from the technical viewpoint, the cross isn't a cross whilst the rock is a tor. However, the cross is called a cross and the rock isn't called a tor. Its possible that the rock has a name (pre-reservoir maps maybe?).

My concern about this is I'd love to get VI sets for both tors and crosses when we are "done". However to be done, we need to have everything in that class, and to do that we need to have a decent criteria as to what the class is. I don't agree with the inclusion criteria used by Dartmoor Crosses, for example I wouldn't call [5] or [6] crosses. There are hundreds of graves in the various churchyard that are more of a cross than those! (And I definitely don't want to class graves as "Dartmoor Crosses".) What do you think?--Nilfanion (talk) 13:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Think I agree about QI and FP - the more the merrier, I'll probably try a couple just to get a feel for QI. Agree about the trip yesterday as conditions weren't the best after all (I planned to clime Easdon Tor and/or Meldon Hill)... BTW, there's a couple panos I have got to sort out to upload.
As for VI, I was musing about sets as opposed to individual images. For that purpose, perhaps we can break them down by subtype. For instance: "Crosses on Abbott's Way", "...Mariner's Way", "Waymarker crosses" "Village crosses" and so on. The additional constraint means we don't have to worry about the broader problem as the narrow scope is easy to define. Picking out individual images for individual VI status is likely to be hard.
As for File:Headless Cross.jpg, Pastscape is interesting - the inference is that the stone I took a picture of is modern. The tor issue, I agree with you (unless it was a named tor historically).--Nilfanion (talk) 17:42, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I've uploaded one now too: File:Brentor panoramic.jpg. Unfortunately hazy day (as well as the wrong time) so less detail visible of the important stuff. It could benefit from a tighter crop (does the leftmost quarter show anything of interest?) so I'll probably not start on the nasty nasty job of image notes just yet. I can identify a number from Sourton at one end to Sharpitor at the other...--Nilfanion (talk) 22:07, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, might as well keep it like that - not worth the hassle (Though I could go *wider* so that a gravestone or two gets included on the left). Incidentally with image notes, might be an idea to fiddle with your preferences to tweak the image size on description pages there's no way you'd be able to tag any of the tors on my pano at the 800x600 default.
As for categories... um... be bold? I wouldn't object to any sub-categories being created for any sensible subdivision. I'd split Category:Dartmoor tors if I could Actually, Category:Haytor is viable. If you think a new cat is beneficial its nigh on certain that I'll agree :)--Nilfanion (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the menhir I just reacted to yours being badly wrong. I know we didn't turn SW after leaving the drift! (did you misidentify the path when you uploaded?) I think the new one looks about right, I just grabbed the GR from Pastscape, I think conversion of coordinates between OSGB 36 and WGS 84 accounts for the error. As for moving it, where do you want the file to go to File:Harbourne Head menhir.jpg :) Incidentally, the "com" in your recent uploads seems kind of pointless to me...

On the categories, I do think Archaeology of Dartmoor is getting bloated and needs breakdown: Mining (and other industry), cairns, crosses, menhirs/standing stones, stone rows/circles would be sensible subcats. For that matter, the subheadings I've used in the Dartmoor pages are probably about right. If I object to something I'm sure to let you know (I prefer to follow the "edit, discuss" model not "edit, revert, discuss"), so if you don't hear anything from me I approve of it.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

One pass done: to be honest I'm more concerned about the semantics of the names than creating the cats (due to the hassle in renaming).--Nilfanion (talk) 10:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

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Image questions[edit]

Just been going over wikipedia to both get an additional list to check against and ensure we have everything. Two issues came up that need you assist on:

  1. File:Dart at Salmon leap 2.JPG: not sure where that is, geotag and add to Dartmoor Rivers (if in the NP) please.
  2. GFDL issues. Could you go over your uploads (under previous account) to en and get rid of the disclaimers? :)

I'm also going through Category:Devon, dumping a load into Category:Dartmoor, which isn't going to be clean and tidy when I'm done...--Nilfanion (talk) 23:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)