User talk:Lar/Archive 6

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I recognize that this user page belongs to this Wikimedia project and not to me personally. As such, I recognize that I am expected to respectfully abide by community standards as to the presentation and content of this page, and that if I do not like these guidelines, I am welcome either to engage in reasonable discussion about it, to publish my material elsewhere, or to leave the project.

This is an archive of threads started in User talk:Lar from about 1 September 2008 through about 1 Novembe 2008. Please do not comment here, use my current talk page for that, thanks. It is part of a series of archives, see the box at left for the list and to navigate to others.
My archived talk        [+/−]
Archive 1 — start through about 1 Nov 2006
Archive 2 — about 1 Nov 2006 through about 1 Mar 2007
Archive 3 — about 1 Mar 2007 through about 1 Aug 2007
Archive 4 — about 1 Aug 2007 through about 1 Jan 2008
Archive 5 — about 1 Jan 2008 through about 1 Sep 2008
Archive 6 — about 1 Sep 2008 through about 1 Nov 2008
Archive 7 — about 1 Nov 2008 through about 1 Jan 2009
Archive 8 — about 1 Jan 2009 through about 1 Mar 2009
Archive 9 — about 1 Mar 2009 through about 1 Jun 2009
Archive 10 — about 1 Jun 2009 through about 1 Sep 2009
Archive 11 — about 1 Sep 2009 through about 1 Jan 2010
Archive 12 — about 1 Jan 2010 through about 1 May 2010
Archive 13 — about 1 May 2010 through about 1 September 2010

Question concerning lawsuit[edit]

For reverting changes like this and later substing the template so that he can't do licence changes that easy anymore, the user Steschke today has asked me to give him my address for a lawsuit he wants to start against me. Any idea how I should react except staying mellow? -- Cecil (talk) 12:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[1] -- Cecil (talk) 12:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Many WMF projects have a "no legal threats" policy. I'm not sure that's explicit here but if it isn't, it should be. (under such a policy anyone making threats of lawsuits is blocked, and encouraged to either take the threat back, or pursue non wiki means of communication) I am not a lawyer and you should not rely on me for legal advice but in my view it is not your responsibility to provide addresses. Can you show me where Steschke made this request? (I was not sure what that diff in your second post was pointing to as my German isn't quite up to deciphering that box) Have you brought this to anyone else's attention? I think it merits mentioning on the admin noticeboard at the very least. ++Lar: t/c 12:45, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
On that box: There's another user also using that box: [2], [3] (same person). Both Ralf and Steschke declare not to agree to GFDL 1.2 "or any later version" and insist on GFDL 1.2 only, and (since the community has decided that that wasn't ok, IIRC) embellish that with some references to German civil law. If I understand them correctly, they even claim that their images were GFDL 1.2 only even if tagged {{GFDL}} (which says "or any later version"), and even if uploaded before they put up these notices. Might be time that a professional thinks about this. If their approach worked, it'd effectively mean that no content here was safe: anyone could retract any license anytime (well, according to German civil law, within ten years), just by claiming "I had misunderstood the license terms". Lupo 13:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
The legal threat is here: Steschke demands Cecil's true address in order to be able to have a summoning served to him. ("ladungsfähig" means just that: a valid real address to which legal documents can be served.) Lupo 13:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to Lupo. I was still searching for a translation of 'ladungsfähig'. Ralf by the way has a date with a German judge on 22nd September to get a opinion of her. -- Cecil (talk) 13:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Something else in German: [4] (this is the discussion that lead to everything). Maybe someone with better english law vocabulary can translate or recapitulate it. -- Cecil (talk) 13:10, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
(EC) Is there any progress on de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Rechtsgutachten_2008? (Apparently the German WP-Verein wants to get a professional opinion on a number of questions about the GFDL, including (last point) the question under which circumstances, if at all, the GFDL might be revoked.) Lupo 13:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's take further discussion to Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard#Possible_.22no_legal_threats.22_issue.3F where this will get wider attention. In fact it may make sense to copy this stuff over there so the rest of the folk have this valuable context. I will if you guys don't beat me to it... thanks. ++Lar: t/c 14:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sure, just move it. I'll let you do it, it's your talk page, after all... Lupo 15:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


Please see here. Lupo 20:17, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Upload script[edit]

Hi Lar, remember I mentioned that I was working on a script to mass upload files? Well, it is ready and available here for testing: User:Nichalp/Upload script. I've tested it for almost two weeks now, and have ironed out most issues. I'm not going public with it till I finish with some related modifications. Do have a look at it. Nichalp (talk) 14:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Cool... are there dependencies on which Perl version is used? I have ActiveState 5.8, (windows XP sp2) as well as the one that comes with the MKS toolkit (which some software I support depends on but which I don't think is as good)... I have a series of pics I could upload that would be a good test. One idea for an enhancement: integrate in with Google Maps to capture the geoloc coordinates for an image (pop the map up at the last one shown and let the user nave ot the next...) I use imagemagick to get image info out (for use with generating ebay listings)... if that's integrated into a Perl Package I can simplify some of my own code. ++Lar: t/c 17:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
I still mean to give this a whirl. Just one thing and another. ++Lar: t/c 20:03, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


Hi, I have replied to you on my talkpage. Thanks Harris578 (talk) 07:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Commons:2008 Election suffrage poll[edit]

(You are receiving this message because the poll requested it to be closed and tallied by bureaucrats)

You are kindly asked to express your opinion on the results of Commons:2008 Election suffrage poll at Commons talk:2008 Election suffrage poll#Poll results. Thank you, Patrícia msg 12:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I have done so. ++Lar: t/c 14:19, 13 September 2008 (UTC)


Per request. Videmus Omnia (talk) 14:22, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

You missed one page ...[edit]

... this one :P. Best regardsabf /talk to me/ 19:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Got called away in the middle, I have a scheme which I am going to apply here... ++Lar: t/c 20:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I think it's sorted now, see what you think. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 25 September 2008 (UTC)


Please check your inbox, kind of urgent. Best regards, --Kanonkas(talk) 18:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Answered, dealt with, thanks for letting me know. ++Lar: t/c 21:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

some questions[edit]

hi. As the title suggests I have some questions. I learned from your user page that you are an "oversighter" (or something like that). I clicked through and saw that there are two of these people and that they are not very active with their oversighter user instances. Is that typical and is that suggestive of other activity? -- carol (talk) 22:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Oversight is something that the more rarely it is used, the better. I'm not totally sure I understand your question, though, I'm active on this wiki and others. ++Lar: t/c 23:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
It is a wiki and an internet interface and there are user instances which as a collection are best and most easily described as schizophrenic. My questions probably really seem to be often unusual but so is the situation which inspires them.
You and I had an exchange several months ago, without looking into this I had several things happen since then. One of those things was being blocked on English wikipedia for what seems to be an administrators very personal take on a situation (the only glue I can find that explains the problems there -- if they are not my problem then they must be the problem of the person with the perception of them(?)). Since that time (after the exchange between you and me here and after the administrators with real perception problems blocked me at English wikipedia) many of the same "administration techniques" have "surfaced here" (I just watched Jaws again, forgive that language....). Weasel words being one of those things. I use the terminology "weasel words" to describe an administrator who does things but cannot say in their own words the reason they do those things.
I have a handful of actions of administrators here which are very questionable. There are also a lot of things that happened before the block at English wikipedia -- hell, I got blocked from my own project -- it is a world which should not be. To make matters even worse, I can see that people are for whatever reason not able to keep their dirty hands off from what was perfectly fine elsewhere. Like Jaws that I just watched, for instance -- I cannot verify this but it really seemed like the version I just saw had some "additions" made to it. No place for me to mention this so unfortunately it gets put into these attempts. And more than five years of this crap -- I don't know how many of these alterations I missed, but I do know that I saw plenty. Not all were bad either (I have some saved because they were funny and not too bad nor manipulative as many of these changes often seem to be).
What happens to non-communicative administrators who delete to protect themselves or perhaps they are bored and have some need to abuse their privs simply to upset users without the privs or perhaps they are just too stupid (not with intellectual capacity to learn, understand or to be patient while grasping new ideas or to ask someone who might actually know how to explain the situation -- all markers of intelligence to me and not unusual in the real world) to be trusted regardless of the vote or (and this is another option) they are oversighters who use other instances because they too are bored or whatever? There are (in my opinion) other things that can be done if such people are bored. And that is a terminology I learned from English wikipedia -- bored instead of board.
Things can be nice here but not with several of the administration working the way the do where I can see them. What can be done about that? -- carol (talk) 02:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

When your name was suggested[edit]

I will say this, that as soon as your name was suggested, problem administrators started to change their ways. If you would like to see when this happened, just let me know. -- carol (talk) 02:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

"Suggested" for which role? You've piqued my curiosity so yes, I would like to see when this happened. ++Lar: t/c 03:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict so that you could add the indention, so the "points" are not indented now)
  • That was an addition to the taxonomy naviagation template which was a direct link to off-site before I edited it.
  • User talk:Foroa‎; 21:44 . . (+391) . . Foroa (Talk | contribs) (→What do you know about rendering?) I haven't read this, btw. Communicating with that administrator is an exercise in futility.
That was today. Previously, I had a page which is a list of names that I use ("links to" is nice for this kind of thing) deleted by User:Giggy. Yesterday (today UTC) I called that user a bad dog which is unlike me but this user when asked said that the word giggy has the meaning of the female urination and birthing outlet organ, so I really wanted to avoid something like "bad kitty" and I don't like user instances with words that have those meanings. I cuss and say off color things but not like that, but yay freedom or whatever. Back to the administrative problems....
  • The first time it was deleted (and restored after I explained what I use it for -- not before and it was not on a list of deletions), a similar page for Fabacaecae (sp?) was deleted and I was already frustrated that pages be restored one at a time when the User instance should have (in my opinion) remembered that two had been deleted like this.
  • Giggy previously deleted a screenshot I took of how incredibly educated (either by self or formally) and intelligent the English wikipedia administration is. It is a screenshot where I was blocked for adding a url to an article. The blocking admin reverted my changes, reviewed the url and then added the url back to the article.
  • That same blocking admin saw through my sock also. There, my user name is also en:User:CarolSpears. When my IP was unblocked but my user instance wasn't, I made a "carefully disguised sock" called en:User:Spears, Carol.
So, my questions to Giggy are as if I am communicating with an admin who deletes screenshots because administration at English wikipedia is embarrassed by their actions (I should be able to dig that explanation out).
Today, yet another administrator put their user instance into the voting thing here and the reason they gave is that no one is doing the stuff that the admin is supposed to be doing here and getting many votes from admin that are here and doing stuff like what I just mentioned.
Once I saw a javascript which was administrative stuff that had a list of administrators that could use it. Since I saw that, I am now often wondering how many actual people are active here. I am hesitant to even complain here as you perhaps would be one of them using the shared administrative tools which is another thing that I am really sorry about. Not sorry in the "I feel responsible kind of way" but sorry in the "what the hell fun is that?" and other similar ways kind of way. -- carol (talk) 04:03, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

merge first ask questions later[edit]

"Merge" is similar to delete here....

use of the word "role"[edit]

You used the word role <-- here. ""Suggested" for which role?" Can you explain the way that you are using that word in that sentence and in this context? -- carol (talk) 06:18, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You said I was suggested. I was asking what it was I was suggested for, trying to understand the context of "your name was suggested". I would not attach any great significance to the word "role" but I'm still not clear on what exactly you are asking me about. The material you've presented is somewhat confusing to me. ++Lar: t/c 11:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I asked how to "decommission" admins here and your name was suggested and I provided instances where admins are deleting files for wrong reasons, unresearched reasons -- admin who cannot tell the difference between spam and useful lists and admin who delete files which are not nominated for deletion but do not spend time deleting the files which have been nominated for deletion.
I have a web page about a skit I saw called "confuse the cat" are you referring to that or are you actually not following this information. If the latter is the case, please ask questions about the points which you are not understanding. -- carol (talk) 17:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
OK. Is there something speceifically you want me to do here? What, specifically? Let's start with that, if there is. If not, then I think what you gave me is background information? Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 20:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
There is a not sane admin request occuring right now -- the requesting admin is offended by me asking what that users mind set was just 34 days ago.
Question the administrators -- I only showed a few. User:Foroa and User:Lycaon both have been involved with merging Plants of categories to Flora of categories. It destroyed a very good thing that was happening here and it was done without asking the person who was working on it (me). Find out the reason that User:Giggy doesn't feel the need to answer questions about randomly deleted files. If they are administrators on English wikipedia, check to see if they use the same mentality here -- not good for an international wiki.
Hell, I had an admin get upset at me that I asked what they meant when they pasted what english wikipedia calls a weasel word/phrase (...upset at me). If administrative actions are happening here for reasons that the acting administrator doesn't know -- that should be a problem, don't you think? Too aggressive, too much ability that is not being used for what admin is supposed to be doing and too little explanation about personal reasons for doing these things.
With the amount of administrative tasks that are going undone, I suggest that removing the privs from all of them will not hurt as many things here as allowing them all to have them does. -- carol (talk) 21:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If it is software that is being turned into administrators, a good way to make that cease is to de-admin anyone who votes in these things. One of the problems as I see it is that you have to be a voter to be able to become an admin here. So all of this voting crap gets started and no one does anything but vote and use software to mindlessly tag files and then gets to become an admin because of the voting and the mindlessly tagging files and then gets all offended if asked to show where they were not just mindlessly tagging files and voting.

One of my uncat screenshots

That candidtate for admin there is offended when asked to explain the thought behind doing what they were doing just 35 days ago. I suggest that evidence should be provided that it is not a software running before extra privs are given, regardless of the vote and regardless of the feeling of being harrassed since I asked what is a simple question. Hell, I had someone ask me about one image that I miss-categorized in Nov 2007 (I was still only a few months new here then) in June or July here (I think). I honestly had no idea how I miscategorized this, but the situation where it was miscategorized was a two or three day categorization spree I went on here and mistakes were made, especially when the image descriptions and image origins were sometimes just not there.

Is User:CarolSpears/English wikipedia harboring a grudge or is it documenting English wikipedia actions? Giggy said something about deletion due to embarrassment, I suggest that deleting the screenshot here is not the most productive way to manage embarrassment over the actions of administrators. -- carol (talk) 22:35, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I would not, and will not, "decommission" an admin on my own say so. We have, as a community, built a consensus and removed the sysop bit from someone, after a long and thoughtful discussion. So hopefully that's not what you are asking me to do. I'm still not clear on what, specifically, you're looking for from me, though. This seems to me like there is some dispute resolution that is needed to be done. What dispute resolution avenues have you tried so far? ++Lar: t/c 22:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Is User:CarolSpears/English wikipedia harboring a grudge or is it documenting English wikipedia administration actions? Giggy said something about deletion due to embarrassment, I suggest that deleting the screenshot here is not the most productive way to manage embarrassment over the actions of administrators. -- carol (talk) 23:06, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are asking my opinion: I would not characterise "makes an administrative action and also pads their personal edit history." as documenting actions neutrally, no... it seems to be language to avoid for best results when working with others. Whether it goes so far as to "holding a grudge" I could not say. Was there anything else specifically that you wanted me to do or comment on? ++Lar: t/c 23:14, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Write an acceptable description for that screenshot then. And, is a poorly written description an adequate reason to delete a screenshot which really was of actions that an administrator took at a different wikipedia? -- carol (talk) 23:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I follow why my writing a description for a screenshot is something I should do. I'm not at all sure where you are going with all of this. Sorry, but I don't. I don't have infinite time. ++Lar: t/c 02:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a poorly written description an adequate reason to delete a screenshot which really was of actions that an administrator took at a different wikipedia? -- carol (talk) 06:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
If this screenshot is somehow part of a grievance you have against someone at another wiki, you should use that wiki's dispute resolution process to resolve it. You should not keep lists of grievances here about actions there. So that suggests that the deletion might well be in order. Have you taken this to COM:RFU to see what the community thinks? ++Lar: t/c 08:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
What does "Oversighter" do -- using your own language, what is the role of an oversighter? -- carol (talk) 23:29, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
see m:Oversight_policy#Use for more information about what oversight is. I stand behind those words, especially since I have edits on that page. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 02:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
You cannot describe your function here using your own words? -- carol (talk) 06:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
A little reminder. You asked me what your role here was.... -- carol (talk) 06:29, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
No. I asked you what you thought my role was in whatever it was you were bringing me. I still have no idea what it is you actually are asking me to do. I am not here to answer random essay questions or do riddles for you at your command. If you have a specific issue or complaint that you can put succinctly, I'm willing to look at it, but when I look at the several screensful that are here now, all I get is that you have some rather vague and ill formed complaints against various administrators. The more you say, the less clear it becomes. I see nothing in all this that requires use of the oversight function so I'm not sure what the relevance of it is to this either. ++Lar: t/c 08:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
  • For the record, the best place to discuss a specific issue with my actions is User talk:Giggy As I said to you there, Carol, all I wanted was to know what you were talking about. Giggy (talk) 11:49, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Is a poorly written description an adequate reason to delete a screenshot which really was of actions that an administrator took at a different wikipedia? -- carol (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I can think of a lot of reasons to delete a screenshot. See what I said, above, at 08:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC). Carol: You need to discontinue this approach, it is not likely to be productive of whatever result it is you wish. Please read the thoughts Patricia shared with you on your talk page... they are very important. ++Lar: t/c 19:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Is a poorly written description an adequate reason to delete a screenshot which really was of actions that an administrator took at a different wikipedia?
Feel free to type slow, to think carefully about your answer and what the role of oversighter is here and then answer. I am sorry for so many words, one good question at a time from now on until the time that the question is answered and not pandered around. thank you the time you spend overseeing things here. (Ask me again what I think your role is, heh) -- carol (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
You don't have an inalienable right to ask questions of me until you are satisfied with the answer. Nor do you have an infinite claim on my time. I think this conversation should be over. If you have a specific point you want to make (not a question), please make it. ++Lar: t/c 20:02, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again![edit]

I was waiting to see if I could catch you on IRC, but either I've missed you or you haven't been around, so I thought I'd drop a note and say thanks again for the nomination. Much appreciated. I'm sure I'll see you around ;-) . Rjd0060 (talk) 23:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Request Name Change[edit]

Rlevse told me to post here: I would like to change from Henrydoktorski to Henry_Doktorski. 20:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Rlevse advised you incorrectly, see COM:CHU and follow the instructions there. You'll need to validate that you are who you say you are by providing some crosslinking. ++Lar: t/c 21:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I would like to change from Henrydoktorski to Henry_Doktorski. Is this better? Henrydoktorski (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

No, because you still need to request the change at COM:CHU. Please go there (follow the link), and follow the instructions there, to make the request, and it will be handled. I hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 20:51, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

tabula rasa[edit]

Are you winning or losing? -- carol (talk) 02:53, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Losing the inning... but the outcome of the game is not in any doubt. ++Lar: t/c 03:11, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
Is there anything worth reading on my talk page from your 03:13 entry there? I am kind of in a complicated (yet interesting to get together) section in this taxonomy thing.
Personally, I have 3 or 4 decades of almost never abusing privileges and almost always having obtained those privileges by accomplishment and the display of ability in what I am quite certain were almost always real situations. That you are questioning me like that and not questioning candidates for additional privileges here is a riddle you are involved in and I would like it to no longer include me. -- carol (talk) 03:40, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
This is about you, not anyone else. If you want to not be included in my attention, do not do things that draw my attention. You really ought to take a little time to answer the question I asked you. ++Lar: t/c 04:20, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
(off-topic comment; re 'attention' — I like that turn of phrase; it's generally applicable. no idea what the context here is... Jack Merridew 10:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC))
Thanks. The context here is Carol was, in my view and that of many others, misbehaving. She was speaking in riddles, and pursuing a quixotic quest for justice over something that happened elsewhere to the point that it was getting disruptive here. What will happen next is up to her. ++Lar: t/c 12:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I've seen the edges of some of this; I'm not going to into it look further. Your phrasing would work in a policy or two. I commented because I noticed this thread by it's being just above our section below. Jack Merridew 11:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

w:en:In the Heart of the Sea: The Tragedy of the Whaleship Essex[edit]


I'm guessing you wanted me to see that the vandalism reverts trimmed too much away. I put it back to the prior version. ++Lar: t/c 17:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

two-step vandalism with the aim of tricking someone into reverting only one-step back is a common tactic of you-know-who.
Anyway, thanks for fixing that one. Jack Merridew 10:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Too many "you know who"s for me to keep them all straight. Not sure which one this time :) ++Lar: t/c 12:38, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
It was an obvious vandal; the you-know-who, in this case, meant Grawp; he's done the two-step thing a lot and may have targeted that article because I created it. Or it was just a typical, en:wp, vandal; there are so many.
A lot of why I'm :( is that I see too much shite going on over there that I have to let go. So I stop paying much attention to all wikis. Too frustrating. Too many carrot-and-stick games. Too many 'articles' on crap, too many appropriate articles that get redirected; The Loss of the Ship "Essex" Sunk by a Whale and the Ordeal of the Crew in Open Boats, too many potential articles no one writes; Nantucket Historical Association Merridew 11:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
This is depressing; w:en:List of maritime museums in the United States :(

That's a lot of red links. Well, give you something to do when you get back then, eh? ++Lar: t/c 16:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not holding my breath. w:en:Jack Merridew may be a little boy[5], but this user isn't in front of the cart; I don't drive carts that way, either. —Jack Merridew 07:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
I may be several metaphors away from understanding... all I was saying was that I agree that it's a shame, and that there's always lots to do at en:wp. Further I hope, as we've discussed, that you will be returning there at some point, and sooner rather than later. ++Lar: t/c 18:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Lar. I don't intend to be speaking in the obscure voice. I am frustrated with the delays entailing my return to en:wp. Over 9,000 good reasons, &c. That many of them are on Indonesian, Javanese (and in Latin, on ws) and thus are off-radar for too many people is simply a demonstration that systemic bias is still the norm. My block is punitive. There is a ton of work to do on en.
see w:en:Riau Islands
and w:id:Kepulauan Riau (kepulauan means archipelago)
They're about the same province of Indonesia; see the iwlinks
They have different 'Lambang' in the infoboxes (like Coats of Arms, but not militaristic)
The one on en:wp is, of course, the one that's wrong; see the superseded note on Commons and who left it, and who fixed this issue on every other wiki.
The one on en:wp is the Lambang from when Kepulauan Riau was a Kabupaten (Regency) of Riau province — which is on Sumatra.
The image on the en:article is plain-wrong and should be changed. It's used in templates, too, which spreads the mistake around. The official website link on the en 'article' is wrong, too.
I'm aware of endless issues along these lines.
Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopaedia and should cover subjects like the administrative divisions of countries, the diverse ethnicities around the world, museums of all stripes, &c.… accurately. That en:wp is so misfocused on so many fundamentally unencyclopaedic subjects says a lot about the culture that most of the editors are from and explains a lot about why those cultures and countries are failing.
To too many of the anyone-can-edit editors, it's all a game; see below.
Cheers, Jack Merridew 09:53, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


Original Barnstar.png

For your checkuser work here. A small gold star for you. --Kelsington (talk) 22:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I endorse the above request for checkuser attention. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Someone's playing silly buggers. ++Lar: t/c 15:03, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Well it does say "small" and it isn't "gold" (on my screen anyway) so maybe it is just a hint.....--Herby talk thyme 15:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Ask John 'bout this. [6] [7] [8] Jack Merridew 15:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Either way, I'll soon disappear from all Wikimedia projects. --Kelsington (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That might be for the best. All these identities, claims, counterclaims, and so forth distract us from real work. ++Lar: t/c 18:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm reformed, even if the others aren't (sorry: we came from a gaming wiki where stupidity was tolerated to a degree, and thought it could carry on to Wikimedia - and that is the full real truth). We used the name of the sysop/bureaucrat who blocked us in 2006 when we were editing on his now-closed wiki and tried to start a vendetta. I don't have any malicious intentions, I've just been plain stupid. However, you will see a good editor on wikiversity and who I know, but isn't a vandal at all. You may as well delete my user/talk pages on any Wikimedia project where I am. --Kelsington (talk) 18:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I'd rather work with the project and wipe the slate clean, having seen what someone said on your Wikipedia talk page. Anyhow, I'm only 17, and was 15 when I started editing Wikipedia, as were some of my friends. I think it'd be best if we just moved on. I want to grow up now and let bygones be by-gones (??/) --Kelsington (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
    • The best way to do that is to make solid contributions. Don't try to curry favour (like with spurious barnstars... I've done nothing remarkable with my CUing here of late), don't get involved in investigations or pointing things out, just stick to articlespace (or here, imagespace) for the most part and over time things will fade. Thrashing around with conflicting stories about who did what helps not at all and is viewed as a timewaster. ++Lar: t/c 20:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Apologies for the spurious barnstars. I am not going to waste your time, I'll just take your advice. Please can you delete en:w:User:SunStar Net and the associated pages for me and get the account there renamed (or NOINDEX the pages, since the real Sunstar Net probably wouldn't like seeing an impostor in Google). I'll stick to imagespace as you said. When this discussion is over, can we courtesy-blank it?? --Kelsington (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

As that user managed to login here to request the deletion of his user page presumably he can do the same on en wp (again rather than you as you are not him). --Herby talk thyme 10:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Strongly agree. ++Lar: t/c 11:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)



There was a quistion on the irc today. A image was used on the mainpage on a project, and the wanted that the images was protected. I answerd that i was not going to protect te image but placed it on my watchlist.

Did i do right? Or is there a policy about images on a mainpage. Because i think whe have 624 mainpages. If we need to protect every day we need more admin's or a bot.

But how should you have handled it?

Cheers, Sterkebaktalk 16:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The answer to this has varied over time, as the technical capabilities have changed. One of the first reasons I went for adminship at commons was to be able to protect images used in w:WP:DYK while they were on the main page. With cascading protection that's not as absolutely necessary, but I do grant protection requests when asked. especially if it's temporary. If that project plans to use an image for a long time, they can upload a local copy and protect that. It's a good question. Asking around is a good approach, you are going to get different answers from different folk. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 17:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Your answer is helping me :-) Sterkebaktalk 07:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Can this be moved to Commons?[edit]

Dear Admin Lar,

  • (I'm asking you this question since Nilsfanion is away.) Can this image of Obama's half-sister, Maya, be moved to Commons or not? [9] It is not directly one of Maya but a projection of her...and I'm not sure if this makes it a derivative but she was certainly speaking at the DNC when the photo was taken. The image is likely legitimate since it has the accompanying Metadata. If Obama is elected, there might be more demand for a picture of Maya. So, I'm thinking in advance here. Can you give me an opinion here, please? Thank You, --Leoboudv (talk) 09:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Hi. I'm not a copyright expert but in my view you have to work the flowchart and see what answer you get. The person who took the image appears to have released their rights in a way that enables a move, but you have to consider the rights of others... was it taken in a public place? (that is, is the DNC a "public place"?) Does it contain copyrighted or trademarked material that should not be depicted without being licensed (who was taking the projected image? What rights were they asserting, if any?) Is that material only incidental to the representation, or is it key? Note that if that's the only issue, sometimes a crop, which removes that material, can solve it. ... Commons:Copyright provides a good overview, and Commons:Image casebook a good set of examples. The sections on concerts, and museums and interior photography provide guidance... also Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people is useful... if the convention was a "private place" then consent for images is required. However if there was a waiver or whatever that was a condition of entry, then maybe not. I hope that helps. Asking on VP is also useful... Oh, you asked my opinion. In my view, considering everything, it's likely that is a public place, that the figure primarily depicted is a public figure, that consent is not needed, and that there is no copyrighted material that is key to the representation or image. HOWEVER, if the image was supplied by a broadcast network, or a copyright was claimed by whoever was projecting/recording/transmitting, then no. The uploaded image is primarily about the projected image of this person. That needs answering. ++Lar: t/c 13:04, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Dear Admin Lar, Maybe I shouldn't touch it. As I feared, this is more complicated then it appears. I now wonder whether I should place a do not move to Commons sticker on the image file. Is that appropriate? --Leoboudv (talk) 19:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Not necessarily. I suggest instead of doing that tagging, seek additional guidance. Take it to the Village Pump or the copyright casebook talk pages... Others are far smarter with this stuff than I am. ++Lar: t/c 19:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)


Dear Lars, Isn't this painting copyright free: [10] meaning it can be placed on Commons under a pd-art license? The artist died centuries ago. I had such a question for Nilsfanion once on a photo of a sculpture in Denmark and he told me it could be moved to Commons because the artist died in 1933. He said the general rule was 70 yrs after the author's death. Is that correct? --Leoboudv (talk) 21:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be free of copyright to me given the age. Before moving it I would as that a much more detailed provenance be given.. make sure all of the {{information}} template is filled out, at a minimum, but yes. Again, fair warning, my opinion, which may be wrong. ++Lar: t/c 05:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry to say this but I just found Hal's painting here: Image:Hals obraz 1.jpg and it is on Commons. However, this portrait by Rubens (1577-1640) is not on Commons: [11] Question: Can I download this image on Commons and use this MFA source and give the license as 'PD-Art' like this Image:Peter Paul Rubens25.jpg? What about this other image by Rubens in the MET: [12]. Its also not on Commons. If I use it the source would be MET. Question: do I give this museum site's images as the source (as a http link)? Is that acceptable for these old that museums' can't claim copyright on old paintings where the artists has been dead more than 70 years? I just want to be sure here. Thank You from Canada, --Leoboudv (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure exactly what you're asking me. I am trying to help you but there are other folk you can ask too, you may want to become familiar with the Commons:Village Pump and some of the resources linked from it. My response time is not always the greatest. When I am giving provenance, I give 3 links. One to the image itself, one to the page where I found the image (in their gallery or whatever) and one to the front page of the site. Hope that answers part of it? 03:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Commons image move[edit]

  • By the way, can you fix the problem here? I just moved this image via Commonshelper with my TUSC account and now the Commons image says it lacks "missing source information" and may be deleted. This seems bizarre since the author, "Harm", is clearly stated: Image:Philae first pylons.jpg This is the original image on WP: [13] Thank You, --Leoboudv (talk) 07:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
The original image doesn't say where w:user:Harm got the image from... did he take it himself? Find it somewhere? At least not directly, but it's implied he took it by the form of license asserted. I'd add that "Harm took this image" to the information box (which I thank you for adding) and then drop a note to whoever placed the "lacking source info" there to see if they'll lift it. ++Lar: t/c 17:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Dear Sir, Can you please use your Admin tools and delete the problematic first image here:Image:Philae first pylons.jpg. I've uploaded a 'correct' duplicate replacement here: Image:Philae first pylons1.jpg I have specifically requested that you deal with the problematic first image. Thank You from Metro Vancouver--Leoboudv (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Deleted. Note that to fix a description problem you can use Edit to change or augment the text that is displayed below the image, you don't have to upload a whole new image. ++Lar: t/c 03:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

As an Aside, I had asked you this question earlier...but can I use this 1609 painting by Rubens from the MFA for Commons: [14] and cite this link as the source? (This portrait by Rubens is Not on Commons--I checked twice) I would imagine the MFA doesn't own copyright over it now...right? --Leoboudv (talk) 20:15, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  • I think so. See above. ++Lar: t/c 03:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks for all your help Lars. If you weren't an Admin already, I would certainly have voted for you...just as I just voted on Wuzur's RfA today. Regards from Vancouver, Canada --Leoboudv (talk) 06:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
      • No worries. BTW, it's "Lar" (short for "Larry") not "Lars" :) Common mistake, not to worry. ++Lar: t/c 10:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Watermark question[edit]

I'm sorry to disturb you again but this is important. I need to know how to deal with copyright free images that bear a watermark on them. Not a copyright watermark but rather an image with a timestamp mark. Specifically this on Hungarian wiki: [15] or [16]. I know how to move them to Commons but is there a way to remove the timestamp...or would an image with a timestamp be tagged automatically for deletion if it is moved to Commons? I'm sorry but I am not an expert on these matters. Do you have a response here? Thank You, --Leoboudv (talk) 09:11, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

We prefer not to have watermarks if at all possible (or timestamps). I believe the preferred approach is to upload the image, and then fix it, and upload it again, and crosslink the two images, with text that encourages use of the unwatermarked (untimestamped) image. With the Queen Nefertiti image, fixing is easy, you can cut and paste some black background in from somewhere else in the image. However, the other image, the watermark seems to be in a rather important spot, cropping it away loses part of the picture. I'd ask the Commons:Graphic Lab folk to see if they could fix it for you. They are quite good. That page explains how to do so. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 10:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)