User talk:Verdy p

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For contacting me, please see fr:Utilisateur:verdy_p, or use my talk page at fr:Discussion Utilisateur:verdy_p.

[edit] Pic of the Day

Hi. I translate captions for Pic of the Day from time to time but now I'm in a bit of a trouble about this template: Template:Potd/2007-01. I've created a lacking Polish caption Template:Potd/2007-01-02 (pl), "What links here" shows it is linked to the main template but I can't see its contents anywhere on the main January page with the other existing translations. Maybe you can help me sort it out, as the author of the January template page. Regards, Maire 03:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, i have a similar problem with Template:Potd/2007-02-03 (de). It is not appearing on the Febuary 2007 page. I have the feeling it has sth to do with the number of digits you use for the day. But i am not sure. --AngMoKio 13:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The day numbering did not use a leading 0 between the 1st and the 9th of the month until january 2007 where this extra digit was introduced, breaking the current rule. isuppose this was an error, because I can't see any decision. If a leading 0 must be there, then all the history up to december 2006 would have to be renamed (lots of templates to rename!).

So until this change is discussed, I think this was an edit error when Bastique created the new months for january and february 2007 and this should be reverted before there are too many templates to rename (note that the TOC at the top of the page does not work as the links don't include the 0).

If day numbering must change later, this should be done coherently for the history... Currently january and february 2007 will break templates everywhere !Verdy p 15:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed it for consistency, as the months were using two digits, whereas the days were not. It is a very simple change in the templates--change {{CURRENTDAY}} to {{CURRENTDAY2}} and there will be no need to revert things going forward. Very simple change, and maintains consistency. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 15:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the reason that the items were not appearing had nothing to do with the digits. It was a cache and purge issue, undoubtedly. The items are appearing now.Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 15:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe I fixed the templates to link to {{CURRENTDAY2}}, so there should be no broken images relating to this change. There was no error. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 15:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes thisbreaksinJanuary at least, and it isa major reason why there are so few available translations: all user sandboxes used to edit the months ineachlanguage are broken (and unfortunately there's no other way to add translations correctly, given that the "add language" link is now broken). For january at least, we need synonyms.

Such change should have been done coherently by applying the newnaming policy to ALL past articles (meaning: ask for the help of a bot to rename the history), and makesure that Potd/months calendar templates are updated with the new naming for days. We need time to change the user sandboxes, given that it is now impossible to translate the descriptions without them, and lots of user calendars need fixing. Verdy p 15:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

This also applies to bots that import POTD in the various wikis. Verdy p 15:58, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

First off, your should NOT have moved all of these tempaltes. Your assertions were incorrect in that the various language templates were broken because of the move.

Secondly, I did all the work necessary to fix the issues regarding the date change.

Thirdly, the use of single digis for dates while using double digits for months is wrong.

Fourthly, pleasse identify each and every bot that imports these into the various wikis. I am only familiar with fr.wikipedia's import, which can easily be adjusted. I am moving all of these back.

Thank you. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 19:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not made any false assumptions. This is just transitional for compatiblity that synonyms were created.

What you have changed was discussed absolutely nowhere, and that's why people were wondering why their bots did not work, or why their translation sandboxes were no more working.

Your change (among others) has caused troubles, especially because it was not documented in time. Now we are at a few days from january and it's probably to late for January to get stable. Anyway we must continue without it and help translators getting back to Commons.

I have fixed lots of area where these were broken, that's why they were not moved but renamed to create synonyms for January only. The new naming is still usable. There are many more languages than just English and French. And in fact, there are other problems caused by the impossibility to translate the image captions for most users; that's where I have worked a lot to fix that for most languages. Some other changes (unrelated to the changeofday number format) were even more problematic, causing POTD to be partly translated,or the translationnot being effectively accessible due to naming problems (and sometimes naming conflits).

I have not touched other months after january; the synonyms were necessary, just for the transition period, to make sure that all works, as there may remain corrections to apply.

Since my corrections, translators are coming back, and get access to the appropriate place, and there's no more need to use a personnal sandbox. For translators, this is mostly a "click-and-type" job directly from the page, as it was before the changes.

Verdy p 20:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

In looking at your contributions it seems that you have spent hours creating a very bad and unmanageable situation which I unfortunately have no time to undo. You should not have taken this action upon yourself without any discussion or concensus. Your comments throughout the process have been remarkably condescending and have entirely destroyed any goodwill I could possibly have for your efforts. I will spend some time reverting your changes.

Furthermore: Please stop placing blame on every Mediawiki issue regarding image display on my use of two digits in place of one for POTD. It is unsubstantiated and entirely untrue. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 19:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This is fully manageable. And I'd like to know where,beside thispage, I have put such comments or blaming about MediaWiki. That's not the truth! Verdy p 20:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And stop bolds. I am not shouting on your page. Verdy p 20:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little perterbed by all this. First off, I haven't been able to understand your English very well. Sorry, but if you have an en-4 ability, it's not coming out very clearly.

I have gone to great lengths to fix the problem with single digit days on POTD. Single digit days do not alphebetize correctly and it is ugly. This is why I fixed things for Janary and going forward. Now I see that you have created a huge problem with the change that I made, without discussion or even asking why I bothered to make that change in the first place.

Note, I have had thousands of contributions on Commons...this is my home wiki. I don't just "do things" carelessly or half-assed. You've only recently become active here (I've never seen you until recently.)

I've reverted the page moves you made, but it will take hours...days to fix every link on every POTD page that you have now created, when it would have been simpler for you to merely ask.

I urge you to help with this. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 20:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you're wrong, I have not changed any links! Day numbering is still 2 digits, even now on all pages starting in January! You may not have understood something. There were much less days renamed to synonyms than other places that were fixed. I have found absolutely no place where your changes were discussed; and even if you think your work was complete, it was not (and others have made other changes that were detrimental too and unfinished, causing problems to everyone, especially for languages which are not in the top-4.) Verdy p 20:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, let us have the two digits dates. No, there was no discussion prior to this. I was the only one working on it at all at the time. Nobody else wanted to be involved except for the occasional self-promoting photographer wanting to put his non-Quality picture non-Featured image on the POTD list that I would have to remove.

Obviously you've spent a lot of time on this, so you may go a long way in helping resolve the situation. I was upset when I discovered all the Template moves that you had made. I don't understand what you mean by "synonym". It's not the same as in English for whatever your discussing, thus increasing the confusion. Cary "Bastiq▼e" Bass ^demandez 20:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

synonyms are two linksgoing to the same place. Nothing else. I have not changed that; this was just an emergency measure, before January comes. There are still other things to change but the very few places where 1 digit was still needed are minor face to the other unrelated edits, which have been discussed since months.

I am contributing since long to Commons,though that's not my primary place (that's why I was not always logged on for most of my minor edits). I have not complained about any MediaWiki bug regarding the 1/2day digit day numbering. There was only a problem in the way MediaWiki handles some image captions, this was immediately accepted and corrected in hours n the software but it was really not related to your change.

You are complaining that I should have discussed, but your ownchange was completely undiscussed everywhere. (My changes where discussed months ago when there was the discussion about Potd/new, and I have updated the document there). You made it "for coherence" but this was not necessary because the day numbering did not cause any problem before. Your change needing CURRENTDAY2 instead of CURRENTDAY is now causing inconsistencies in the history, and this requires some complex code to test the format used before january 2007: that's something I have fixed in Template:Potd/Month; but I won't ask for a bot to rename all the history. There are too many places to change, and there's no emergency to change this now. I have restored the functionality of histories (including for the current month of December! Where only 1-digit days are used). Verdy p 20:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bandeaux de licence en anglais

Bonjour Verdy, Sur Commons, les bandeaux de licence sont en anglais, même si les licences elles-mêmes sont dans d'autres langues. Il y a en effet des licences en chinois, en suédois ou en français, et il faut en effet donner le lien vers la licence dans la bonne langue; par contre les bandeaux doivent être en anglais par défaut pour être compréhensibles par la majorité, et bien sûr traduits dans un maximum de langues. Merci de te conformer aux usages de Commons sans imposer ta façon de faire. Et par pitié, pas de messages de 3 km de long comme réponses :-) le Korrigan →bla 13:16, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Et pourtant CeCiLL n'est légale qu'en français (en v1), et n'a aucune valeur en anglais. Le problème est que l'avertissement indique de ne pas utiliser la seule langue qui ait une valeur authentique, et quele bandeau anglais est plus ambigu que le bandeau français car il ne mentionne pas la version (au contraire de la version française qui était l'original et qui était liée depuis le début à la version 2)!

Bref l'avertissement imposé est FAUX. Le français n'est PAS une traduction du bandeau anglais, c'est justement le contraire! Et c'est le bandeau anglais qui a été mal traduit en ne mentionnant pas la version exacte dans le lien! Verdy p 13:33, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

juste pour info, le site CeCILL c'est plusieurs licences distinctes:

CeCILL : authentique uniquement en Français, compatible GPL
CeCILL v2 : authentique en Français ou en Anglais, compatible GPL
CeCILL-B : authentique en Français ou en Anglais, compatible BSD
CeCILL-C : authentique en Français ou en Anglais, compatible LGPL

Mentionner l'adresse dusite sans préciser exactement la licence dans le bandeau Anglais est une énorme erreur! Bref seul le bandeau français authentique est correct! Preuve encore que l'anglais est une traduction (mal faite) au contraire de ce que prétend l'avertissement ajouté! Verdy p 13:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

J'étais assuré de ce genre de réaction: sous prétexte d'"uniformiser" les messages, on remplace des licences exactes par des messages faibles qui n'ont aucune valeur de licence, au mépris des droits élémentaires des auteurs qui ont désigné expressément une licence préciseet non un paquet de licence! Vous avez légalement tord de remplacer des licences correctes CeCILL/fr par un bandeau flou CeCILL en Anglais.

D'autre part quand je suisintervenuc'est parce que certains bandeaux d'autres traductions contenaient des messages farfelus et non une indication de licence. Et j'ai bien vu que le bandeau français original avait été mal traduit en anglais puis affublé de l'avertissement tout aussi farfelu (et en fait illégal) que pouvaient l'être les autres bandeaux. Je regrette sincèrement que vous ne compreniez pas le problème légal que cela comporte!

Pour cette raison le bandeau anglais (créé en 2004 avant que la v2 existe) doit être corrigé! Verdy p 13:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Note: remplacer une mention de propriété intellectuelle par une autre complètement différente (tous les mots sont changés!) est illégal selon les termes de la licence (article 6.5) qui mentionne explicitement:

Le Licencié s'engage expressément: 1.à ne pas supprimer ou modifier de quelque manière que ce soit les mentions de propriété intellectuelle apposées sur le Logiciel; 2.à reproduire à l'identique lesdites mentions de propriété intellectuelle sur les copies du Logiciel modifié ou non.

Bref je suis sûr d'avoir raison! Les avertissements demandant de remplacer CeCILL/fr par CECILL uniquement en anglais sont illégaux, de même le fait d'avoir abusivement modifié des centaines de fichiers sur Commons pour remplacer CeCILL/fr par CeCILL! (notamment tous ceux parus en 2004); Verdy p 14:09, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Si le bandeau anglais est faux, corrige-le, n'hésite pas. Mais sur Commons, les bandeaux de licence sont en anglais par défaut, il faut que tu comprennes qu'il y a une différence entre un bandeau de licence et la licence elle-meme. Merci, le Korrigan →bla 15:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commons:Picture of the Year/2006 competition

I'm working on the Commons:Picture of the Year/2006 competition, due to be launched next Thurday, 1st Feb. We have a couple of templates, as below, that will be added to the Commons mains pages, and used to attract voters, but we need some help with translations. I wonder if you'd be able to assist, please? Many thanks. --MichaelMaggs 09:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

French page and templates have been completed, see

Voulez-vous aider à récompenser le meilleur du meilleur ? Venez maintenant voter dans le
Concours de l’image Commons de l’année 2006
Le vote de sélection des finalistes est ouvert jusqu’au 14 février.

Commons:Picture of the Year/2006/banner1/fr :

Quelle sera la meilleure image de 2006 ? Les candidats ont été sélectionnés. Participez maintenant en votant pour la finale du
Concours de l’image Commons de l’année 2006
Le vote final pour désigner l’Image Commons de l’année 2006 est ouvert jusqu’au 28 février.

Verdy p 13:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the translations! Would you be able to do this page as well, please? --MichaelMaggs 09:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Commons:Picture of the Year/2006/final

[edit] Numbers in POTY gallery

Don't worry about the numbers. The number in the voting list (and gallery) was reduced from 323 to 321 here on 31st Jan, before voting started. It was to remove two pictures that had been de-featured. The entire competition has been correctly run with 321 images. --MichaelMaggs 18:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POTY 2006 - missing votes

I did not want to interfer with the routine voting verification but I have too. We have a complaint from user Tsui here about a missing vote. This was the result of a mistake, or an act of vandalism, by User:75.5.9.244 at 3 Feb, 21:42 and affected also the votes from users Amrum, Wing045 and Dannycas (and maybe others, I didn't verify). The incident was not corrected to the moment and affects the voting results. I'm sending this message also to Bryan. Alvesgaspar 17:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I am currently a bit busy with school, and cannot look after the POTY until the weekend. If it is not fixed tomorrow evening, I will look into it. I will also notify WarX, as he is currently doing the counting stuff. -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shortlist

Please do not link a page with your own preferences. This is really not fair! You may link a shortlist according to votes only! For this reason i had to remove the link to your personnal page from the voting page! Verdy p 23:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? These are the best classified pictures, not my own preferences! I have removed the link and put only the gallery. Please give your opinion in the talk page before altering things. Alvesgaspar 02:51, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modifications by user 75.5.9.244

I have already reverted modifications by user 75.5.9.244. Please see above (POTY 2006 missing votes) and also on POTY 2006 discussion page. But I am not sure it was an act of vandalism, maybe only a clumsy edit. Alvesgaspar 03:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POTY 2006 - 1st phase - closing rules

Nous avons besoin de votre aide pour organizer la fermeture de la première phase, et vérifier et compter les votes. Priez de voir Commons talk:Picture of the Year/2006#1st phase - closing rules (my French doesn't seem good, there is a long time that I don't speak it). Alvesgaspar 22:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] problems with SVG

hi thankyou for trying to help me with the svg. you see i have tryed a bit of everything to solve it. including changing of program. notmally when changing the size of the thumbnail a pixel bigger or smaller it works. but i can not do that in galleries. so it remains being a problem. Right now i am trying to use the method you described to me, with the image Image:Osmotic pressure on blood cells diagram.svg but the first 2 tryes have resulted in a completly white screen. for that i have some example to ask you if i am doing it right:

i should delete the part in the square...

<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/1.1/DTD/svg11.dtd"

[
	<!ENTITY ns_extend "http://ns.adobe.com/Extensibility/1.0/">
	<!ENTITY ns_ai "http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/">
	<!ENTITY ns_graphs "http://ns.adobe.com/Graphs/1.0/">
	]

> <svg version="1.1".....

then look in the text for "&ns_extend ;", "&ns_ai;" and "&ns_graphs;" and substitut them with the url ("http://ns.adobe.com/Extensibility/1.0/", "http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/", "http://ns.adobe.com/Graphs/1.0/") , including the "".
- should i also add a ; here?

No! The ";" is part of the reference so in a sequence like "xxxx&ns_ai;yyyy", all the characters between "xxxx" and "yyyy" (i.e. including the first character "&" of the reference and its last character ";") must be substituted as a whole, by the value specified in the middle of the quotes in the ENTITY definition.

The quotes surrounding the value specified in the ENTITY definition are NOT part of the substituted value.

In a XML namespace definition like:

 xmlns:mynamespace="&myextensionurl;2"

where the referenced entity named myextensionurl is defined as:

<!ENTITY myurl "http://www.mywebsite.org/"> <!ENTITY myext "mysvgextensions/"> <!ENTITY myextensionurl "&mysvg;&myext;">

The correct substition of the entity will generate:

 xmlns:mynamespace="http://www.mywebsite.org/mysvgextensions/2"

Note how the quotes surrounding the xml namespace definition are not affected by the substitution of the named entity which does not include them.

There are only four named entity references that are predefined in SVG (and in XML) and that you should never substitute without extreme care (because it could cause an xml syntax problem. These are

< which stands for <
> which stands for >
& which stands for &
" which stands for "

All the other named entities are non-standard without a definition in some DTD (for example in the DTD implied or referenced by HTML documents, or defined in the standard DTD specified by the URL at the top of the SVG document in its initial <!DOCUMENT ... > statement, which is the only place where the substitution of named entities is impossibleandforbidden by XML specifications).

Verdy p 06:20, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

that is all i have done to the moment. as for the illustration options ;here you can see the dialog box. even when i have tryed all posible convinations and nothing seems to afect it.. i hope this help you to find what is wrong. i am glad for any help.-LadyofHats 20:26, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
EY! it does seem to work. i had to change the css properties to "style elements" deactivate all other options and then do what you told me with the ENTITY text. and like magic :). i will go over all my files and do the same. thankyou very much for the hint.-LadyofHats 21:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

If you are using a text editor to perform such cleanup (because these extensions are not necessary for the SVG rendering but may be only useful for the editing program that was used to create it), you may take profit of this manual edit to perform some cleanup in the generated XML code

some SVG editors are really too verbose (for example Inkscape and Sodipodi which is based on Inkscape) and do generate too many CSS properties without factorizing them in groups or using shared definitions; many of these CSS styles are even not necessary for correct rendering as they have all the standard default values of these properties;
Adobe Illustrator and others are also including their own namespaces for staring other editing properties; these properties are never used when rendering the SVG (they may for example contain the source definition of a path or glyph, and the transformations that were applied to them to create the final actual path, for example with arcs of ellipses or whencomputing the rendered intersection of simpler objects and forms, or a projection of a 3D object whose 3D coordinates are kept in meta-data)
They may also often store meta-data specific to the editor and related to the file, that is used for your local management of SVG files (for example the names of the local libraries used)
Some extension meta-data properties that may be useful to keep are those in the RDF namespace : they may contain a description, a copyright, licencing terms, and conditions of use (allowed for display but not for printing, or forbidding the creation of derived works; if such usage restrictions are there, they should not be deleted, and such SVG images are not suitable for Commons). But most often, the descriptions are not filled, and they should be.
Some editors are also inserting unnecessary comments that may be safely removed
Some editors are abusing the usage of indentation, and are often using unnecessary whitespaces in the middle of the definition of a path.
Some editors are storing coordinates numbers with a really too high precision, and don't allow fixing their exact value: often, this results from the internal computing by applying multiple transforms or manual edits in WYSIWYG mode at various display scales, and this causes some imprecisions in the final rendering (this is aproblem when the figure has really a strict geometry, or when multiple areas are joined side by side, because their common borders do not overlap exactly as they should, causing vizual artefacts like variable border weights, or transparent gaps between two areas).
This can be fixed by editing the XML code if you understand the SVG semantics (the official standard SVG specifications are available publicly for free on the http://www.w3.org website; this is a very valuable source of information if you want to make perfect SVGs, to perform things that are not very easy to do with your SVG editor alone which is most often designed to edit graphics in WYSIWIG mode where small details or imperfections are not easy to see or edit).
A manual edit of a generated SVG file will very often divide its size (and the number of instructions to process in the sVG renderer) dramatically (often by a factor of 5 to 10), without affeting its quality (most often, the quality will be even improved).
There are some external SVG optimizers available on the web: they don't modify the graphic, but perform such cleanup of unnecessary things, including the very frequent superfluous whitespaces, or unfactorized CSS properties, or the default CSS property values that may be inherited using groups with <g>)

Verdy p 06:00, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image Wikiversity-logo.svg

Hi Verdy p, I have seen you have upload (on 20 September) a new version of Image:Wikiversity-logo.svg. I really appreciate neat code made by hands instead of long and difficult to understand code made by programs. However the code of the image you upload was not svg valid [1] and the result was a blank image. So I edited the image (from your source) and uploaded it (on 21 September) after (hopefully) solved the issues. However I had to do a guess for the gradient of the colour (there were some parameters missing). So I would kindly ask you, if you have time, to see if the current version is acceptable or if it requires some changes. -- AnyFile 09:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The previous version was not valid XML. That's why I edited it. But it WAS valid SVG, was correctly rendered by Adobe SVG renderer, by several SVG editors, by the Wikipedia renderer. it had NO missing parameter, not even in the gradients that were correctly referenced (so it must be your limited SVG renderer that is not conforming, and does not honor xlink:hrefs, despite it was correctly bound; there was no guess to do, one gradient was linked to the other, using standard syntax). Verdy p 18:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Also I will restore the meta data you have deleted: this is required for keeping the needed copyright within the file.

I had removed the inclusing of the text within the SVG rendering part, but I had kept it in the metadata for this purpose.

There was no error, and it was already validating according to W3C (before my changes, it was invalid because of XML incorrect syntax, even if it was still accepted by the Wikimedia thumbnail renderer; in addition it was referencing an inexistant XML namespace that was not defined (that's why it did not render anywhere else...

So I will restore the copyrights you have deleted... Verdy p 19:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Petronas_Towers_view_by_night.jpg

Seidenstud replies here to my previous request (on his discussion page) to about the status of this image. Verdy p 03:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC):

That is not at all how I understand it. My understanding is that Public/Private has nothing to do with licensing. If you look at that image's flickr page, it clearly is listed as "All Rights Reserved." That is not at all the same as CC-BY. I will bring this to COM:FLICKR and see if anyone can clarify this. -Seidenstud 02:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Since Flickr has been boughtr by Yahoo, nothing is clear now... The interface is extremely confusive about the licencing terms. This has changed this the time I uploaded it from the English Wikipedia (where it was initially stored by someone else, but it has since been dropped from English Wikipedia, because it was on Common...).

Can you find the original upload from En.Wikipedia where it was ? I would not have uploaded it to Commons, without first verifying the licence when it was displayed on English Wikipedia.

How can we check the status if Flickr changes its policy without notice ?

If I made something wrong, I'm sorry, this was not intended, because I thought I had verified everything... Verdy p 02:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's fine. The whole flickr thing can be very confusing. And to make matters worse, Flickr users can change the copyright status of their images without any sort of paper trail. So here, we have a whole system devised whereby images are confirmed. Your image was checked by a bot who was unable to confirm the licensing. So, I looked at it manually and saw that the photographer put "All rights reserved" which effectively makes the photo unsuitable for the commons unless it was at some point licensed under CC-BY, etc. But at this point we cannot prove that, so the image unfortunately would probably have to be deleted.

I have no idea how we could go about finding the old version on the english wikipedia. It was probably deleted long ago, and wold not be able to prove anything anyhow.

Thanks though for your excellent uploads here! -Seidenstud 02:28, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually I never visit Flickr, unless I am required to do it. And now that it's owned by Yahoo, that's even worse, because I really don't like the practices of Yahoo in terms of privacy and commercial promotion within all sorts of softwares where it comes with bundled bars that must always be carefully unchecked before installing (and Yahoo never memorize the fact that I don't want their bulky bar...)

So most of my downloads to Commons are made manually, or composed from other sources. I don't upload very often, and I try to do my best to avoid putting things that I can't trust.

So delete this image. If I uploaded it, that's because of the past verifications I did (and at that time, your verification process was probably not active or not known or not working). I was just interested in getting an existing illustration, present in the English Wikipedia, to be used also on the French Wikipedia, by sharing it on Commons.

Sorry for the inconvenience. Next tim I will be even more careful about Flickr images, because this source is not reliable... Verdy p 02:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Image deletion warning

Image:Petronas_Towers_view_by_night.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this image, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. If the file is up for deletion because it has been superseded by a superior derivative of your work, consider the notion that although the file may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new file.
In all cases, please do not take the deletion request personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Seidenstud 03:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Meuse (river)

Bonjour, je ne comprends pas vos changements ni la structure de Category:Meuse (river) et Category:Meuse River qui prêtent à la confusion. Il s'agit de la même fleuve il me semble. Est-ce que vous pourriez le documenter dans Category:Meuse (river) et/ou Category:Meuse. Merci. --Foroa 07:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Oui il s'agit bien de la même chose. C'est l'unification des cartégories et conventions de nommage les plus utilisées qui impose de classer l'une dans l'autre, pour n'en garder qu'une comme principale, et mettre un lien de redirection pour la classification.

Sur Commons, les convention de nommage sont basées sur la version anglaise, même si les orthographes natives sont préférées.

Je n'ai pas fait de confusion. Meuse est à la fois une rivière et un département français et désigne plusieurs régions de 3 pays. Il y a la classification nécessaire. Avant cela, on trouvait des infos sur la Meuse en Belgique dans unse sous-catégorie de "Meuse" le seul département français... C'était inapproprié et on trouvait d'autrers photos mal classées (de Belgique dans le département français, ou l'inverse...

Verdy p 22:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Je vois. Votre classification avec le département Meuse était effectivement nécessaire. Ma remarque portait uniquement sur Category:Meuse River et Category:Meuse (river). Le problème vient du fait qu'il n'y pas d'uniformité entre les noms des rivieres, même en France. Les noms suivants sont possible avec les "règles" des commons: Meuse river - Meuse (river) - Meuse, river. Les noms suivants sont incorrectes, principalement par la mauvaise utilisation des majuscules : Meuse River - Meuse (River) - Meuse (rivière).

De toute façon, commencer une nouvelle catégorisation avec un autre nom parceque le nom actuel ne convient pas ne résoud rien: il vaut mieux de garder une seule catégorie ensemble et proposer un renommage global qui peut être fait par des robots. Donc je propose de réintégrer Category:Meuse River (nomincorrecte) dans Category:Meuse (river) et éventuellement procéder à un changement de nom de Category:Meuse (river). --Foroa 07:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Non je suis plutôt de l'avis de garder Category:Meuse River car ce schéma de nommage est le plus utilisé (y compris par les principales rivières et fleuves français et d'ailleurs), afin de faciliter la gestion des liens sur Commons (qui sont basés sur un schéma anglophone). A ce sujet, les rivières françaises ne sont pas toutes QUE françaises... Donc nécessité de s'accorder aussi avec les autres langues et pays limitrophes.

L'usage de "(river)" est contraire aux noms utilisés partout ailleurs sur Commons.

D'ailleurs je travaille sur la classification des régions, départements, et catégories communes, et j'en fusionne déjà un certain nombre, en recherchant les conventions les plus utilisées avant d'en faire une isolément.

Verdy p 07:47, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Personellement, je trouve que le nom "Meuse river" est le nom correct, "Meuse River" n'est pas correcte et Meuse (river), bien correcte, n'est pas cohérent avec les autres. Mon problème est que ça n'aide pas de catégoriser le même sujet sous deux noms différents: soit on le met sous un nom ou soit sous un autre, donc naturellement je prends celui qui est le plus peuplé, Si le nom doit changer, aucun problème: il y a des robots pour aider avec ce travail. Personalement, je trouve que le nom final est moins important: le plus important est d'éviter deux catégories pour le même sujet. --Foroa

Si! c'est important! Pour la navigation sur commons et la cohérence des catégories, et aussi pour aider à catégoriser les nouvelles images et s'y retrouver facilement (y compris quand ce sont les robots qui doivent classer des tonnes d'images, ou les importer automatiquement d'autres Wikipédias). C'est à cause de ces différences qu'on se retrouve avec des catégories en doublon, et les robots ne savent justement pas faire le tri sans des tonnes d'interventions manuelles pour reclasser le tout. En revanche, ce qu'un robot sait faire c'est consulter les listes marquées avec {{categoryredirect}} : on classe une catégorie en doublon dans l'autre, et on y place ce modèle, un robot se charge de faire le déplacement. Avant de faire appel à un robot, on utilise {{moveto}} et {{movefrom}} pour permettre de discuter du changement (il peut y avoir plusieurs choix possibles pour la réorganisation). Verdy p 08:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Pour moi, le plus important c'est de ne pas avoir des doublons comme vous venez d'en créer. Le nom correcte est un autre débat qui demande aussi un consensus. Le redirect est une mauvaise solution parceque ca amène l'utilisateur dans une autre catégorie et il ne voit plus les impages qui sont dans la catégorie originale. Les robots ne font strictement rien avec les redirects, ni avec les moves. Le move signale la volenté de faire un renommage. Le renommage est uniquement fait sur des pages spéciales ou on peut demander des transferts. --Foroa 09:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ne perdons pas notre temps: je propose d'intégrer les deux cats en un et d'ouvrir un débat pour une uniformisation des noms des rivières parce que je ne vois aucun pays ou c'est uniforme. --Foroa 09:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Départements en France

Je suis content de voir que vous adressez d'une façon systématique les départements en France. Il me manquait la connaissance et le courage de m'y mettre. --Foroa 15:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality images candidates

Bonjour, I removed one of your images because it was double-listed in both both the main candidate list and the consensual review section. The former is for a single one-person review; and the latter is a vote tallied across multiple users. I'm restoring my comment to the consensual review section, but I'll leave it to you to decide which of the two you prefer to keep listed -- they shouldn't be listed under both sections. Cheers! --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 01:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Can't I make some comments in the vote section? The nomination section is too short for that ... I did not list myself in the voters. I followed the guidelines. Verdy p 01:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure you are welcome to make comments: it's just that the image itself only has to be in one section or the other; no need to be in both. If there is discussion involved, it should probably remain in the consensual review section. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 01:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Verdy p I think you should look carefully at the guidelines and QI process (if a translation is required let us know). In short here is the process:

You create a nomination entry, with a short description. This is not FP, the qualities of the image speak for themselves, this is mainly a technical evaluation, a long description is not needed.
Someone reviews your image, and either agrees with your nomination (promotion) or disagrees (decline).
At that point, if someone disagrees with the review they have 2 days to move it to the Consensual Review section for further discussion.

You have effectively got two nominations for the same image running at the same time, as there are already a number of reviews in the CR section, it is proper to remove the entry from the main nomination section. --Tony Wills 10:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Buildings in Strasbourg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category%3ABuildings_in_Strasbourg&diff=9064059&oldid=9031137 Catégorie superflue : non, ce n'est pas vrai. Il y a la navigation par catégorie, et quiconque entre directement dans la Category:Strasbourg (par exemple en venant de en:Strasbourg) sans passer par la Category:Buildings in Bas-Rhin (à laquelle on n'accède d'ailleurs directement depuis nulle part dans Wikipedia) doit pouvoir accéder à cette sous-catégorie. Salutations cordiales, 81.64.196.160 14:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Tu n'as pas compris: la catégorie est aussi dans Strasbourg qui est lui même dans celle du Bas-Rhin.

Et il y a d'autres axes de recherche: Building in France (à travers Buildings by country).

Le doublon que tu avais mis donnait deux catégories depuis Strasbourg... Verdy p 14:21, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

J'ai essayé de réunifier les catégories pour la France afin que l'on puisse accéder à toutes les images pertinentes depuis une des catégories. Je l'ai fait pour l'ensemble des régions et des départements, et je l'ai fini pour les thèmes suivants: Géography, Maps, Cities and villages, Coats of arms, avec les liens depuis les autres catégories de classification, en repreant ce qui avait été fait sur La Réunion, le département et la région le mieux structuré. Le but est de ne pas laisser en plan dans des catégories non reliées des images qui devraient être groupées, simplement car la classification s'est faite sur un axe et pas un autre, d'où les catégoies croisées par thème ET par lieu, en choisissant la reubrique la plus fine qui peut être classée sur les deux axes.

Le travail de reclasification (plus fine) reste à affiner pour les images existantes, mais les catégories créées vont faciliter grandement la classification et permettre la recherche de toutes les images pertinentes à certains niveaux, quelque soit l'axe de recherche (par thème ou par lieu). Verdy p 14:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture of the Year

Hi Verdy, sorry you had troubles with the software. You should be able to follow the link in your email without trouble now. If it persists please let me know. thanks, pfctdayelise (说什么?) 07:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Squares in Paris

Hi, the cat Category:Squares in Paris was blanked at the start of January, with no reason given, yet cat has no content. You created it, and said on Category:Streets and squares of Paris that "This category is deprecated in the global namespace, see Category:Streets in Paris and Category:Squares in Paris", yet the "streets and squares" category is full of content... I have no idea how it should be organised. Can you perhaps have a look and sort it out? Thanks. -- Deadstar (msg) 11:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Normal. Recategorizing was still not performed there, but there a re many other links that already separate squares and streets everywhere. This was also needed for allowing cross-cateofy navigation to other areas than just Paris.

My comment was correct whan I posted it,and I'm sure that I had started filling the category, but may be someone remerged the contents just for Paris, ignoring the rest. I'll look at it.

[edit] {{header}}

Hi, thanks for working on this. I know it can use some improvement and my CSS skills are somewhat lacking so help is appreciated. However, the alignment of {{shortcut2}} was off. And I'm not sure why {{namespace}} was exchanged with {{NAMESPACE}}. That template was created for this purpose because things like "This commons talk in other languages" isn't ideal (note the lowercase 'c' due to {{lc:}}) and when it's on a gallery, nothing shows up ({{ns:0}}). I'm not sure what caused the alignment issue, but if you do, feel free to make you improvements again. Thanks. Rocket000 (talk) 08:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now I see why you didn't notice. It's look great when there's only one line of language links (like on the template page itself), but when they take up more than one and there's only on shortcut it looks bad. It may just need a vertical-align. Rocket000 (talk) 08:38, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm not sure what's different but it's looks right now... I have one more request. Other languages like to have a uselang= link to change the interface (for IPs), however I can't get to look right. See Template:Header/ca for example. I would like the link inside the box, but not interfere with the shortcut box. Ideally it should go directly above. Also, since a form of this header is used on all the main pages, do you think it would be wise to give the style a class in MediaWiki:Common.css? Rocket000 (talk) 03:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Verdy p (talk) 02:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, thanks again! They look so much better. Cheers, Rocket000 (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Visit Nice

Category discussion notification

Category:Visit Nice has been listed at Commons:Categories for discussion so that the community can discuss ways in which it should be changed. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this category, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for discussion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it. If the category is up for deletion because it has been superseded, consider the notion that although the category may be deleted, your hard work (which we all greatly appreciate) lives on in the new category.
In all cases, please do not take the category discussion personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

--Jmabel ! talk 23:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Indre

Bonjour,

Si j'ai créé proprement une page d'homonymie, ce n'est pas pour que tu t'amuses à tout recasser deux mois après, sans prendre la peine de commenter tes modifications.

Il n'y aucune raison que le département l'emporte sur la commune, que cela te plaise ou non.

Cordialement--Bapti ✉ 10:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Tu n'as pas vu les centaines de liens cassés que ton renommage a provoqué... Et au passage pour les changer il faudrait toucher un modèle utilisé sur plusieurs milliers de pages, et qui est protégé ! Verdy p (talk) 10:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Et bien je suis en train de les modifier. Merci d'arrêter tes modifs, oui, je te bloque.--Bapti ✉ 10:22, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Toi arrête! C'set ta modif qui était abusive, car ça change les conventions de nommage utilisées pour des MILLIERS de catégories et d'articles !!! En plus on ne opeut PLUS les changer, donc tu crées des liens morts Verdy p (talk) 10:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Donc pourquoi le département devrait l'emporter sur la commune ? Juste parce que c'est plus simple comme ça ? Il y a des modèles pour faire des homonymies sur Commons : on peut les utiliser. Pour les liens, je suis en train de m'en charger.--Bapti ✉ 10:26, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Je vois que tu as touché le modèle de navigation qui avait été fait pour respecter les conventions de nommage, et que j'avais fait. Je suis le principal contributeur de la classification française (les autres avaient essayé et se sont tous plantés avant). Mais ta modif ne marche pas encore: tu as oublié que toutes les autres catégories ne précisent pas "(department)" du doup toutes les catégories de l'Indre ne sont plus liées entre elles. Il faudrait faire comme pour le Lot (et pas seulement rajouter un suffixe, mais en faire un conditionnel: "(department)" testé d'abord s'il existe sinon rien par défaut ou si la catégorie n'existe pas). Mais je n'ai pas la main pour le faire (d'aileurs qui a eu l'idée de protéger le modèle qui ne bougeait que rarement et fonctionnait très bien?). Note: ta modif génère des milliers de pages dans la tasklist sur le serveur. Tu as demandé à qui pour la faire ? Verdy p (talk) 10:31, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarde par exemple ce que cela produit sur Category:Geography of Indre: il n'y a pas de suffixe (car pas d'ambiguité) sauf pour la catégorie mère du nom du département lui-même. La preuve est que le département n'apparaît plus dans la liste !

Si tu ne comprends pas comment fonctionne le modèle, demande-moi, c'est moi qui l'ai mis en place, en évitant justement de renommer des catégories très utilisées, et de mettre des suffixes partout quand ce n'était pas nécessaire, ceci afin de soulager le serveur, et les utilisateurs.

Avant de me menacer, tu aurais quand même du me demander. Je n'ai pas fait ça pour rien. En attendant ta modif ne marche toujours pas. Verdy p (talk) 10:35, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Quant à la petite commune de Loire-Atlantique (en ébauche même sur Wikipédia France) elle a très peu de chance d'être référencée, contrairement au département. Les conventions de nommages sont là opur éviter justement les erreurs de classifications, et ce modèle est là pour y aider, en évitant de se tromper sur les noms. Verdy p (talk) 10:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

ah bon, il faut désormais demandé une autorisation à sieur Verdy pour modifier le moindre modèle ?

Merci de te soucier de la tasklist, mais es serveurs ont visiblement déjà très bien digérés mes deux modifs...

Je vais effectivement corriger le problème que tu soulèves. Template:Departments of France a été protégé car il est abondamment utilisé (et donc qu'il faut éviter les édits inutiles types vandalismes).

Cordialement--Bapti ✉ 10:44, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

PS : Wikipédia France n'existe pas, contrairement à Wikipédia en français.

Ton argument ne tient pas: tu te passes d'autorisation pour modifier un modèle que j'ai créé, et avec lequel j'ai fait énormément de reclassements sur Commons, mais toi tu m'interdis de modifier de modèle en me forçant à demander, alors que ta modif ne marche toujours pas ! Verdy p (talk) 10:47, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Je ne t'interdis pas de modifier Template:Departments of France : ce n'est pas moi qui l'ait protégé. En revanche, je viens de le corriger pour éviter le problème que tu as évoqué plus haut. Sauf erreur, il n'y a désormais plus aucun lien mort.

À l'avenir, plutôt que de devoir bricoler pour éviter des pages d'homonymies, tu peux demander la modification d'un modèle protégé à l'aide de {{Editprotected}}.--Bapti ✉ 10:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

La demande avec editprotected, j'ai déjà essayé, c'est tellement long (trois mois après la demande y est encore...), et le plus souvent on n'obtient rien, un admin veut s'en charger et ça ne marche toujours pas.

OK tu as fait ce qu'il faut dans le modèle, j'ai regardé, c'est correct. Verdy p (talk) 10:53, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Bah si aucun admin compétent ne vient malgré {{Editprotected}}, tu peux mettre un message sur Commons:Bistro : un admin francophone interviendrait rapidement ;). Content que la modif te plaise :))) Bonne continuation--Bapti ✉ 11:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Tu auras sans doute noté que certains toponymes étaient en anglais d'autres en français, le modèle en tenait compte, pour éviter d'avoir à tout renommer tout de suite quand je l'ai créé. Les deux noms possibles apparaissent quand on active le modèle avec all=1, et ça sert pour la création des catégories, mais il ne faut pas se tromper. En mode normal, quand les catégories snot déjà là, on ôte le paramètre all=1 pour n'afficher qu'un seul des liens. Ca sert aussi pour détecter rapidement les problèmes de double nommage et ratablir la convention. J'aurais bien aimé unifier tous les noms de départements français en français, mais concernant la Corse, la Guyane française, ou la polynésie française, il y avait trop de wikis à retoucher qui utilisaient déjà le nom anglais sans penser que c'était nécesairement des départements. Le modèle est un compromis de tout ça... Mais la prochaine fois tu sauras qu'avant de songer à renommer une région ou un département sous prétexte d'homonymie (comme ici la petite commune de Loire-Atlantique quasiment pas référencée) il faut y réfléchir à deux fois. La page d'ambiguité n'est pas toujours une bonne idée, car il est simple de corriger la classification incorrecte d'un ou deux articles plutôt que les renommer tous et devoir passer par des noms à rallonge pour les cas les plus fréquents: il suffit en effet d'un message dans la catégorie pour mentionner l'existence d'homonymes rares possibles, et ce type de message apparait fréquemment sur Commons ou Wikipédia: un nom est favorisé car il est TRES fréquent, alors que les cas d'erreurs de classification sont très rares et vite corrigés. Verdy p (talk) 11:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Interface/fr

Salut,

J'avais créé ce modèle mais il est obsolète (j'aurais du le signaler c'est vrai) ; il faut utiliser {{header/fr}}, qui est d'ailleurs utilisé sur 90% des pages d'aide francophones.

Merci, le Korrigan →bla 22:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Il n'est ps si obsolète que ça, il a été utilisé depuis très longtemps et a des fonctions supplémentaires que le nouveau modèle header ne supporte pas (et en option le calendrier traduit aussi). verdy_p (talk) 22:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Conversion terminée... Le modèle Interface n'est plus utilisé du tout. Header/fr est à jour pour faire la même chose. verdy_p (talk) 23:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Money-EU

Hi did you do this edit? Multichill (talk) 09:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I did not see that you had placed a template for translating it (I did this because there are other places where such edits have been done, after looking on a discussion that wanted to place this code on this template, but the "autotranslate" template is quite new (I never noticed it before). Sorry. verdy_p (talk) 09:07, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

No problem, have a look at Commons:Template i18n (most used). Lot of templates already got converted. See {{autotranslate}} on how to convert a template. Multichill (talk) 21:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:ActUp-Paris-01-Zap-Iran.jpg

File deletion warning

File:ActUp-Paris-01-Zap-Iran.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
In all cases, please do not take the deletion request personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

Herr Kriss (talk) 22:20, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

So you have deleted an image uploaded by its author, a member of Act-Up Paris, Act-Up Paris being also the author of the flyer.

You have not resisted to Iranian criminal threats !

Where are our democracy principles, and where are the principles of WikiMedia if you don't respect the authors and delete their own snapshots, when you perfectly know who took this photo and why ? verdy_p (talk) 10:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] {{Ls}}

What exactly is the thing you tried to improve by these edits? --Slomox (talk) 09:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I have commented it appropriately ! the direction attribute gave invalid HTML because it used the language code as its default value; in addition, it was no longer working as expected. verdy_p (talk) 09:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

the direction attribute gave invalid HTML because it used the language code as its default value It didn't. Perhaps you've mistaken the template {{dir}} for a parameter called {{{dir}}}. {{dir}} always properly returns either 'rtl' or 'ltr'. --Slomox (talk) 10:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

No it was not doing that, or it was simply not working at all, Arabic was NOT shown RTL (the HTML generated confirmed this). Anyway it's true that such template could be used (I did not know that there was such template), but something was wrong in the code as it did not work. verdy_p (talk) 10:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It worked. See User:Slomox/test5. That's the old code of the template and two test cases, one rtl, one ltr. It works just fine and the HTML code is fine too.

Besides some cosmetic changes your edit just introduced a new parameter {{{dir}}} and changed the template {{dir}} into a hardcoded copy of {{dir}}. And that's the reason, why I think, you misinterpreted the template as a parameter. What's the purpose of the new parameter? Is there any need for displaying English text rtl or Arabic ltr? Like this:

English : This is English rtl.

? --Slomox (talk) 11:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The need is for displaying Arabic or Hebrew correctly. But there's another problem: some languages are multiscript, and are written for example in BOTH Arabic (RTL) and another LTR script. Without the parameter to change the default for these languages whose default script is Arabic, the description will be in the wrong direction is the LTR script is used instead. Example: Kashmiri whose default is the RTL script Arabic, but that is also as often written in Devanagari, and Gudjarati.

verdy_p (talk) 11:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: your test currently uses the modified template, that's why it works. It did not before, and this was visible in all image descriptions, category pages and galleries that used the Template:Mld or Template:Ls directly. verdy_p (talk) 11:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

There are similar examples for Kurdish and other languages, frequently depending on the country where the same language is used (then each country has its own "default" standard script, and so its own RTL or LTR preference). One could of course create sub-language codes (by suffixing the script code), but for now, many of these languages don't have the full support for selecting the script explicitly. A lot of updates would be needed to disambiguate things. For now the dir parameter can solve a few things, or can help insert another default message in another script than its default one. verdy_p (talk) 11:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: your test currently uses the modified template, that's why it works. It does not use the modified template. It always worked.

For the more well-supported multi-script languages like Kurdish there are subcodes like ku-arab and ku-latn. You should always use these subcodes when creating localisations or translations on Commons. There is no need to use any direction hacks when subcodes exist.

But you are right in that languages without subcodes yet like Kashmiri could benefit from an explicit 'dir' parameter. Although even then it would be better to create translations under appropiate codes like ks-arab and ks-deva. Users cannot specify these codes in their preferences, but we can redirect users with 'ks' specified in their preferences to the messages via the {{Fallback}} mechanism. --Slomox (talk) 12:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

For now, the dir parameter can help solve those tricky cases where there are no template support. You'll note that I have replaced the switch (to determine the default) by the call to the Template:dir, so this works as intended by your suggested sub-template. Anyway, the cause that it did not work must come from something else. I could not get any "dir" attribute in the generated HTML before the change, there must be some internal hack in Mediawiki that drops the dir attribute when a language code is specified in the same element. Now it just uses the CSS "direction:" style instead, to which the HTML dir attribute should be bound by default in all browsers (browsers that don't support CSS are very unlikely to support the dir attribute as well, the "direction:" CSS style is there since very long, as much as the "dir=" HTML attribute that was added and supported very late, because before it, HTML used the now deprecated BDO element). verdy_p (talk) 12:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

the dir parameter can help solve those tricky cases where there are no template support. Do you have any example where you want to use this? --Slomox (talk) 12:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC)