Category talk:Jamal-al-din al-Afghani
He was Pashtun
- Louay Safi, Intellectual Discourse 1995, Vol. 3, No. 1 
- Baudouin Eschapasse, Historia, Le vent de la révolte souffle au Caire, 
The term "Afghan" referred to Pashtun in the 1800s, so therefore, he is considered an ethnic Pashtun. Al-Afghani's grandfather, Sayyed Ali, had stayed in Hamedan of Iran for a while when he went to perform the pilgrimage of Hajj. When he returned back to Asadabad (situated in Kunar Province of Afghanistan), he got famous by the title of Hamadani. His son (Jamaladdin Afghani's father), Sayyed Safdar, then moved from Asadabad to Kabul with his family. Due to the political relations imposed on him by the government, he left Kabul to As'adabad in Hamedan Province in Iran. His trip from Kabul to Hamedan of Iran occurred in 1844 when Jamaluddin Afghani was 7 years old. So Al-Afghani was born in Afghanistan. See the below sources
Afghanistan Online, which won several awards including one from Britannica says he was born in Kunar Province of Afghanistan and is buried in Afghanistan.  Kunar Province is a totally Pashtun Province. The evidence is now overwelmingly convincing that he was an ethnic Pashtun or ethnic Afghan. He has the typical Pashtun face just like Hamid Karzai, he does not look Iranian at all.--Executioner 05:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Those are Afghan/Pashtun nationalist websites made by amatures. Obviously they are not as reliable as Britannica and Iranica. That is two of the top encyclopedias stating he was from Iran.
- Encyclopedia Britannica: says he was born in Iran and only changed his name LINK
- Encyclopedia Iranica: says the same thing (he was born and spent his life in Iran but changed his name to escape persecution), LINK
Britannica says: " born 1838, Asadbd, Persia died March 9, 1897, Istanbul
Muslim politician and journalist.
He is thought to have adopted the name Afghani to conceal the fact that he was of Persian Shi'ite origin. He lived in Afghanistan from 1866, and a year later he became counselor to the khan."
Iranica says:"Although for much of his life he claimed to be of Afghan origin, probably in order to present himself as a Sunni Muslim and to escape oppression by the Iranian government, overwhelming documentation now proves that he was born and spent his childhood in Iran. (One of the chief documentary sources that demonstrates this, as well as many other points about his life, is Afg@a@n^'s collection of papers left in Iran upon his expulsion in 1891, catalogued in È. AfÞa@r and A. Mahdav^, eds., Maèmu@¿a-ye asna@d va mada@rek-e ±a@p naÞoda dar ba@ra-ye Sayyed Ôama@l-al-d^n maÞhu@r be Afg@a@n^, Tehran, 1963. Other primary documentation is found in N. R. Keddie, Sayyid Jamal ad-Din “al-Afghani”: A Political Biography, Berkeley, 1972.)
Life. Ôama@l-al-d^n was born in the village of Asada@ba@d, near Hamada@n, into a family of local sayyeds."
All the scholarly sources say he was from Iran, only Afghan/Pashtun nationalists like Executioner will claim him to be Pashtun. Le Behnam 17:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Encyclopedia Britannica on Al-Afghani is based on a thought or a guess. Britannica says "He is thought to have adopted the name Afghani to conceal the fact that he was of Persian Shi'ite origin..."
- Encyclopedia Iranica's article on Al-Afghani is also based on probability, thoughts or guess. Iranica says: "Although for much of his life he claimed to be of Afghan origin, [probably] in order to present himself as a Sunni Muslim and to escape oppression by the Iranian government, overwhelming documentation now proves that he was born and spent his childhood in Iran..."
- Iranica acknowledges that Al-Afghani has been always claiming to be an Afghan (a Pashtun) but is calling him a liar. Al-Afghani lived in Iran for some times since age 7 but he was not born in that country, and neither was he Iranian.
- The five (5) sources I've provided are overwelming and they all say he was Afghan (Pashtun). Britannica and Iranica both accept that Al-Afghani himself claimed to be An Afghan (Pashtun), again, his own words hold more ground than someone elses thoughts or ideas. In other words, he said he is Afghan then he is Afghan.--Executioner 18:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
No they are not overwhelming. Afghanland and Afghan-Web are amature websites, not encyclopedias like Iranica and Britannica. Neither mention him as Pashtun and so there is no support for you labeling him as such other than your nationalistic claim and the claim of a few amature websites made by nationalistic Afghans looking to forge a history and identity for themselves. Stick to scholarly sources. Le Behnam 22:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Provide a source that says Afghanistan Online and Afghanland are amature. Anyway, Britannica and Iranica both says that Al-Afghani he himself claimed to be an Afghan. They are both agreeing of his Afghan heritage but they are saying that he may have lied. Your argument is very weak and you don't realize it.--Executioner 23:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
A third opinion
I have been asked to offer an opinion here. I will do so, bearing in mind I am not from the region.
I don't know Afghanland, or Iranica. I believe I have used Afghanistan Online. But Britannica is widely respected.
If I understand it correctly:
- Exectioner wants him to be listed in a category for Pashtuns, correct?
- Le Behman wants him removed from that category, correct?
- Le Behman has not asserted he be added to an Iranian category, correct?
Executioner, w:Alexander Graham Bell was born in Scotland, moved to Canada, grew up, invented the telephone in Canada. He moved to USA where he capitalized on his invention, and became rich. And he moved back to Canada to retire, and make more inventions, like the first hydrofoil boat.
All three nations claim him as one of their own. It is a generally friendly disagreement. Your disagreement, not so friendly? My prediction? If more outsiders are called in, they may vote for trusting Britannica, and putting him in the Iranian category.
If you both agree he lived in both countries for extensive periods of time is it possible to list him in both Iranian and Afghanistan categories? Or alternatively list him in a broader category, like Category:Central Asian people?
Cheers! Geo Swan 15:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
- User:Geo Swan, thanks for helping here but you're also confused or trying to confuse readers. My addition of category is not country related, it's ONLY related to an ethnic group (Pashtuns).
- Pashtuns, also called Pathans, ethnic Afghans, or synonymously Afghans, are an Eastern Iranian ethno-linguistic group with populations primarily in eastern and southern Afghanistan and in the North-West Frontier Province, Federally Administered Tribal Areas and Balochistan provinces of western Pakistan. The Pashtuns are typically characterized by their usage of the Pashto language and practice of Pashtunwali, which is a traditional code of conduct and honor. See en:Pashtun people
- If that's not convincing enough, according to The British Library - The world's knowledge: Afghans (1) An ethnic group: the Pushtun tribes inhabiting the area roughly lying between the Hindu Kush in the North and the Indus in the South;
- Every source (including Britannica) mentions that this man (Al-Afghani) claimed everywhere that he was Afghan. He even went by the last name Al-Afghani or Al-Afghan, which translates to The Afghan.
- Now we know that Afghan is another word for Pashtun, so there should be no problem with adding Pashtuns category to his category. We know that he was not an ethnic Hazara, Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmen, Baloch or Punjabi because those are not ethnic Afghans. In fact these ethnic groups are extremely anti the name Afghan and would never ever give themselves a last name such as Al-Afgani.
- Looking at his face and looking at Pashtuns will give further confirmation that his face fits that of a typical Pashtun.
- Regarding Alexander Bell, his ethnic background is Scottish, without making a difference where he was born or where he lived thereafter. Canadian and American are not ethnic names but nationality. The people of Canada and America are those from all across the world belonging to many different ethnic groups. I hope you now understand the differences between ethnic and nationality.
- Nobody has mentioned adding Iranian category before and since you brought this into this discussion I have no problems with it. Just to teach you about Iran's history a little that the modern nation Iran was only established in 1935, decades after Al-Afghani-s death. Before 1935, Iran was a big part of Persia. And the land has been and still is made up of many different ethnic groups. Persian or Iranian is similar as Canadian or American, it only refers to someone's nationality and not their ethnic background. According to the sources Al-Afghani was expelled or deported from Persia so that makes it very unlikely that he was from Persia because a citizen or native cannot be deported from the land of their birth, only foreigners can be deported. Besides all this I will not object to adding Iranian cat, I will wait until Iranians remove the cat themselves.--Executioner 08:34, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Afghan today is used as a demonym for Afghanistan, and even you insist this on other images. Especially "Afghani" is used by Iranians as a demonym for Afghanistani people. Regardless, the above is what is considered original research and speculations. We do not need that when I have already provided scholarly sources that he was from Iran and changed his name to al-Afghani later. He even spoke with an Iranian accent and did not know any Pashto. Two scholarly sources have more weight than your speculation. To give the image a category, I have added "Sunni Muslims" category since we know that for sure. Le Behnam 19:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- It does not matter what Afghan means today, Afghan at the time of al-Afghani meant Pashtun and I've provided several sources for that above. He gave himself "al-Afghani" last name and that does not have anything to do with Iranians. The last name "al-Afghani" is Arabic, meaning "the-Afghan". I've already explained that Afghan was used to refer to Pashtuns in 1800s. It does not matter what language al-Afghani spoke because Pashtuns are able to fluently speak Persian (Iranian), Urdu, Hindi, English, including their native Pashto language. Again, I am ONLY adding ethnic category, not country related. It does not matter where he was born, there is enough evidence to indicate that he was ethnic Pashtun. We had a discussion on the administrator noticeboard that since I uploaded this image and added Pashtun category but no agreement can be made here on the talk page then you are to leave the category until a 3rd party steps in. In others words, you are not allowed to remove Pashtuns category from this file. Although this was just a proposal, you still must learn to follow the rules.--Executioner 22:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks, I am aware that there are multiple ethnic groups in Iran.
- You are correct that Scottish is both AG Bell's ethnic group, as well as one of his possible nationalities. w:Jamal a-Din Asadabadi says the strongest evidence is that he was born in Persia. So, ethnically, wouldn't that make him Persian? Or some kind of hyphenated Persian, if he was from a minority ethnic group in Persia.
- I am going to have to agree that some of your argument is just speculation. Judging someone's nationality by looking at their face? That is not reliable.
- You write that:
- ...ethnic Hazara, Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmen, Baloch or Punjabi because those are not ethnic Afghans. In fact these ethnic groups are extremely anti the name Afghan and would never ever give themselves a last name such as Al-Afgani.
- So, how do you know this?
- You are correct that it is not common for citizens of modern democratic nations to be forced into exile. It is not unknown, however, even today. One recent example? w:Yasser Hamdi.
- Cheers! Geo Swan 00:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- Who is w:Jamal a-Din Asadabadi?
- I keep telling you not to confuse readers between ethnic and nationality but you are still doing it.
- My argument is based on what experts have to say about Afghani. Most sources and experts say J. Afghani was born in Afghanistan, and that he was of an Afghan origin.
- Afghani, the chief agent in the inception of the modern Islamic movement in Egypt, was born in 1839 at Asadabad, in Afghanistan. He studied Islamic sciences in different parts of Afghanistan, Persia, and Iraq.
- Syed Jamaluddin was born in 1838 at Asadabad (Afghanistan). His father Syed Safdar, a descendent of Syed Ali Al-Tirmizi, later migrated and settled in Kabul.
- He was born in Kabul, Afghanistan.
- Afghani was born in 1838 in Asadabad, Kunar (refering to Afghanistan). He died in 1897. In late 1944, his remains were taken to Afghanistan and laid to rest in Kabul near Ali ‘Abad, a mausoleum was erected for him.
- See photo of his mausoleum in Kabul, Afghanistan.
- I can get many more sources if you insist. It would not affect his ethnic background "IF" he was born in Persia, I've already explained to you that Persian is NOT ethnicity. Example: Persian Emperor w:Nader Shah was born in Persia but ethnically he was w:Turkmen.
- I am an expert on Afghanistan's history and people, so that's how I know that ethnic Hazaras, Tajiks and others are extremely anti-the word Afghan and would never give themselves al-Afghani last name in 1800s. See Rostam: "...We have to behead and cut the tongue of those Tajiks who say they are afghan!" and Modern history of Hazaras since the beginnings of Afghanistan Only ethnic Pashtuns were given last names with the word "Afghan" during those times. Since I'm an expert on the people of Afghanistan, I'm able to judge someone's ethnic background by looking at their face. However, that is just a small part of my argument in the case of al-Afghani.
- I didn't mention "forced into exhile". I said expelled or deported, which is a legal process performed by the government.
- Afghan President w:Hamid Karzai attended classes at Sayed Jamaluddin Afghani School, in Kabul, Afghanistan.  Is there anything named after al-Afghani in Iran?--Executioner 20:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
- You say you are an expert in Afghan's ethnic groups? Maybe you are. But if you aren't a published expert, then your expertise remains just "original research". Geo Swan 21:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's your personal opinion about me, I'm sure others may disagree with you. I am publishing my work here as I type and the world can read it. What's the difference between me typing things here or somewhere else? You rely on published work of others in the same fashion. Besides, this is not Wikipedia to use the term "original research". Just like expert publishers, I can always provide citations here or links to where I get my information from. Expert publishers also provide to us their sources usually at the bottom in the footnotes. I guess you've learned something new this time.--Executioner 18:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- "Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan s/o (son of) Muhi-ud-Din bin AhmedAI-EssaAI-Khoashki Al-Jamandi Al-Afghani, was born in the year 1345 (1927) Al-Hijri, in Qasur, a city of the Punjab Province, in Pakistan. His grandfathers emigrated from Afghanistan escaping from the wars and ribal strifes. Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan belongs to the famous Afghanese tribe AlKhoashki Al-Jamandi. The residence place of his tribe was the valley of Arghastan south east of the city of Kandhar (Afghanistan).", 
- These are ethnic Pashtuns but of a distance Arab descend. They consider themselves as ethnic Afghans but today the term "ethnic Afghan" is not widely heard of so instead only Pashtun is used. The reason for this is due to ethnic Afghans or ethnic Pashtuns being divided into 2 countries, Afghanistan and Pakistan. All the citizens of Afghanistan are called Afghans and all the citizens of Pakistan are called Pakistanis, so the 28 to 40 million Pashtuns of Pakistan cannot be called Afghans.--Executioner 18:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not trying to get into an argument here. I believe you know what I mean by published -- published somewhere where you have to answer to an editor.
- I encourage you to not consider it some kind of insult that I don't agree to consider you an expert, solely because you tell me you are an expert.
- Cheers! Geo Swan 23:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you were not trying to get into an argument here than you would've "Beeeen" stopped leaving messages here. This is somewhere, am I not answering to you who is an editor?
- I never take things like this as insult, I could care less what you think about me. I have provided enough evidence to help explain this person's ethnic background. You've been opposing me since you first saw me and I don't expect you to agree with me. Since you cannot help the situation here I suggest you go away and let someone who may be expert on the subject to come here and help solve this problem. You seem to do is talk about me instead of trying to determine al-Afghan's ethnic background.--Executioner 14:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not an expert. And I am also not an editor, in the meaning I used above. I don't know if you really understood me -- and you are just kidding -- or if you really don't know how a professional editor establishes someone expertise.
- Newspapers, and academic journals, scientific and technical journals -- when I waid authors have to answer to them, I mean that the editor reads the document first, and gets to say:
- "You make points that don't follow; or you make points that aren't supported by your evidence; or you make points that require evidence to back them up, and you don't have any. My newspaper/journal won't publish your document, without rewrites that satisfy me on these points. Period. Full-stop."
- Book publishers employ editors too. And, unless you are a really famous big-selling author, those editors are your boss.
- This editor establishes the writer's credibility, because someone else, familiar with their field, has shown their trust in the writer's knowledge and judgment. The most prestigious journals have committees of academics whose expertise is already established to read new articles. That is what "peer-reviewed" means. This is why academic crave publications. The more published work an author has, the more respect it shows he or she has among their colleagues.
- That is not the nature of our relationship. Answering my question does not establish the credibility of your opinions.
- I am not trying to talk down to you. If you already knew this, you are going to have to forgive me, because, you will have to admit you presented as if you didn't know this.
- Perhaps you should seek yet more opinions if you are not happy with mine.
- For what it is worth I think I have been civil with you at all times. If you don't think I have been, be specific. I'll take a good look at it. If I agree I'll apologize. You might also consider retracting your accusation I was a sockpuppet. Geo Swan 01:31, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not in the mood to write here about who I am and how much I know about this and that, etc. I'm making a very good point about al-Afghani being ethnic W:Afghan. We come to common terms that ethnic Afghans are recognized today as ethnic W:Pashtuns. The sources clearly mention that HE, HIMSELF, CLAIMED TO EVERYONE IN THE WORLD IN THE 1800s THAT HE WAS AN AFGHAN OF SUNNI SECT OF ISLAM. So it should be safe to add Category:Pashtuns to his files. We don't need any more evidence and we don't need to go further with this unessary debate. Le-Behnam (a Shiite ethnic Tajik) is arguing that he does not believe al-Afghani when he said he was Afghan. Le Behnam wants al-Afghani to be Iranian or Persian, something al-Afghani never claimed of being. The rest of your argument is irrelevant to the topic here so I will not comment on any of that.--Executioner 23:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
I had copied this long discussion from the image talk page to here on this date and time....so enjoy!--Executioner 20:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)