Category talk:Kemenches

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Which instruments are to be categorized here? The are are many instruments, from different families, which bear is some langage the name Kemenche or a variant, and they have categories of their own. So what shall we do with this category?--Phso2 (talk) 09:53, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

The issue is quite simple: Previously, several users including you were confusing Kamancheh (a.k.a. "spike fiddle") with Kemenche (this category), and most images of "spike fiddle" were incorrectly categorized on this category. I found these defects on several week ago, and already corrected these. And as a result, temporaly this category is almost empty.
However, this category is still the main category correspond to Wikipedia article en:Kemenche (or other language version of it). All the categories for instruments generally called "Kemenche" in English, or generally categorized to Kemenche family instruments (i.e. subcategories under Category:Kemence/lyra), should be added on this category. --Clusternote (talk) 18:09, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I didn't confused the two : you decided to put the spiked fiddles, that were categorized here, under another variant of the name kemenche/kamancha/kemancheh etc, thus emptying this cat. Kemenche is not a family instrument in the proper sense, it's an ambiguous name in some langages for different intruments wich have different body form (bowl or flat, pear-shapes or oblong etc), different neck length, different way of stopping the strings (on the side or on the touch), different name in other langages and often belong to different musical tradition, so you can't put all the instruments with this name under a general cat "Kemenche", since apart from the name the only thing they all have in common is to be bowed. The article en:Kemenche concerns 2 different instruments and should be split, by the way.--Phso2 (talk) 11:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
The evidence once you were confusing these two names is here.
Revision as of 08:11, 10 April 2012 (edit) (undo) Phso2 (talk | contribs) (Undo revision 69574611 by Clusternote (talk) Category:Kemenches is about the spiked fiddle)
Also, your category naming method on which two names are tied by "/" character (i.e. Category:Kemence/lyra and Category:Klasik kemençe/Polítiki lýra) seems not follow the standard naming conventions on the Wikimedia Commons.
--Clusternote (talk) 14:36, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
P.S. Also, you seems to be misunderstanding about who had incorrectly decided to categorize "spike fiddles" to this category. As seen on each history of images previously mis-categorized on Category:Kemenches (now moved to Category:Kamancheh by my fixes), these mis-categorization is not by me, but by other users including you: a sample of evidence is here)
Revision as of 08:46, 10 November 2011 (edit) (undo) Phso2 (talk | contribs) m (removed Category:Kemence/lyra; added Category:Kemenches using HotCat)
On above sample, although File:Kemancha-pers.jpg is incorrectly named "Kemancha", the image is a kind of "spike fidle" (Kamancheh), and it should not be categorized to Kemenche(s) as you did. --Clusternote (talk) 15:38, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
You assume there is only one correct form for the name of the spiked fiddle now categorized under Kamancheh, but this is not true : these names are for the most part translitterations from non-latin scripts, so differents forms are possible, and you can find the "Kamancheh" (i.e. the spiked fiddle) under the name "Kemenche" (Academic book, Musician website, etc) and other variants (Grove dictionary has it under Kamanche with no "h" for ex). Thus, there was no confusing in the former categorization, only a different transcription. I don't pretend that Kemenche is better than other forms, if you prefer the form Kamancheh to the form Kemenche, I have no opposition as long are the category is precisely defined (which is the case for Kamancheh, but not for Kemenches), but there is no point to say « File:Kemancha-pers.jpg is incorrectly named "Kemancha" and should not be categorized to Kemenche». Now you have created another category for another variant of the name of the same instrument (Category:Kemancha), do you really see this as an improvement?--Phso2 (talk) 12:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Are you kidding ? The user who added "translation tables" on each category page under Category:Bowed lyre family instruments (and also under Category:Bowed string instruments), is me. With the visualization of name variations, I also try to clearly distinguish the "merely notational differences" and the "historical or cultural, possibly essential differences between the similar instruments with different names".
  For example, historically, Rebab-style Kemençe was known in Persia in 13th century (Meragi, c.1400)[1], and on today, similar instruments are known as Kamança in Azerbaijan, Kabak Kemane in Turk, Joza in Iraq, Гиджак (Gidzhak) in Central Asia, etc. These instruments (including Rebab) probably share common origin, however, historically these have been distinguished each other, so we need individual categories for each instrument. (Note: the name "Rebab" seems slightly special; It was historically used as generic name for several range of string instruments including "bowed-" and "plucked-", so we need more precise categorizations seen on Polish Wikipedia.)
  Similarly, "Kemancha" in Armenia, and several images of two-string instruments named Kamangeh or Kamanjeh, have clearly longer spike than Kamança in Azerbaijan, thus, we also need individual categories for future improvement on better categorization (I always try to improve them). If you had a reliable source that show the absolute equivalences between Kamança, Kemancha, and Kamangeh/Kamanjeh (last one is two string instrument!), please show it. I'm glad for any efforts to improve these categorization. --Clusternote (talk) 07:19, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Look at Armenian Kemancha : Armenian musical shop, Armenian musician, Armenian orchestra : it's the same instrument as the Azeri one. The instrument left on one stamp has a longer spike, like some ancient representations of a spiked fiddle played on the ground (like this one or here) : just because there is a instrument with a longer spike on an armenian stamp, you create a category for "armenian kemancha", in which you categorize a persian painting from the 16th c just because the uploader called it Kemancha on Commons.
The definition or "Kamânche" in the The New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instrument tells (vol 2 p 353-4): "Spike fiddle of Iran and the Caucasus (Armenian K'amancha, Azeri and Georgian Kemanche, also know in Turkey and Egypt as Rabâb, in Irak as Joze, in Northern Afghanistan and parts of Asia as Ghichak)" then follows the description of the usual spike fiddle with a round body, long neck, played on the knee, with 3 or 4 strings. Other academic reference : in Jean During, "Musiques d'Asie centrale" : "Ghijak : persian and azeri Kamânche, spiked fiddle etc.
The instrument here and here, also here is an archaic instrument described in the source("Histoire générale de la musique"[2] p 135-136) from the first pic as « Kemangeh a'gouz », and can have a distinct category since it has clear differences.
Now, what are your references on the fact that Armenian, Azeri, Persian Kamanche (or variant name), Ghijak (or variant) from central asia etc are dirrefent instrument which should belong to different categories?--Phso2 (talk) 16:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

(⇐ reset indent) this was not a confusion. You had put Category:Kemence/lyra (not spike fiddles) under Category:Kemenches, which was about spiked fiddles before your modification of the category's definition. Using "/" character allows not to choose between langages when both names exist ; it is not a "good" solution, but it is more consistent than labelling everything with vague, ambiguous and equivocal terms. "Bowed lyra" is a very vague term : what precise definition do you have for a "lyre" for exemple? (don't refer me to en:Lyre, this article is a mess about instruments bearing more or less the name "lyre" and having strings)--Phso2 (talk) 15:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

(⇐ reset indent)

A sample of "lyre" (Kithara)
A sample of "bowed lyre" (Byzantine Lyra)

Please stop confusing discussion. The subject of this talk page is not about "lyre" (or "lyra"; a kind of plucked string instrument without fingerboard), but the categorization of subclass of "bowed lyre" (or "bowed lyra") which includes:

--Clusternote (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

If you define lyre" or "lyra as "a kind of plucked string instrument without fingerboard", it make it obvious that this name is not the name of a instrument family, but a name used to label different instrument which only share the fact that they have strings and that they bear this name is some langages. So either the category definition is nothing more than a langage definition (Cat Lyre/Lyra= instruments called Lyre/lyra in some langages, and it should not be categorized under "Plucked string instruments" as it is now), either it is an organological definition and it should categorize only "kinds of plucked string instrument without fingerboard". Now we have a category of bowed instruments (what you call "bowed lyres") categorized under a family of plucked instruments (what you call "Lyre family instruments").--Phso2 (talk) 12:19, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Your discussion seems out of scope on this talk page.
Basically, Wikimedia Commons is not the place to discuss about the classification of musical instrument, but the place to share multimedia files in rational way between various projects. The Category:Lyre family instruments merely reflects en:Category:Lyres, the Category:Bowed lyre family instruments merely reflects en:Category:Bowed lyres, and the Category:Kemenches reflects English article en:Kemenche and correspondance on the other language projects. And, if additional suffixes "family instruments" on Wikimedia category names (i.e. Category:Lyre family instruments, etc) were inappropriate with rational reason, these should be renamed (i.e. Category:Lyres, etc). Also, if you have any questions on the categorization of en:Category:Lyres, en:Category:Bowed lyres, etc, I suggest you to discuss with the experts on English Wikipedia, etc.
On the other hand, the main issue on this thread is inappropriate naming of your category Category:Kemence/lyra which doesn't follow the widely accepted naming convention on Wikimedia Commons. It should be merged to this category.
Thats' all! --Clusternote (talk) 03:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Already mentioned above, probably you have selected Category:Kemence/lyra as the name of "category for group of musical instrument generally called Kemençe (in Turkey), Kemenche (in English), etc", to avoid collision with already existing category of a village of Hungary, Category:Kemence.

However, your naming convention seems not matched with widely accepted naming conventions on Wikimedia Commons. Normally in that case, the use of parenthesis is more suitable, as:

Also, if we could select English notation Kemenche for this instrument, it may be simply named

Note: On this particular case, plural form "Kemanches" seems tend to increase the ambiguity between variety of notations in various languages, so singular form may be more suitable in here, although it ignore plural form rule on Wikimedia Comomns. --Clusternote (talk) 00:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)