Category talk:Kurdistan

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Talk page[edit]

There are apparently some issues with this category. This is what a talk page is for. This is evidently a controversial topic...everyone should keep a level head and an open mind and we'll be able to come to some agreement as to what belongs in this category, and what doesn't. Cary "Bastiqe" Bass demandez 14:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel it is not aproporate to treat Kurdistan like a regular uncontraversial region. Kurdistan is a confusing term with multiple meanings both political and cultural depending on the source. I so far assumed this was about the lesser controversial cultural region. Lets establish what we want from it
Politically:
  • Kurdistan exists but is restricted to 3 Iraqi provinces at northern Iraq known officially as Kurdistan and semi-officially as Iraqi Kurdistan (due to confusion over the geo-cultural area). We can base it on this and treat it like an Iraqi state as it is recognized as one. Kurdistan started existing as of 2004 I believe with the ratification of the new Iraqi constitution.
  • Kordestan is an Iranian province that has nothing to do with Kurdistan. This entity should be beyond the scope of this category and be treated as yet another Iranian province.
  • Anywhere else of Iraq Kurdistan, Kurdistan does not exist as a political entity defacto or not.
Culturally:
  • Kurdistan is a geo-cultural area where "Kurds traditionally lived". Since Kurds are/were nomadic people, the boundaries of this area is not defined, most sources claim it is in the middle east somewhere. There is no agreement on the actual borders.
--Cat out 14:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If we have it flagged as a disputed territory, why not include all the countries that might possibly have part of a hypothetical Kurd homeland? I would think that Turkey, Syria and Iran all have at least some content there? I don't think I want to get too deep into this conflict but that's my thinking. I just walked the revision history and I am completely at a loss as to why there is so much revision, proposal for deletion, etc. I think some rational discussion here is needed, and perhaps some mediation, by someone or some set of someones that doesn't have anything emotionally invested in the tensions of the region. ++Lar: t/c 15:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I nominate you for the job. --Cat out 16:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I decline the nomination. :)... two reasons. 1) I'm biased. 2) I am already doing a mediations of sorts and doing badly at it. Adding another one doesn't seem a good idea. ++Lar: t/c 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Right now this cat is only in the cat "Government of Iraq". I would assume that it would go without saying that most people looking for media related to Kurdistan would not navigate to "Government of Iraq" looking for it. I suggest using the same cat scheme as en:, which includes Kurdistan in a few Geography cats and in the Disputed Territory cat. There's no reason to politicise this -- just do the thing that makes the media easy, or intuitive, to find. We're not the UN, nothing we do here will make a difference in these people's political status, we're just a media repository. Jkelly 17:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I would oppose the en scheme as it is quite bad out there. The category is used in a political manner there.
Kurdistan is a vague term. It can have many meanings. When you have a highly controversial term with multiple meanings, it will always be political and there is no escaping it. However if we decide on a solid inclusion criteria, this will be much easier to deal with on the long run. That way we can avoid the polirics.
If the intention is to make media finding easier and if the intention is to make media related to Kurdish people in general, Kurdish people cat is fine for that and it would be neutral too. After all anything that appears in this cat is relevant to Kurdish people one way or another.
We are not the UN thats quite right, we are neither advocates of Kurdish independence movement, nor judges on what falls inside of Kurdistan and what doesn't. I think it is best to limit that kind of discussion on what we are and what we aren't.
--Cat out 17:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
most people looking for media related to Kurdistan would not navigate to "Government of Iraq" looking for it. Same thing is true for any and every US state. Officially it is a state and not a geographic region like Asia. --Cat out 17:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) We now have Category:Maps of Kurdish-inhabited regions and Category:Maps of Iraqi Kurdistan. I moved the images in the "Maps of Kurdistan" category to those 2 categories. The news media today uses "Kurdistan" to refer to w:Iraqi Kurdistan. See this Sept. 2, 2007 Chicago Tribune article:

"Kurdistan is working," said Ashti Hawrami, the Kurdistan Regional Government's minister of oil and gas. "If we sit down and do nothing we are not doing our job. We are doing our job for the country."

So I think this category breakdown is clearer for the average reader of wikipedia and the news. And it avoids the confusion surrounding the old and new meanings of Kurdistan. See the geography section of w:Kurdistan. I believe wikipedia is supposed to lean toward the common names today.--Timeshifter 17:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

?[edit]

It's clear that Category: Kurdistan includes all other categories: read the links you gave (« Kurdistan, a geo-cultural region consisting of parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria »)
You raise a very general issue affecting almost all regions, and should be discussed in a broader context... For example, what do you think of Category:Occitania or Category:Cappadocia (and other).
Diyarbakır, Hakkâri, Van,..., Qamishli, Dohuk and Kordistan are well in the Kurdistan region... there is a doubt? For the rest, there are pages of discussion...
Also, I find quite handy this category, for those who interrested at this geo-cultural region.
And, read en:Wikipedia:No original research
Yeah. For example, this map is "original research". Takabeg (talk) 13:02, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
"Yeah" :) This page isn't intended that question? And, this page isn't the talk page of the article on en:Kurdistan and the talk page of the map. I was talking about categories...--Ghybu (talk) 14:42, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Sorry for my english--Ghybu (talk) 12:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Please read Commons:Categories. Unfortunately, most of categories related with Category:Kurdistan are not suitable to "Purpose of categories in Wikimedia Commons" because it's difficult for us (including me) to make category structures. Takabeg (talk) 11:01, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

What will you do with animals/plants which are named Rhagodixa kurdistanica, Karschia kurdistanica, Vulpes vulpes kurdistanica, Lycaena Kurdistanica, Vipera raddei kurdistanica, Scilla kurdistanica, Alectoris graeca kurdistanica etc? Will you use thier names as Turkey uses without word of Kurdistan? This is a free project and people would like to share thier cultures. if you worry much for the future of Wikimedia. i think, its better, if you go to donate ;) Gomada (talk) 21:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

There are scientific names including the term "kurdistanica". For example. Vulpes vulpes Kurdistanica, Vipera raddei kurdistanica etc. en:Vipera raddei kurdistanica is redirected to Vipera raddei. According to the article in English Wikipedia, "it found in Turkey, Iran, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and possibly also Iraq" and en:Category:Reptiles of Asia is applied. If need, Category:Reptiles of Turkey, Category:Reptiles of Iran, Category:Reptiles of Armenia, Category:Reptiles of Azerbaijan can be added. The scientific names including the name of "kurdistan" is not enough reason to create Category:Animals of Kurdistan. In the same way, the presence of en:Agdistis turkestanica, en:Coleophora turkestanica, en:Tulipa turkestanica etc. is not enough reason to create Category:Animals of Turkistan (en:Turkistan), the presence of en:Cecina manchurica, Mustela siberica manchurica etc. is not enough reason to create Category:Animals of Manchuria (en:Manchuria). Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

A typical turk, im bored of people as you. I will not waste my time with you. You cant sleep and you see nightmares of Kurdistan. Therefore, you wanna delete Kurdish names and Kurdistan in everywhere? I will not redirect Kurdistan to Turkey , Iran, Syria or Iraq. I will use Kurdistan. Kurdistan can be banned in your head. But, you cant force us to be as you! Btw, I have warned you, im the author of the photos and dont change my own descriptions once again!--Gomada (talk) 10:21, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Who is typical Turk ? Have you ever read No Personal Attacks ? I didn't delete Kurdish name. I only improved definitions in according with English Wikipedia. For example, I've changed ku:Kereboran to en:Dargeçit for readers of English Wikipedia. The authors don't have any rights to refuse to correct errors. (For example, I've corrected your error on Metin Kahraman.) As to Kurdistan, I'm not a person who screams "there is no region called Kurdistan". I only oppose all kind of ethnocentric and nationalistic approaches. Takabeg (talk) 12:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Why do you change description like that? Dont you see? if people are curious about Kerboran, they can just click on and they will see Dargeçit. Its a kind of REDIRECT. i think, you are not againist to redirects. Beacuse, You've already agreed to redirect en:Vipera raddei kurdistanica to Vipera raddei. So, Why is it matter when it a kurdish name? You wrote me on my page and i told you, if you really care Wikimedia. First, go to correct Turkish categories. Kasimiye Medresesi, Kirklar Kilisesi, Mardin Ulu Camii, Mor Yuhanun Kilisesi and dozens.. Why are those categories are in turkish? Is it universal? Btw, You corrected my error? Were you in the concert of the kurdish singer? Do you know how he describe himself? Will you chose his nationality instead of him? I think, you should read en:Zaza people and learn more about Kurdish people. --Gomada (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Firstly, I didn't agree to redirect Vipera raddei to en:Vipera raddei kurdistanica. I cannot understand why you think so. I only mentioned to the fact en:Vipera raddei kurdistanica is redirected to Vipera raddei in English Wikipedia. And I've said explained about en:Dargeçit. So I've changed into term in English Wikipedia. Category:Kerboran also have to be changed to Category:Dargeçit. I've never seen Kasimiye Medresesi etc. en:Zaza people is exist. We have to know the fact that the article en:Zaza pelple is locked and have to read Talk page of the article. I known the fact that some Zazas think themselves as a part of Kurdish people, somes don't think themselves as a part of Kurdish people. PKK support first theory. So the first target of PKK's terror attack was the chieftain of a Zaza tribe Mehmet Celal Bucak. As you know, the situation of ethnic identities is very complicated in Turkey. For examle, en:Hüseyin Vâsıf Çınar, who is one of the prominent Turkish nationalist, en:Kâmran İnan were born to Kurdish family, but they denies their Kurdishness. But nobody can deny their Kurdish descendancy. en:Ziya Gökalp was born to a Zaza family, but he is one of the Turkish nationalist. Nobody can claim that Ziya is not a Zaza. en:Hamdullah Süphi Tanrıöver was born to a Circassian family and he said that I'm not a Turk. I'm a Circassian. in his early years. But later he became one of the most prominent figures of the Turkish nationalist movement. Even in his case, nobody can claim that Hamdullah Süphi is not a Circassian descent. Nilüfer Akbal, Metin Kahraman etc. were born to Zaza family, he doesn't deny this fact and at the same time he thinks that Zaza people is a part of Kurdish p eople. This thinking (maybe belief) is different from person to person. In any case, nobody can deny their Zazaness. Nobody cannot deny his/her Zazaness whether he/she think Zazas as a part of Kurdish people or not. Do you understand ? Now let's return to our subject (categories including the term Kurdistan). I don't think Category:Kurdistan must be deleted. But I think that many numbers of categories are out of harmony with Commons:Categories. Because, although the territory (borderline) of en:Iraqi Kurdistan is much more clear, but the territories of borderlines of Kurdistan (especially Turkish Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan) are too ambiguous. This ambiguity causes chaos and conflicts. Takabeg (talk) 16:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
i knew that your purpose is a political fight. Do you wanna know something? You think that, you know kurdish people but you dont really know. PKK, PKK, PKK (: PKK started to fight in 1984. Where were the Zazas before 1984? But for the Turks, PKK is the only reason and answer of everything (: I have said, i dont wanna waste my time but somebody should tell you about Kurdish people and i hope, you will stop to act as you know us. First of all, PKK didnt attack Bucak's tribe because of the national identity and Mehmet Celal Bucak wasnt a leader of Zazas. He was supporting turkish regime and the most important he was a symbol of feudalism. The first purpose of PKK, was changing feudalism in Kurdish community. Because if People cant be free in their own family, they cant support a movement of freedom. Its 30 years, Kurds try to break feudalism in their life. But, turkish regime knows, if Kurds can think as free people, they will not accept rules of Turkish republic. Therefore, Feudalism is always supported by Turkish politicians. Look at parliements or mayors of AKP, DYP, MHP etc (all turkish parties) For example this Bucak tribe, just because of en:Sedat Bucak, in every election DYP got 20.000 votes or more. Why? Because, he is a feudal chieftain, his tribe just listens to him, they dont judge or they dont think. Its not mistake of members of the tribe. They are poor people, their chieftain and turkish government didnt let them to illuminate themselves. No school, no education, they just decieved them by religious lies. But, i know you will say PKK is againist education and i can answer now, thats bullshit (: Thats just a lie of turkish regime ;) where did turkish government build schools and PKK attack? In my village (it was burnt by turkish soldiers) there was a building which was so called school but there was no students or teacher. Because turkish soldiers were using that as station house. Ok, i think no need to discuss turkish claims anymore. Because we lived and saw, we dont need lies about us. Lets make it clear about Zazas. Look at the history of Zaza people, Seyid Riza, Sheikh Said. They faught for freedom of Kurdish people. Btw, word of zaza is new. Zaza people are known as Kirmanc or Kird and They call Kurds as Kirdasî. Kirdasî means, people who look alike Kurds (: So, Zazas identify themselves as real Kurds and thinks Kurmanj people look like them (: You have written Zazana. Thats funny, in the wikipedia two people (names are not necessary) who dont know anything about history have created such bullshit (: Zazana isnt a country. In Behistun inscriptions, its a city, its connected to semitic word of Gozana and in the medieval documents; Its called as Zuzan al Akrad = Highlands of the Kurds (: But, some uneducated people try to create a new history by keyboard (: Btw, Zozan means plateau in kurdish. Scholars such as Minorsky and Mackenzie believes that, Zazas migrated on 12th century AD from Dailam and there is still Dimili tribe of Zaza Kurds. Btw, Dailam is an old land of Kurdish inhabitants area. There are many famous kurds as Zahed Gilani, Abdul-Qadir Gilani, Safi-ad-din Ardabili who come from Dailam. Do you know that, the first book (written in 1899) in Zazaki is named Mewluda Kirdî = Kurdish Mawlid? The first man (in Ottoman empire) who published kurdish books, Kürdizade Ahmed Ramiz was a Zaza. You know Kürdizade means Son of Kurd. Why wasnt he called as son of Zaza? (: Because, there was no such word at the time of Ottoman empire and there wasnt a regime who tried to divide Kurds. Half of population in Amed is zaza, but the party which Turks call as kurdish nationalist gets 60 % votes of the city. Most of Headsmen of the party are Zazas. Read your famous traveller Evliya Çelebi, you will learn more about Kurds. The first publisher of arabic Kurdish alphabet, Xelîl Xeyalî is a zaza (: is it interesting? if there was another nation, why were they known as Kurds and they struggled for Kurdish identity? In short, You cant change culture of our people by nationalistic purposes.--Gomada (talk) 12:11, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
You have never seen turkish categories? (: ok, i show you again Kasimiye Medresesi, Kirklar Kilisesi, Mardin Ulu Camii, Mor Yuhanun Kilisesi, Anadolu Hisarı‎, Rumeli Hisarı‎, Sakip Sabancı Müzesi‎, Yalı, Galata Mevlevihanesi‎... Do you want me to show you more? I know your purpose. Therefore if you are honest about helping Wikimedia, first go to solve problems of turkish categories ;) Gomada (talk) 12:23, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Why? If someone try to improving categories about Kurdistan, s/he isn't honest? It is nonsense. Everybody can develop everything on Wikimedia projects.--Reality006 (talk) 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Firstly, we aren't currently talking about Kasimiye Medresesi and etc. They should be discussed on its own page. Secondly, you can't attack to people about etnicity, religous and other things. It is completely forbidden and it causes serious criminals. As for the subject, I support Takabeg's proposal. It prevents mental confusion and categorization problems and I believe that Takabeg's propasal doesn't intend any bad idea. I apologize for my English.--Reality006 (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
You talk about to not attack people. Good (: What are you telling about me on your page? Do you wanna translate for people who cant speak Turkish? (: --Gomada (talk) 18:42, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that he/she attacked you. When I researched your edits of all projects, I also came to understand that your main arguments (1. emphasizing the term "Kurdistan", 2. try to erase the presence of Zaza people, and make them Kurd) are very similar to Kurdish nationalistic approaches and tactics of PKK. I believe that Wiki projects mustn't serve for any propaganda. Takabeg (talk) 02:24, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
He has said, Im fascist and You dont think that he attecked me? (: Whatever, I think, you didnt really read my long comment above. I dont need to improve you Kurdishness of Zaza people anymore. Just go to read Zaza people. There are enough references for you there. If you still dont wanna believe, check website of Vate group and They are zaza authors, linguists, poets etc. In short, They create Zaza culture. Here some projects. If you really think that, you know more than Malmisanij, J. Îhsan Espar and others, tell me i will show my respect to you.--Gomada (talk) 17:41, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
What was the topic already? :) "Faşist" "tactics of the PKK" we almost reached the Godwin point. Who first spoke here of "PKK"? Who first made ​​the rounds of talk pages to talk about a user who was not here ([1])? Who requested at other users to operate on other Wikipedia for him ([2])? and who diverted the topic to talk about something else, it's you! You want to impose on everyone, your POV.
I had planned all this (and this kind of accustaion), see here and I see that I am not mistaken
If you want to have a discussion about Kurdistan and the Kurds in English, you have to go on the English Wikipedia, you'll have more contributors. What's stopping you? This is not the role of "Commons"! We store files here, and to be able to easily find them, we need these categories, nothing other! Thank you.--Ghybu (talk) 11:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I've suspected user's edits because he/she made (Arab, Persian, Turkish, Zaza etc.) people "Kurdish" without reliable sources. And then I found similarities between arguments of PKK and Gomada, Especially assimilation tactics against Zaza people. This is nothing but ethnocentric vandalism. Why didn't you become aware of it ? I think it's very harmful for all project of Wikimedia. And as you know they use the term "Faşist" for non-real Fascist. They use that term when they mention to extremists. Takabeg (talk) 12:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
According your thesis, its possible that, i can be a leader of PKK (: Thats quite funny. You talk about article of Dersim massacre. As i showed you before, there is no doubt that Zaza people are ethnic Kurds and the article has started as Zaza Kurds, who changed?. Users had discussed that already. Why didnt you become aware of it? You have edits there. Isnt it harmful when its againist Kurds and Kurdistan? Btw, Kurmanj and Zaza Kurds are/were living together in Dersim and when Turkish soldiers massacred Kurds, they didnt say: These are Kurmanj, lets release. They killed all. Therefore, in the article of Dersim Massacre, we should accept Alevi Kurds. One more thing, be careful, maybe you are talking to a grandchild of those Kurds of Dersim.--Gomada (talk) 18:10, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Facts are stubborn! Who uses the term "Faşist" here? Who made comparison questionable "tactics of the PKK"? Who spends his time on talk pages to discredit people? I understand (and your response shows) you are in a political fight and try to impose your views and you try to discredit other views ... I remind you that il'y has other point of view. You have decided to make of Commons your forum to bring your POV, something you do not have successful on Wp:en and you left it. So I ask you to discuss your POV on a forum or go to the Wikipedia talk pages. I do not want this kind of discussion here, this is not made ​​for. Thank you.--Ghybu (talk) 14:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

A discussion on subcategories of Category:Kurdistan is continuing in this CfD page. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

You have invited your Turkish friend. Good for you (: --Gomada (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't known his ethnicity. Aa long as I understand, Reality006, Gomada (you), Ghybu are Turkish speakers. Although the home wiki of me were Turkish Wikipedia (I've retired), I'm not an ethnic Turk. I've asked Reality006 to control my understanding on Kurdistan on 29 April 2012. That's all. Takabeg (talk) 02:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)