Commons:Categories for discussion/Current requests/2009/07/Category:Castle (Gorizia)

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Category:Castle (Gorizia)[edit]

I think this category should be moved to Category:Gorizia Castle in the same fashion as :

Note also that most French castles are named :

So that Category:Castello di Gorizia is not bad either.

Teofilo (talk) 07:10, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

There are different styles, all depending from region to region. Other examples: , and the following list:

The most important is that the naming style in a particular region is consistent. And that is generally the case with the edits from Giovanni Dallorto in Italy. With his work force (232.000 edits) and his often very long and detailed category names, he must have a consistent category naming system. --Foroa (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Normaly, only English names should be used. The exception is when the castle has a formal proper name, for which some of the Châteaux apply, but certainly only a minority. You might be more tolerant for that rule for things like châteaux, castello and so on, but you migh change your mind when you encounter castles like Крепост, Hrad, Linnus, Burgo, Dvorac, Pils, Pilis, Kasteel, Vár, Крепост, Burcht, Câté, Zamek, Cetate, Замок, Kalaja, Hrad, Grad, Замак, Linna, Borg, ปราสาท, Kale, Замок, Tchestea, Pėlis. --Foroa (talk) 07:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we can bring harmonization by allowing only a limited set of patterns :

The parenthesis should be used only for disambiguation between two or more castles with the same name in two or more different locations :
  • <proper name> Castle (disambiguation)
Category:Beaufort Castle (Luxembourg) (disambiguation page on en:Beaufort Castle listing 4 castles with the same name in 4 different locations)
Category:Matsuyama Castle (Bitchu) (disambiguation page on en:Matsuyama Castle listing 3 castles with the same name in 3 different locations)

I don't think it is good to allow two naming patterns in English. It should always be "Bristol Castle" and never "Castle (Bristol)". If we find more than one castles called "Bristol" they will be called "Bristol Castle (California)", "Bristol Castle (New York)", "Bristol Castle (Massachusetts)", not "Castle (Bristol) (California)" "Castle (Bristol) (New York)", "Castle (Bristol) (Massachusetts)".

I share your view concerning the tolerance of local languages. The problem is that Wikimedia Commons is influenced by the English language Wikipedia, and the English language Wikipedia is perhaps too tolerant with the "châteaux" and the likes.

Teofilo (talk) 08:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Hello. Yes, I am using a consistent pattern in categorising. The simplest one: Name (town), as in the Italian Wikipedia, where I started from. When the category has an English name, I use the English name: Castle (Gorizia). When the object has an Italian name, I keep it: Castello sforzesco (Milan) or Castello sforzesco (Pavia). This systenm is consisten all trhought: Cathedral (Gorizia) - Central Station (Gorizia) - Archbishopry (Gorizia) and so on.

Of course everything can be discussed and changed. But the only thing I ask for, is to avoid to use a different, original, separate and creative criterion for EACH category. I moved this category from "Castello di Gorizia" (in Italian!). Do you want to have "Gorizia castle" instead? Go for it. But please change the whole category "Castles in Italy", which currently needs a thorough revision, and invert all other Italian cathegory.
My request is that one must know in advance and by heart how an image will be cathegorised in Commons, be it as "Gorizia Cathedral" or "Cathedral (Gorizia)". The only thing wa may not afford here, given the gigantig numebr of uncategorized images about Italy, is using a different criterion for each cathegory.

By the way, to date each country moved with a certain, limited freedom. The French example concerning castles shows it clearly. Ditto for Germany: Category:Castle Colmberg. Therefore categories about England are in no way a standard. They are merely the way categories are dealt with in England. Not the yardstick. In short: criteria may vary from country to country, unless a general plan of harmonising was started, as in the case of cataloguing in museums (but not in case of castles). However, within the same nations they should be consistent. For this reason whatever the final decision we may take, "Castello di Gorizia" is simply wrong, since this is not the name of the castle, but merely a generic name, and as a rule already agreed upon generic names should be translated into English.

Of course I'd like to keep all Italian names and have the whole of WikiCommons in my oen language, however Commons is a transnational project, and a common language must be used. While waiting that everyone learns Italian, then, giving English this role is fine for me :-) Best wishes --User:G.dallorto (talk) 17:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Cathedrals should be named according to one the following patterns :

My sources (Oxford Guide to Style, Concise Oxford Dictionary) give "St" (no dot) as the abbreviation for "Saint", and "St." (with dot) for "street" (en:Talk:St Catherine's College, Oxford)

For Gorizia, I suggest either Category:St Hilary and St Tatian's Cathedral, Gorizia or Category:Cathedral of St Hilary and St Tatian, Gorizia, but adding ", Goriza" is perhaps unnecessary. There is probably only one "St Hilary and St Tatian's cathedral" in the whole world.

I would tend to be tolerant to using Italian (Cattedrale di Ss. Ilario e Taziano) (See en:List of cathedrals in Italy) (or French speaking tolerance of Category:Cathédrale Saints-Michel-et-Gudule de Bruxelles (adding "de Bruxelles" is probably unnecessary, by the way), but as Foroa said earlier, this creates an injustice if we refuse to be tolerant with other roman character languages, not to speak about chinese character names or cyrilic charcater names...

Teofilo (talk) 10:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

If we define a naming convention for cathedrals or castles, we should probably define first to which buildings this should apply. It's one thing to place a series of castle-like buildings into a category named "castles", but another one to name a category for each one of these "Castle". At least one of the "château" listed above isn't really a castle, but a restaurant named "château". Many of the samples lack interwiki links, so it's hard to tell what they are about and how they are named in Wikipedia. If everybody already translates it as "castle", it's likely that this is reflected in Wikipedia and a convention isn't really needed. If it's not, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to introduce a translation. Consistency in formatting throughout a region is useful and, at least, categories for the castles of a region should use "castle", e.g. I'd rename Category:Castelli della Valle d'Aosta to Category:Castles of Aosta Valley (consistent with Category:Buildings in Aosta Valley).
BTW, there were lengthy debates about the "st."/"st" over at en.Wikipedia. Not sure if they really came to a conclusion. -- User:Docu at 08:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
The problem is presented in a wrong way. First, most "xxx Castle" or "Castle yyy" categories, are not really proper names but reinvented names because the real proper names are unknown or less popular. As such, according to the english rules, "xxx castle" should be written with castle in lower case. But anyway, those categories fall under the commons naming rules as I see them in order of priority:
  • "Castle in/of xxx" This is by far the preferred Commons format. ("Topic preposition qualifier", "Castles in xxx", "castle of xxx" when there is only one castle, like "churches in/of xxx")
  • As the in/of/from often creates problems, we see that an upcoming tendency is "(yyy) castle, xxx" where xxx is the place. Indeed, the latter avoids not only the in/of/from problem, it is easily extensible for places that need disambiguation terms.
  • another variation is "castle (yyy)" which I should not promote.
As a conclusion, it makes no sense to discuss if the (invented) castle name should be "xxx Castle" or "Castle yyy" as we are talking about inventing proper names while the commons rules are clear for such naming. --Foroa (talk) 08:06, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Personally, I think the "xxx castle" solution Foroa mentioned would be worth to be included as a suggested naming solution (not necessarily a naming convention) for cases where one hesitates on how to name a category. -- User:Docu at 17:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The nominated castle at Gorizia should certainly be moved. For English category names, wherever the subject, "Location (castle)" is unacceptable as it is normally totally unidiomatic in English. The 3 castle versions given above should normally be used, but if a different name is normally used, that should be be used here - eg "Tower of London", "Bastille" (not now obviously) etc. Most cathedrals, local or foreign, except those of major capital cities, are known in English as "Location Cathedral" and this should be followed. Who knows the dedication of Lincoln or Chartres Cathedrals? This is in fact the same in the major European languages - compare Salzburg & Vienna in the different languages. If you go for the most formal name, you have to include "Basilica" for half the Catholic ones, which is not normally used and will confuse people. Omitting the location just because the dedication may be unique for a cathedral is frankly crazy, and will make searches very difficult. Johnbod (talk) 18:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Category:Castle (Gorizia) moved to Category:Castle of Gorizia, matching English language recommendation in category names, and most common naming form for Italian castle categories (Castello di is also common, but less so). If we want to standardise this more, we should have a discussion elsewhere. Rd232 (talk) 23:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)