File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 1

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Changes of Control

According to the Wall Street Journal, Qaddafi has retaken Ras Lanuf. WSJ Article --175.201.133.250 08:34, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

The situation in Bani Walid is unclear. --175.201.133.250 13:51, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Haaretz now also says that Qaddafi has been defeated in Brega. Probably time to change that. Also, as I noted above, Adjabiya and Bani Walid should be black and yellow respectively. --175.201.133.250 13:57, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


I haven't got a "hard" source for it, but Al Khums is not liberated, but under Gaddafi control: http://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/43390481777958912Nightstallion (?) 19:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I have also found other news that supports this claim [1][2]


March 3 - Actualisation to the Current situation

According to El País (a spaniard newspaper) who published a map: [3] Wazin and Nalut are under pro-Gaddafi forces; and Yefren(Yafren) and Sebrata are under anti-Gaddafi rebels control. ▬Inhakito (talk) 19:50, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

I have many souces claiming that Nalut is still under demonstrators support.[4][5] Many sources also claim that Ras Lanuf is being used as a rendezvous for forces that attack Brega so it's clearly under Gaddafi's control. Also Gaddafi controls all of Libya’s border gates with Tunisia including Ras Ajdir and Wazen. Rafy (talk) 20:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
Frankly, I think this map is BS and we're better off getting our own sources piece by piece. —Nightstallion (?) 20:42, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree. That map is very clearly wrong, as evidenced by this link showing Nalut as in opposition hands: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2011/03/01/134145272/libya-update-u-s-envoy-calls-gahdafi-delusional --Interchange88 (talk) 21:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I can accept if you say that the map is wrong and that it is not reliable, because it doesn't upset me, but frankly, you shall not say obscenities because it is unnecessary. Inhakito (talk) 23:38, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
I think he was just using the term "BS" in an informal manner - I don't think he was trying to be rude. Face-smile.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:41, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Yep, no offence meant. —Nightstallion (?) 10:22, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

We need another quick update, the democrats are assaulting Ras Lanouf and Gaddafi is assaulting Az Zawiya. http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/breaking-clashes-in-ras-lanuf-west-of-ajdabiya/Nightstallion (?) 13:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done-- Rafy (talk) 14:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)
Great, thanks! —Nightstallion (?) 14:26, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

http://www.libyafeb17.com/ says Gharyan is now back in opposition hands, but I can't find a "hard" source right now. —Nightstallion (?) 14:28, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

According to Al Arabiya the battalion responsible of guarding Gharyan moved to Tripoli in anticipation of future clashes.[6] I will just colour it yellow for now.-- Rafy (talk) 14:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparent confirmation for the liberation of Ras Lanuf and Gharyan at [7] and [8], but again, only twitter sources for now. —Nightstallion (?) 15:00, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

I think Twitter may actually be a better source than news articles, at least in this case. News sources are dated very quickly, I've seen some posting events from several days prior as "news," and very few of them have correspondents on the ground outside of the Benghazi and Tripoli. I recall during the 2009 Iran protests there were a lot of misleading retweets, but this doesn't seem to be as big a problem here, while often news articles seem to be nothing more than summaries of the same rumors and wire service reports. --175.201.133.250 12:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree, iyad_elbaghdadi in particular seems to be a very reliable source to me, but I don't think tweets are permissible per WP's current rules. ::sighs:: —Nightstallion (?) 13:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Keep in mind that iyad_elbaghdadi isn't in Libya, but in the UAE. He's the most retweeted, but I think his strongest point is that his tweets are easy to understand and in good English. There's a handful of English posters in Libya and their tweets take some effort to understand. But most of the tweets that seem relevant are in Arabic, and I know just enough Arabic not to trust Google Translate even for Modern Standard Arabic. Regardless of WP official policy, it would be nice to have someone with strong command of MSA and/or Maghrebi Arabic working on this. --175.201.133.250 15:18, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

If we want to include a new town between Sirt and Ras Lanouf, the rebels have (re?)captured Bin Jawad. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41921215/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/ Also, iyad_elbaghdadi still states that Gharyan and Bani Walid are liberated, but I haven't seen any other sources stating that. —Nightstallion (?) 09:59, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed, by several sources, however all these articles seem to be very close and may be using one base source. Any rate, looking at Google maps, Bin Jawad is a very small town. If the rebels are on the move, I'd propose waiting until the front gets bogged down again or they capture Sirte. My impression is that Ras Lanuf, which only appears on the same scale, was only included because it's where the front bogged down. --175.201.133.250 12:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
You're probably right. With a bit of luck, we'll see Sirt be liberated today. —Nightstallion (?) 13:33, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
That would be nice, but unlikely, until we see a major shift towards the rebels. It's his hometown, heavily defended, and his only major base outside Tripoli. Incidentally, I realized that Ras Lanuf is included not because of its size, but for its importance as an oil terminal. Though I still support adding the city of the furthest rebel advance if they get bogged down outside Sirte --175.201.133.250 13:54, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
We'll see, but iyad_elbaghdadi's tweets sound rather optimistic; there's also been infighting in Sirt. —Nightstallion (?) 14:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Just in general, a note: I would strongly recommend against using Twitter as a source. It is of course by definition not a reliable source. And to bring up a painful memory for the Arab world: let's not forget that the radio broadcasts in 1948 continuously gave overly optimistic results of the "liberated" cities in Palestine, only for it to turn out untrue. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:05, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


Military Bases and Checkpoints?

I'm wondering if there's a way to show areas where Qaddafi still controls isolated military bases? As I understand it, he still controls the Tunisian border crossings, despite the rebels holding most of the territory en route as well as some bases in or near rebel-held cities, such as Misratah. Not circles, but maybe a gun symbol? --175.201.133.250 14:00, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

It would be difficult but possible to do, yes. It might cause some confusion with the many different translations we have for the description, but it would be worth a try. However, we'd need hard information on which crossings were involved. If you don't want to log in, perhaps you could edit and store the file on a file sharing service like pastebin (remember svg is a text based format). Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:02, 5 March 2011 (UTC)


Bani Walid

Is definitely liberated, a caller at Arabiya just stated rebels are moving in from Bani Walid to Sirt to help the rebels from the east liberate it. —Nightstallion (?) 18:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Does that mean the city is necessarily fully under rebel control? Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:03, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Doubt they'd leave the city with less defences if it were under assault. —Nightstallion (?) 20:10, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
According to iyad_elbaghdadi's sources, the elders remain in the city and the youth are out to help the others. —Nightstallion (?) 22:23, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
An anti-Gaddafi newspaper based in Benghazi is imploring the people of Bani Walid, Tarhuna, Khums ans Zliten into joining the revolution. The writer is using a strong language against them as they are failing the rest of the country in his opinion. This newspaper has been tied to the interim council in Benghazi. This clearly suggests that these areas are still largely loyal to Gaddafi. Rafy (talk) 01:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
From what I've read, they are being criticised for not coming to the help of az-Zawiya as it is under attack, not for not rising up... At worst, they are neutral, but I really doubt they're pro-Qaddafi. —Nightstallion (?) 02:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Actually It was a call for an uprising to ease pressure on other cities. Any way I found other stories suggesting that the town is still largely loyal to Gaddafi.[9][10]. Rafy (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


Sirt

Actually, PressTV claims Sirt has fallen... I haven't seen a second source for that yet, though. —Nightstallion (?) 22:44, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not buying it yet. Why haven't any major western networks mentioned this? Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:46, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
Assuming it's legit, because communications are still sketchy... But yeah, I don't buy it so far, either. Let's see what tomorrow brings; yellow should be fine for now. —Nightstallion (?) 00:22, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
That piece of information is taken from a propaganda website belonging to the Iranian government. They have clearly no journalists or inside contacts from Libya. Besides just take a look at their other headlines: "Egyptians marching to Gaza border" :/, "Another US-led soldier dies in Afghan war"... Just false and unprofessional. I suggest waiting until mainstream media confirm this, since as far as I know know fights were reported in Sirt, so it should be green for now. Rafy (talk) 01:10, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
No reports of fights in Sirt in Arab media except for Al Jazeera Blog. Rafy (talk) 01:21, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Some twitterers claim to have had telephone contact with people from Sirt who say the city is liberated or in the process of being liberated, but I suppose we'll know more tomorrow. —Nightstallion (?) 02:04, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
I second the point that we can safely ignore anything posted on presstv.ir. But we have other sources saying that the rebels are now "marching on Sirt", so I guess we will hear more about this soon. --Dbachmann (talk) 10:05, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
The WSJ was quite clear that Sirt had a few skirmishes (which are now over) and has always well within Gaddafist control. Without objection, when I have time, I will change is back to green. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
(Isn't it already green?) ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:22, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
(Er, yes, they changed it while I wasn't looking) Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:09, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


6 March

Ras Lanuf should be red and Bin Jawad yellow, from the latest reports on BBC News and Al Jazeera. I'd advocate leaving Az Zawiya yellow for now, too, as Qaddafi continues to attack it intermittently. —Nightstallion (?) 12:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

+1 I was going to say just that. --SJ+ 13:43, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, though since Az Zawiya itself remains under opposition control at last I checked, one could leave that as it is. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
Seeing as Al-Zawiya has changed hands several times over the past 48 hours, I think "ongoing fighting/unclear situation" would be a very apt description. It's no use switching between red and green every couple of hours, that's what the yellow is for :) --Dbachmann (talk) 10:07, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


9 March

Rebels have entered Bin Jawad [11]. Map should be updated. --194.171.56.13 15:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Yep, indeed. —Nightstallion (?) 19:56, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Zawiah is in control of government troops. For Ras Lanuf situation is unclear, ongoing figth probably. Bin Jawad...was in control of government troops in the morning, we should wait for some more news. --Mile (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Nope, az-Zawiyah is still being fought over, check the news. —Nightstallion (?) 23:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Heavy fighting in Ras Lanuf with rebels retreating, per the news (AJE). Some rumors about fights in Bin Jawad and Brega too, but those seem to be shakier. 140.247.147.229 15:06, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


Scale

Could a scale be put on to the map, please? 188.220.41.189 15:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done-- Rafy (talk) 15:06, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


Recent changes

I've reverted the recent changes: It's far from clear that Qaddafi has taken az-Zawiya [12] [13] and it's not clear that the battle is in Ras Lanuf and not in Ben Jawad right now; actually, the battle is probably between the two, so both Ras Lanuf and Ben Jawad should be yellow for now. [14]Nightstallion (?) 12:50, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Correction: I wanted to revert, but someone else was faster. —Nightstallion (?) 12:51, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

There's fighting in Ras Lanuf again per Timeline_of_2011_Libyan_uprising#11_March. BTW, why is Sabratha yellow? Haven't seen any reports from there...? —Nightstallion (?) 12:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay, Sabratha is green again, but Ras Lanuf should be yellow (maybe red later today, unclear right now), see 4:55pm here. (FYI, I tried to edit it myself, but can't really get Inkscape to work the way it should.) —Nightstallion (?) 15:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done-- Rafy (talk) 15:26, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
Great, thanks! —Nightstallion (?) 15:31, 11 March 2011 (UTC)


March 12

The page at en:Battle of Misurata mentions a new attack on the city. Yellow? Ansh666 (talk) 06:19, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


March 14

http://www.libyafeb17.com/ has adamantly stated that Brega is in rebel hands,although other some other sources say it is with controlled by Gaddafi. Perhaps changing the colour back to yellow for the moment?

Yeah, I'd agree. And we need to keep an eye on az-Zawiyah, there's reports that Qaddafi is again besieging the town – which means he's outside... ;)Nightstallion (?) 10:22, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I changed Brega back to yellow for now. —Nightstallion (?) 10:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

The site has been updated and a journalist who is with rebel forces says that they have retreated from Brega to make a stand at Ajdabiya. I guess this means that Brega is definitely under government control. Bah, too many conflicting reports. Keep it yellow for now.

Disagree - Brega is under solid pro-Gaddafi control, and rebels who were not pushed out were also "pulling out strategically". The offensive has moved to Ajdabiya, which is now under attack.[15][16]
  • Ajdabiya - Purple -> Yellow
  • Quote: Al Jazeera English reports that according to its sources, Gaddafi’s forces have attacked the city of Zuara in an attempt to take control of it. Zuara = Zuwarah. -----> yellow. --Dezidor (talk) 12:18, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
  • Multiple reports indicate that Gharyan has been fought over and is under solid pro-Gaddafi support. [17][18] Gharyan Purple --> Green--Screwball23 (talk) 12:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Reuters and BBC reported Zuara/Zuwarah is under government control. Please dont revert that update. For Misrata, more news needed. --Mile (talk) 21:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I will also ask user Zenithfel not to make disturbing reverts without any reliable sources. --Mile (talk) 21:49, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I put Zuwarah in green, Misrata in red (when closer siege starts should be yellow), Brega in yellow (unclear situation for now). Dont interfere other cities when updating other with reverting. --Mile (talk) 23:05, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


User:Giornorosso is a primary if not fully vandalism only account

Based on http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/3/36/20110302101847!Libyan_Uprising.svg and the Long live Gadaffi POV edit summaries, I submit that Giornorosso is a primary if not fully vandalism only account.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Wrong name of Tripoli looks like mistake and uploading his own test version. His another edits are optimistic about loyalists and cities that they have under the control but these edits are definitely not vandalism. Long live Gadaffi is POV edit summary. --Dezidor (talk) 11:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
I think he's trolling, and nothing more. He is blocked on the de-wiki and the en-wiki for racist personal attacks/vandalism. A zero tolerance policy should be enforced here, in my opinion. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 11:09, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
His edits at Czech Wikipedia are OK in principle. Sometimes a little hot and confrontational but OK and useful (except one case of copyright problem). Systematic bias of en.wiki where people like Jpgordon, Jayjg, Black Kite, KimvdLinde, Will Beback... block all editors who do not promote their POV is different topic. --Dezidor (talk) 12:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
What of the de-wiki? Writing "Du dreckige Neger" on a user talkpage is hardly an "OK and useful" comment. It is a straight-up personal attack. Furthermore, you can't seriously claim that this this are acceptable edits. You can't reasonably chalk up his blocks to some conspiracy of POV-pushing admins. He's just trolling, and it should not be tolerated. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Yes, some of his edits at Czech Wikipedia are really useful. For example he traslated parts of this article from Slovak Wikipedia. At English Wikipedia he was active from July 2010 and was blocked this week without any previous short time block. Yes, his edits are sometimes trolling and sometimes just amateur but we can use soft methods to regulate his edits and behavior, not be passive one year and then block him permanently. --Dezidor (talk) 22:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
English Wikipedia admins are really funny. After our discussion here I checked his edits at en.wiki, added one correct edit back, and they blocked me as his sockpuppet. --Dezidor (talk) 16:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


Brega

Since yesterday (14) Brega is in Gaddafi's troops control. Brega need changes to green colour. 161.67.208.130 12:00, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Nope, there are continuous reports of fights there and even some reports that rebels are in control except for small pockets. —Nightstallion (?) 13:50, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

March 15th: Brega is in yellow since battle is ongoing - no clear situation. Also is stated Misrata is under shelling, so with confirmation it could go yellow. --Mile (talk) 15:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

p.S. Ajdabya under siege as AJE reports. Could go yellow. --Mile (talk) 15:55, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Ajdabiyah confirmed as being safe again, so no reason to go yellow. —Nightstallion (?) 19:26, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Safe by whom ? Reports for Ajdabya are very conflicting, by AJE, Reuters, BBC - but it seems figthing is there now. Since its clear Brega is taken by government troops, so Brega goes green. For Ajdabya we need some more news - not just by one source. --Mile (talk) 19:54, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

BBC and Al Jazeera both claim that fights are still taking place in Brega and Ajdabia so I made them yellow for the time being.Rafy (talk) 21:41, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


Ajdabiya

Ajdabiya is under Gaddafi's control. :) Change the map immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fn1m (talk • contribs) 22:30, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Nope. [21]Nightstallion (?) 22:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Is that you Muammar? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 122.108.172.183 (talk) 10:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Now under rebel's control!? "Libyan opposition rebels take the key eastern city of Ajdabiya from government control, Al Jazeera's James Bays reports from the city. Bays said:There is no doubt about it, you can probably hear some of the celebrations behind me, Ajdabiya is in opposition hands." http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/live-blog-libya-march-26 83.185.154.35 09:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


16 March

FYI, there are reports on Twitter that Sirt has revolted against Qaddafi, I suppose we'll know more in the morning; rebels also claim Ajdabiya is completely free of Qaddafi's men and they retreated at least to Brega, maybe even further. —Nightstallion (?) 23:06, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently some tribes there have revolted. The revolutionary flag had been hoisted in the city at some point. Waiting for official news confirmation... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, troops stationed there (the 36th Battalion I think) have defected and taken several points in the town. It should be yellow at least. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 122.108.172.183 (talk) 08:31, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Misrata under attack, reported by Reuters, confirmed by resident. Misrata could go yellow. --Mile (talk) 09:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC). p.S. Waiting confirmation from other source.

If Misrata is now yellow, then so should be Sirt. —Nightstallion (?) 11:40, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Can't find anything about Sirt except in twitter and libyafeb17.com which I'm more than reluctant to endorse. On the other hand Misrata's offensive is confirmed by major news sites. Rafy (talk) 12:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
Frankly, as most major news organizations apart from Al Jazeera now seem to repeat what the Libyan State Television (!) claims, I don't think we need to make that distinction any longer. —Nightstallion (?) 16:07, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

FYI, a source for Qaddafi's control of Bani Walid is at [22]. —Nightstallion (?) 16:08, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


Brega is lost for Rebels since yesterday,or even 2 days ago. Its question for Ajdabya - if Rebels are still there, but Brega is clearly in Government hands as newssites reported. So could go green. --Mile (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

What about Gharyan? BBC's map here suggests rebel control; on the other hand, they've put the city in the wrong place (farther south towards the edge of where Gharyan District was before 2007)! So I don't know how much to trust it. --SJ+ 16:57, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
According to reports, the fight is going on from Brega to Ajdabiya, so both are being fought over. Gharyan is in Qaddafi's hands, AFAIK, BBC map is simply outdated. —Nightstallion (?) 17:03, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
That map is outdated - saw it before, Zuara is in hands of Government since 2 days ago, and that Ujara village cant be yellow, since Brega is taken. For Brega, Reuters reporter was in town, its in Governement hands. News is on Reuters webpage. --Mile (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
About Bani Walid: the article involved never explicitly says that Bani Walid is under government control, only that its inhabitants were not able to leave the area. The same situation applies for, say Az Zintan, which we know is in opposition hands. Furthermore, we know for a fact that the tribe dominant in the area is opposed to Ghaddafi, so I don't think this one source is certain or explicit enough to draw a potentially significant conclusion from.--24.13.239.17 21:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


Sirt

The Wikipedia timeline article claims that the situation is shifting in the city of Sirt, and I think that it should be made yellow. --Interchange88 (talk) 00:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

While Sirte is being discussed, it should be spelled with an "e" at the end, as that is the main spelling used on Wikipedia. Rivkid007 (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


2nd Battle of Benghazi

Aparantly Gaddafi's men have reached Benghazi again, should we maybe turn it yellow? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.221.201.125 (talk) 01:10, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

So far aerial attacks were reported, Bengazi airport was bombed. Yellow will/would go if siege or ground attack started. --Mile (talk) 17:04, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


17 March

  • Bengazi: cant be yellow yet, till siege start, no such infos so far, so red is correct.
  • Sirt: Green, no infos of any side switching.
  • Bani Walid: Couldnt find any news on it, could be yellow.
  • Brega: as i stated in Government hands, confirmed by Reuters, so green.
  • Ajdabya: yellow, since battle is ongoing there.

Dont rally on pro-Government or Pro-Rebel medias when making corrections. --Mile (talk) 09:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


Zueitina

Should the small oil town of Zueitina be added? Apparently, Gaddafi launched an amphibious attack on it today (see this), and claims to have seized it, but rebels contend that the are being dealt with. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary, but if it turns up again in news stories, we can include it. —Nightstallion (?) 11:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


Oil fields & recent moves


Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.