File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 6

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From the "Libya Live" coverage from The Telegraph: ..."rebels also fought Gaddafi loyalists for control of Sabha, an important city in the southern desert 400 miles south of the capital, likely to be a final stronghold" [1] -- 23:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

And maybe we ought to change to solid blue. Report (on Twitter, yes, I know…) thinks Sabha experienced an uprising already on Sunday. And now there're reports of shelling of the town by Gaddafi loyalists. Mahmoud Jibril also mentioned the brave Libyans in Sabha in his speech/press conference this afternoon. So keep an eye out for any update in official media.--Paracel63 (talk) 23:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Sabha is one of Gadaffi's most supportive areas. I doubt , for now, that there is many so called rebels in the area and those who are there will likely get crushed.

Contrary to popular belief Qaddadfa is minority in Sabbha and if you didnt get the memo, G lost Tripoli, meaning he lost his main CnC center. In war it means end, his forces will be disorgnized, without any informations and coordinations and will probably surrender just as those remaining on coast did. This war is over, its just matter of days. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

It may be one of Gad's most supportive areas, but as EllsworthSK said, Gad's forces are disorganised because of the fall of Gad's HQ, and there is fighting going on ([2]] I suggest a change to solid blue --Vectrex, 15:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I acknowledge that there will be people in Sabha who dislike Gadaffi, same as Benghazi some people there support Gadaffi. It has already been said somewhere his forces are still being commanded , use of mobiles seem like the main way. Let's just hope the libyans stand together and fight these so called 'rebels'.

Is that you, Moussa? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
hehehe, you made my day, Lothar. Elllit (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Aziziya (city)

I'm a bit bothered by the glaring green dot in Al Aziziya. It seems hard to believe that Qaddafists still hold that small town, when the rebels hold both Gharyan and most of Tripoli. But I can't find any reliable sources, because like Zuwarah, the rebels announced their plans to take it just before they stormed Tripoli, and it suddenly became a lot less important. Zuwarah of course we didn't hear when they took it, only when the rebels used it as a launching pad and later when his excellency counter-attacked. And in this case, news from the area has been swamped by the fall of the compound of the same name.

Why do we have it on here anyways? Most maps [1] (yes they are outdated, but the point is which cities they treat as important) don't bother to show it at all. Can we remove it until we get some indication what the status is? We have no way of knowing, and it's driving me crazy. --Quintucket (talk) 05:24, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see what's so hard to believe. Pockets of resistance are far from unheard of in warfare. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
I know that. However with Bani Walid or Mezda for instance, I can find news sources citing their loyalties as Qaddafist, thus the reason they would be hard to capture. With Al-Aziziya, we heard about it as a target for the rebels, and then nothing again. (The same thing happened with Zuwarah until we learned they attacked Ras Adjir from said city.) We don't know if they've taken it without resistance, if it's under siege, or if they're completely ignoring it, as all the news I can find is doing. Again, it's a small town with a similar name to the much more important Qaddafi stronghold in Tripoli. I suspect that the whole of Libya could turn red and we still wouldn't hear when its captured. It's the same as Msallata, where we heard the rebels took it, then nothing, no idea what's happening. Only Msallata has 55,000 people and Al-Aziziya has 4,000. I think it would make sense to leave the ambiguity of small towns to the Tripoli front, and just take this town out. --Quintucket (talk) 07:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Aziziyah is taken by rebels: A German reporter in Aziziyah, saying the rebels have taken the town. Also the English wikipedia already claims Aziziyah is in rebel hands on the page of the rebel coastal offensive!

✓ Done--EllsworthSK (talk) 08:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Can someone put a date for this city. The video is dated as of August 23. So the takeover is at least that old. (Anonymous)

Sirte offensive

Dear Wikipedia. On the page of the "Rebel advance to Sirte" I read that BBC journalist had confirmed that rebel troops were on the eastern outskirts of Sirte. So, if that is true, shouldn't Bin Jawad be coloured red, and a bleu ring around Sirte? (no sig, unknown Contributor)

Hi, Unknown, understand Wikipedia as the resting place for a final selection of safe facts. It shall not report all the up and down in the drama. If you seek a clever newsroom, here is one, saying: Gaddafi forces halt rebel advance on road to Sirte.--Fluss (talk) 21:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
No, Jonny Hallam confirmed that frontline is between As Sidr and Bin Jawad, so map is correct. -- 08:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
As my contribution meant.--Fluss (talk) 11:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Bin Jawad

Please change Bin Jawad back to green with blue ring. A rebel commander today stated that opposition forces managed to move up to the edge of the town, nothing about them capturing it. Obviously the report from the previous day that they captured it was another rebel propaganda stunt like the ones with Brega. Here is the source [2]. Thank you. User talk:EkoGraf

I read that as they've gone past the city to the western edge of Bin Jawad, given that Sirte is next in their sights. And of course given that reports for the past few days give it to the rebels. --Quintucket (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't say western edge, it says A rebel commander said forces advancing from the east had reached the edge of Bin Jawad, a town about 140 km (90 miles) from Sirte. Nothing about it being a western edge, but actualy forget it, new rebel claims now since that rebel commander's statement again put the town under their control. So we see in the next couple of days what happens. No need to change for now. I changed my mind. User talk:EkoGraf

That article is from yesterday, we have witness reports from journalists which were in Bin Jawad and confirmed its takeover which happened rather rapidly [3] and also several other sources in Guardian, Reuters and I saw it somewhere on BBC. --EllsworthSK (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


According to this source [4] rebels fought battle with remaining loyalist forces in Tarhouna. What about putting it to blue till someone will be able to confirm in which hands it is. I wouldn´t bring this up but today col. Bani during his press conference said that Tarhouna is under rebel control, although that part wasn´t reported by any media however this would confirm what he said. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. I've also put Bani Walid to under siege, per this discussion, and this article. It seems to have been under a state of semi-siege similar to Zuwarah, for the past few days. --Quintucket (talk) 16:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

And According to these video and talks surrounding Tarhuna, it has been liberated for a few days now: (CENTRAL CITY AREA OF TARHUNA)

Can anybody confirm that this is indeed Tarhouna in the video? --Quintucket (talk) 07:55, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
I did it here (second video). At least I identified the mosque. I'm not positively sure in which direction the column entered Tarhuna/Tarhouna, but there were talks of it going _towards_ Tripoli, not entering _from_ Tripoli. I e a column from the Misrata/Zliten/Al Khums area.--Paracel63 (talk) 14:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't matter anyways. I found a couple sources which I was sure I linked in a reply to myself. But I also posted them on the T-Front map. --Quintucket (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Jufrah/Al Jawf

Al Jawf is apparently under Gaddafi control: [5] 17:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Jufrah is district which capital is Hun, south of Sirte. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
You have Jufrah confused with Kufra. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, my bad. 18:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Is it true sudanese troops control kufra?
Lolno, that was just a combination of rumours and bad reporting. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Yea Al jawf (kufra) has been in the hands of the NTC since the very early stages of the revolution the whole thing with Sudan was a lie/mistake MonteMiz (talk) 02:58, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli (2)

Tripoli is mostly held by rebels: [6] It should be red with a blue ring. 03:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. Tripoli is not under siege because the rebels face no threats from the outside--they control all the nearby cities except possibly Tarhuna and Msallata, where we've heard basically nothing. But the city itself is still contested because several districts are still held by Qaddafi loyalists. Basically unless Qaddafi mounts a surprising comeback, it will remain blue until the rebels restore order. --Quintucket (talk) 06:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I take that back. We have heard from Tarhuna. [7] --Quintucket (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)--Quintucket (talk) 07:15, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Tripoli to rebels 1 -- Vectrex, 17:19, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
This article takes it for granted that the rebels control all of Tripoli. As does this one. And this video. It's probable that there is a bit of sabotage or occasional clashes, as there was in Zawiya initially after Qaddafi took the city. The important question: is there anything indicating that loyalist forces actually control anything in the city? Or is it time at last to paint the town red? --Quintucket (talk) 20:34, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I think it's time for Tripoli to become fully red. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I've just reverted an edit making Tripoli brown on the grounds that the rebels apparently said htat there was still one compound not taken in Tripoli, so its still contested. The counterargument given to this was that the rebels have been wrong before, but I feel like its different, because in the past it has been being "optimistic" about having already taken cities they hadn't yet, and this is clearly the other way around.--Yalens (talk) 23:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Frankly, I dont believe that Tripoli is contested anymore. That one compound is in Greater Tripoli, not Tripoli itself. As for guerilla attacks by loyalist, rebels were conducting those for months in Tripoli before its takeover and none suggested changing colour from green to blue. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I think Ellsworth is correct here; the city proper is in rebel hands, regardless of what is going on in the suburbs and whatever small elements of resistance have managed to elude detection (these are present even in Benghazi). Showing the city as "contested" is a bit of a stretch at this point. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:57, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree, it's time for Tripoli to be red. With the taking of Abu Salim, the last significant resistance in the city is gone. A few snipers scattered around the city does not make the city contested any more. The NTC has announced they are moving to Tripoli and most news outlets are also reporting the city as under rebel control. Fovezer (talk) 03:05, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I cannot see how this shouldn't have a blue ring around it; the size of the bubble is proportional to the size of the city, and is probably proportional to the size of greater Tripoli. As the airport is currently being shelled, it should have a blue ring IMHO. I imagine there are probably other pockets of resistance as well? Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Is the airport being shelled? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:39, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


The AJE Live Blog posted this update, telling of a convoy of cars that escaped to Algeria through Ghadames. The source for the update was the rebel military council in the city. This combined with this report from The Guardian makes me think that Ghadames is rebel held. Red with blue ring, perhaps? Thoughts? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I saw the same thing on yahoo news: [8] So yes, I would support moving to red with blue ring. 05:46, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
It seems unclear to me. There weren't rebel fighters on hand to intercept that convoy of armored cars, and no one has reported from Ghadames recently on the status of the town. It seems to be a textbook unclear situation. -Kudzu1 (talk) 13:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
The source says nothing about a lack of rebel fighters, it just says that rebels were unable to chase the convoy down. As for nobody reporting: it is in the southern desert. No correspondents go there. Just like Qatrun, Murzuq and all those little uninhabited outposts that show up on the map when they are captured, only to disappear some time later. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:57, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Oops, I just changed it. Also changed Tripoli to brown, since loyalists do not seem to control anything in the city proper (there are still snipers, of course, but we've never reflected that in the eastern cities). And added a question mark to Mizda. Maybe that's what we should do with Ghadames? Kwamikagami (talk) 14:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I never heard about bin Jawad being taken by rebels. In fact, AJE Live Blog just reported that one of their reporters was sent close to the front line, which was not far from Ras Lanouf 16:39, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Splendid, now check the main article, list to the source and read it. Not so hard as it may seem. --EllsworthSK (talk) 19:05, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Sam Kiley on Sky says Bin Jawad was completely taken by the FF today (guess since they are in control, rebels may be wrong): (Jessica Lane, 3:39 PM). Also AJE says that via Twitter,!/AJELive/statuses/107499190782930945. So the front line is very obvious between Bin Jawad and Sirte. Obviously the reason was NATO bombing on GF in Bin Jawad overnight and FF advancing surprisingly over 20 km.
Also Tripoli might have some small pockets with GF, but in fact the city is very much FF contolled. So both cities should be brown with blue circle.
For Ghadames, there is no information and so the city might be all in blue or even green with blue circle. 19:30, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
The sources we have give no indication that Ghadames should be green. See the first post in this thread. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
No. Blue circle means "under siege", not "contested". It should not be used as "contested, but one side holds much more ground than the other". --NetRolller 3D (talk) 18:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
If you go this way consequently, then Brega (green with blue ring) was wrong for many days as FF held a part of the city. Also there is no indication that Sabha is green with blue ring too, either it is GF held or contested, but not under siege. On the other side, Sirte seems to be under siege from FF from Misrata. And given latest reports, there are no remarkable GF held areas in Tripolis anymore, just some snipers. The GF troops seem to be southeast from Tripolis. Also Zuwara isn't under siege anymore according reports of FF cleaning up cities in perimeter.
Would you please sign and date your posts (using the --~~~~)? Any rate Brega was largely held by Qaddafi forces, with a clear rebel attack from the outskirts. Ghadames is probably under rebel control, but we're not sure. Probably still = blue. The siege comment refers to the past situation. And my impression is that it was under siege from Berber tribesmen in that area, as Qaddafi apparently controlled that border crossing. So until we're sure, straight up blue. When we are sure, it should be straight up red. --Quintucket (talk) 07:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I've put Ghadames as red, since all recently reports do seem to have it in rebel hands. Like I said, there's no evidence for an ongoing siege, so if you think there's some doubt, please change it straight blue. --Quintucket (talk) 08:03, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and as for Sabha: The logic is that the city itself is the home of his tribesmen and still loyalist, but the Tobou tribesmen have attempted to cut it off. I'm not sure how well we're doing. We haven't heard much from the south at all recently. --Quintucket (talk) 08:07, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
News does not travel well through deserts. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Ghadamis is under G control [9] --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. It sounds like this is another "We've taken Brega/Zlitan/Zuwarah. And we'll do it again tomorrow!" deals. --Quintucket (talk) 15:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

On German ARD/SWR was a report from Tripoli. The correspondent talked about the many closed or almost empty shops in Tripoli. He also said he was yesterday in Zuwarah and there the shops, bakeries, butchers are all open and have plenty of food. And the shop owners told him they get all from Tunisia now. He also said on radio that the war is obviously over in the north west of Libya. So it should be safe to travel from a) Tripoli to Zuwara b) Zuwara to Tunisian border. I don't believe there is dangerous armies or weapons of G left, maybe some goons from a tribe anywhere with green flags. But no threat and Zuwara for sure not under siege. And very probably no G forces in Al Ayalat. 12:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

According to this post on the AJE libya blog Ghademes is under rebel control -- 17:30, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

PressTV also reports that it's under rebel control[10] --Dittaeva (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Zuwara + Ras Ajdir

CNN, 28. August 2011, the town Zuwara and the border controlpost Ras Ejdir (Ras Ajdir) (ثوار زوارة يحررون الحدود مع تونس) are under control of the rebels. CNN mentioned, the rebels saying, the (usual) „pockets of Gaddafi forces” would be cleaned in the next hours. If there have not been no news from there, regarding considerable new fighting, the blue circle can be rem,oved.--Fluss (talk) 11:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say the siege appears to be no-longer effective. --Quintucket (talk) 16:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


Mizdah needs to be removed, we haven't had any new info about it for a week. 16:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Why? No recent information = unclear situation. The explanation below the map clearly says: Blue = Ongoing fighting/unclear situation (emphasis mine). 17:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Just because we've heard nothing about it in a week doesn't mean it should be removed. By that logic, we should remove Jalu, Tobrouk, Al Bayda, Yefren and Zintan too.-- 18:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
The big difference here is that we know the status of all those cities. We haven't heard from them because they're all held by the NTC. Same for all those cities in Fezzan held by Qaddafi. Mizdah someone added based on one source and we haven't heard from it again. --Quintucket (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I found an article published today that mentions the current status of Mizdah. It appears to be in control of the Mashaashia tribespeople: "'We are here to negotiate reconciliation with the Nafusa Mountains, to be accepted, and to plan for a future together,' says the sheik of the Mashaashia. The Mashaashia, Gadhafi loyalists, also inhabit the southern town of Mizdah, which, if it fell under rebel control, could cut a crucial supply route of armaments and soldiers to the regime’s garrison town Gharyan, the so-called gateway to Tripoli. 'We have 200 fighters, ready with trucks and weapons inside Mizdah,' says Bilgassim Mashaashia, stroking his long white beard. 'Secretly,' he says, 'more than half the Mashaashia support the revolution. But because of Gadhafi’s iron-fisted grip on the city, they cannot show themselves.' Turning to the rebel generals, he says: 'We are here to say that Mizdah will never stab the rebels in the back.'" [1] -- 23:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

The reliability of that source can be questioned, qoute: "... Mizdah, which, if it fell under rebel control, could cut a crucial supply route of armaments and soldiers to the regime’s garrison town Gharyan". That's true, except that Gharyan fell to anti-Gaddafi forces almost a week ago. While they do acknowledge that earlier in the article ("As the Gadhafi garrison town of Gharyan, at the bottom of the Western Mountains, fell to rebels"), the presence of such a glaring contradiction that involves the very sentence that deals with the position of Mizdah strongly suggests a better source is needed for the exact situation in that town. 20:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
The NTC controls Mizdah according to the BBC 23:05, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Mizdah redux

I saw a map today that showed it as rebel control. But I have one window full of tabs devoted to Libya, and I must have closed that particular tab, as I can't find it again. Anybody else seen this map? Or seen a reference in another source? (Google News is often unreliable, for example it has always returned 0 results for Qatrun.) --Quintucket (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

For Qatrun, you have to try a whole bunch of different transliterations (e.g. Gatrun, Qatroun, Gatroun, Katroun, etc.) ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:37, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
No, I mean that WSJ article on a southern front mentioned Qatrun by name in the text. I found that article by searching for "Sabha Libya." As I found the one I mentioned in a generic search for Libya, which of course is why I can't find it again (also, I'm not sure if Mizdah was named in the article). "Mizdah" turns up only old articles, and "Mizda" turns up only articles in Romanian.
Any rate, this article says that Mizdah is still in Qaddafi hands. -Quintucket (talk) 20:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Its logical that Mizdah is in rebel hands. We have confirmation that road from Beni Walid to Sabbha is in part in hands of rebels and the only way for them to get there is from Mizdah. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)


So I noticed the map had "Mizdah" changed to "Mizda," and as the few references I can find call it "Mizdah," I was going to change it back when I noticed that except for a slight preference for "Zuwarah" over "Zuwara," most other names ending in ta marbutah (Tarhuna, Zawiya, Brega) do without a final "h" to signify the "ة" in media sources. And of course there are a number of other such issues, most of which seem to have resolved themselves (u vs ou vs oo, to "al" or not to "al"). But still, I'd like to know: Do we have a consistent Romanization policy? --Quintucket (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe the best practice is to follow the most common English name for them, so it should be Misrata and not Misratah, Tripoli and not Tarabulus etc...--Rafy (talk) 21:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
We tend to get more anglicized spellings (no al or ta marbuta) with cities that are in the news a lot, and more literal transliterations with towns that are not in the news a lot. A bit more consistency on our part would be nice. Kwamikagami (talk) 14:33, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Which would explain how one city seemed to go from being Al-Zawiyah when it rose up, to Azawiyah when it was crushed, to plain-old Zawiya when the rebels retook it. --Quintucket (talk) 15:55, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, familiar things tend to be given accessible names. It's 'Mizda' on the BBC map, BTW. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Sabha's size

From what I understand Sabha is actually somewhat larger than Tobruk yet the size of the dots on the maps seems to suggest Tobruk is larger.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

The sizes are pretty precisely determined; see here for details. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:46, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Obviously the city sizes are not all precise given that Zawiya is shown to be the size of Bani Walid, despite being six times larger in population. Sabha definitely has a larger population than Tobruk, yet is definitely shown to be smaller on the map.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:39, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Did you read the linked discussion? City sizes were based on this website. If you have a different source you'd like to share, please do so. --Quintucket (talk) 20:24, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Sirte -> siege?

So we know that the rebels have pretty much blocked off the coastal roads to Sirte. This BBC article says that they have "encircled" Sirte, and that they've "staked out the approach from the south." Shall we give it a blue ring? --Quintucket (talk) 16:00, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

No fighting there yet. Kwamikagami (talk) 19:47, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
A siege doesn't have to be fighting. At this point, it appears that they've cut Sirte off completely, and are waiting for the loyalists to make their move. --Quintucket (talk) 20:14, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
But that's not what the blue circle means. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
As I understand it, blue means the city is contested or unclear blue circle means it's clearly held by one side, but under siege. Rebels have surrounded Sirte and they've cut off water and electricity. And I believe NATO's been bombing it as well. --Quintucket (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Road to Hun remains in G hands. Also they are still not there and its still possible that Sirte will surrender. We´ll cross that bridge when we get there. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Do you have a source for that? --Quintucket (talk) 21:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)
Do you have a source which states otherwise? --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:29, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
I posted two above.[11][12] I'm sure I could find more, but I figured the Christian Science Monitor and BBC were fairly reliable sources. --Quintucket (talk) 18:05, 2 September 2011 (UTC)


Meant to post this hours ago. BBC map[13] shows Misda in rebel hands. Kwamikagami (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

BBC map generally suck. So do Sky News maps which showed few days ago Zwara as loyalist controlled. Lets focus on articles which will confirm or deny things rather than these maps. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Help requested with English pronunciations

If anyone here is familiar with conventional English pronunciations for the southern desert towns, could they help me out? Sabha may be in the news soon, and it's a difficult spelling for those who don't know Arabic. I expect it would be /sɑːbˈhɑː/ or /səbˈhɑː/ but can't be sure: maybe /ˈsɑːb.hɑː/? And the smaller towns + Ghadames if you've heard them in the news. (I mean news by reporters who have some idea what they're doing, and aren't reading an unfamiliar name off a cue card.) Kwamikagami (talk) 22:33, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with that. American comedian Seth Meyers once said on the NBC program Saturday Night Live that, before the rebels kill Gadaffi, they should ask him if he prefers his name spelled with a G, a K, or a Q on his grave marker. Fortguy (talk) 21:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid

First claims that Bani Walid has been surrendered peacefully pop up [14] Elllit (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Change to blue until we get proof one way or the other? -Kudzu1 (talk) 14:43, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
Nah, it's just too fishy for now. I just wanted to point it out. Elllit (talk) 15:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Change it to blue, the Guardian is reporting that there was a local uprising and Gadaffi forces have fled:

FF will not move into the city before tomorrow. See [15] Elllit (talk) 17:08, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
This is like the case in Tripoli, the locals rose up before the FF attacked. 23:22, 3 September 2011 (UTC)
The rebels are a few miles away from Bani Walid but are approaching on three sides.
I think it should be blue. It is possible that when the rebels reach the city, they may find nobody to fight against. So, if the guardian report is true, neither the NTC nor Gadaffi holds the city, but the inhabitants would be welcome to the NTC, so it should be blue. 21:16, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Jalil Says "Al Jofra" Still Gadafi

Al Jazeera English at 20:44 3 Sept (Al Jazeera time) has video of Jalil in which he refers to 3 places being under the one week ultimatum.

Sabha and Sirt we know about.

Does Jalil's "Al Jofra" = the file's "Al Jawf"? If so then it *isn't* rebel-held.

No, they're talking about another district, where Hun is. I made the same mistake.

For the last time Al Jofra≠ Al Jawf however the following are the same or near each other Al Jawf=Kufra, Jalu=Awjilah, Al Jofra=Hun, Mssallta=Al qusbat,

 MonteMiz (talk) 23:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I see it now on Google maps. "Al Jufrah air base" 5km NE of Hun.

NATO bombed Waddan again yesterday. We might want to put it on the map, if it isn't too close to Hun to make that practical. Kwamikagami (talk) 14:36, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


Okay, this one's a new one for me, when I Googled it, it seemed to come up in conjunction with `Ayn al Ghazaya, there seemed to be a Scout camp there once, now a Gaddafi area, forested. But as to maps, coordinates, location, bag-of-nothing. Anyone?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 16:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Im sorry but what? Ghazaya held a military camp which was captured by rebels in July. --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:20, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Ghazaya I can find, I need to find where Joudaim is.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:59, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Can it be this? Just NE of Zawiyah, noted during the push of FF on their way to "27km" crossing, before entering Tripoli. Note the different transcription.--Paracel63 (talk) 15:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
I think that's it, thank you!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Alternate languages at Template:Libyan uprising

I added a description field to Template:Libyan uprising a few days ago, but no one has added in any alternate languages to date. I call out to regular readers of this page to add in their own language. If you have any problems, just post it on the template talk page; I'm sure someone will add it in for you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:38, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Correcting font

Can someone correct the font to match the text on Inkscape? Thanks. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 03:05, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


There is a mistake on map. Adiri is just another name for Awbari. Real Adiri name is Al-Biraq, recently captured by NLA. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:08, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Source? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Google Maps, wikimapia and all other maps. Just check it out. --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Source for the capture? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Scratch capture, I misread al-Birag airbase with al-Birag city. Anyway, name of the city (and name in the article), together with its position is wrong. --EllsworthSK (talk) 19:55, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Sirte blue?

Al jazeera reports that troops from Misrata entered from the western and southern end. Should Sirte go blue or should we wait ? Seektrue (talk) 20:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Reuters reports the same thing (although not verified, just claim of military spokesman). Therefore situation is unclear, chaing it to blue. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
I would say we wait for a few more hours, it seems the unclear part is whether or not they reached the gates, not whether they entered the cities Seektrue (talk) 20:30, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Blue colour = unclear situation. And quoting from this [16] "They have now entered the city. There was a coordinated push from the south, east and west and from along the coast. I'm not sure how far they have been able to enter," NTC military spokesman Abdulrahman Busin told Reuters.. Blue doesnt mean they entered the city but that situation as of now is unclear. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:33, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

rebels claim to have captured the city center now, so I think Blue does it Seektrue (talk) 22:00, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Sirte to rebels ?

Per this Guardian article, [17]...--S Larctia (talk) 08:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Heavy fighting ongoing, article also doesnt claim that Sirte has fallen and since than new information came to light. --EllsworthSK (talk) 12:33, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Not yet, I guess, and Sirte is neither totally FF controlled nor secured. But Hun is obviously in the hand of local FF, but surrounded by GF. There are videos from Hun While official press reports missing, maybe blue for unclear situation? But there are big military facilities outside the town, and these are for sure held by GF and regulary attacked by NATO 19:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Retreat? It appears the assault on Bani Walid has not done as well as expected; should the map be altered to reflect this? LacsiraxAriscal (talk) 19:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I've put it in charge of pro-Gaddafi forces. Despite what anyone has said on this talk page in the recent past (or not said; I haven't read closely), it has been our practice since the blue lines were introduced that they indicate that a group has control only of small parts of the city (e.g., the outskirts) or is in siege of it. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Also: damnit, who introduced the small cities which we will have trouble keeping track of? Pardon my harsh language, but we've gone over this ad nauseum. I hope that whoever introduced them is planning on paying actively close attention to them; only then will there be no problem. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
What small cities? al-Briq is administrative center of Wadi al-Shati district and that is the only one I added. If you´re asking about Waddan it wasn´t me. Not even mentioning that in Tripolitania we have on map villages like Wazzin, Ras Idjir or small towns like Tarhouna or Mizdah (and on east Bin Jawwad fe). As for al-Briq I´m following reports of CNN Ben Welderman who confirmed that it has fallen together with whole district (what is in fact 8 towns) but because he didnt mention names of towns he passed through I added only blue circle to Adiri. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:35, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Watch the video. The town of Birak is not secured. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Thats from yesterday, according to this it is. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid is combatted and not besieged. All retreats refer just to the old town where ~1000 GF digged in with heavy artillery, the Northern part and the valley are still held by FF and there is no single source indicating otherwise. And it isn't of relevance if a side holds 20%, 35% or 60% for painting a city blue. To understand what happens there you have to know the geography of BW, suburbs reaching wide in the flat desert area while the old city lies on a hill with a valley surrounding it to the north side. Actually the FF are holding the valley and most of the suburbs, while any try to reach the old town on the hill failed, with digged in GF defening it with artillery and even burning oil. A bit of this reflects this article 18:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Here is a video of the CNN report of today night of the situation in Sirte and Bani Walid. The producer says the situation is very much the same in both cities. 05:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Another RS about new combats in Bani Walid. I think until clear decision for the contested city, it should stay blue and not every message of attacks and retreats, which we will probably see in the next days / weeks shoud force to repaint the map there. Basically BW is contested with the FF occupying the northern parts and the valley and the GF digged in firmly in the old town. 15:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Southern front revisited

Do we actually have any RS on those towns around Sabha reportedly under rebel control? If not then they should be either blue or removed altogether.--Rafy (talk) 12:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that at this point in the war the old "No news from desert = rebels lost control" logic holds true.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:14, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Especially because both towns are inhabited by the Tebou, who have been very anti-Qaddadi from the start. If anything, I'd suspect that the rebels quietly retook Tebou-inhabited Qatrun, and the news was lost in the chaotic fall of the State of the Masses. (Incidentally, can anybody read this? My Arabic is nowhere near good enough. Nor is Google Translate). --Quintucket (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
"Afghan Arabs controlled an important road linking Oueinat (close to Kufra) with Ghat" Source is an Algerian newspaper which makes it dubious.--Rafy (talk) 18:33, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Ahh, thanks. It's a bit confusing too. "Afghan Arabs"? --Quintucket (talk) 22:08, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Afghanistan Mujahedeen veterans.--Rafy (talk) 08:38, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Aren´t Algerian newspaper generally anti-rebel oriented? -- 13:45, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

And once again I will repeat my position that we never should have included them in the first place. We already removed them once; why the hell are we including them again? Just remove them - for the same reason as last time. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

You know Murzuq is both larger than Qatrun (68 vs 4.5 k), and the capital of the district, right? I'm not sure why we included Qatrun and not Murzuq initially. --Quintucket (talk) 11:36, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
You have a point here, Qatrun should be removed.--Rafy (talk) 11:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Agree. But where are the 68k numbers from? As the total population of the district in 2006 seems to have been only 78,000, that seems as a somewhat bold statement. According to, it had some 10,000 in 1984, but it's true it may have grown quite considerably since then.--Paracel63 (talk) 13:02, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I got the number from Wikipedia, which in turn used Der Spiegel. I see though that Rafy has corrected it to a more accurate 12k with a more reliable source.
On another note, I still think that we should keep Murzuq red. We made a similar assumption about Msallata on the Tripoli front map, which proved to be wrong. The general collapse of Qaddafi forces means that the no news argument could also be applied to say that any land not in the four areas named as loyalist controlled (Bani Walid, Sirte, Sabha, and Jofra) could be assumed to be ambiguous. Certainly, given that Qaddafists celebrated the recapture of Qatrun, you'd expect them to make similar noises over the more important Murzuq. --Quintucket (talk) 00:46, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

However, it's still all speculation. It may be that Gaddafi has so little credibility at the moment that no one is reporting on his advances. We don't know. And it shouldn't remain. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:55, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that he can even make "advances" at this juncture. Maybe a few counterattacks from bastions like Sirte and Bani Walid, but actual advances? That'd be suicidal. Loyalists aren't going to risk stretching the remains of their forces and leave cities unguarded to seize some useless cluster of shacks in the desert. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

There are pictures from Sabha neighborhoods now in FF hand, this is one of several examples, though I don't understand Arabic. . But in general FF claim that they control most of the South now 16:12, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Obviously fierce clashes in and for Sabha 16:39, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

After reading this piece by The Guardian, I'm inclined to make all the desert towns except for Sabha, Hun, and Sirte blue. The article specifically discussed Ghat, but gave no indication that it was under Gaddafist control; rather, it gave the impression that nobody really controls it or any other town in Fezzan aside from the known loyalist strongholds. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:52, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

We should make all southern towns green with blue ring (including Sabha, because there is fighting there) until further news comes out. 02:19, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

No, we shouldn't. Ring = siege, as has been well established before on this talkpage. The source that I provided says that the desert towns in Fezzan are basically no-man's-land – unclear control. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:16, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I've heard rebel claims that Sabha is surrounded, but I've not seen any confirmation. However, CNN is reporting rebel claims that Waddan has risen up and is being shelled from Hun; variations of this have been in the news for several days, so I added it to the map in blue. Kwamikagami (talk) 04:41, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

If some place is held by nobody, why should we keep the green point ? Blue point also encompasses unclear situation, besides fighting ongoing, so maybe it would be a better choice. Anyway, the situation is surely unclear with ongoing fights at Al Qatrun and Murzuq, Al Ghat was reported to be in FF hands, but later news stated the opposite, the "calmest" place seems to be the oasis of Awbari where Ghaddafi is said to have another hideout in the desert but nobody seems very interested to fight for it (at least for now). 15:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)


I found a source that says Gadhafi still holds Kufrah/Al Jawf: [18] 16:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thats Jufra. Bagoons from AJE spelled it out wrong. That town they have taken is here. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:05, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
^beat me to it... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

This is at least the 3rd time someone has made this mistake, perhaps we should make some not about itMonteMiz (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Waddan, Sabha, & Sirte

I added Waddan (in blue), since it's been in the news for several days, and many of the reports present it as if it were a southern suburb of Sirte. Being shelled from Hun, however, so maybe brown with a blue ring would be more appropriate?

Bloomberg reported 10 days ago that Waddan was in NTC hands:
Really, it should be red at this point. 02:01, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Fighting in Sabha, so I added a blue ring.

Shouldn't we remove the blue ring from Sirte? Sure, supplies have been cut off, but there's no fighting, and no-one's shelling the city. Kwamikagami (talk) 04:53, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Ring = siege, not ongoing fighting. We've been over this dozens of times. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:54, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
I haven't seen those discussions.
Is the ring inappropriate for Sabha, then? Should we leave it green, or make it blue to reflect ongoing fighting? Kwamikagami (talk) 05:01, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
There are reports of Heavy fighting inside Sirte, like this one, so I would make Sirte blue -- Vectrex 14:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
"Around" doesn't mean "in". Kwamikagami (talk) 01:10, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Jufra[19] Kwamikagami (talk) 01:41, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Who removed the blue color in Sabha while there are even videos of fierce battles there and ff claim to control the city centre, but not all outskirts? Both battles and unclear situation would indicate a blue color? And there is enough RS reports of FF driving directly to Sabha instead Bani Walid. To judge this a "insurgent hit and run attack" is complete nonsense! Especially with reports of all but one neighbouring cities already under FF control. 17:52, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, yes. Sabha should be blue. —Nightstallion (?) 20:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Here is non-RS info from Twitter, but from somebody I consider very confident who says he has family there: "There is news from Sebha. Just two areas are free. Qurdha and Jedeed (Historic Sebha). Part of Menshia is too." 21:28, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Twitter has not been, and never will be, used as a source because it is highly unreliable. As far as these claims about taking the city center go those seem to be simple rebel propaganda. Re-runs of the 50 claims they took Brega, before they actualy took it. Where are these reports you are talking about 77.4...? Wikipedia is based on verifibility. Latest report from CNN [20] states that the rebels are still trying to surround Sabha, but haven't yet. The BBC also states as of today that Sabha is under firm loyalist control. Both BBC and CNN are reliable sources unlike Twitter and the rebels themselves. Please, if there are reliable sources that confirm that there is fighting for the town than we can set it is as green with blue ring, but at this point there are no reliable sources that confirm this. All independent media state every day that the town is under loyalist control, nothing about partial control. EkoGraf (talk) 01:15, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, you are right that a wiki shouldn't be painted for twitter sources, no doubt. But there is enough RS that both reported of heavy clashes in Sabha and also of 100-150 FF vehicles that drove directly to Sabha to reinforce local FF there. And neither CNN nor any other RS media has clear informations, so officially you can only say that the situation is unclear. And that is blue afaik.
Also, it is plainly wrong that good twitter sources claimed FF propaganda on twitter regarding Brega. Brega was unsettled and so there were no local good twitter sources at all, and all wrong info was from mainstream media. If you observe the twitter sources well and longer, you'll find the same and same spammers delivering no information at all, but very cheap and obvious claims. And you find the always same sources from bigger cities, don't forget, many people live there. And you get detailled infos of them which quarters are in combat, which are held by FF and where GF massed. And during the months of the conflict, I found not a single one of these wrong. But they are only a few and almost obsured by twitter spam, and they only speak when their city is hit by combats. And here are way more people who are interested what is happening, besides this more or less "stupid" map, so they are interested in this and for them they should be posted. For example the town of Awbari, of course is there a green spot on the map, and there is no RS about it at all. But if you observe the tweets from local people, it is so obvious (I would say, there is no doubt anymore) that the oasis is in fact strongly "red". Here is a good map of the Sabha area: I doubt CNN even knows of any other town but Sabha.
Observing and being interested in that revolution is more than collecting RS for this map. And be sure, it is not too difficult to identify the few good tweets under all the twitter spammers. 03:09, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
And here is some of the RS sources:
Reuters speaking of the 100-150 FF vehicles heading to Sabha on Friday
Several RS media speaking of fierce battles in Sabha, like AJE ... and your quoted CNN source says nothing at all
We also can talk if Free Libya TV (Bengashi based, in arab Alhurra TV) is a RS media, they have delivered very accurate information yet, but they are clearly a FF biased TV station 03:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
The Vancouver Sun article is dated to June 12. You should check your sources more carefully. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:39, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, already did exchange it to AJE 03:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Your source [21] says the rebel vehicles were heading toward Sabha, not that they got to it. There is hundreds of milles of enemy territory to cross and conquer before they get there. The CNN source, which you said doesn't talk anything about Sabha, stated and I quote, Opposition fighters were working to surround the loyalist stronghold of Sabha, some 400 miles south of Sirte. So read more carefully. We decided months ago we are not going to use rebel media sources like Free Libya TV because they are not 100 percent reliable because they are biased. Also, Wikipedia does not use twitter sources under any circumstances because they are not reliable sources. And here are more sources that clearly state Sabha is firmly loyalist-held and I will quote them for you The decision to retreat from Bani Walid also upset the timetable for taking control of Sirte, Gadhafi's hometown, and Sabha, a loyalist-held city deep in Libya's southern desert[22] Anti-Gaddafi troops now control most of Libya, including the capital Tripoli. Loyalists are holding out in at least three towns, including Bani Walid and Sirte.[23] (guess which is the third one) Forces loyal to Gaddafi continue to hold out in Sirte, Bani Walid, south east of Tripoli, and Sabha in the southern desert.[24] I can continue but not going to flood the discussion page now since this is not a forum. So unless you have an independent media source that clearly states Sabha is under full attack in a bid to capture it the town stays green. EkoGraf (talk) 15:14, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

While there are only few sources for the South, can anybody confirm this situation map there: 11:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC) Libyan NTC spokesman is saying there is feirce fighting going on in Sabha right now and that the airport and nearby fort have been taken by NTC forces. The map shouls be updated to reflect this. 02:32, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Sirte, green with blue circle

Could you please change the map of Libya, I don't know how. As is the case of Bani Walid, Sirte should be green with a blue circle, because one rebel fighter returning from the front yesterday night said that previous reports of the airports capture are inacurate because they lost control of it soon after and he said they control less than 5 percent of the city. And based on all the recent reports coming out from there the opposition forces seem to be only still in the outskirts of the city. Here is the source [25]. Also, a few more sources [26][27] confirming they are still in the city's outskirts or have totaly withdrew even from them after failled incursions. All along during the battle for Misrata, even though loyalists controled half the city while the rebels controled the other half, the city was red with a blue circle, not totaly blue. This is the same case. And since the rebels seem to only barely control the airport (or may not control at all), which is 10 kilometers from the city proper, I think it deserves to be just green with a blue circle. EkoGraf (talk)

Control != Combat, and it is cleartly stated that rebels hold by day big portions of Sirte and BW, but at night time they draw back again because there is no electricity and light and if not, GF will have the big advantage of knowing the environment even in the dark. Several times FF commanders explained that.
And for Misrata, in my eyes that was wrong and not according the usual standards here. As it was wrong for Msallata, where rebels hold <20% of the city but it was red. 03:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)