File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 7

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Sabha to Blue

FF have just captured the airport and are battling for Sebha. As far as i know, Hun/Jufra and Waddan are still in Ghaddafi's hands, but FF are nearby and captured some villages. Now, we have an important front in the south, i suggest to add a southern map front and re-add Al Qatrun. All small villages still in Ghaddafi's hands should be added to see the situation before the total victory of FF. 15:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

A southern front map was discussed before, and we decided against it because info doesn't travel well though the desert. 01:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

A southern map is not good, because there is not enough information, also just a few oasis towns and a vast amount of desert which in fact is neither red nor green. For Sabha, is is definately under siege. But no information says that it is more rebel held than BW or Sirte. 03:04, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

So why is still kept green despite the siege and the airport in the hands of FF ? 04:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

NTC assault on Sabha

According to AJE, NTC forces have launched a serious attack into Sabha: 1 2. It should be made fully blue. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:18, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Also, I never heard about Murzuq being contested, and I don't think it would be a focus of Gadhafi forces right now as they have bigger problems up north, so I say we change it back to red. 23:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I think Murzuq was made blue on the grossly outdated assumption that no news from rebel-captured desert town = likely Gaddafist recapture. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, indeed. -- 18:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Concur. Last news from Murzuq was that it was held by the NTC. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Murzuq was made blue based on contrasting news. It has been attacked by Ghaddafi's forces about 10 days ago and no further news later. I am telling from sources from Twitter, i know for Wikipedia are not good enough, but when there is nothing better, at least they should be considered, at least from the users based on the spot who are being giving reliable information.Murkuq, Ghat and Qatrun might become important for Ghaddafi again in case Beni Walid, Sirte and Sebha fall, because he and the rest of his family, plus Moussa Imbrahim and Senoussi might try to escape towards Chad or Algeria. 04:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

It was made blue because Toubou claims about its capture were not verified. Also Im following @bencnn who is in Fezzan with NLA forces and till this day he never mentioned hearing anything about NTC having under control Murzuq from which they could attack Sabbha. Also we know that Toubou are on borders with Chad, that was confirmed by Tuareg mercs which fled to Niger but they do not control Nigerien borders (it Tummu border crossing) or have significant presence in Murzuq sand sea. --EllsworthSK (talk) 09:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Our friend Ben is not in southern Fezzan, but rather northern Fezzan. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
True, but he travels with brigade that is tasked with taking control of Fezzan. One would think that commanders of that brigade would tell him if they had a sizeable force in Murzuq. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:25, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

So, leave it blue (unclear situation) until further news are available,same for Al Qatrun. Now from Al Hayat current news are FF took control of Obari (Awbari) and are also entering Hun. I don't know the reliability of Al Hayat and i have to ask another Twitter user to translate it from Arabic, so I ask you to try to re-check the genuinity of this news. Ghaddafi forces are controlling Ghat (confirmed as today 20 Sep.) and the village of Ghoddua. 10:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC) It seems (from LibyaNewMedia) FF are entering Hun, after they have taken over Waddan,Suknah and Zillah.Currently besieging Al Jufra. 10:41, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Several non-RS sources say Awbari is controlled by FF. And no RS is available for Awbari for weeks. So status is probably red, but lacking proper confirmation it should be blue = uncertain 10:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Nay, no RS says anything about Awbari, so it stays for the time beeing as it is. When situation will change we will change the map accordingly to it. Also NTC troops surged into Sabha, taking city center without a fight. Id change it to blue myself but I can do it only when I return from work. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Ben confirms Sabha taken. Zenithfel (talk) 15:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Footage of ben driving into Sabha: A update from inside Sabha:
CNN's article:

CNN reporters confirm capture of Sabha, little resistance reported. [1] Definitely should be in red now. Seleucus (talk) 16:20, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, here is the live footage on CNN, and CNN's Ben Wedermann is in the city center of Sabha 18:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Why does it take so long to update the status of Sabha? This city should be shown blue, at least for the next 24 hours. It is amply clear that NTC forces control a good portion of the city. The coming hours will confirm the extent of their control and the strength of any remaining Gaddafi troops.

No, Sebha should now definately be red, see above!

News from Murzuq are contrasting. I suggest to leave it blue. 17:15, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Since we never had any evidence that Murzaq was captured (only a Qaddafist attack), I absolutely disagree. It should be red. -- 18:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Possibly the most detailled map yet, on the 17Feb revolution central Time of the map was before the attack on Sebha was finished and said successful on CNN. Especially the situation in the South is interesting! 18:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Feb17 isn't always reliable (so we can't really use it as a source for here), but it's indeed an interesting map! Thanks for sharing. 18:22, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
At least they admit some contested cities are still under Qaddafi control so I wouldn't call it unreliable (not like the good ol' "We Liberated Brega/Zlitan, and we'll do it another 4 times today")Vectrex 18:54, 20 september 2011 (UTC)
Still its no RS source, but Feb17 delivered never this kind of "we liberated..." information, and it is no official NTC or NLA site but sort of a platform to collect credible sources. Since that site appeared on my radar, it never delivered faulty informations, in opposite often better and more precise informations than CNN or Reuters. And that map seems up to date and fits all the other sources available.
Something else: there is videos showing FF reaching Hun. No doubt, these are FF technicals and it is Hun. So a red dot in Hun is appropriate I think. 19:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Youtube is not RS either. To sum it up - Murzuq will remain blue, no independent confirmation about its takeover by NTC forces, Hun - blue for the same reason, Sabha - blue as well since fighting is still ongoing, Adiri - green, no RS reported anything about it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Adiri is red. There were reports saying that region is in hands of Rebels. They didn`t mention Adiri, but it was included (is`t like saying that Massachusets is in hand of one faction, so Boston, althought it`s not mentioned, is in hands of that faction). --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:23, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
CNN clearly reported that whole Shati region - ie district is in control of NTC. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
And btw when whole Massachusetts state will be just pile of desert with 8 towns concetrated on one road than we it will be good comparision. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
That's pure speculation. A reliable source says the district is under NTC control, so we should show it as being under NTC control. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:48, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

CNN's Ben Wedeman is reporting from Sabha on Twitter on the current situation: "Scattered pockets of resistance, mostly in the Manshiya district. Fires in various parts of town. Occasional gunfire." [2] Let's keep it blue for now, but it will probably turn red within a day or two. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:57, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Al Qatrun, Hun, Sukna, Murzuq

Few scattered Twitter (no better news for now, but still some clues to be taken into account) regarding Al Qatrun: the town is taken half by FF and half by loyalist. So, fighting are ongoing. Some news from Hun: the town has been attacked and shelled by loyalist , who were apparently based at Sukna. Sukna has been reported as liberated by FF 2 days ago, which looks a contradiction to today's event, last news from 2 hours ago reports again Sukna now under FF control. So, situation still unclear there. Keep the blue or red with blue point. 16:05, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Places still under Loyalist control

1-Sirte (fighting ongoing) 2-Bani Walid (fighting ongoing) 3-Ghat 4-Ghoddua (fighting ongoing) 5-Sardelas 6-Tahala 7-Qasr Abu Hadi 8-Wadi Hayat (fighting ongoing)

Uncertain situation in Murzuq and Al Qatrun.

Hun/Jufra,Waddan and Awbari should be made red. Source: On spot twitterers. I know this is not a valid source, but in exchange of better sources (which cannot be everywhere in the desert country) it worths rely on locals ,specially the ones who has been providing reliable information throughout the conflict in their channels. 07:09, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

CNN has a correspondant in Fezzan, so there should be more reliable information forthcoming. Until then.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
If those twitter accounts are accounts of journalists on the ground like currently Ben Wedeman I have no problem editing the map. But if those are some unknown users which claim to have family, relatives or simply some info from there it is not good enough. --EllsworthSK (talk) 09:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I think we can say Sabha is red, and Murzuq to. CNN reported from inside Sabha, and the city has clearly fallen. Also, that should mean that Murzuq is red, because loyalists would fight from the south into Sabha if it wasn't. That leaves Hun and Waddan is a strange position: we know NTC forcess are north AND south of the towns, so it seems likely to me the've fallen. Also CCN said only Sirte and Bani Walid are in loyalist hands (although I think Ghat and Awbari are also).

There is still fighting in Sabha. According to Reuters, the NTC said that "(they) control most of Sabha apart from the al-Manshiya district. This is still resisting, but it will fall" So in that district of Sahba, the battle is still ongoning. -- 13:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Waddan is free per ; Hun and Awbari have been claimed to be liberated on Twitter, but I haven't seen sources for that (yet). —Nightstallion (?) 13:19, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

there are 2 reasons while we haven't seen sources yet 1-Awbari is very isolated and far and it 's not easy to reach it for a journalist now, moreover it's not strategically fundamental 2-Hun might be coz there are pockets of fightings around and it's still unsafe to get there. Anyway, situation is changing fast in favour of FF. Ghaddafi's few stronholds are all virtually surrounded, Ghat is the only place where the regime loyalist can find a way to escape . No news from Al Qatrun for long time,not even on Twitter,but with FF advancing in the south the situation should become clearer in the next few days. 14:19, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually, there are a couple of videos in Youtube where FF flags supposed in Awbari and Qatrun. But only a local people or someonw who knows those villages well can confirm they are really Awbari and Qatrun. For Awbari the point in favour can be local fighters helped liberating nearby villages and some of them pushed towards Sebha helping FF from the north and local Sebha FF. 15:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I found this article discussing fighting south of Sabha. Still unclear whether Murzuq is with Gaddafi or the NTC, but there's fighting near there, at Traghan, per Mo Wardougou: [3] - 18:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, article en:Fezzan campaign was updated according to this, I also put Hun under NTC control and under attack per this. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
But the source doesn't say anything about the town being controlled by NTC fighters.--Rafy (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Damn it, wrong source. This is the correct one. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
According to this, Hun/Jufra has fallen to the rebels. I have adjusted the table below to reflect this. Can someone change the map?
No. As they say, "His comments could not be confirmed independently". But I will make Awbori blue. Kwamikagami (talk) 05:42, 22 September 2011 (UTC)


I have created a relatively simple table that should help track control of towns. You can add more towns and sources eventually. If it's too complicated to use just delete it.

Town Sources
S1 Description
S2 Description
Bani Walid
[4] both sides exchange rockets 19 sep
[5] G still controls checkpoints around the town 21 sep
[6] NTC control 70% of Sabha 20 sep
[7] Falls to NTC 21 sep
[8] G shelling Hun 21 sep
[9] Hun falls to Rebels 21 sep
[10] whole of Al Jufra district under NTC control 22 Sep
S1 Description
S2 Description
S1 Description
S2 Description
[11] Waddan is freed, only small pockets of resistance
S2 Description
[12] whole of Al Jufra district under NTC control 22 Sep
S1 Description
S2 Description
S1 Description
S2 Description
S1 Description
S2 Description

This article states that "Col. Ahmed Omar Bani, a council military spokesman, said Wednesday that anti-Qaddafi forces had captured Waddan, Hun and Sukna, towns in the Jufrah oasis area about 120 miles south of Surt. Council fighters also captured Awbari, a Tuareg town deep in Libya’s south, Colonel Bani said. Those assertions could not be confirmed." Just saying - ArnoldPlaton (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

For future reference Id like to point out this NATO map which shows whole Fezzan but Ghat district under NTC control. Its from today briefing by gen. Charles Bouchard. --EllsworthSK (talk) 11:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

It was also confirmed by LtGen Bouchard on press conference. Its on 15:00. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:46, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
How are you reading that into Ghat? NATO says there are only three pockets of resistance, the 3rd being Fuqaha. But Fuqaha is only a fraction of the size of Ghat. If it's questionable, should we have it blue? Kwamikagami (talk) 21:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
NATO just pointed three areas where considerable Gaddafi military forces are gathered and if you look at PDF in link you´ll find Ghat and that other city north of it in other colour. Besides even Ben Wedeman confirmed that Ghat is under G control so Im reverting it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:33, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay. Also, there's a contested city in the SE, but not one we've been showing. Kwamikagami (talk) 11:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Where? In the last slide, there's no such city …? —Nightstallion (?) 12:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Also, it says that Murzuq is under NTC control. So perhaps we should change it to red? 18:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Murzuq and al-Qatrun liberated?

According to this source, Al Qatrun,Murzuq,Waw,Aloyg,Tom and Alandeja all under FF control now. 13:30, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

I suspect I am not the only person on this talk page who doesn't read Arabic. Could you please provide an English source, or a copy of the small section in Arabic with a translation? E.g.
  • "The relevant sentence(s) in Arabic"
  • Its English translation
Thanks, 14:19, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Google Translate.—Emil J. 16:08, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Ghat liberated?!/sharon_lynch According to on spot freelancer Sharon Lynch. I know maybe the source may be not good enough, but she has been covering very well in the past weeks . So, let's stay pending for more "official" confirmation of this: Ghat and its airport liberated and the FF flag waving. No confirmation yet of liberation of nearby villages Sardalas and Tahala and on the map are with a blue point: 07:10, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Please read my note to you in the above section on making section headings. It's getting to be a serial problem now. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)


Yes,the whole Ghat-district has been stormed without major resistance last night and this morning from North and south. Gaddafi troops surrendered or fled to Algeria. Town of Ghat taken without fighting!

Matan-As-Sarrah was already taken some weeks ago,guys 08:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, do you even listen to what other people say to you here? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:36, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Excuse me but I echo Lothar's reply here. Twitter is not considered a reliable source. Even if Twitter is to be considered as a credible source (which it isn't) then we might as well take notice of many other sources from Twitter which claim Gaddafi to be in firm control of the majority of the country... AlphaBravoCharlie (talk) 09:06, 26 September 2011 (UTC)


Al-Arabiya just showed live-pictures from the small town of Ghat! Rebel-flags everywhere,town under rebel-control after minor clashes.The whole district of Ghat coming under NTC-control in these hours.Few Gaddafi-remnants fled to Algeria or surrendered. 09:18, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Somebody doesn't understand the concept of neutrality. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ghat to blue per this source: "Fighting has moved on to the border town of Ghat, leaving virtually all the south of Libya, with its important oilfields, in the hands of the rebels." ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:11, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I understand very well the concept of neautrality, you are the one who is only insulting other people because you cannot stand to get the news after others. I HAVE CLEARLY STATED TO WAIT FOR AN OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION AND STAY PENDING BEFORE CHANGE THE MAP. You didn t even read my message. If you keep insulting other users i will report you ,ok ? You are not God here.Stop insulting others , the serial problem is your insults to other users. 14:16, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Cool your jets, man. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Next time someone will enter rant mode here because of twitter reports and demand something based on them puppy will die. I promise. Also Im chaning Ghat to blue per Lothar source. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:59, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

And since many have forgotten. This is not a discussion board, this is not a news agency. If you want post here something it better be something of a value. Twitter reports are no such thing. This is for discussion about improvement of image, adding sources which can´t be used in it is worthless. Keep that in mind once and for all. Thanks. --EllsworthSK (talk) 15:13, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Actually EllsworthSK is wrong. Every time someone SHOUTS IN CAPS, or paints anybody disagreeing with an update in favor of FF as stupid and pro-Gaddafi, God kills a puppy. If someone does both, then two puppies die. Face-sad.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:54, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Ghadames attacked

Ghadames has been attacked early this morning by loyalists.Clashes are still under way. Red point with blue circle ? 12:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The Gaddafi-troops,who attacked Ghadames,came from Ghat and Algeria! This shows,that Ghat is still under Gaddafi´s control. It also shows,that the war is not yet over.Now we have five fronts in Libya: Sirte,Bani Walid,Ghadames,Ghat and Fuqaha!! 13:12, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Calm down. It was just a raid, like the one in Ra's Lanuf a while back. We already knew that Ghat was under loyalist control; you're not sharing any new information with us there. Ghadames stays as it is unless loyalists actually mount a real offensive against it, which would be just plain dumb. Also, making a new section isn't hard. It's not "lol imma put some equals signs and words in ALL CAPS that makes a title right?" Two equals signs, a descriptive and calm title, then two more equals signs. Not rocket science. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:25, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


It´s confirmed by the NTC,that the whole Murzuq-district,including the town of Murzuq,are now under rebel-control. Concerning Ghadames it was a surprise-attack from two sides. Up to 30 cars with Gaddafi-troops went north from Ghat and shortly before they reached Ghadames they split into two groups. One group attacked the town from the south,the second one crossed over to Algeria and attacked Ghadames from the west. After several hours the combat went down and the Gaddafi-troops returned southwards towards the Ghat-district.

At the moment the pockets of Sirte,Bani Walid and Al-Fuqaha as well as the whole Ghat-district are under Gaddafi´s control. It seems,that the NTC must attack Ghat not only from the East,but also from Ghadames in the North. This would be senseful!! 15:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, unfortunately we are not the central strategic command for the NTC. We just make maps for Wikipedia based on reliable sources. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

There is also Matan As Sarra under Ghaddafi's control. Would you mind to add it to the main map , although it's a small village it's still one of the few (5 actually) places still under loyalists' control: Beni Walid, Sirte, Fuqaha, Ghat (and neighbour Sardalas and Tahala) and Matan As Sarra. 18:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I just spoke with a libyan friend and he told me,that Matan-As-Sarra including the famous airbase were already taken be the rebels two weeks ago. He also told me,that Fuqaha was taken yesterday. According to his sources in Libya only Sirte,Bani Walid and the whole Ghat-district are under Gaddafi´s control. He said,that so far not a single rebel has entered the Ghat-district.Gaddafi´s troops control a long line of territory stretching from Ghat to a village south of Ghadames! 19:37, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

That's nice. Now if you could source that to an actual reliable source, then we could add it to the map. Otherwise, stop bothering us with hearsay and rumours. We're not going to include any of them. Ever. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Lothar, besides, our friend with 79.233 has also been giving contradictory information, stating before Ghat had been liberated, which is not true. From some "unofficial" but quite reliable Twitter sources (on spot freelancers) there are no indications yet Fuqaha was liberated and regarding Matan As Sarra the last news is nobody have still been there because its isolated position. BTW, FF retreated again from Sirte, maybe we should change it with green with blue circle . 07:01, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Just a heads up, rebels just claimed Gaddhafi is hiding out near Ghadames, protected by Tuareg fighters. Just rebel claims, but the implication is that the rebels are no longer in full control of Ghadames? Either Gaddhafi is hiding out right next to a rebel-controlled/conflicted town (unlikely), the rebels are lying about Gaddhafi's whereabouts (which recognize their precarious/lost hold on Ghadames) or Gaddhafi's Tuaregs came and took the town which seems the most likely due to his obvious ability to bring significant forces around with him. Nezzurazi (talk) 16:10, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll choose "none of the above". Ghadames is a small town in the middle of the freaking desert; "near Ghadames" covers a wide swath of land where anyone with a good knowledge of it (e.g. Tuaregs) could hide out indefinitely without posing any significant threat to the town. I was looking through some strategic maps of the area the other day, and there are innumerable places he could be hiding out "near Ghadames". In addition, I'd like to point out that your preferred assumption of "rebels lost the town" is completely unsupported. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:44, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Here's another source that may change your mind: "Muammar Gaddafi is believed to be hiding near the Algerian border in the town of Ghadamis, according to the Libyan official leading the hunt for the former Libyan dictator." Nezzurazi (talk) 17:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi himself may be holed up near the western town of Ghadames, near the Algerian border, under the protection of Tuareg tribesmen, a senior NTC military official said. [13] it was just a bad wording. After all, all sources states that Ghadamis was raided, not captured by pro-G forces. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Trying to capture and hold towns would be suicidal for loyalists. They would have no hope of controlling any significant population centre for any more than a few days. They will use guerilla tactics to induce fear, though; Tuaregs know the land and so can use locations in the middle of the desert as temporary bases and will be hard to hunt down. My personal observation, of course. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid

Shouldn't we make Bani Walid blue? I found this article that repots fierce fighting since this morning Here is the link Vectrex 26 September 2011, 15:25 (UTC)

I agree with this.Jeancey (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
That's called a siege. Blue ring. Kwamikagami (talk) 17:56, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
Our consensus currently states a blue ring for a siege, and the city/town doesn't turn to blue until there are significant parts (~5-10%) in the city itself that are controlled by the sieging partner. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
Rebels captured Fuqaha! I found this belgic site that tells Fuqaha has fallen (link) We should make it red [User:Vectrex|Vectrex]] 29 September 2011, 15:00 (UTC)
Makes sense, with all supply lines cut it was just a matter of time. Chaing it. EllsworthSK (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Strong POV against Gaddafi

There are news coming about fights in some of the cities painted brown, but I know that rebels just deny that. Ok. But even the rebels say that Gaddafi (still free and kicking) is in Ghadames! Why is it shown in rebel colors on the map?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyknos (talk • contribs) 04:28, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Re "news coming about fights": provide links to reliable sources or nothing happened.
Re Ghadames: see discussion here.
Also, please sign your posts. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:58, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
First of all sign your posts. Second - Ghadames raid has its own article. But it was just a raid and its over. So either provide some RS or let it be. EllsworthSK (talk) 08:44, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
That this map has been beset by individuals who are rooting for the opposition is in no doubt (hence loaded terms like "freedom fighters" and "loyalist," albeit possibly inherited from the also-biased Al-Jazeera). This has also led to optimism bias at times; however, some of us have worked hard to root this out, and it usually stays no more than a day or so.
As such, please demonstrate the bias inherent in the current version of this page, so that we don't repeat the error, but in reverse.
To quote Ellsworth: I swear to God, if one more person comes on this page to demand a change without a citation, God will kill a puppy. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
This blog (in Swedish, use Google Translate for a hunch of its quite political stance) has for the past seven months produced a lot of posts, written from a Russian, pro-Gaddhafi, "anti-Western" point of view. And sometimes these blog posts actually present facts also distributed by major media. Most often the info is of dubious quality, however, with sources hard to validate. One example of one such used source is this. This seems to be just another blog, but I'm not ruling out the authenticity of 100 % of these "news". There are talks of infighting in Misrata between NLA batallions, pro-Gaddhafi forces inside Tripoli, attack on a NATO ship, Tarhouna in Gaddhafi hands once more and other stuff. Glad to hear from you if you have heard any of this noted in any major news media. TIA.--Paracel63 (talk) 17:40, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that demanding major media means that pro-Gaddafi media are ruled out by definition. Strong and horrible POV. The good work would be just presenting what both sides say (using media of whatever size). Rebels are supported by major western media, but their info is not reliable at all, they were caught telling lies several times (just the number of deaths of some Gaddafi sons is against laws of physics; and the camel bones scandal...). --Kyknos (talk) 20:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry that this map isn't w:WP:TRUTHy enough for you. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:34, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Not only it is not TRUTHy (most probably, no one of us knows what is really happening there and all sides are using war propaganda), it is also strongly biased because it is based on data of only one of the warring sides. This shoould not happen here. --Kyknos (talk) 21:11, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
NPOV does not mean we treat all sides equally. Including loyalist claims with the same weight as rebel ones would be like regarding Holocaust deniers with the same credibility as sane people on a Holocaust article. No reliable source treats Gaddafi's camp with the same weight as the NTC, because journalists actually are allowed to move around on NTC territory. Sorry if you don't like that. That's just the way things are. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:28, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
Your comparision of Libyan loyalist with Holocaust deniers just shows your horrible bias and incompetence to handle this correctly :( Please read what NPOV means. --Kyknos (talk) 21:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
It's a perfectly valid comparison – nobody takes either of them seriously. I'm not trying to make claims of "humanity", which is what you seem to think I'm doing. Honestly, the only people outside the former regime that report them seriously are mostly Latin American/sub-Saharan/former Yugoslavia/former USSR radicals, not any sources that people with half a brain and a rudimentary understanding of WP policy would recognise as reliable. Please re-read w:WP:TRUTH: it's essentially what you are trying to push here. You need a better understanding of NPOV, not I. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:49, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
First of all, please assume good faith; accusing editors of bias/POV without clear evidence isn't going to help your cause. Second, as others above have already stated, please provide reliable sources that fighting is indeed occurring in NTC-held cities. Only then will we gladly make appropriate amends to the image file. --FineHourglass (talk) 23:27, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

What the new editor seems to be proposing is that we include the claims by Gaddafi's camp, because the media is too biased to report properly. If you look through the history of this page, and pay particularly close attention to posts by me, you'll see that I've personally fought unreliable media claims tooth and nail. We generally wait until we can be as clear about something as possible.

To the new editor: if you want to make a map based off claims solely by what either side is making, be our guest. And good luck with that, given that both sides routinely talk out of their ass and contradict themselves. But this map is based off reliable sources. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:20, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I really find these talks as nothing more than waste of our time. Wikipedia has established rules about reliable sources, no one here is denying Kyknos right to provide some alternative reliable sources or simply dispute claims made by NTC or major media outlets but so far all I see is "western media bad, don´t use it" without giving any alternative. In other words - there goes first puppy. EllsworthSK (talk) 08:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

On another note, AJE speaks of only two remaining Gadhafi bastions, Sirte & B. Walid, no mention of Ghat, which leads me to believe that since the NTC has recently been focusing on the Fezzan, Ghat has probably been taken, and I have RS: [14] 16:08, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that too. I think it's best to keep it blue, as we have had no reliable news of its outright capture. Ghat was never any sort of "stronghold", just an isolated town with pro-G sentiment. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 17:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

According to CNN, Sabha is not under NTC control

Is that reliable enough for you?

"Ibrahim effectively claimed victory in Bani Walid, which along with Sabha and Sirte are the few major municipalities not yet under opposition control." (cnn)

Please fix the map! --Kyknos (talk) 21:46, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like just poor reporting. CNN's own Ben Wedemann toured through the town when it fell: see some of the videos on this page. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:25, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
The link you provided is almost two weeks old. --Kyknos (talk) 23:30, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
Here is a nice link from just this past Thursday which tells in detail of how Sabha fell to the NTC with minimal fighting. Your source has a grand total of 2 passing references to the city. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
You just deny everything that does not fit :) This is no NPOV. --Kyknos (talk) 23:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
You're trying to blow a passing mention into reason for a map change. See here for a nice discussion of the fall of Sabha. The fact is, your source is contradicted by many others which state that Sabha fell. That is not NPOV. If you can find a source that says that loyalists retook or tried seriously to retake Sabha, then we can talk. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC) said that:
"Ibrahim effectively claimed victory in Bani Walid, which along with Sabha and Sirte are the few major municipalities not yet under opposition control." (cnn)
But when I read the article there's no such thing written there. Only:
"But Gadhafi loyalists are still offering stiff resistance in Bani Walid, Sabha and Sirte, and Moammar Gadhafi himself remains at large."
So, stop denying the truth :) AlphaBravoCharlie (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
That's obviously a copy-and-paste error which is contradicted by numerous other sources as well as common sense (and you are apparently a troll, not that it matters). —Nightstallion (?) 01:08, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Ibrahim = Moussa Ibrahim = Gaddafis Baghdad Bob. Since when do we take him seriously? --EllsworthSK (talk) 07:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

GHAT LIBERATED 12:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Ghat is under control of the NTC,all media and local people are telling it for several days!! So please mark it as brown and liberated in the map! Fighting in the Ghat-region is over! Only Sirte and Bani Walid remain! 12:36, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

I thought we told you to produce some actual reliable sources before coming here to squawk about map changes, or? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
If all media are telling so for several days than it shouldn´t be problem for you to source it somehow. Because I´m sorry but I´m not changing map just because you said so. --EllsworthSK (talk) 14:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
The IP is claiming that there is a universal conclusion but can't point to any valid sources. In other news, Generalíssimo Francisco Franco is still dead. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
I actually have a source for the fall of Ghat: [15] 21:19, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
We seek a reliable source (i.e. a news agency, not a rebel-aligned blog). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:31, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Really? Those are those all media you talked about? The site I and Lothan were removing from all articles, together with, and were finding reliable sources instead for a week? God just killed a kitten for this. EllsworthSK (talk) 00:02, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

WHEN WILL YOU REALIZE,THAT GHAT HAS FALLEN??????????????????!/Karybdamoid Here is a new map,only Sire and Bani Walid remain

[16] And the NTC says this as well,liberation of Libya is completed,when Sirte and Bani Walid are captured 07:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Come again He acknowledged that fighting will continue in a number of pockets deep in the southern desert, including Bani Walid. EllsworthSK (talk) 09:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Just for the record, after the most recent addition which was laden with personal attacks, I'd like to clarify that further soapboxing will be removed. If you don't like it, go file a report at the administrator noticeboard and see just how far it gets you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


For the whole conflict information from Ghadames has been scarse at best. Although there was the recent Ghadames raid, i have a more recent source that says that rebel forces are 'besieging' Ghadames [17] and another one saying that Gaddafi is in total control [18].

I think we should make it blue seeing as sources don't seem to agree. 22:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Mathaba ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ ≠ RS. No no no. Not even close. Not now, not ever.
The Scotsman article says that "Gaddafi could be holed up near the western town of Ghadames". If you look at a map, there is a lot of desert "near" Ghadames where he could be hiding. I don't see anything there that would support changing it to blue. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:57, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
And for the future reference, Russian Pravda articles which claim that there is gigantic warfare happening in Tripoli, that Tobruq, Zawiya, Ghadames, Fezzan and Benghazi are under Gaddafi control and that 5 Apaches and 1 AC-130 were shot down are not RS as well. Regards EllsworthSK (talk) 10:12, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Bahahahahahahaha thanks for sharing that one. I guess it's true what they say: "Правда — это не правда" (or words to that effect). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:06, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Then I read the comments and cried; God massacred an entire animal shelter because of those people.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, enough with murdering animals. 03:21, 6 October 2011 (UTC)


Here: [19] it says that the rebels are fighting for Sirte, it should be full blue. 03:42, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Does that count? They're just a mile in on one side. Kwamikagami (talk) 04:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
Nope, doesn't count. The situation is still clear: loyalists maintain overall control but are under siege. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Just to report, there is another map made by Sharon Lynch with the ongoing situation

The colors are the same used here. It looks very accurate, if this is not considered a valid source for Wiki, at least take it as "unofficial" help to follow the blurred situation in the south, which seems now falling almost totally under FF control, except for Ghat. 07:30, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Rebels have moved into Sirte, one kilometer from the city center. [20] How about changing it to blue now?


The whole South is free from Gaddafi´s rule. I have received information,that Murzuq,Ghat and Al-Fuqaha are under rebel-control since this morning. Only Bani Walid and Sirte remain! Sascha,Germany, 16:41, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Mmm, that's nice. Now if you could provide an actual reliable source for that, we could add it to the map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:43, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Sasha, Murzuq has been under rebels control for several days, the disputed towns were Al Qatrun and Ghoddua in that area. Plus the Ghat area and surrounding which look to be under Ghaddafi's control as far as i write.20:27, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Once again, provide reliable source and than I´ll gladly change it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:03, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Reuters say that rebels are "massed in Zafran Square about 1 km from the town centre." AFP says that rebels have been pushing along the main thoroughfare of Sirte. 03:11, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This is a quite reliable map (although the source might not be valid for Wikipedia standards)!/Karybdamoid/status/117826733624930304/photo/1

It shows effectively Al Qatrun has finally been liberated as well as Ghoddua. The only areas in south still under loyalist control is Ghat area and its surroundings (Tahala, Sardalas). Fuqaha is not listed in that map, so i suppose it still might be under loyalits control. We can resume placed yet to be taken by rebels:

1-Beni Walid : rebels disorganized, many retreats and defections. Probable location of Saif Al Islam Ghaddafi 2-Sirte: battle ongoing. Rebels in large numbers, strong resistence. Probable location on Mutassim Ghaddafi 3-Fuqaha: Pockets of Ghaddafi's troops cornered after retreating from Hun/Waddan area 4-Ghat area (Ghat,Tahala,Sardelas): No fighting reported so far in Ghat, although rebels are close to the nearby villages. Probably location of Muammar Ghaddafi. 5-Matan as Sarra:No fighting reported so far and still nobody interested to head towards this small oasis.

?-Unknown location of Moussa Ibrahim and Senoussi.

The feb17 site claims that accordingly to sky news, Moussa Ibrahim was captured in Sirte. I know that feb17 is not a reliable source, but this information should be checked. 01:22, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
AJE has reported on this claim, though it's unclear if it is confirmed yet. At any rate, it doesn't have any real influence on the map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:10, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

BBC News says this: I'm not sure whether that would qualify as red with blue border, but I certainly think it should be further looked into... LacsiraxAriscal (talk) 16:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ongoing Fighting in Sabha

There is mixed control of Sabha right now, so it should be blue not red: [21] & [22]

Looks like it is another of those cities "captured" by NTC forces but still having ongoing fighting several days later. Ummonk (talk) 18:11, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Red with blue ring if anything. 20:33, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

This newspaper even claims "Gadhafi loyalists, however, still control another major city, Bani Walid, in the central mountains, and Sabha deep in the deserts of the south." [23] Please change it to blue. Ummonk (talk) 16:15, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean this Sabha, which fell almost effortlessly to NTC forces as a CNN reporter observed? I think it is more likely that this story you provide is just a reporter not doing his research. If loyalists somehow launched an attack on the city and now were in control of it, that would be something reported on. But aside from some pathologically paranoid bloggers, nobody has said anything of the sort AFAIK. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:56, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid (again)

Shouldn't we make Bani Walid blue? I found this article from CNN that reports fighting in Bani Walid. The city really appears to be contested now Here is the link Vectrex 6 October 2011, 19:27 (UTC)

It sounds like it. Unfortunately the article isn't hugely clear which hills it's referring to (outside the city limits? inside the city limits?) - but it seems to mean inside the city. Are there any other sources talking about this recent incursion? Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

F**k no! No no and no! The rebels haven't EVEN talk about Bani Walid, what makes you think it should change it to blue? Besides, the rebels are concentrating at Sirte, the birthplace of Gaddafi. Bani Walid is still very strongly held by Gaddafi forces. So I oppose. 03:13, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

But CNN (which is a reliable source) HAS talked about Bani Walid,and THIS is the reason why we should make it blueVectrex 7 October 2011, 05:20 (UTC)
another link that says there is fighting in Bani Walid... Make it blue Vectrex 7 October 2011, 14:10 (UTC)
I don't see anything at that second link. I also still maintain that taking just a single hill while the rest of the city remains under siege (i.e., controlling under 5% of the city) shouldn't meet the level of turning blue. Magog the Ogre (talk) 14:34, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Ghat - again

After a long time I have finally something solid regarding Ghat. This source shows a video from Ghat airport which is located north of the city with date 24th September. From little checking of Google Maps it checks to be a Ghat airport and one video from Tassili - town north of Ghat. However I found no video from Ghat itself which would help me putting an end to this thing. So, several IPs have been telling here about videos and news from Ghat, if they have some I´d like to see them. EllsworthSK (talk) 22:10, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Also Id like some help with identification of this forteress on 1:37 of the video. It looks like Ghat forteress but Im not good at these things. Thanks, EllsworthSK (talk) 22:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
I compared it with a picture of the Ghat fortress, and it looks like it is the Ghat fortress. I think it's now safe to turn Ghat red.Vectrex 11:09, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
Also I have a video from Tinkirita border crossing in Ghat district. Well, safe to say that Ghat has fallen at the end of September. EllsworthSK (talk) 12:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid to Blue

NTC controls some parts of Bani Walid and today the airport was declared freed: [24] Time to put it blue. 16:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI the airport is right at the edge of the city: [25]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:57, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

NTC forces forced back from Bani Walid Airport. 14:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Sirte Again

My post in the previous section of Sirte seemed to go unnoticed, so I'll make a new section...

Anyway, I am wondering if the time has come (or is certainly fast approaching) to change the colour of Sirte to Red with a blue border. News organizations have reported significant gains in the area ( and it appears the conflict in the city is all but resolved. I don't want to make a call on it, but I think it should be considered. LacsiraxAriscal (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

No. Red with blue ring = rebel-held but under siege. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Sirte should be made red, because I got this link from Reuters that says that G forces control only small pockets of resistance in Dollar and Res.Area 2, and another link that says there are pockets of G forces in area 2 ~~ Vectrex (talk) 14:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Tripoli was blue until Abu Selim fell and the city was considered secure. We should follow the same process here. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:41, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Agreed with Lothar. Also remember that Sirte is a rather compact city, and even if the loyalists are hemmed into a couple neighborhoods that are a few square kilometers, that's still a decent share of the city potentially in their control (see the google satellite images if you don't believe me). And while the rebels have tended not to lie as brazenly as Qaddafi's guys, they often exaggerate their progress. A credible media organization quoting a rebel claim is no different from the rebels making a claim on the internet. Good proof= "I'm BBC's Joe Blow, and I'm standing in the middle of peaceful Sirte" Rotsapov (talk) 05:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Situation after october 14

October 14th seems to be a major attack day for Gaddafi loyalist forces. Appart of clashes in Tripoli it seems that the green flag is again up in Zawiyah and Sirte is again controlled by them, despite of heavy fights there. I thing the map should be recolored. -Theklan (talk) 17:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, Jesus H Christ people. That video form Zawiya is from February and morever you see there rebel miliats, not loyalist forces. I know that pro-G crowd is now celebrating some grand attack, supported by Ar Rai, but Jesus who was it that reported as first about fighting in Tripoli? Bad, evil western medias. Ridiculious. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
That video is extremely old. If Gaddafi is getting so desperate as to lie, I doubt he will be able to take over Zawiyah. -- 11:28, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli with a blue ring

Hi, I think we should put a blue ring to Tripoli, apparently approaching Pro-Gaddafi fights tonight in several neighborhoods of Tripoli and in neighborhoods like Abou Slim, there are already fighting. CNT confirmed the information. User:jmvkrecords 18:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli, Sabbha should go to blue. Please stop denying the information. --Kyknos (talk) 22:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Been here, done that. We're not doing a thing until you can provide a source; a vague three-letter acronym for a source that even Wikipedia doesn't recognize isn't going to do any good.
And please knock it the hell off with the accusations of bias. We've told this to you and other editors time and again. w:WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Let's see what a RS has to say about this:
  • "Shooting died down later in the afternoon." — i.e., it's over.
  • "Gaddafi supporters are still holding out in Sirte, Gaddafi's Mediterranean coastal hometown in the centre of the country, where a small pocket is battling on after weeks of fighting, and Bani Walid, a town south of Tripoli."nothing about Sabha.
Looks like you're wrong again. Oops. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:31, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
No.EllsworthSK (talk) 11:43, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

There're plenty of sources for this information and it should be with a blue mark around the city: Telegraph's video, Abu Salim yesterday, The Gazette, USA Today... -Theklan (talk) 17:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Try to read Lothars post. All these sources reported fighting in city yesterday which ended by afternoon. Sorry, map is not going to change because of some jubilious celebration by pro-G crowds outside Libya. --EllsworthSK (talk) 17:35, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
IDK. I did read about some fighting, IIRC it was on BBC. I vote it should remain completely red unless there is more fighting confirmed after the first incidence. If fighting happens again, it is equivalent to an insurgency, and the city probably should have a blue ring indicating NTC control with a small pocket of resistance. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
I dont know about what article you´re talking about but what today popped out were agency news about fighting which occured yesterday, not single one was talking about any fighting today, only about house searches by Tripoli Revolutionary Council militias in Abu Slim and other districts, several arrests and confiscation of several guns, ammo etc. Morever there were insurgent attacks when G controlled this city, I never saw anyone wanting to change colour because of that since consensus was that in order to change the colour one side of the conflict must have some foothold in the town/city and control some part of it. EllsworthSK (talk) 17:43, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

If we look at this video, we see why it is a dumb idea to change colours. Basically what happened was this: life is going on normally and peacefully in the capital—OH SHIT LOTS OF GUNFIRE WHAT THE HELL WHERE DID THAT COME FROM—life goes back to normal. There will be no blue ring added, as Tripoli is not under siege by any stretch of the imagination. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:28, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a good pro-NTC strategy, to deny information until it is obsolete so you do not need any changes confirming battles beyound Sirte and Bani Walid. NTC is certainly winning in the Wiki* propaganda front. This coverage is shame of this project. -- 11:20, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

What you could do, is add something (with reliable source as ref.) about the fragile security situation in Tripoli. But that would have to be in the context of Tripoli (and life in that city, possible lack of efficient policing etc), not as part of a civil war, as I see it. Demonstrations (albeit with violent content) is one thing, siege and uprising another.--Paracel63 (talk) 04:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)