File talk:Tripolitanian Front.svg/Archive 3

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Bani Walid

I've heard some rumors that Misratah rebels have been moving towards Bani Walid, but can't find confirmation. The current map seems to suggest that this is the case. Does anyone know for sure? Loro-rojo (talk) 20:01, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Misrata radio has reported an attack, which has in turn been reported by various journals [1] [2]. At this point, I would definitely suggest adding an arrow towards Bani Walid. Seleucus (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Tarhuna, al-Khums

This is from twitter (not a RS); it says "East of #Tripoli has been kicking off. #Gmata, #AlKhums, #Tarhouna and now #Zliten. FF active in all. Pray for them. #Libya #Feb17 about 4 hours ago via web" That's not enough to modify the map, but we can look for more solid sources to see if arrows should be added. It sounds like the area immediately around Tripoli will soon be the only green part of this map. Boud (talk) 20:58, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Twitter has been abuzz with rumors since the beginning of the rebel offensive on Az Zawiyah and the other coastal cities. Tarhuna was reported to have risen that day, among other cities. Sorman has fallen about four or five times now, as with Sibratha. The only thing reported by newspapers in Zliten today was that the planned uprising there had been pre-emptively stopped by loyalist forces [3]. Seleucus (talk) 21:16, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

fact tag: please suggest an alternative

In this edit, Knowledgekid87 added a tag stating: "The factual accuracy of this description is disputed. Reason: Area of control is too broad and the red fading into the green and green fading into red area is misleading."

Are you suggesting that most of the Libyan territory should be white? or grey? There are already some maps in that style, e.g. File:Libyan_Uprising_-_Gulf_of_Sidra.svg, with a beige background for areas between towns. You could start a Tripolitanian Front map in that style - it seems reasonable that there are the two styles IMHO. Both styles have politically relevant meanings: indirect control in one case (to which armed forces are you closest to if you are located at geographical position X?), direct in the other (which armed forces are within 10s or 100s of metres from you?). No need to force the two to use the same style.

i fail to understand why "the red fading into the green and green fading into red area is misleading":

  • armed forces from the "two" sides frequently move around
  • the degree of military control of most parts of the desert is more or less dependent on distance from concentrations of armed forces, but more fuzzy than sharp - if armed forces from side X are closer to a geographical point P than armed forces from side Y are to the point P, then it's more likely that X forces could go to P if they felt it necessary

To some degree, i think you are right, that control of Libyan territory is unlikely to be as binary (G or anti-G) as the map implies literally, but i think the reader can be expected to use common sense: Libya is not w:Java or the w:Netherlands with a high civilian population density all over, let alone a high military population density, and the green and red areas do not imply formal international frontier type boundaries. i suggest you remove the fact tag and start a Tripolitanian map in the style of the other maps of the style that you are interested in. You can then go to the pages that use this Tripolitanian map and see if there is consensus to use that style rather than this style, or both. Or maybe first ask about interest before making a map that will not be used. Personally, i think that the style of this map is useful, even though it should not be interpreted literally.

Boud (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I concur with Boud. Since the rebels controlled all of the Nafusa mountain villages then the fading area should extend from there to the next closest presumabely-Gaddafi controlled region, which is coastal area to the north and Mezda and other tiny settlements some 100 km south of Nalut.--Rafy (talk) 21:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, if we were doing it properly, much of the map would be neither controlled by rebels or loyalists (it's not like either of them are patrolling the middle of the desert); it's only the cities, the oil fields, the towns and other strategic regions that either side might want. The proper approach would take into account troop locations, military bases, etc. In which case this (old pro-rebel made) map would serve as a cent example. [4]. However, it's asking a bit much of us amateurs to follow exact troop dispositions from third-hand information, and so I think the current approach is best. Seleucus (talk) 23:09, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Loyalists around Gharyan

This video from AJE says that loyalists remain in Assabah, midway between Yafran/Galaa/Kikla and Gharyan, and on the road to Aziziya. There should be a green salient or pocket for Assabah, and rebel control on the Gharyan-Aziziya road should be reduced. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 06:22, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I tried really hard - this map is difficult to edit. Hope this is good. Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that the red may have been reduced too much from Kikla to Zawiya, but as I am too technologically incompetent to edit the map, I'll keep my criticisms to a minimum... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


Reports all over twitter that Zliten has been liberated, with claims that opposition fighters have advanced past it into Ka'am. Just keep an eye out for a legitimate source. --Wikiharr (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Confirmed by Aljazeera 18:17, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
More confirmation from reporters on the group that Zliten has been liberated. linkLoro-rojo (talk) 19:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


Zawiya has fallen to the rebels, see for Alex Crawford of Sky News' report from Martyr Square in Zawiya --Wikiharr (talk) 17:32, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Video Link: --Wikiharr (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Khums

Heads up: fighting has been reported in Al Khums on Twitter. No news source yet. --Wikiharr (talk) 20:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's one report from a tweeter: --Wikiharr (talk) 20:20, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The arrow should be between Zliten and Al Khums now, since Zliten was already liberated. Also, an arrow in the direction of Bani Walid would be a good idea, since reports show the rebels are also advancing on that direction. 20:44, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
For future reference: twitter is not considered to be WP:RS, period. If something will pop out in reliable sources than we can edit map and articles according to it but otherwise do not bother posting twitter reports without some solid backing. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:47, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Hence the heads-up and not the request for an edit. We've been back and forth on this for weeks. We all get it. --Wikiharr (talk) 22:25, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Zliten captured previously

I found this [5] source that stated that Zlitan had been captured by rebels initially in the February revolution, presumably to be recaptured later in February or early March. Should we add some sort of indication to the map regarding this? 22:18, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


Zawiya to rebels [6]


Many reports of heavy fighting and uprising in Tripoli [7]. I would suggest adding a dot of red in the central eastern sector of the city (the location of claimed uprising reports - Fashloum, Souq al-Juma, and Ben Ashur [8] [9] Seleucus (talk) 22:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Red area needs to go all the way to Janzur. 02:38, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
With all the recent news about the rebels occupying most of the city, the red area should be out farther now. 02:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


needs updated!/richardengelnbc "Tajoura has been totally liberated from Gadafi Militias. #Libya Tajoura has erected its command & control units, military & civil control." --Richhaddon (talk) 22:48, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

This is confirmed by Al Jazira's reporter in Tripoli.(in Arabic)--Rafy (talk) 09:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli airport

FYI, the current map is quite aggressive, and it's hard to be sure where it might be too aggressive, but the airport is currently under opposition control: [10]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Map was completely wrong hence I reverted it. There is no RS which claims that Aziziya has been taken, nor that rebel units advanced from south and west into the Tripoli. All sources states that this is local thing and that they are waiting for rebel armed forces to march in what so far did not happen. --EllsworthSK (talk) 06:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The claim of the airport being taken is coming from a rebel source. Obviously they have to take Aziziya first to reach the outskirts of Tripoli.--Rafy (talk) 09:23, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The airport was taken yesterday (22nd) around noon: 03:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


According to Al Jazeera English "as far as we can confirm, however, rebel forces remain in Zawiyah to the west of Tripoli, Zlitan to the east and Gharyan to the south. South of the capital, a battle is expected on Sunday for Aziziyah, the next town on the road after Gharyan."[11]

So not taken yet. 08:30, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I think Aziziyah has fell to rebels, I don't have a link the news was circulating on twitter. The fact that the airport has fell I think indicates that it is true because they had to go through Aziziyah to reach the airport. I will stay on the look for a link. 14:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Twitter is an echo chamber for unreliable news (uprisings in Sirte, anyone?). Aziziyah is reportedly a bastion of loyalist sentiment, so I think that we would hear of a battle to capture the town. The rebels may have bypassed either Aziziyah or Tripoli to take the airport; it's not like it is 100% necessary to go through the town. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Just saw on german news show a reporter calling from Aziziyah —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Probably Bab al-Aziziyah, not the city of al-Aziziyah... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

see below, the correspondent said "a town 30 km south of tripolis"

south of Gharyan

Is there any source that rebels are marching south of Gharyan to Sabha or Mezda??? Does loyalist soldiers mentioned in this article (in Assaba) surrendered? Boniek1988 (talk) 08:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Rebels claimed to have liberated Mizda (Mezda, Mizdah... etc) earlier in Augusts.[12]--Rafy (talk) 08:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
This map [13] shows that Assaba garrison didn't surrender. It is sourced on twitter bloger!!! True journalist would not do that kind of thing. It is completely not reliable. You know that it is probably false alert added to map??? Boniek1988 (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, what you're saying is true, but the map is hosted on a pro-rebel website, and when rebels themselves admit that an area is still under loyalists control then that's a pretty reliable claim imho.--Rafy (talk) 09:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I meant that this article that you added is sourced on twitter bloger. Sorry, mental shortcuts are sometimes misleading. Boniek1988 (talk) 09:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I see. I picked that source because it was the only one I found in English. Rebels claim to having a presence in that area since July and I personally find their claims consistent with what have been reported in Arabic news sources.[14][15].--Rafy (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok. I think that this can end this discussion. Boniek1988 (talk) 09:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Al mayah

al jazeera repoting that rebels have taken al mayah

--Richhaddon (talk) 10:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

According to the BBC, the rebels reached al Mayah but were then forced to retreat several kilometres back to Jaddayim ( The red area should be scaled back to just outside Zawiya to reflect this. -- 14:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
If that update was made, then the map would not reflect the recent rebel advances. 15:29, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
As of 15:20 GMT, the rebels have been waiting near Jeddayim, for NATO to hit Loyalist positions in Al Mayah. See here: -- 15:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Can these cities be added to the map? 15:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Tarhuna, 21 Aug

Why is this map currently showing Tarhuna as taken by rebels (on 21 August)? Are there any sources supporting this claim? -- 13:41, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

No, there isn't. I reverted it. I've noticed that editor likes to make a lot of "optimistic" edits to the map. Fovezer (talk) 14:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Reports from BBC that tarhuna has now fallen to the rebels at the time 16:25 " A correspondent for al-Jazeera TV has said Libyan rebels have captured the city of Tarhuna, 80km south-east of Tripoli." --Richhaddon (talk) 15:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
OK, now we have a source. Re-reverted. Fovezer (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Now hold on a second, I say we wait until we get more journalists confirming that the rebels hold it. And on a side note, does anyone have any news about Msallata, because I highly doubt that the rebels still control it. 15:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Wait. A pro-rebel map says that Al Qusbat (i.e. Msallata) and Tarhuna is still controlled by Gaddafi.--Tingo Chu (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
One, I opposed adding Msallata as rebel controlled because all we had was one pro-rebel source for it and never heard anything else. Two, that map is from yesterday and news from the Al Jazeera correspondent about Tarhuna came in today. Fovezer (talk) 17:33, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Since everyone agrees that Msallata belongs to Loyalists I have removed the red bulb, with the recapture date remaining unknown.--Rafy (talk) 19:08, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I originally put this on Rafy's talk page but I figured it would be more appropriate to leave it here: Why have you greened the location of Msallata? As far as I know there are no reports of Msallata falling back under Gaddafite control. I would also have to be a little doubtful of any such thing, judging from the fact that attacking Msallata would be tactically stupid (judging from the impending attacks on the coast and Gharyan which commenced about a week after) and the fall of neighboring Tarhuna to the rebels. In any case, changing Msallata without a source, unless you have one (unupdated maps do not count), would be OR, so until you guys have one I have reverted.--Yalens (talk) 22:28, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Other than one rebel source saying there was an uprising, we have zero information to base it off of. If you have another reliable source that doesn't quote the same rebel, please show it. It is silly to take any claim by the rebels or by Gaddafi without independent confirmation. So if we really don't know what's going on, it's not right to change the map based on that. And please don't revert maps when there are other changes done to it.Fovezer (talk) 03:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
We have a whole page with four sources (and there are more we didn't post there as they basically said the same thing) about the original uprising in Msallata (also called Al-Qasbat in Al Jazeera English, for example). I believe that Al Jazeera had something on it, but I just spent an hour trying to dig through their Libya Live Blog for it (I also tried a link from an old revision of the Msallata page, but it is stale), and the search isn't being nice to me (I wish they could go back to organizing it by day...). Admittedly all of them derive some of their information from rebel sources (though not "the same rebel" as you claimed, and if I can ever get the Libya Live blog entry...), as there has been no visits that I know of to the town. However, the Gaddafite sources have never repudiated it, and the wartime situation plus the huge events occuring soon after in Western Libya diverting attention make the lack of confirmation acceptable in my mind. However, the way the map is right now is simply ridiculous. Having a "???" recapture date is just absurd and smacks of OR, while Msallata is turning into, ironically, an island of green (based solely on the OR-based consensus here) on the map where it was once an island of red. Yes, it is highly possible that Gaddafi retook it? Who knows? But to assert that or to assert that it never experienced a pro-NTC uprising at all are OR opinions at best (and I mean, at best considering the current situation), and the latter does not match the current map either. Perhaps a good compromise would be to get rid of the dates completely, but right now, especially with the whole coast red, it looks ridiculous to have Msallata/Qusbat green when the most recent sources regarding the city say it was rebel controlled. If only there was an "unclear" color. --Yalens (talk) 00:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Ras Ajdir

Starting to get tweets about the border crossing at ras adjir.. maybe it should be added?!/LongLiveLibya/status/105286996079026176!/search/RasJdir%20 if anyone can get an official report of it , that would be good

It seems that Zuwara has fallen too 15:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you have an article that support your claim? 15:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Al Jazeera reports there are still pockets of resistance on the coastal road, but doesn't say where. Kwamikagami (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


Any source about the fall of the city? Wael.Mogherbi (talk) 17:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Twitter is buzzing about Zuwara. Apparently, it it being claimed that rebels from Zawiya landed in Zuwara last night by boat and that there has been fighting since. Also, there are claims that Zuwara is being shelled by Qaddafi forces, which would mean that the city has fallen (or at least part of it). This is, however, is unconfirmed. Loro-rojo (talk) 18:35, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Twitter is an unreliable source. If, let's say, BBC reported this, then we could add Zuwara to rebel territory, but otherwise, We can't add it based off of what Twitter says. 19:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Zuwarah is being attacked by loyalists which means it has fallen.[16]--Rafy (talk) 21:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

3 maps

How about splitting map to 3 files: to 15 Apr, 15 Apr-31 Jul and 1 Aug-now? Then it can be shown advances in theese period and now it's illegible. Mixx321 (talk) 19:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
More like making a gif image from it. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Done. Mixx321 (talk) 11:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli Airport

Rebels took Tripoli Int. Airport: [17] 20:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

That just says the rebels claimed to have taken the airport, but perhaps better evidence has since surfaced. Agricolae (talk) 05:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Tripoli International Airport is under rebel control, per Arwa Damon of CNN. She is actually at the airport. [18] Fovezer (talk) 00:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


While the oposition dosen't hold completely all of tripoli they certainly hold a continuous area and not two pockets as portrayed on the map,--J intela (talk) 03:38, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Khums

There was an uprising in Al Khums overnight, and the Misrata rebels are attacking. See Libyan Uprising file. 15:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

There are al-Khums twitter reports at: - maybe something in MSM soon? Boud (talk) 20:06, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The entire coast from Misrata to Tripoli is controlled by rebels, check tweets of!/simmjazeera . for example!/simmjazeera/status/105733051824349186 he made the trip from Misrata to Tripoli. 20:42, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


These reports suggest that the control on the Zlitan area is limited to the coast, and that loyalist forces are occupying the hills just 3-miles south of the town - the area of rebel control should probably curve back to the east rather than extending straight toward Bani Walid.

For Zuwara, I have seen no RS for a push along the road as indicated in the current map. Reports (non-RS) suggest instead an uprising/infiltration by sea, as happened in Tajura. The following seems to give the situation as of yesterday between there and the border.

Agricolae (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I propose to delete the red arrow from Zliten area and add green one. This is probably a suicidal attack from pro-Kaddafi forces, but why not. Boniek1988 (talk) 19:26, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
It's not either/or - the BBC live coverage is showing the Zliten rebels are still pushing west, at Wadi Ki'am, while Guardian is showing this shelling and 'counterattack'. Agricolae (talk) 19:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Date of fall needs to be added to Zuwarah/Zaltan. 21:36, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
"Tracer fire, anti-aircraft guns and artillery could be seen and heard around Zawiya"[19] Kwamikagami (talk) 10:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Msallata again...

This timeline page [20] shows that Msallata was taken by pro-Kaddafi forces between 21 and 22 August (clicking arrows under the map necessary). If the rebels success was possible because some forces were in Msallata and now they are back near Zliten this may have sens. Don't you think??? Boniek1988 (talk) 19:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Msallata needs to be red due to current rebel advances. 21:33, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, as we do not have sources (or at least, I have not ever SEEN them) for Msallata being retaken by the Gaddafites, it should have never been remade green to begin with. --Yalens (talk) 22:46, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
It should never have been made red in the first place. We never had any reliable sources to confirm it, just the word of one rebel and we never heard anything after that. Until you can provide a reliable source confirming the capture of the town, or at least some indirect evidence such as rebels from Tarhuna traveling to Al Khums, or vice versa, I don't think we should make it red and I will oppose it until we get new info. If you can provide a source, however, I will gladly change it myself. Fovezer (talk) 02:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
(I also posted above under the Tarhuna section, in case you didn't notice) Well, at least, if you think that way, can't we get rid of the ridiculous "???" recapture date, because of Msallata allegedly never fell to the rebels, it certainly couldn't be recaptured!--Yalens (talk) 20:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Situation south of Tripoli?

Now the map reflects that opposition has control of the whole area south of Tripoli. Is this based upon the assumption that they have taken Tripoli International Airport (south of Tripoli)? Which, BTW, is not the same thing as Mitiga International Airport (in the east of Tripoli proper). I sincerely hope we have more sources than NTC themselves on this.--Paracel63 (talk) 14:14, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Right now (21:10, Libyan time) I saw a video report on CNN International, from this afternoon. It talked of 4 hours of battle at the international airport, which they did not yet control. The reporter also mentioned the highway going north from the airport to the capital was still not in NTC/NLA control. I think the map should reflect this.--Paracel63 (talk) 19:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Uqba ben Nafi airport

Doesn't it seem like the Uqba ben Nafi airport and surrounding areas should be under rebel control, since the rebels have surrounded it? 17:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Green arrow in Tripoli?

Shouldn't that arrow be removed or changed to red? Bab Al-Azizia has changed hands, and the port seems to be in NTC/NLA hands, according to The Guardian and The Telegraph (se Tripoli map with discussion and links to sources).--Paracel63 (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Aziziya (not Bab) - possibly hiding place for Gaddafi - any sources for G or anti-G control?

Do we have any sources for anti-G control of Aziziya, the town half-way between Gharyan and Tripoli? states

"# AJA Jaloud says #Gaddafi probably not spending more than 3 hours in same location, hiding in civilian residences / # AJA: Jaloud says that #Gaddafi probably left #Tripoli.. says most proably hidding in Azyziya [FYI: the City NOT the compound ] #Libya".

Jalloud was a longtime friend of Gaddafi, so it's probably one of the best guesses around. As far as Tripolitanian Front.svg is concerned, it would be good to have sources either way: should we remove the red from Aziziya pending MSM reports that it's anti-G controlled? Boud (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that Gadhafi still retains control of Al-Aziziya, as I haven't heard of any sources stating that it's fallen to rebels. 19:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
german news 20:00 cet, 23 August 2011, correspondent said, they were welcomed by the rebels in aziziya, a town 30 km south of tripolis. about 3 hrs later, cnn reporter sara sidner was interviewed in aziziya, too. the town seems to be safe and under anti-g control —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 22:13, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

next interview on german tv from al asisija "a town 30 km sout-east of tripolis":

Seems like RS to me, changing colours. --EllsworthSK (talk) 08:05, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Some of the green arrows are misleading

For example, one shows Gaddafi advancing from the sea toward Tripoli, another from Tunisia. And we know that's not the case. --Yalens (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

These were I think meant to be for showing where loyalists were still making a stand, but in areas too small to show with green paint. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I think that just like Hitler Kaddafi thinks that relief would come. On what grounds you are probably thinking.

1. Two/three brigades in fire strength of 1,5 brigade are in the west part of country and are now shelling Zuwara, Ajelat in Sabha is strong garrison and in Sirte are ballistic missiles. 2. It's madness, but its in dictators/idealists/paranoids mind. 3. He won't capitulate. I'm sure. Suicide is not in his style to. Boniek1988 (talk) 01:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Three patches of green

I see three patches of green on this map that appear to be a legacy from older edits, and strike me as unlikely to be locations of a genuine pro-Gaddhafi resistence:

  • The one in the western part of the country, around Uqba ben Nafi airport and Al-Jamil.
  • The one immediately south-west of Gharyan.
  • The one to the north and east of Msallata, making the city look like an island (when in fact there are no cities in between it and other rebel cities.

Thoughts? Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

First patch is all right as those military units which are stationed in Uqba ben Nafi airbase are currently attacking Zuwarah and Al Ajalat.
This one is tricky, we knew that loyalist forces were in Asaba and were negotiating surrender however no one reported on current situation. Frankly I believe that its safe to say that it has fallen but we dont have anything to back up that claim.
Disputed territory, who knows who is in real control. --EllsworthSK (talk) 08:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

There’s also a green spot inside Tripoli labelled as Bab Al 'Aziziya.—Emil J. 12:38, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

In the western part: That's ok, still GF there. The patch one around Asabaa is ok, as the last known information was: GF controlled. The one around Msallata... well, I guess it should be connected to the red area to the north. Also, last I read was "Tarhouna liberated" and that was today. I don't know why the red patch appeared some days ago... Elllit (talk) 18:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Its strange but in this Azerbaijan web relying on al Arabija is that 24 august rebels seize control of military base in Zuara Boniek1988 (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Map controled areas 24th august


Tried to make an animation of the history of this file:

AzaToth 01:37, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Good thing, but try to delete some maps completely unreliable and slow twice. Boniek1988 (talk) 02:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Very nice, but you still need to backport some changes, to avoid cities, texts and roads popping out from nowhere and texts changing or moving abruptely.
Good job, but I suggest deleting any updates that were later found to be false. 03:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Updated now, I've tried to take care of all reverted frames. AzaToth 20:13, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Ras Ajdir

Ras Ajdir to loyalists. The rebels attacked it, but didn't take it. 03:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Source? Kwamikagami (talk) 17:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Le Monde confirms, as of today.[21] Kwamikagami (talk) 21:34, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC blog Live: Libya fighting [22] at 20:41 (26 Aug) reports the fall of Ras Jedir (i.e. Ras Ajdir). Agricolae (talk) 20:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Also reported by Reuters

Small Map Corrections

Acording to this map [23] things are a little bit different from wikipedia map. 12:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Green arrow toward Zliten on coastal road?

Is this still the case? If it is, how are fighters from Misrata able to get to Tripoli by road as they have been doing? We know that Zliten has been attacked since being captured, but isn't it more likely that this attack came from the south of Zliten, instead of on the road to Tripoli (which is supposedly clear)? 20:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

FF pass through Zliten but the town comes under (occasional) fire. GF are using long-range weapons on Zliten. FF control has not extended into the southern outskirts, afaik that's why there is the green arrow. Elllit (talk) 07:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
The map doesn't show it, but there is a road that leads south from Zliten towards the area of Bani Walid [24]. If control doesn't pass through the southern outskirts, wouldn't it make sense to add this additional road and put the green arrow going north through there instead? 10:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
That struck me as odd too, so when I added the rebel offensive on the border I reorientated the arrows (and added another for fighting on the road to the airport). Pls correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh, and I took out some of the rebel arrows. They're no longer attacking, they now occupy. Kwamikagami (talk) 16:35, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I first indicated the action there (see above Zlitan and Zuwara section), based on reports of shelling from (paraphrasing here) 'a ridge south of the town' apparently associated with loyalist men occupying a cement works '3 miles to the south'. That was before the break-through to Tripoli, and in reporting on that, Andrew Simmons said he didn't know if the group doing the shelling had been defeated or if they just left, making it sound like it was no longer an issue. I don't know whether the move of the arrow to the road was intended to represent something different, due to a new loyalist push, or if it is all now old news. Agricolae (talk) 18:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Here is the latest I could find: [25]] (last paragraph reports snipers). Agricolae (talk) 01:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think some isolated snipers in the city warrant a big green arrow... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:06, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


Tarhuna is confirmed as Qaddafist-held by the rebels themselves. [] --Quintucket (talk) 06:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, as the Tarhuna claim maybe legit, I don't see what deleting the patch around Asabaa (south-west of Gharyan) has to do with it... did rebels clean that area? Elllit (talk) 07:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Asaba pocket still exists. You probably don't know why... I explain. When NATO advisers were planing capture of Tripoli the south from was not so important. Important was the north and there most of rebels were not including some rebels attacking Gharyan from most unexpected direction from the north. They probably even didn't inform the Assaba garrison and from Assaba leads only one road - to Gharyan. They are now in trap. Heading south through the desert in Ramadan is a suicide. So probably rebels are waiting to the time when they start starving or deserting. The rebels said they were negotiating surrender. If the loyalist forces would surrender we would heard about it. Boniek1988 (talk) 15:13, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
That's what I thought. Thanks for explaining. Btw. I asked because he removed the green patch with his Trahuna edit. Elllit (talk) 20:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. Sorry I missed that before posting at the bottom. I assumed that the loyalist forces would have simply blown past the rebels as they do around Tripoli to fight another day. But of course the terrain is quite different there. --Quintucket (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC) has video showing the Rebels entering Tarhouna today. Does that count as valid source?-- 02:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, this is pretty strong evidence (even if dating of this is risky, and the situation can have changed since). The mosque at 2:40 would surely be this mosque. Video is available on YouTube. BTW, the video was uploaded on YouTube on _26_ of August. Anything noted on this in major media? Question is: where did this military column go from Tarhuna (if they advanced further)? As "our" map has a lot of green arrows around Zliten and to the south of Tripoli, this video really looks like a red one. ;-)

Bab al-Azizia should be red

Bab al-Azizia (inside Tripoli) is currently coloured green. But it was taken by the rebels three days ago. Alfons Åberg (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I recall this problem being fixed, but now it seems that it has been changed back to green again... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:59, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

South of Tawargha

The red area south of Tawargha should be extended to match of with the Gulf of Sirt Front map; right now the fade-out is too much in this area. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:27, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

It *is* red in Inkscape. I've tried fixing it, but it turns green whenever I upload it. I have no idea why. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:13, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Try again. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty | Averted crashes 13:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Zaltan, al-Jamil, and Ajilat

These three towns currently look to be in rebel territory, but per this, they are actually the towns where loyalists are still holding out and bombarding Zuwarah from. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This map on a pro-rebel site also shows these same three towns in loyalist hands [26], so it seems that this information is accurate. I have never seen a reliable report that the whole coastal road was taken, and the same pro-rebel map says it is still loyalist-controlled. I will change the map accordingly. Agricolae (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
That map does show Msalata as being rebel-held, though. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:37, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it does, but that doesn't mean the claim can be trusted - a positive claim on their part is not necessarily trustworthy (e.g. they have claimed to have taken Assaba numerous times now). When even they, with their most optimistic mindset, admit that they don't have a place, they probably don't, but the reverse can't be said for their positive claims. Agricolae (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
That double standard is not how RS works, but whatever. Anyway, here is a source that says the capture of the crossing opened up the supply line to Tripoli. This would not be the case if the road was still partially held by loyalists. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Both positive and negative claims can be made doubtful by fog of war. You can't pick a non-reliable source and decide that since it says something that does not seem to reflect well on itself, that makes it reliable in that one instance. Cherry-picking "reliability" defeats the purpose of the notion of RS. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Welcome to reality, Lothar von Richthofen! According to a narrow understanding of RS, you may be right, but in real life, Agricolae is right. He extracts from the sources just what they can realistically provide us with. Alfons Åberg (talk) 07:21, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Several things: I am not claiming it as a RS. Rather, here we have an area on the map that was changed without explicit RS citation (and we now know at least part of it was not true, as the border crossing was not taken until yesterday). Such a non-RS change shouldn't be retained when another non-RS that would be expected to be biased in favor of control says the opposite. It should revert to default, which in this case is green. That is different than using it as positive evidence for something that they would be expected exaggerate. Second, there is always a degree of reading tea leaves in compiling such a map, taking the information that is out there and drawing an almost arbitrary line between the places known to be held by the two forces, as we rarely get precise front-line documentation (when there even is a precise battle line). Given that, we have to synthesize everything to arrive at a best-guess. So we look at what the media says, and we look at what the rebels claim and we look at what the loyalists claim and we look at the geography we do the best we can with it. If the media doesn't say the rebels have it, and the loyalists don't say the rebels have it and even the rebels don't say the rebels have it, it's got no business being red. If we were restricted to RSs for drawing this map, then all we could show in rebel hands are specific towns and roads but none of the spaces in between - it would be dots and sticks, not territories. (And even if we had a RS for the rebels taking a town or road, that is only reliable for when the report was made, not the next day or a week later.) Third, the same source can certainly be more reliable for some things than others. RS/non-RS is at its heart a false dichotomy, a vast oversimplification. The same European 16th century map of the world could be reasonably reliable for Italy, and bear little similarity to reality when depicting the New World. It is 'cherry picking' to take biases into account when evaluating the relative reliability of individual claims. Agricolae (talk) 10:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
AJE reports about capture of Ras Adjir: "This is incredibly important not because it shows that they are managing to get rid of what is left of Gaddafi troops in that area, but more importantly it opens supply route now totally across from the west into Tripoli". The map does not show that the supply route is open from the border to Tripoli. Should this be fixed? -- 08:13, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
BBC just says, "Control of the border post is crucial for opening supply routes from Tunisia into Tripoli," not that it actually opens the supply route. We need a journo to run the route to be certain, but certainty has never been the standard. Agricolae (talk) 10:53, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Asaabah Arrow

Does anyone have a source that verifies that loyalists are attacking Gharyan from Assabah? 23:50, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The map I cited in the previous section (not RS) shows conflict there, but doesn't indicate who is attacking whom. Agricolae (talk) 00:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


I would like to propose we at least put Msallata under "unclear" if not back under rebel control for a number of reasons (and PLEASE do not reply to them one at a time, I just find that annoying, because its hard to read).: 1. We have a handful of sources, which despite quoting the rebels are regarded as RSs in their own right, saying the rebels took it, including a whole page. By contrast there are no sources saying the Gaddafites retook it, a classic case of WP:OR. 2. The argument that it was never taken by the rebels does not fit with the page, which says that the Gaddafites retook it from the rebels (worse, on an, let me emphasize, unknown date). If the rebels never took it, the Gaddafites could not retake it. 3. As there are only sources (I admit, at some parts quoting rebels), then either rebel held or unclear is best for Msallata. I would suggest, as a possible compromise that a new unclear color be used for Msallata, or that it be placed right between green and red if that is not possible.--Yalens (talk) 00:20, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The "???" recapture date should be removed and perhaps we could have "Possibly 6 Aug" in red or something. It's the "???" recapture date that I have a big problem with. --Yalens (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That uninhabited road

About that suspiciously specific green spot between Aba Gala and Abu Zayyan:
1. I don't see where, either in the link given here, the video or in the news article that goes with it here. Where does it say that Qaddafists hold a small area of road between Al Gala and Abu Zayyan?
2. Even if it did, that article is from the 19th, well before the fall of Tripoli. And it's not even an inhabited area. If the rebels control the area around it and there's been no news since Tripoli, there's no reason to believe the loyalists are holding onto an isolated stretch of road while the capital burns.
--Quintucket (talk) 11:09, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

to 1: When Gharyan fell the information was that the loyalists gathered around Asabaa and that is the last info we had. That's why there is the green spot

to 2: That is just speculation... even tho it is logically comprehensible... Elllit (talk) 11:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Ahh, thanks. With the help of Google Maps I see there actually is a speck there. I was looking for a reference to the road between those cities. Any rate I'm not simply speculating, I'm pointing out that we are going on very old information, and that's just as bad as going on bad information, and we need to consider the sources in context. (Fortunately we're not on Wikipedia and don't have to comply with the no-synthesis policy, or there would be no map at all.)
If it was a larger city I'd absolutely agree that it's probably still Qaddafi controlled, because we'd hear the joyous shouts of the residents when the loyalists left, not to mention rebel propaganda (which happens even when they don't take a city.) But it sounds like this was a minor point for grouping loyalist forces, and not a place to make a stand (not even so much as the somewhat more important but wholly anticlimactic case of Aziziya). We understand that they regrouped there, and we also understand that Qaddafi has been moving his forces around a lot. From this we know that they could still be in that same exact place waiting for the rebels to come, they could be hiding somewhere else nearby or they could be completely gone. But going on current sources, we have no reason to believe that his forces are sitting in the middle of nowhere cooling their heels. (And if they are, they're probably there as tourists.)
--Quintucket (talk) 12:14, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Eh, nevermind. I just saw Boniak's explanation above. In this case, I think he has the advantage of Occam's Razor. --Quintucket (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I had Occam's Razor Quintucket at history studies in last semester ;) Boniek1988 (talk) 14:34, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Not to speculate in any resemblance to Iraq 2003 or something… But I'd like to think we ought to start change some green areas to yellow. As the overall command of Gaddhafi forces probably weakens (now that, as it seems, Tripoli is all but taken, Gaddhafi invisible and loyalist intelligence/communication systems severely hampered by months of pounding by NATO jets). At the same time I believe NTC/NLA presence might be very thin in a lot of areas, given the battle of Tripoli and all these minor battles. This could create a power vacuum here and there – which makes for more yellow. The NLA column entering Tarhuna (possibly on the 26th) in a seemingly peaceful manner, could be an example of this. So I think the wide areas around Tarhuna and Bani Walid could turn from green to at least yellow very soon now. And the Asabaa should probably also be yellow. Where we do know the loyalists still put up a good fight is in the far northwest, around Sirte and in the Fezzan.--Paracel63 (talk) 21:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Someone should really get rid of that green speck. If we don't know of any Gaddafi folks there now, then they aren't there. --Nogburt (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

No, the rebels' own map shows that spot as a pocket of resistance. [27] --Quintucket (talk) 07:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Wow, I guess so. Could someone at least put a town or something there (wherever it is where the loyalists are holed up) so it wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb? --Nogburt (talk) 23:55, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

That "unhabited road" is the city of Assaba, and it goes to FF, according several tweets referring LibyaTV since 26.08.11.!/search/assaba . Obviously there weren't G troops, just the inhabitants. The G troops are massing around Bin Walid, in defence. So that "green spot on the road" doesn't exist anymore! The correct name for that spot is by the way Al Asabiah, and not Assaba or Asabaa. Twits on!/search/asabiah 14:28, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Too bad Twitter isn't a reliable source. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 13:48, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Anyway, almost 2 weeks no informations that there are battles and GF force is way more news than an AJE or Reuters journo briefly in Gharyan - while the rest of that civil war was highly dynamic. Given the relative threat by reported 18 tanks and 12 rocket launchers there, retreated from Gharyan, see, they can't "survive" very long in a village like Asabiah, under FF siege, and also FF won't accept that threat either. If there are no new reports and also weak sources, all human senses tell us they gave up or retreated to Bani Walid. Being oversubtle with "reliable sources" won't help for an often adjusted map, based mainly on weak sources. 16:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Ben Ghashir

AP reports of rebel claims that Ben Ghashir has been liberated. Any proper source? Elllit (talk) 11:36, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

AP is proper source and on map Qasr ben Ghashir is on rebel-held territory. --EllsworthSK (talk) 13:43, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Yes, but . . . . If AP was reporting that Ben G had been taken, that would be a proper source. Here they are just passing on information from another source that is known to be biased, so not so much. That being said, AJE last night reported that the fighting had been pushed south of the city-proper, although they did not explicitly name Ben Ghashir. Agricolae (talk) 17:30, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Yep, that's why I asked for a proper source, it was just claims on AP ;). Too bad, none was available. Seems like everything is focused on Tripoli... Elllit (talk) 00:25, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Green arrows?

On this battlefield map it seems that Gadaffi forcess are attacking in at least 4 places. There is no offensive in Zliten, no fighting near Gharyan and no loyalist offensive on Tripoli? Stronger said: Gadaffi forcess do no longer have the ability to attack in great numbers. So ... why the green arrows?

Shellings, my dear unnamed friend. Zuwarah is been shelled from few days. Look on page Coastal offensive the are links. Zliten... This is problem. Probably it is not shelled, because we didn't heard nothing about this, but most of reporters are now in Tripoli and few in Ras al-Unuf, so we don't know is there quiet or not. About attack on Tripoli and surroundings look 2011 Battle of Tripoli. Boniek1988 (talk) 14:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I don't think we should be using arrows to designate shelling. On the map legend, it states that arrows represent troop movements, and there are no troops moving in these cases. Perhaps we need some new designations for this?Anon (talk) 13:49, 06 September 2011 (UTC)

Al Ajaylat

CNN's Nic Robertson reporting rebels appear to have finally taken Al Ajaylat: [28] -Kudzu1 (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Not reporting they took it, reporting they say they took it. Kwamikagami (talk) 17:13, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Robertson now saying Zaltan is in anti-Gaddafi hands and was last town on highway (which includes Al Ajaylat) to fall; he's there right now, he says: [29] -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
If that is true than Gaddafi forces in all that area have all been defeated, the rest is only desert basically... Probably it should all be painted red
The precedent of the Asabaa pocket (see above) indicates that it's still quite possible to have Qaddafist forces trapped behind enemy lines. Especially since these ones had actually been putting up a credible counter-offensive. --Quintucket (talk) 20:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
There is also a significant airbase within the area, a likely fall-back position/arms depot - no, we can't assume the whole area is under anti-Ghaddafi control. Agricolae (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
The rebels probably decided to take reserves of Brigade Coast, which is probably in this area and attack loyalists from behind, because Zuwara situation was a quasi-siege, but they were gaining ground (Al Jamil). And I agree that loyalists have now only one position, where they can defend themselves. Boniek1988 (talk) 21:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Please change Al Ajaylat to NTC control: [30] -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:11, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I didn't hear anything about Ajaylat in that video. It says that the coastal highway has been cleared, but as I noted in the section below, Ajaylat is not on the highway. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC)!/NicRobertsonCNN 27.08.11, clear feed that FF conquered Ajaylat. And the coastal highway seems to work from Tripoli to Tunisia without problems or GF. So there is no indication for fights, green arrows or G held areas near the coastal highway. By the way, the cited AJE souce from 28.8. is from a former journey to the west from a correspondent now in Tripoli (so the trip was minimum 1 day earlier), and it doesn't say GF are in Ajaylat bur near to it. There is no source at all that Ajaylat itself is G controlled. And no source that is telling that any shelling in the region happened after Saturday evening, but many speak from a frequent transport of goods and journos are travelling there without any problems. 12:32, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
That Tweet simply says that the rebels claim to have taken Ajaylat, not confirming that this is actually the case. That being said, I think Sue Turton's statement re a small pocket of pro-G fighters near Al-Ajaylat is being interpreted too literally. We just need to back the front up rather than showing it as advanced beyond Al-Ajaylat (for which I have seen no evidence), then with a fully encircled enclave. Agricolae (talk) 20:39, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Very probably we won't hear anything because there seems to be no GF front there anymore after latest FF offense on 25.8.-28.8., maybe some unimportant guys in the desert without heavy weapons with a green flag for whom in FF nobody doesn't care for. No reports or tweets about shelling, a highway very frequentated again and many cars crossing the border in Ras Ajdir. The missing of any reports of clashes but reports about normality is news too. 23:02, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Outside the reported cities, meanwhile all taken by FF, is obviously not even houses, so most probably there is no GF in all the area in northwest anymore. Unless we consider an army in the desert, in the middle of nowhere, low in water and food now. Honestly, there is no GF there anymore, and nobody will tell more about what happens in the sand desert. The "cleaning" there from 25.8. to 28.8., done by a lower number of FF, indicates that there weren't many GF, just a few heavy arms to shell Zuwarah. 12:40, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

It's now very obvious what happened in the Northwest, all reports about shellings, conquers and battles on Twitter, the news on the phone and press reports are absolutely inline: Zwara started a revolution on 22.8., though not much supported by FF who were heading to Tripolis. Shelling by GF was the answer. An inquiry of Zwara people to the neighbour cities was denied, for they said they are too busy with GF too. 3 days of shelling followed, up to 5 people killed there. Several NATO strikes were done on GF artillery. Al Ajaylat was particulary conquered by GF on early 25.8. Finally things in Tripoli were almost done, so the FF sent an army on 25.8., saying it would be the last battle in the West according several press reports. The objective was not only to support that area but to reopen the only important supply route to Tunisia again because Tripolis lacked on water, food and petrol. On 26.8. Zwara was secured, so FF marched to Ras Ajdir border. Here happened the probably biggest battle, with an overwhelming win for FF. On 27.8. and 28.8. FF conquered the other towns and villages in the area, obviously with little resistance anymore, now from west to east. On 29.8. FF attacked the army bases south of Zwara, with also low resistance. Obviously there was no combat during the last week, not even on Twitter was any reports, so GF were defeated there and FF moved on. 13:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)