Template talk:Other date/2010

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Meaning of option ‘by’

The option ‘by’ is missing a German translation (and other translations, too). I think the reason for this may be that the meaning of this option is not as clear as the meaning of the other options: if I look into an English dictionary I find more than one possible explanation of ‘by’ in a temporal context. Could someone explain what the exact meaning of this option should be? Then we can add the missing translations. Best, --Aristeas (talk) 20:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

"By" option was added in September by user:Vincent Steenberg, as far as I can tell it means the same as "before" option, at least in English. Phrase "by the end of 19th century" mean the same as "before the end of 19th century". See also wiktionary (meaning #2). Shall we redirect it to "before" or does it mean something else in other languages? --Jarekt (talk) 21:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Vincent Steenberg's answer to the question can be found here. The answer didn't satisfy me, but I didn't question it further then. Although I should have. Yes, we should get rid of it. --Slomox (talk) 21:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Auf Deutsch: 'by' bedeutet soviel wie 'gegen' oder 'mit'. 'gegen Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts' oder 'mit dem Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts'. Ist einen Ticken anders als 'vor Ende des 19. Jahrhunderts', aber ich denke nicht, dass das eine eigene Vorlagen-Subfunktion rechtfertigt. Jedenfalls ist die Bedeutungs-Nuance nicht international vermittelbar oder überhaupt einheitlich übersetzbar. Wir sollten uns auf klar definierte Zeitangaben beschränken. --Slomox (talk) 21:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Hold on. It is true that in your example both phrases mean the same, but this can't be said of "by 1900" and "before 1900". It is true that this option is not useful for {{painting}}, by but for {{ProvenanceEvent}} it has proven to be very useful. See for example File:Rembrandt Harmensz. van Rijn 141.jpg. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 21:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
The big problem is that while 'before 1900' can easily be expressed and understood in any language, 'by 1900' can not. I mean, with me and Aristeas we already have two native speakers of German (German and English being very close languages) who have severe problems to understand what is meant by 'by'. Even now I am still not completely sure whether I have understood what you want to denote with the word. E.g. in your File:Rembrandt_Harmensz._van_Rijn_141.jpg I really don't understand why it would be worse if it said 'before 1772'. --Slomox (talk) 21:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I think the difference is that "before 1900" is very precise, while in context of {{ProvenanceEvent}} "by 1900 in Louvre" would mean that the first record of the painting at Louvre is from 1900 so we assume that it arrived there before or during that year. I do not think I will be able to translate that into Polish without a paragraph of text, but it works in English. This option would need to be documented better and probably most languages will use same phrase as "before" option. --Jarekt (talk) 22:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
I know the difference between "by" and "before" is slight, but their meaning is substantially different. When you say "before 1772" you say any date before 1772 except 1772. With the preposition "by" you include the year 1772. I tried to find the proper German translation, but couldn't find one. Wiktionary translates it as "bis", but I don't think that's right. Maybe "Gegen" like you said above. I don't know how "by" translates in Polish and other languages, but wiktionary has a translation table at http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/by#Translations. Maybe that helps. Vincent Steenberg (talk) 22:11, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Wiktionary's 'bis' is plain wrong. 'bis 1900' means 'until 1900' (although in some special cases 'bis' may be meaningful). 'gegen 1900' literally would be 'in the years leading towards 1900', but the reader's reception of the word is more like 'about 1900'. To get the same "inclusive before" the best word would be 'spätestens', I guess. It means "at the latest". Not a perfect match, but at least it becomes clear, that it is inclusive. --Slomox (talk) 23:14, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The current German translation is "spätestens", so I used this as guidance for the Swedish translation "senast", meaning an "inclusive before", or "X or earlier". When I see "1867 or earlier", I apply {{other date|by|1867}}. --LA2 (talk) 10:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Date of sculpture & date of photography

When I photograph a sculpture, I have to mention two dates : the date of sculpture and the date of photography. For example : File:Glorious First of June, 1 June 1794 (Monument to the Republic) 2010-03-23 05.jpg. Can I use {{Other date}} for that purpose ? Teofilo (talk) 10:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The other date template is not for two unrelated dates. Those should be separated. You did this with the authorship already. I myself would mention the date of the photograph as "date" and note the time of the creation of the object in the description. Hekerui (talk) 11:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Parts of decades

As far as I understand, the current template fails to express combinations of or/early/mid/late with decades and centuries:

  • early/mid/late 19th century
  • early/mid/late 1920s
  • 1920s or 1930s

These patterns are not uncommon, and it would be nice to have them covered. The best work-around is to use {{other date|between|1920|1939}} --LA2 (talk) 10:05, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

As a simple solution you can use another instance of 'other date' as a parameter to the template. That should work in most cases. Although there could be problems with languages that require more complex grammar for cases like that.
  • early/mid/late 19th century: {{other date|early|{{other date|century|19}}}} -> early 19th century
  • early/mid/late 1920s: {{other date|early|{{other date|s|1920}}}} -> early 1920s
  • 1920s or 1930s: {{other date|or|{{other date|s|1920}}|{{other date|s|1930}}}} -> 1920s or 1930s
--Slomox (talk) 11:10, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Don’t do that, please. That would not work in many languages. If you think something like this is needed, add another syntax for it. --Mormegil (talk) 19:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
That is beeing done in 100s of pages. --Jarekt (talk) 00:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

This {{other date|begining|1999}} is not working. Geagea (talk) 16:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

{{other date|beginning|1999}} works --Jarekt (talk) 21:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

"Cast" and "Dedicated" ?

Is it possible to use this template for a statue "Cast 1896. Dedicated June 21, 1900" ?

It is for File:Samuel Hahnemann sculpture - closeup.JPG. Teofilo (talk) 04:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not in the scope of this template. But you can create a separate template for this. See {{Lifetime date}} for a similar template. --Slomox (talk) 10:53, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
I created {{Date context}}. What do you think? --Slomox (talk) 15:48, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Template:Circa and Template:From until

Nested use of this template has been causing problems, see Template talk:ISOdate#Expansion depth limit exceeded. I created Template:Circa and Template:From until that fixes the problem by bypassing Template:ISOdate and directly calling Template:Date. This could be done for the other functions of Template:Other date too. For the user the call has become even shorter, e.g. Workperiod = {{from until|{{circa|1880}}|||1890|7}}.--Patrick (talk) 10:26, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

I fixed the problem at Template talk:ISOdate#Expansion depth limit exceeded. --Slomox (talk) 12:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Please, no more date templates. It just adds to the confusion if we have dozen ways to accomplish the same task, and it takes time to clean up. Can we delete those 2 ? --Jarekt (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would have to agree with Jarekt. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 13:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I oppose deletion, because the expansion depth and other counts are lower, so they can be needed. Also, it seems dubious, if year, month and day are available as separate data items, to lump them together and then apply a complicated procedure to separate them again.--Patrick (talk) 13:52, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Add Galician

Please add Galician (gl) translations.

      |gl=de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} a {{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=entre {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} e {{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=anos {{{2|}}}
                    |early={{langSwitch|gl=principios do }}       
                    |mid={{langSwitch|gl=mediados do }}        
                    |late={{langSwitch|gl=finais do }} }} }}
      |gl=século {{Roman|{{{2|}}}}}
      |gl=entre {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} {{#if: {{{3|}}}| e {{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}} }}
      |gl=cara a {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=antes do {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=desde o {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=despois do {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=a principios de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=a mediados de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=a finais de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=primeira metade de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=segunda metade de {{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|-{{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}}} a.C.
      |gl={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|-{{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}}} d.C.
      |gl={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} ou {{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} e {{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}}
      |gl=data descoñecida
         |gl=verán {{{3|}}}
         |gl=inverno {{{3|}}}
         |gl=primavera {{{3|}}}
         |gl=outono {{{3|}}}
      |gl={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=gl}} ({{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=gl}} segundo o [[w:gl:Calendario xuliano|calendario xuliano]])

Thanks! --Toliño Fala aquí comigo 18:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

I just created template:Other date/mirror. Could you edit there and then I, or someone else, will copy you changes. --Jarekt (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
OK, the mirror is ready. Thanks! --Toliño Fala aquí comigo 19:18, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

✓ Done --Jarekt (talk) 19:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Roman numerals for French centuries

Can an administrator replace the line "|fr={{{2|}}}e siècle" by |fr={{Roman|{{{2|}}}}}e siècle ?--Zolo (talk) 07:42, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

✓ Done (Next time, mark your request with {{editprotected}}, please.) --Mormegil (talk) 09:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Sorry, I did not know this template.--Zolo (talk) 10:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

{{edit protected}}

actually it would be even better to have |fr={{ordinal/fr|{{{2|}}}||style=Roman}} siècle--Zolo (talk) 08:44, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
✓ Done --Mormegil (talk) 18:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Decade, Century and Season need to be combinable

How can be combined the type of period with the part of period? The parameters "decade", "century" and "season" need to be combinable with parameters as "early", "between", "ca" etc. --ŠJů (talk) 23:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

early 19th century. --Martin H. (talk) 23:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
You can combine also othe parameters like {{date}} like: from until ({{other date|-|{{date|2010|05|03}}|{{date|2010|10|15}}}}. Geagea (talk) 23:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

this template is becoming too complicated

It is been a while since I looked carefully at this template and it seems to be gaining some extra parameters and getting complicated. There are also multiple ways to accomplish the same what adds even more maintenance issues. There is a {{{part|}}} parameter, and {{{era|}}} parameter. For example {{other date|ca|1000|era=BC}} (circa 1000 BC) seem to be the same as {{other date|BC|{{other date|ca|1000}}}} (circa 1000 BC). I do not think we need both. Also {{other date|early|{{other date|century|19}}}} (early 19th century) seems to be the same as {{other date|century|19|part=early}}. I would like to retire {{{part|}}} and {{{era|}}} parameters. Also when we are at this I would like to propose to change {{other date|season|spring|1999}} to simpler {{other date|spring|1999}}. --Jarekt (talk) 03:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

  • I had added the "part" parameter, because "early" actually is not translated the same way in all languages for days, months, century etc. It is true that it makes the template too and I have no objection to your removing it (I have even avoided to use it).
  • For the era parameter, I think it is easier and more readable to use it than to nest templates but the output should be the same. What could make it a bit complicated is some languages put the era before the rest of the date and some after. I don't think it is excessively complicated but I don't know exactly.
  • I agree with turning "season|spring" into "spring", .--Zolo (talk) 07:01, 17 December 2010 (UTC)--Zolo (talk) 07:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
✓ Done I retired "season" and "part" parameters and created separate helper template {{era}} for a single place where all the era translations. I kept parameter "era" but also added possibility of adding era as a 3rd parameter. For example {{other date|ca|99|era=BC}} would give circa 99 BC. --Jarekt (talk) 16:50, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
It looks good, thanks--Zolo (talk) 09:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Please add Spanish for BC and CE


As I wrote at the mirror page, Spanish translations are:

a.C. for BC: |es={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=es}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|-{{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=es}}}} a.C.

d.C. for CE: |es={{ISOdate|1={{{2|}}}|2=es}}{{#if:{{{3|}}}|-{{ISOdate|1={{{3|}}}|2=es}}}} d.C.

--Zaqarbal (talk) 10:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

✓ Done --Jarekt (talk) 21:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)