User talk:Carminowe of Hendra
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Noticed you are doing a lot of productive work with regards to church categories. However, one minor gripe I have is with the choice of category name for some, basically those dedicated to a single saint. In my experience, the possessive form is more common than the plain form. But that varies from church to church. And to make matters worse, in towns the surrounding district often shares the name... On the other hand, if the dedication is something other than just "St X" there doesn't seem to be these issues.
Two examples - Category:St George, Dean Prior and Category:St Leonard, Exeter. First seems to be St George (the) Martyr. The second is St Leonard's, in the parish (and now district) of the same name. The conflict with the area suggests disambiguation for the church is needed.
A cursory Google check for each church should identify the typical form of the name that applies. It should also find any potential conflict with the school next door, the area, etc.--Nilfanion (talk) 00:57, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for comments above re cat naming. My thoughts on this are:
- St Leonard's, Exeter - reconsidering this one, I agree there is a disambiguation issue with regard to the local area. I've changed the categorisation to Category:St Leonard's Church, Exeter, so that this ambiguity does not exist, and so that if a category is set up in future to deal with the area, it can be at Category:St Leonard's, Exeter with a hatnote to clarify that this broader meaning is intended.
- St George, Dean Prior - while this and this suggest the church's own preferred name might be 'St George the Martyr', the entry on the National Heritage List for England (here) terms it only 'CHURCH OF ST GEORGE'. Identifying as 'the martyr' also doesn't distinguish the dedication as there aren't (as far as I know) other St Georges with whom he might be confused (unlike, for example, Category: St Mary the Virgin, Rewe. But I wouldn't feel strongly against renaming it, if you wish.
- On the more general issue of naming of church cats, do we have a general principle for a preferred form of the name? As I see it, possibilities include:
- St Qwerty, Placename
- Church of St Qwerty, Placename
- St Qwerty's, Placename
- St Qwerty's Church, Placename
- In adding new categories, I've tended to stick to the first of these possibilities (partly because it's shorter, and is consistent with avoiding plural possessives in the case of dedications to multiple saints) - do we need to try to identify which of the four is most used in each case? I'd suggest the difference between the four is trivial, and so a general principle would be more straighforward - though I would favour using the locally-used form of the saint(s) name(s) for ease of recognition (so, for example, Category:St Cyr and St Julitta, Newton St Cyres, even though the higher-level category is Category:Quiricus and Julietta). That said, there are exceptions to general principles, even when using the locally-used name is concerned (the Collegiate Church of the Holy Cross and the Mother of Him who hung thereon comes to mind). Carminowe of Hendra (talk) 19:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware there is no guiding principle for this aspect of category naming - it might be beneficial to get one. The consistent bit is "add the location".
- As the cost involved in matching categories to the local preference is high, and there's plenty more to be getting on with, I don't think its a big deal. Unless when disambiguation is a concern of course. While "St George, Dean Prior" and "St Leonard, Exeter" might both be odd-looking ways to the locals, the first clearly relates to the church but the second doesn't.
- In a perfect world, I think the name should correspond to the common, everyday, name the church and its congregation use. The local community and press will follow that, and that makes it the most recognisable - but it may be hard to identify, so a default position might be good. That would then address things like use of the possessive form, if the local spelling is different, how plural dedications are handled, if "Church" is included and so on. The "Church of" form that English Heritage uses seems to be the formal name of the building, but this rarely seems to be the common name used to describe the church.
- Comparing my view to WP's article naming - "recognisability" is a given whatever form is used. I personally rate "naturalness" most highly of the other traits, so I'd go for whatever the local form appears to be (after research) and not worry about if that matches other categories or not, though if I couldn't identify it I would pick a consistent fall-back.
- Credition Parish Church is unusual, as it seems to be treated similarly to ones like Cathedral Church of St Peter or the Cathedral Church of the Blessed Virgin Mary, though I'm not convinced that is the preferred form. Its quite possible "Holy Cross" is preferred over "Crediton Parish Church" in everyday use in the town.
- A related issue, especially in Cornwall: What do you call the church's category, when its dedication is that the name of the village itself? "St Endellion, St Endellion" is a non starter. IMO "St Endellion Parish Church" is marginally better than the "Church of St Endellion". The first uses the village name to identify, while the second uses the dedication. If the village name is ambiguous then the church and village will disambiguate in the same way, a less painful outcome than anything using the dedication (an ambiguous dedication is more likely in general)...--Nilfanion (talk) 00:37, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
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