User talk:CarolSpears/2009-06

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what categories contain[edit]

I just put some illustrations that I uploaded back into their species category after you removed them from there.

Galleries are the best place to put images which are best looking. They are there for presentation, and for showing the best images that are available at the commons for subjects. Categories are not galleries and all images of a subject should be found there.

Also, it looks like you found the correct species name for one of the images and managed the move of the images and the deletion of the inaccurate category. Thank you for using your time and doing that whole task. The images I have been working with were printed in the 1800s and are paintings from a place I have never been to so confirming the existing identity and even making good decisions about the colors that these images need to be restored to can often be challenging. -- carol (talk) 19:00, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Carol, I thought it was a good idea to only keep the "final"/retouched version in the species category. Otherwise the category appears to contain virtual duplicates (especially in thumbnail view). The other versions can still be found since they're very nicely linked from the final one. However, this isn't much of an issue for me so I won't do it again if you object.
By the way, I really like scientific illustrations and I think you're doing a wonderful job with them. The ones I've seen look as though they've just been painted. Eug (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I felt the same way about categories containing duplicates; I didn't navigate through the galleries here. I still don't often navigate through the galleries here but it does seem to be a natural difference between the two of them, that galleries show the best images available and categories contain them all. And then if you ever want to "call me out" for a problem with my own logic, I am not including the originals in the species categories. That's because I tend to agree with you about the renovations. Those images were very beautiful to begin with so it only takes a little thoughtful cleaning and color adjusting and they are perhaps much closer in appearance to the way they started life.
Thanks for not pushing the fact that what I suggested was not completely the way I am working with the categories here.
All that being said, I am so glad that I am almost done with these damn things. I thought I had a couple of dozen left to renovate and the round up of the remaining was more like ten dozen. Bleh.
 :} -- carol (talk) 16:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

FP Promotion[edit]

Land on the Moon 7 21 1969-repair.jpg
This image has been promoted to Featured picture!

The image File:Land on the Moon 7 21 1969-repair.jpg, that you nominated on Commons:Featured picture candidates/File:Land on the Moon 7 21 1969-repair.jpg has been promoted. Thank you for your contribution. If you would like to nominate another image, please do so.


Best regards, --Karel (talk) 19:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


Hoi, could you please explain what you mean by "ownership" in your comment on the Featured pictures page ?? I am sure that you are aware that for public domain material it is de jure not necessary to acknowledge any "ownership". The reason for acknowledging archives and museums is because this showcases the vital work that they do. Keeping great archives and museums is in all our interest.. :) Thanks, GerardM (talk) 22:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Certainly I will attempt to explain. When more than 70% (in this case, it is possibly more like 90%) of all nominations are from one contributor then that contributor has the appearance of owning the archives.
As mostly an observer of the goings on there, it is as if the review systems are like a stew or soup. There are many cooks contributing to this stew or soup and some of them are really really good cooks and able to contribute great ingredients. When the stew or soup already has enough or perhaps too much of one ingredient (LOC = "Lots of Corn"?) a very good cook would use restrain and not contribute more corn to the soup or the stew. So, the not so good cook gets the title, the acclaim, the special mention.
May I ask when you first started to observe the goings on here and how you found commons? -- carol (talk) 22:55, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I was one of the original people pushing the Commons idea. My user number on Commons is 25. I made thousands of contributions of my own material and I have been an admin for a very long time. There is more, you can do your own research.
The Commons is awesome. Too bad there are so many instances of Users here who at one time could write useful software but now can only use it. -- carol (talk) 00:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Your notion of "lots of corn" is silly. We are actively looking for archives and museums that we can use stuff from. The LoC is a world renowned archive and its prestige helps us to convince other institutions to consider cooperating with us. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 23:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I know what the LoC is, however, I appreciate the reminder. It is also an archive which any person with an internet connection has access to. It contains many many images but not all of them are necessarily deserving of being nominated at FPC. The only reason I responded as I did at the FPC talk page was because at the commons FPC, the LOC archives are owned by one cook who puts too much corn into the soup/stew. This is my opinion about FPC, not about the archives and not about the value of those images to find a place and an good restoration here.
I should mention that I have felt a certain "ownership" to a set of images here. I am nearing the end of restoring them and I am quite mentally tired of looking at them (hence and perhaps visiting talk pages more than usual). I tried to acknowledge, include and communicate with the original uploader and others who have contributed their time restoring images from this one set. I honestly think that the restorations are valuable to the project; I am interested to know any person who has a different opinion of this. The fact that they are not worthy of being featured is obvious and a non-issue. The fact that I am not certain that a more professional restoration might be available in the future is "________" of me. <-- Could you fill in the word there? -- carol (talk) 00:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Understanding (again)[edit]

Hi, how should I understand that? --Eusebius (talk) 07:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

A quick search doesn't show an ogg for the pronunciation of the name of that city, which is too bad. The name of this city to an ear used to hearing English (and I don't think in this case it is limited by locality) will hear the word "No" and not the name of the city. Also, for more personal reasons, I miss the people I knew and was working with when we met in Norway (.no).
It is a nice enough image of the inside of a cathedral, closer to perfect than not. I restrained myself from searching through QI archives to find similar images which would have been feeding my really bad mood about the internet these last few years.
Explanation is good enough and you are not offended by my weird sense of humor there? -- carol (talk) 20:16, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
That's ok but I won't hesitate to ask again next time, because it's apparently impossible for me to understand your humour by myself :-P Thanks for the review. --Eusebius (talk) 08:14, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Please do ask! I would not have given a positive vote if the image had not been good. Meanwhile, I struggle with ideas I have. In the United States, I lived near to the first city which had a non-standard McDonalds restaurant installed in it. It was two stories and the facade and actually the interior also looked more like the surrounding buildings (not exactly though) than all of its brothers/sisters that existed throughout the rest of this country. Until the design of that one was agreed upon and built, all McDonalds restaurants had the same plan and layout. At least, this is what I heard about that one that was located in downtown Ann Arbor, just outside of Nickles Arcade. I think a little about that everytime I see this same image of the interior of a cathedral with the pointed arch. Is it the same image or is it almost the same image? There does seem to be a lot of design redundancies in those buildings. That is what made me think that I should look through the QI archives and collect all of them.... -- carol (talk) 18:52, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Interesting cultural/historical point here: actually, there was a kind of harmonization among all the French gothic cathedrals. In three centuries there were variations in the style of the individual architectural components, but not so much in their presence, their shape or the way they were used. Same layout, same windows at the same place and so on (well, basically). In Germany and most noticeably in England, the gothic style was somewhat different in each building, for instance in the length ratio nave/transept, the size of the windows, the location of the roses, the making of the stained glass... Of course in France there are noticeable differences as well (for instance in the presence/absence of belfries or crossing towers), but basically when you enter the nave, you know you're in a French gothic cathedral. Final disclaimer: this is a non-specialist's vision on medieval architecture. --Eusebius (talk) 12:57, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Designs that are agreed upon and people know how to build -- especially in the days in which travel was difficult. Although, travel being easier and the means to travel being several different industries now, it seems weird to me that we persist with this similar design thing. The United States has some boring roads -- through flat lands that are filled with always the same thing (sand, the same crop, etc), but more recently we have this thing that makes especially expressway travel to be like a cheaply made animation with the same background being used with evenly timed spaces in between. Every 15 to 30 miles of many stretches of highway and there is the same set of stores, mostly with the same facades, the same gas stations, a different road name on the exit sign. I tend to appreciate the non-specialist's eye as much as the specialist. I was starting to see these things you mentioned, myself. :)
-- carol (talk) 18:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
In fact, this description of mine comes back somewhat cyclically. -- carol (talk) 06:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Help for image restoration[edit]


I see that you have been doing image restoration, so I ask you if you could help restoring the images below, and more importantly, explain me how to do it. I was told on QIC candidates than they have "too much noise." Thanks, Yann (talk) 16:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

My experience has been in restoring scans of paintings lately and mostly. These images appear to be scans of photographs who were originally printed on matte paper or paper with a non-smooth surface? This printing option is great for photographs because it seems to offer some protection from fingerprints while holding the print and glare from strong light sources while looking at it. I had a photographer acquaintance who considered this print option to be "more professional" but I thought that was merely an opinion; an opinion that I did not always share with her. I am not sure what the word is for the effect that that paper surface has on scans but the problem is different than noise. "Noise" is more like what would appear on a color television display when it was not tuned to a transmitting channel. Perhaps the solution is similar though.
About the software which reduces noise -- either the software I use is not very good at it or I am not very good with the plug-in. The best noise reduction I have seen here has been from PaintShopPro as used by Lycaon. If you still have the negatives and can get them reprinted on smooth surfaced paper or reprinted directly to a CD, it would be less destructive to the image contents.
So, just to make sure I answered your question -- this type of image repair is not something that I am very good at. 20 to 30 high schoolers in real life, I could "Noise Reduce" except in extreme situations (like after lunch) but these photographs -- no luck. Sorry. -- carol (talk) 21:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
These were digitalized from slides, not paper. I've mentioned that in the description. It was done by a professional, not by me. Yann (talk) 17:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I missed the claim of the source being slides. My eyes tell me different from this, however. I honestly think that perhaps your professional printed them and then scanned them. It is what my eyes tell me. Affordable slide scanners were not so good at accomplishing the task, last time I saw this being done. I would question the "professional". Can you at least see what I am talking about in these scans? -- carol (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I am sure he didn't print them before. He couldn't have the time, and it would cost much more. And he doesn't use an "affordable slide scanner", but a professional equipment (which he showed me), that's precisely why I asked him to do it. Thanks anyway for your attention. Yann (talk) 19:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, I am not myself a professional. That stuff on the image is not grain and it strongly resembles the stuff that was on images which had been printed with on the matte surface paper and scanned. That being said, it is several years since I have seen this. -- carol (talk) 20:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


Would you please look at the current and former versions of File:A Sketch of the Vegetation of the Swan River Colony - Figure 1.png and share with me any advice or opinions that you think might result in me producing better work in future? Hesperian 23:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Warning: I had a very difficult time giving making the transition to being the owner and driver of a car with manual transmission to being the owner and driver of a car with automatic transmission. It was a great car that helped me to make the transition, yet, in the back of my mind, I have this idea that if that great car had had manual transmission, perhaps I would still be driving it....

I put the xcf at my web site. That is GIMP's native format.

I used the Decompose plug-in to separate the original image into grayscaled images of the Red, Green and Blue channels. I made the choice of the three which was the clearest and cleanest and in this case it was Green. I divided that layer into three parts because there was more "paper crud" on the lower part than the middle part and almost none on the upper part. It was not three equal divisions because I opted to not separate the image in the middle of leaves. In the xcf I saved the paths of the selections I used and the Paths dialog can convert them back to selections so you can see them more easily.

I then used the Value tool to get rid of as much of the paper crud as possible without loosing the lines which make the image. That was accomplished by adjusting the white triangle (on the right) and the gray triangle (gamma, in the center) as much as possible and then using a white brush on the little puddles of crud that were remaining.

The xcf has the "merged layers" or what I got from "Copy Visible" as the upper layer which is also the layer which is most visible. The instructions for gimp-1.0 that I first learned with were to always have access to the Layers Dialog. This has been excellent advise and naturally easy for me to follow in all of the years since then (1998, if I remember correctly).

There was a suggestion that I put tutorials here for things like this -- that is a waste of a great web site which I have for these things. I remember some "hints" at that time attempted to remind me that "gimp" in the address triggered some porn filters. If those "hints" and suggestions were at all close to the truth, those are the stupidest and most wrongly directed porn filters if they allow access to this collection and not my web site. I ramble though. If you think a tutorial would be helpful, I would consider authoring one -- but at my web site where it belongs and would get traffic. -- carol (talk) 04:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou. We took similar steps, though I did mine with ImageMagick. Which was agony. I fiddled around with grayscaling a single channel, but ended up grayscaling the 3-channel version I think. I split into two parts, tweaked the values to get rid of the paper crud, but thresholded, merged into a single masks, then used obtained my final result by applying that mask to the original image.
This was a good simple example to learn on. I have since been fiddling around with File:Transactions of the Linnean Society of London, Volume 10 - tab. 3.jpg, and am about to conclude that it is beyond my abilities at present. Hesperian 06:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
My manually working with the levels tool and what my eyes see is what auto-contrast does. It is my opinion that what me and the levels tool does is better than what auto-contrast does is an opinion. The process I used can be scripted and I would have to do many more of these before I could script it efficiently but the script that I wrote would be irritating with pauses for a real person to adjust the image before it continued. I dislike gui like that and I would get more sloppy using that than I have just performing the whole task. Also, the script would be limited to just being effective with one batch of scans. A script that would be more generic and apply to a wider variety of scans would end up just being the same gui that is already there in the applications menu.
I kind of like it that it became obvious that not everything that real beings can do can be replaced by computers -- simple 0 and 1 calculators. The next thing that I need to see is an admission from the people who translate those things that are better for computers to admit that without real experts they have nothing to translate. Where I am right now, the translator gets all the credit -- there is a huge gap in the "experience and knowledge counts for something" area. -- carol (talk) 14:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
May I move your version over mine? Yours is clearly better, there is no need for two, and I have the better title. Hesperian 22:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, no problem. -- carol (talk) 04:14, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, done. The two thumbs above now point at the same place. Very, very strange. Hesperian 04:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Heh. You should perhaps delete mine. Perhaps I will tackle another book of images next year. I like to think that I would have done the Blanco images regardless of what has happened to me these last few years. Well, maybe not if I had been hired to do work like this. I used to have a theory about software writers and really good GNU contributions in that at work they had to do whatever the boss/stockholders/dictator said and that they purged their soul by writing great software for Linux -- that was when the GNU software could only be found for Linux and before the Linux kernel Help stuff started to read like a bunch of singles ads.
I wonder if it will ever be the soul purging idea I thought it would be. -- carol (talk) 04:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
That's what's strange: I did delete yours. Hover over your thumbed image above, see where it links to. Click on it, see where it goes. The code that creates that gallery hasn't changed, it still links to an image that is now deleted. WTF is going on? Hesperian 04:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Ah, that's nailed it. Hesperian 04:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think I did much better with File:A Sketch of the Vegetation of the Swan River Colony - Figure 2.png. I have not yet extracted the full value of your comments on Figure 1, but my technique benefitted a lot from viewing the differences between our respective versions of that figure.

Do you have a working knowledge of linear algebra?

Hesperian 02:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

First, about your image. When I looked at it, I had no urge to redo the image and I suspect that any additional work on my part would be unnecessary or simply competitive due to lack of reason. In short, nice work.
Second and about linear algebra -- are you flirting? -- carol (talk) 05:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
First, thankyou. That is very satisfactory. Second, no. Hesperian 05:23, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
If the answer to that question is yes or no only, my answer would have to be no. I got a B- in Elementary Linear Algebra (story problems, techniques, manually working through the math for the solution) but was not ever in my mind "thinking" like that. More than a decade later and after manually calculating restaurant checks for most of those years, I started regular (non-elementary) Linear Algebra. Working successfully through a complicated proof so many years later was one of the things that made me decide to drop out of college again. So a soft no, because I think that if I had been in a situation that Linear Algebra would have been part of the solution, I could have done it (become familiar with it again and used it) and because I would not recommend me as a tutor for either of those classes.
The question of flirting: it was the closest thing to a pure descriptive language; mathematics was to me, when I was learning it. The precision, the unadulterated definitions and solutions -- this is an idea or a way or a sweetness of exchange which is not to be found in my life ever now. I am sorry to have become "perky" in what might very well be an inappropriate situation. -- carol (talk) 15:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Taxonomy is not...[edit]

for completionists. I'm not going to even start on synonyms. Rocket000(talk) 07:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

My experience with the plant stuff tells me that making all of the genera exist here is a big enough goal that can be completed.
My desire for a more accurately described, less political and purchased world makes me think that the number of species is going to be greatly reduced as they continue with the sequencing of them.
A reasonable goal for commons and browser display would be collapsible areas for stuff like that list without the need for javascript. -- carol (talk) 15:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
What area (family?) in plants needs some work creating genera? Rocket000(talk)
It has been a while since I was doing that stuff. That is my disclaimer. I was using {{genus}} which for each family is a one time look up to find where the family is in the three (it was four) trees that I was displaying. My goal was to make a list that a software could use to create the categories for and apply the appropriate template for. This goal required the lists and the templates.
Category:Ericales <-- it seems like this was on my list. There were genera that were once in this order but moved. It was impossible to make just one order entirely without constructing some of the others.
The Strasburger stuff needs to be removed. ToL here should be ashamed of themselves. -- carol (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok. Here, I made {{taxa}}. I forgot that the "Included ..." part would need to change for each different rank so redirects are out. I think this is the tidiest solution. Rocket000(talk) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Also, there's now {{species2}} for longer lists (I didn't want to put to much bloat in the original template if it's not needed that often). Rocket000(talk) 17:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
They seem to be beautiful; if I knew more of the art of template making I might say that they are beautiful. {{genus2}}? Although, the way that the wiki pages already divide the very populated categories into 200 has some thought behind it. The way they currently show these justified to the last page is eh, some belling and whistling where it doesn't belong? -- carol (talk) 18:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll make that as soon as I run into a case where it's needed. Can you tell me what this would be now? I have like 5 different names it could be. The gallery says it's "Geranium Reichardi" but I think they change the name to Erodium reichardi which is a synonym of Erodium reichardii which is a synonym Erodium chamaedryoides, but then there's also Geranium reichardii. Or maybe it didn't change. Rocket000(talk) 15:13, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
"You are in a maze of twisty passages." <--I played this before it was called Colossal Cave Adventure. Perhaps any project which attempts to actually do anything, in time, reduces itself to this statement. There is a gallery here for Erodium reichardii and UniProt uses that name -- filling in some stuff... carol (talk) 20:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
That is a species which is interesting and has been named and published by botanists, gardners and perhaps homeopaths. Along with the species changing, there are additional "snapshots" in books thoughout the last 300 years. The gardening books and I think I had a Materia Medica which was published around the turn of last century. Almost completely different mindsets for each field of study.... -- carol (talk) 20:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Then I'll go with Erodium reichardii. I think I'm in wrong area. Hemerocallis is so confusing. You can't tell nothing by appearance. Rocket000(talk) 21:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Very cultivated and in my memory, easily lives in the wild also. I tried to look up/determine all of the systems for this and it was a challenge enough to be tackled later. -- carol (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell me how Gymnocarpium dryopteris looks to you? Compare with File:Howiseethings.png. I'm not a web designer or even close so I have no idea how this will look to others. Rocket000(talk) 23:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks beautiful in the browser and it seems beautiful for presenting the information in a < many positive adjectives > way. I am left wondering what could possibly be not yet completed with it. -- carol (talk) 23:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Great! There's some weird issue with the synonym template. If you look at the code on Gymnocarpium dryopteris, you'll see there's no new lines in it. If I add them like how I did with the {{VN}} template there, it gets screwed up. New lines should not affect it at all.. It's been too long, I'm rusty. Rocket000(talk) 00:16, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Template creation and template repair and template replace use. Some of the things that should be done could be done with software. I think that changing the translation table template to {{VN}} could be sanely accomplished with software. Changing "tribe" to "taxa|tribus" also could if it was not for that damn Strasburger crap. The good behavior suggestions today are perhaps being made to the wrong user.... -- carol (talk) 00:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Your posts to Commons talk:Featured picture candidates[edit]

Please follow my advice and avoid interactions with this administrator that you seem unable to maintain a respectful manner with. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

See also Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/User_problems#Incivility_by_User:CarolSpears. Cirt (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I have removed warnings from my talk page before. Please do not restore that.
Where I come from, simply saying "don't" without providing an example of what is more preferred is not acceptable and considered to be an ultimate rudeness and a sign of possible mental disability. So, I will be anxious to see what you suggest would be a more acceptable presentation of my opinion. -- carol (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Please stay calm in your reactions, you use words you better cant use.
I think you are a good user, and I respect your work but we can not accept name calling and other incivility on Commons.
Abigor talk 20:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Heh, I am quite calm, thank you. Is the accusation of lack of calmness the same as "name calling"? The request for the rephrasing was quite polite. Perhaps within an envelope of the requested calmness, those who demand that one user not to something could display an acceptable method, or calmly hush up until able to fullfill this obviously legitimate request. -- carol (talk) 20:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Re:Picture of the Day suggestion[edit]

yes, it is much better to put it on 21st july, Best regards.--Mywood (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Valued images by topics, subdivision of plants[edit]

Hi Carol,

I would like to invite you to an ongoing discussion we are having concerning the breakdown of valued images in subtopic galleries (the analogy to the QI galleries). We are having a little problem there figuring out quite what to do with the plants, and I feel you might have some good insights to add there. Say that we go for a taxonomical breakdown of the plants, which system would be the best to choose? Do you have a suggestion concerning subtopics which will lead to a balanced granularity concerning population of the categories? --Slaunger (talk) 11:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I read a small part of the discussion which is about making a plants gallery which would be analogous to an animals gallery that was either for 1)species which falls outside of the classification system or 2) for the terminology. Perhaps I did not understand what I read but it seems that there is nothing in the discussion about plant classification here.
Perhaps you could be specific about what you thought I could contribute there? Perhaps my problem is that I don't understand the purpose of the galleries which are being discussed.... -- carol (talk) 15:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi Carol,
Thank you for replying. Those are fair questions as the discussions are spread over several threads, and are quite overwhelming. I feel a little bit bad about not giving you a better explanation now. I am a little short of time these days, and just as I had planned to give you the necessary background, I have run out of time again. Sorry about that. ---Slaunger (talk) 21:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

A nice idea that didn't work[edit]

The reason I asked you about linear algebra was because I was thinking of applying certain linear algebra methods to image restoration. I wanted to bounce it off someone. Instead I just went ahead and did it.

The dryandra image I've been working on is essentially beige paper plus dark brown ink plus red-brown rust spots. I figured I could define colours for paper, ink, and rust, then re-express each pixel as "paper + i x ink + r x rust", then throw away the paper constant and the rust value, retaining only the ink value. In linear algebra terms, it boils down to a non-orthogonal projection. The images below demonstrate that the theory was sound, but in practice too much detail was lost.

The rust-only image looks really promising. It picks up nearly all the rust, including some spots in the flower that can barely be seen behind the ink in the original image; and it only picks up the slightest outline of the ink detail. But the "ink-only" image retains lighting artefacts, and, more importantly, a close inspection shows that the loss of detail is unacceptable.

Hesperian 05:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I am very impressed. The humbled kind of impressed even. Did you think of this yourself? I ask because this is the stuff that dissertations are made of.
If your goal is to automate the cleaning of those old yellowed prints, a next step with the Ink only version could make that into a suitable mask. Edges are the important thing for a mask, detail sometimes makes it more complicated to make a good mask. Edge detection might be of assistance to you as well as simply redistributing the gamma level might be the simple approach to making a suitable masking image. It could be a great plug-in that accomplishes a very useful task and if I knew more about printing stuff, the rust finding method might be very useful for specific tasks in that realm also.
Also, if I may, there is such a huge difference between being humbled and being humiliated. Humiliation is distributed by the speedy and greedy because they can. Being humbled is a joyful feeling to me that I get when I see something very great that I did not and probably could not accomplish myself.
Your somewhat speedy demonstration here has been a joy for me to see. Please let me know of any progress or additional steps to success or if I might be of any assistance to you!
Don't stop with these promising results. -- carol (talk) 05:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Thankyou for the kind words; I agree it is pretty nify, but I would find it hard to believe that it hasn't been done before. If you want to code up a plugin, I can either explain the underlying principle to you, or give you some pseudocode. Hesperian 08:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm presently uploading new versions over the top of the above images. The first time around I was focusing on the concept, and made some bad decisions with respect to the image. For example I chose a typical paper colour, and this was responsible for most of the clipping. This time I chose a very conservative paper colour. Darker areas of the paper are now more likely to be treated as ink, but on the other hand very faint ink is less likely to be treated as paper and thus clipped away. The overall jizz is much the same, but the faintest ink lines now look a little more like lines instead of slightly-higher-density salt and pepper. Overall the improvement is only very slight, but to my mind it is the difference between acceptable and unacceptable.

As you suggested, I will proceed by turning the "inkness" image into a mask. Hesperian 03:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Commons seems determined to serve the same image no matter what version I request, so you might have to take my word for it. Hesperian 03:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Thumbnail updating can be a problem. I was using the browser gui to "view image" and when I reload that most of the time, the thumbnail updates. JPEG can be more of a problem than png for that. I had to reupload the same image, recently (this month) a few times recently to regenerate some thumbnails from uploads in January. Using ctl-reload hasn't worked in a long while. -- carol (talk) 03:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
It was honestly very fun to watch the stuff working in the layers dialog of the software. I am curious to know the reason you became involved in the plant stuff at wikipedia -- assuming that you have not been separated from your books and stuff like I was.... -- carol (talk) 03:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
No, that particular indignity has not been inflicted upon me to date. I am not quite sure. Plants was just one of many interests, then all of a sudden it took off. Hesperian 03:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for the note - unfortunately Uniprot and the Flora of China are out of date here; several papers have shown that Michelia is nested within Magnolia. If Michelia were to be retained as a distinct genus, you'd need to split Magnolia up into at least 6 or 7 different genera, involving many of the most popular species (e.g. Magnolia acuminata and Magnolia × soulangeana are both more closely related to "Michelia" spp. than they are to Magnolia virginiana). See: Sangtae Kim, Chong-Wook Park, Young-Dong Kim, and Youngbae Suh, 2001. Phylogenetic relationships in family Magnoliaceae inferred from ndhF sequences. Am. J. Bot. 88: 717-728 pdf file; Hiroshi Azuma, José G. García-Franco, Victor Rico-Gray, and Leonard B. Thien, 2001. Molecular phylogeny of the Magnoliaceae: the biogeography of tropical and temperate disjunctions. Am. J. Bot. 88: 2275-2285 pdf file; Figlar & Nooteboom (2004). Notes on Magnoliaceae IV. Blumea 49: 87-100 abstract. This is quite widely accepted now, particularly by the Magnolia Society, the main international group that deals with Magnolias. Hope this helps! - MPF (talk) 13:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Genera of Ampelozizipheae[edit]

Was this supposed to be a template? Rocket000 (talk) 20:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I would like to think that I found (and repaired) more of these mistakes than I left -- difficult and cumbersome to prove though. Thanks for pointing it out! -- carol (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
No problem. Now, I need your help with something. Check out my latest creation: {{taxabox}} (example use). I'm trying to make all these templates to look good together, but I'm not as skillful in the styling department of templates. I need your input. Rocket000 (talk) 04:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems to be causing the wrapped part of the taxonomy navigation to overlap the unwrapped part (the stuff above it) but other than that it is very beautiful. -- carol (talk) 06:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion?[edit]

[1] Rocket000 (talk) 18:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the VN discussion[edit]

Hi Carol,

When I read this opposed to non-productively complaining and not willing to even attempt to learn how things are done, just expressing complaints and undoing the work of others...

as an immediate followup to a post of mine I got the impression that you were expressing a dislike and/or resentment of my general conduct within this area and to my involvement in the particular thread. However, I may as so many times before have misunderstood your intention with those remarks. Therefore I would like to know very explicitly if you had me in mind when writing those phrases? Thank you.

--Slaunger (talk) 22:39, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The edits of yours where I am requesting this clarification are in this dif. It seemed a little unclear in my initial post here. --Slaunger (talk) 22:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


Though I'm afraid at this moment I have three books with several dozen engravings each uncompleted, plus three old newspapers, and another couple books - Flavius Josephus and Treasure Island, as it happens - going through the postal system. I'm pretty set for books just now =) Adam Cuerden (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Removing comments from other people's talk pages[edit]

It was brought to general attention that you removed a comment from User:EncycloPetey's talk page. I could see no reason for that, and since you and EncycloPetey have a rather agonistic relationship, I don't think that was very wise. I have restored the comment, but if you'd like to comment on why you did that, you can join the discussion at Administrators' noticeboard. Samulili (talk) 20:48, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably no more comments needed, Tryphon seconded by me has explained why this was hardly a controversial edit. Removing a un-needed bot message as you did is hardly against any policy, but if EncycloPetey want to keep it on their talk page for whatever reason let's leave it at that (Samulili restorded the message...). Finn Rindahl (talk) 21:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
It was a bot warning about an upload which had no categories. When I looked at the file, the file had been vandalized. I undid the vandalism which also undid the bot template and removed the bot warning from the talk page as it was inaccurate. The way I understand Petey and his problems is that I am not to leave messages there -- and I didn't. Do you know that there are real problems out there? Like (for instance) Debian dishing out bad drivers.... -- carol (talk) 04:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
Hmph! -- carol (talk) 04:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)



I followed your suggestion, and added a separate edited version. Regards, Yann (talk) 19:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if this will help the image qualify. What I do know is that now it will be easier for Eusebius‎ (or whoever tallies the votes and marks it for how the bot will manage it) to determine what to do with it.
The easier it is to be impartial and not have to dig through the history to try to decide which version got which votes -- the easier it is to get through that task. I did not really do that job for that long compared to many -- it was things that seemed like little things (like this) that made my time with it seem to be much longer than it really was.
I appreciate the additional effort and I probably don't appreciate it as much as the workers there now will.... -- carol (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Blocked because of harassment[edit]

Hi Carol, I have blocked you for a week because of your harassment on Multichill's talk page here. This is clearly an intimidation attempt, implying that you are prepared to ruin his life, should you get to know his name. This is totally unacceptable, please refrain from such comments in the future. I suggest you use your time-out wisely and think about whether you are pleased with the way you are treating other people. If you continue this behaviour, I am afraid you will have to leave us in the near future. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 14:06, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Heh, what can I do? I warn about problems. I am not the problem. Can you list to me problems that I might cause that person who is in another country and whose name is unknown and oh, and the fact that I do not have access to checkuser stuff here? I am just curious of the perception of threat that me continuing to edit at the wikicommons poses to that much more enabled user. Perhaps the enabling of people who are more responsible and less intimidated is an approach that should be considered by elite internet management.
Then again, maybe I don't really want to know what kind of threat I am to that enabled user. -- carol (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, I GET IT! I should have encouraged him to tell others his real name! Unblock me and I will reverse what I wrote, thereby not posing as such a threat to this enabled user. But wait, does that make sense?
Can you make sense of what you did being the proper reaction to what I wrote? If I were to dream that a person might be in trouble if others knew his/her real name, I become the threat if I tell that user not to share it. That is what you are implying with your block?
Is there some precedent for this kind of action? -- carol (talk) 16:04, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
"I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life" is an obvious threat. It sounds like something Tom Hagen would say. We're not doing a Godfather film here. Wknight94 talk 17:18, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, cooooome, on. Is anyone here seriously thinking that Carol is the equivalent of a mobster bride that is out to ruin Multichill's life?! Anyhow, this just made me curious about what that little theory is that carol has been cooking up... --Dschwen (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
@Wknight94, Just take it with a grain of salt (or with a spoonful if you wish). Lycaon (talk) 19:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
@Dschwen, I don't know CarolSpears at all but from that edit, I am totally thinking exactly what you said - seriously. Comments like hers are what cost us good contributors. If you'd like to give some alternate context to disspell what I am thinking, please do. Lacking that, my first impulse would have been to block indefinitely. Wknight94 talk 19:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
We lose good contributors that way too. (Indefinitely!? Wow...) Rocket000 (talk) 03:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
I do not have access to checkuser stuff here

Interesting. Would you be an admin on another Wikimedia project with such tools? - ALLSTRecho wuz here @ 20:35, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

  • All this looks surrealistic to me, both Carol's "treath" and the overly repressive reaction to it (unless I only know part of the story?). Is anyone really convinced that Carol could harm, in any conceivable way, that user? Carol is very often enigmatical or even unintelligible, but never menacing. Please reconsider. Alvesgaspar (talk) 20:36, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Similar comment as I made to Dschwen above - please offer an alternate explanation or context. Otherwise, I only see one intention with the edit she made. To insinuate that she knew something about Multichill's real life that, combined with his real life name, would "ruin your life". I don't see anything that would have prompted such a note. Is her note an answer to someone's question but I haven't found the question? Wknight94 talk 21:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Uhm, enigmatical and unintelligible should be kind of a hint here. Sure you can try to see a veiled threat to Multichills life here, but you not knowing Carol at all probably doesn't make you the best judge. Should I be forced to come up with an alternate explanation? Sometimes AGF can mean just not to jump to the worst conclusions. You don't need an alternate explanation for that. Well, I don't want to bagetellize this, it is bad enough that Multichill felt harassed or uncomfortable. Is the solution blocking carol? Well, it certainly is a solution, and probably the easiest. Is it the best? Probably not, after all she is a productive and - contrary to the picture that gets painted on AN/U - mostly friendly contributor. The far better solution would be if people would just ignore carol's comments if they do not clearly understand them. Maybe being overly enigmatic makes people feel stupid. People don't like that. --Dschwen (talk) 21:42, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Personally, to AGF, I need to be able to dream up any alternative explanation for the comment. I cannot. I have looked for places where they edit together and Multichill may have asked a question. Maybe where Multichill asked for some personal advice from Carol to elicit such a comment? Nope, nothing. Give me any plausible explanation for the comment and I'll be happy to back down. But if such a comment had come from a new editor where I had more admin experience, I would have indefblocked without thinking twice. Telling someone - with no provocation or purpose - that they know something that could "ruin your life" is the type of thing that makes law enforcement people take notice. Wknight94 talk 21:58, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
It's really up to Carol to acknowledge the strongly inappropriate tone of that post in the eyes of most people. At the administrators' noticeboard consensus is near-unanimous for a block, with several calls for blocking considerably longer than a week. Carol, if you meant anything beneficial by that post please explain the intention and I will unblock you myself--but I do want to see you acknowledge that it it looked very problematic and pledge to avoid creating that kind of an impression in future. Let's clear things up and put the past behind, if that's possible. Durova (talk) 22:01, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok, let me quote her "harrassment" out of order:
  • I don't want to know your real name.
  • I don't want you to tell your real name to anyone
  • I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life.
I don't quite see where you get that she threatens that she knows something that could "ruin [his] life".Where is the threat. Am I missing something? --Dschwen (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
In any case, I wished carol would chose the path of less resistance from time to time. By now it should be clear that some of her more cryptic comments are causing irritation and lengthy messes like this. --Dschwen (talk) 22:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
My query is directed to Carol. Durova (talk) 22:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Will be afk for about an hour and a half. So in case she replies in the interim I might be just a little while before following up. Best wishes--hoping we can clear this up. Durova (talk) 22:28, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Uhm, yeah... ...that was pretty clear, but thanks for restating it. Did I mess up the indenting? No, looks ok to me. --Dschwen (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
Dschwen, an oblique personal attack is still a personal attack. They find frequent use in political campaigns. On Commons, they are unhelpful, unnecessary, and unfriendly and should not be tolerated. Walter Siegmund (talk) 23:38, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Are these people really taking themselves seriously? If Multichill is indeed Bin Laden (I guess he can't be Saddam Hussein, that one passed out already) one week's block won't prevent Carol to try unmasking him again... Alvesgaspar (talk) 22:53, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, let me be clear about this one thing. In the mid-1980's I found myself embarrassed in the United States when a scientist from the Netherlands was visiting and making fun of me and a few friends for "stepping away" from the rest of the party and from the view of the rest of the party-goers so that we could enjoy some non-alcoholic refreshment. That is what happened when I met a real Netherlands person.

This is what happened when I suggested that "perhaps" MultiChill should review his ability while doing whatever substance he/she was doing. User_talk:Multichill/Archives/2008/September#a_no-brainer.3F I come from an multi-cultural, multi-lingual environment where the people who really can write software (or accomplish whatever it is they are attempting to accomplish) can take a little criticism, review their work and either ignore the criticism or deal with it and improve.

Should I apologize if I think that MultiChills bots are (some of their functionality) renamed bots that were already written and just not running here now. A more honest apology would be to say "I am sorry that MultiChills bots make me think that" because if they worked differently or better, I would not think that. Being extremely sensitive when I mention anything about authoring the bots or writing them to work better makes me think it even more. An improvement in the software would make me think differently about this. I am sorry? I am the problem?

What age and gender is the advice to manage your intake of things wrong? Perhaps it is advice that is not addressing the actual problem but when is this ever not good advice?

My recent questioning of MultiChills ability to actually author software is here: Commons_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#Vote:_Uppercase_vs._lowercase_species_sort_keys it is with the source to an unwritten wikibot since last November. It is one line short of being a template. Many of MultiChills bots need a lot of redundant manual effort before "the bot" can work. Once again, MultiChill is sensitive and not writing or improving the software.

How many of the people commenting here have actually met a person from the Netherlands?

I would like to know the age and gender in which telling a person to manage their intake of any substance, legal, illegal, over the counter, perscription, classified as food -- any substance which might be harming their judgement -- what kind of person is this not good advice for?

Will there ever be a day in which instead of becoming sensitive, MultiChills software will improve?

Thank you for taking time from your day. Durova, you can write here but I don't want you to feel welcome to write here. It would be ladylike or gentleman like if you would "bow out" of expressing any opinion of me here or anywhere. That is the only opinion I have of you and it is technically not "of" you but "for" you. -- carol (talk) 00:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, that about wraps it up. For people who suffer from tl,dr: that translates as "no". Durova (talk) 01:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, Carol, the reason you are blocked is because you stated your belief that you knowing Multichill's identify would lead to Multichill's life being ruined. Since the only way your knowledge can impact the real world is through the agency of your own actions, this statement is equivalent to "if I could, I would ruin your life." When coupled with "I don't know your identity and I don't want to know", it is probably not a threat. But there seems to be consensus that it is extremely intimidating, and therefore harassment. That is the issue here. The extent of Multichill's coding abilities, and the manner in which Multichill receives criticism, are irrelevant. Hesperian 01:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

So, if an admin decided that when you talk about "maps" you are actually being rude and talking about "spam" and blocks you for being rude, this perception is going to be understood and equally endorsed by you? -- carol (talk) 01:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
No. What is the analogy? Hesperian 01:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Dschwen or Alves or Lycaon, can you oppose the "Petrified Tree" image for me because it is "not sharp"? I actually think that this has more to do with that. I also think that it takes much more skill to make a "Quality Image" without abuse of admin tools.... -- carol (talk) 01:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

mh, the log itself is pretty sharp. The DOf is low though, so the horizon is oof. --Dschwen (talk) 01:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
There was an image of a mountain (a California mountain) that was photographed from a distance which was as sharp as that which was declined for being not sharp. The stuff in the lake looks like putty to me. -- carol (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Dschwen or Alves or Lycaon (or anyone who can edit this wiki right now) could you change the mis-spelled "week" to "weak" in this CR: Commons:Quality_images_candidates#File:Allium_triquetrum_.28inflorescense.29.jpg. And then revisit the petrified tree and consider the DOF problems? -- carol (talk) 11:03, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you :) -- carol (talk) 17:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


Okay CarolSpears, so what are your "maps"? What did you actually mean by your comment? What caused you to suddenly write it? Wknight94 talk 01:27, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
How does a person via wiki interface suggest that another user should consider their behavior? Your question about the maps can be answered if you run through the edit history at Commons_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#Vote:_Uppercase_vs._lowercase_species_sort_keys. I was blocked before MPF left that last comment there. I have taken myself not so seriously here but my work and contribution very seriously. Some of my image reviews can be a little silly, but that should be not so bad a place to be silly. The contribution which could and should be permanent has been taken very seriously.
The whole conversation there with the tree of life eh, people is so rude anyways. I have made templates that will do everything there that they are discussing. This makes me continue to think that MultiChill is incapable of authoring software and only capable of using already written software. See Category:Allium, Category:Allium sativum and Category:Allium sativum Category:Allium triquetrum. To me, the bot authors here could be authoring software and let people like me, who are willing to research things do that. Instead, MultiChill is sensitive, not authoring. MPF knows about the templates. Everyone in that discussion knows about the templates.
Deep in my soul and heart where things matter and regardless of anything else I say or write (some of my apologies can be a little weird) I believe that if your contribution is not at least an effort to be good and productive and within the scope and towards the goal that you should be a little concerned. The fact that MultiChill was frightened but such a thing and that some admin here thinks that blocking me from editing will protect MultiChill, eh, hmm. Does that speak for itself?
Do you think that in the week in which I am blocked, MultiChill will author a software that does something that previous software here didn't already do? -- carol (talk) 02:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
"As I understand it, Carol, the reason you are blocked is because you stated your belief that you knowing Multichill's identify would lead to Multichill's life being ruined. Since the only way your knowledge can impact the real world is through the agency of your own actions, this statement is equivalent to "if I could, I would ruin your life." When coupled with "I don't know your identity and I don't want to know", it is probably not a threat. But there seems to be consensus that it is extremely intimidating, and therefore harassment. That is the issue here. The extent of Multichill's coding abilities, and the manner in which Multichill receives criticism, are irrelevant. Hesperian 01:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)"
But that is not the case. To the best of my knowledge, I have never ruined anyones life nor wanted to. You must have something more than just that statement to support your projection of my statement into your perception of what I meant.
By the way, what do you think about those templates? Are they offensive to the tree of life people because they diffuse the arguments about which system to use and that is a large part of the lack of acceptance or even conversation about them?
I often worry about eh, I don't want to say "karma" but the equilibrium of things. Equilibrium is not the greatest word for this, but I really think that taking your work more seriously than you take yourself is always a better approach to anything. It will not upset the equilibrium, it doesn't leave a wrong footprint for anything but yourself. If blocking me for a week will give MultiChill enough whatever to author a bot that does something new and something productive here and goal oriented and multi-wikipedia serving, then leave me blocked! Yay! -- carol (talk) 02:33, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
But that is not the case. Now we're getting somewhere. Since the obvious interpretation is incorrect, do be so kind as to explain as clearly as possible what you meant by "I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life."[2] Hesperian 02:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Too early in my day? If that message had been left on one of my more anonymous nicks here, I would have (honestly) taken a few moments to evaluate my recent edits first and total edits second to consider if this was something that I should be concerned about. A more honest and thorough answer would involve me being specific about some very bad/wrong things that have happened to me in the last few years and what I am kind of certain of but without proof an abuse of technology. I have written about it though, at a more appropriate place to write things like this, and recently. I put there things about being over-compensated and/or over-valued. I wrote something about being worth 2 or more times me and that projecting to be 2 or more times some of the wrongs I have endured in the last few years.
If you touch a spot on a body, some place which is non-controversial to touch like a leg or an arm -- and there is not an open spot there, it should feel like a touch. If you touch it and it causes pain or sensitivity, then there probably is a wound or a problem there.
Did I, early in my day today, touch a problem? -- carol (talk) 03:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Leaving aside the issues with Multichill, which are irrelevant here, I read the above as "That is not what I meant. I can't explain here that I was thinking when I wrote it, because in order to describe my state of mind I would have to provide details of my personal life, and I do not wish to do so. But it was not my intent to threaten or intimidate Multichill. It was early in my day and I guess I expressed myself poorly, and everyone else jumped to conclusions about what I meant." Is that what you meant to say; and is that the best you can do? Hesperian 03:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it is the best I can do. I could perhaps point at my web site, clearly state that the recent conditions in my real life are a unified effort to "not give me what I want" and provide examples about how a mere turn of the tongue (changing of the words) is the way to get what I want, if it is available and if I can afford it -- I could do all of that. However, there are very strong indications here that doing that would undermine one of the more important "things I don't want" that I listed at my web site -- which was People Reading My Web Site Who Are Not Able to Determine A Witty Sarcasm when provided one. Well, or something like that. Things I thought about California from watching the movies: it is always warm and brightly sunny. Many people are with alternative life style choices. All residents are magazine/movie/television physically beautiful. Multi-culturalism and openmindness have made Californians to have a depth of thought/situation. Things I was wrong about: Read above list.
Dschwen could perhaps provide a similar list of expectations of the United States "Midwest" (a poorly named location) that was provided by the different publication outlets which turned out to be simply inaccurate.
I don't want to twist a phrase to get my greatest desire in this current childish situation. I am homesick.
About this specific situation. If I were to say "I want to know MultiChills real name" it is a lie. It is typed here as an example. This stupid situation though makes it interesting to type "I don't want you to tell your real name" when you add this to the equilibrium stuff I wrote about before regarding contribution.

Interesting: "If that message had been left on one of my more anonymous nicks here, I would have (honestly) taken a few moments to evaluate my recent edits first and total edits second to consider if this was something that I should be concerned about." Is that an admission that you run other undisclosed accounts, and post on them in a similar manner to "I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life."[3] ?? Durova (talk) 03:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I am aware of at least one other account operated by Carol. It appears benign. If you want me to, I will pass this information on to Herby. Hesperian 03:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Her wording "one of my more anonymous nicks" suggests that there are others, and that she'd contemplate posting this way on them. Not something I'd like to suppose her capable of, but neither was the statement "I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life." At this point I don't know where her boundaries are; she certainly isn't stepping back from the line. Durova (talk) 03:32, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Neither of us are uninvolved. I will email Herby. Hesperian 03:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Durova, why do you hate her so much? --Dschwen (talk) 03:49, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Dschwen, please consider withdrawing that post. It is neither true nor helpful. The offer to unblock on reasonable terms should be more than enough to disprove such a suspicion, which I would like to have supposed was beneath you. Bear in mind: no one else has offered to lift this block, and several people called for its extension. If I hated her, surely I would have joined that chorus. Durova (talk) 04:00, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
No, your "offer" was a pretty transparent attempt at cornering carol, by either forcing her to make a confession to something which she (and several other people her) do not believe to be quite true, or by ignoring that "olive branch" make her appear ungrateful and unwilling to resolve matters. --Dschwen (talk) 11:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that aggressive bad faith reduces the chances of the olive branch succeeding to near zero. If you had taken the time to ask I could have showed you examples of editors I'd formerly sitebanned whom I later mentored and brought back, and formed good working relationships with. It's about the project, not the politics. And it's very disappointing to see someone of your experience lose sight of that. Especially here, where an active yet difficult editor has a chance to reform. Durova (talk) 16:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
"aggressive bad faith", huh, so you got it all figured out. Well, yes, this whole thing here is making me a bit aggravated, just like failure of rational discourse always tends to make me feel. So replace was a pretty transparent attempt with could be interpreted as an attempt, in fact I cannot possibly know whether this was your intention or just a good faith attempt based on your perception of reality, where these charges that are brought up against carol do actually have some merit. And admittedly it seems that I preached water and drank wine by repeating that same mistake that spawned this whole mess: interpreting someone's comment in the worst possible way instead of assuming a little good faith. For that I'm truly sorry and would like to apologize to you. --Dschwen (talk) 16:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
  1. Herby knows my other less obvious nick.
  2. Durova doesn't know me enough to have any opinion of me one way or another and if Durova does, Durova might be a stalker and some action about a real problem should be considered.
  3. I have a question about what I consider to be inconsistent abilities from Hesperian. How does a person know enough about graphics to be able to author complicated transformations for imagemagik, use windows and additionally never having seen a clonetool and what it can accomplish? -- carol (talk) 04:07, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    Perhaps that person knows very little about image restoration, but a great deal about data; and all their progress in image restoration rests on the single insight that digital images are just data, and are vulnerable to the same algebraic and statistical techniques as other data sets. Perhaps, as a result, that person wastes a hell of a lot of time and energy reinventing the wheel, but once in a blue moon does something clever and original. Hesperian 04:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    It is, however, easy enough to "project a problem" -- that you are not one individual but instead several and that the several people should be approved for administrative enabling and not just the one "Hesperian". It is a projection which is not based on very many facts but it would at least have more facts and history to make it than the projected problem which I am currently blocked for.
    When a mind always projects into fear or worse, into the gutter (meaning a mind that sees perversion in every persons activities and communications), what is the danger? What that person thinks they see or the brain which the person is using (or, that person). -- carol (talk) 10:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    One bdifference between the two situations that you are drawing parallels between, is that when you asked me for an alternative explanation, I gave you one. A clear one. One that actually makes sense. Immediately. Hesperian 11:59, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    I dislike this addition, Carol.[4] Would you redact it please? Durova (talk) 04:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    It might be better just to ignore this page for while. People are always going to say things you may or may not like, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it. Rocket000 (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC) Edit: That's sounds a little harsh now that I've reread it, I didn't mean it that way. Rocket000 (talk) 05:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    It's a very serious accusation of malfeasance and it's unsupported by any evidence. Multichill was criticized at the admin board for not discussing his reaction to her post; now I'm criticized for discussing it. Exactly what model of interaction are other people supposed to follow when interacting with this individual? One consistent standard, please. Durova (talk) 05:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    What do you mean by one consistent standard?! Multichill and you don't share the same role in this. --Dschwen (talk) 11:48, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Eh, where is the critisim here? Also, Durova, a request from me for the way you communicate while writing on this talk page. Please, while here, attempt to communicate without using links to diffs. Allow people (at least while here) to express their opinions without the constant demand from you that they "retract" them or whatever. Retracting an opinion -- do you seriously think that this changes the opinion from the person who is expressing it? The thing that I miss the most in my life for these last six or seven years is honesty. Over-reaction and abuse of power is no replacement for honesty, in my most humble opinion and real life experiences. -- carol (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

What is the desired outcome from this block? Is it being obtained? -- carol (talk) 10:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say the desired outcome is that you don't say things to people that sound intimidating. Instead, much of this discussion has been trying to extract an alternate explanation for your original comment for a possible unblock, but that hasn't happened to my satisfaction (Hesperian seems to be getting some meaning from your responses but I think he's being a bit creative with your phrasing). So unless you can start giving some straight answers, I think we're just about done here and we'll see you in a week. Wknight94 talk 11:40, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
@Wknight94, I concede that was largely speculative. Hesperian 12:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
  • As a newbie in these blocking issues, there is something I still don't understand. What is the purpose of this specific block: to punish the user for the inappropriate behaviour or to prevent her from concretizing the threat? Since no real harm has been done to the project and the second possibility seems fantastic, there must be something else. Is it the past history of Carol? If that is the case, then it should be clearly stated and dealt with. I fail to see any objectivity in this kind of empty and verbose speeches (starting with Carol's). Alvesgaspar (talk) 13:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
    I think it is about neither. I think it is about upholding basic community standards of user interaction. Hesperian 01:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Asked and answered... she made what sounded a lot like a threat to "out" someone - and thereby "ruin" his life - and rather than give an alternate explanation for the post, has simply talked in circles ever since. You say "the second possibility seems fantastic" but how do I know that's true? Several people here have implied the same thing but none have given any alternate explanation for the post. Please feel free. In my experience, threats to out someone's real-life identity and ruin their lives happen on a routine basis and are often legitimate threats. Not as fantastic as you might think, and definitely needs to be taken seriously. Wknight94 talk 14:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
You are still insisting on that alternate explanation bussiness? As I wrote above: a wrong expanation isn't true just because no other explanation has been provided yet. This is faulty logic. The alternate explanation is: this was not a threat and carol does not intend to ruin Multichills life. What's the proof for that? Wrong question! Carol does not have to prove her innocence, you have to prove she is guilty, and I just don't see that alleged threat in what she wrote. --Dschwen (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
You don't. I do. So we agree to disagree. If someone I have a bad history with with walks up to me and points in my face and says, "I could ruin your life if I wanted to", I am going to take that as a threat. If you're saying you would just consider that and respond, "You're right, you could. Good point." and then smile and go about your day, then I would have to call shenanigans. Wknight94 talk 15:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, if only she had said that, then you'd actually have a point. --Dschwen (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh that's right, what she said is more akin to "Someone could ruin your life." Hardly makes a difference. Wknight94 talk 17:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
  • If that is the case then the block will not work, even if it is forever. Carol may always come in from any IP, as an anonymous user, and ruin the user's life by shouting his/her name... Sounds even more ridiculous, doesn't it? It appears we are then back to the first possibility (which was my point in the previous comment, by the way): this is a punishment for Carol's improper behaviour. Alvesgaspar (talk) 14:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, you are fast-forwarding to a total full banishment. That is what happened to her at en.wp. In many cases, they actually do work. She cannot come in from any IP - she couldn't come in from my IP for example. People's ability to change IPs vary by location, etc. I've had success in stopping banned users from shouting things by use of the abuse filter. And even if we can't stop her from shouting one person's name, we can at least stop her from interacting with the rest of the community and choosing other targets to shout at. So no, it doesn't sound ridiculous at all. Regardless, you'd have to ask the blocking admin for sure, but I would think the block is to at least send a message that real-life threats are not going to be tolerated. This block is for a week. If she does it again, the next may be for a month, or three months, or forever. It may depend on community discussion. The consensus at COM:AN/U is that she actually got off pretty light this time. Hopefully she knows now that this is serious. Wknight94 talk 15:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
No matter what your administrative level is nor how much your opinion matters more than others -- it is not allowed that you remove things I place on my talk page which are non-offensive and also edit aids.
Acronym links to managerial toys are not allowed on this talk page. It my talk page and not an administrative playground. Understand that you are not communicating with an admin here, you are communicating with a user who has made many positive contributions who is deserving of communicating with people who have the ability to type whole sentences without the childish "oh, aren't we all so whatever" acronym crap. Image acronyms are allowed, however. "jpg", "png", "GIMP". That is what I do. If you do not respect and understand that, you do not belong here. -- carol (talk) 17:24, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

@Wknight94, your indignation is based on an interpretation you put on her words. Carol is very well known here for being elliptical, enigmatic or even unintelligible and applying cold logic to her words is often not a fruitful activity. You have twice now referred to an indefinite block, even though you said above that "I don't know CarolSpears at all", which does concern me. Try not to get too worked up about this. Read Commons:Staying mellow again. It's what really distinguishes us from Wikipedia, you know. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Not being indignant, just answering questions. And the interpretation is not only mine, but is shared by several others at COM:AN/U including the blocking admin (which, let's remember, was not me). I would not be the one to do any block here, so you don't need to be concerned about me. I'm not the type to go rogue. But considering the ending at en.wp, we shouldn't put such a possibility out of mind. Wknight94 talk 17:01, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
The people who need to be reminded about this staying mellow are the ones who accuse fellow administrators of hatred and politics. Carol has asked me to refrain from using links or diffs here, so if necessary this can migrate to a different venue for substantiation. There appears to be a meme at Commons that Carol was sitebanned from en:wiki due to her conduct. That meme is mistaken. She was banned as one of the most prolific plagiarists and copyright violators in site history. Her copyvios were so extensive they actually prompted a change in site policy, and much of her research was simply wrong. She would read about the geology of one mountain range in Africa and arbitrarily apply the same geology to a different range on the opposite side of the continent. With insects she jumbled information from different genera and when questioned replied that she 'didn't think the bugs could tell the difference.' For a long time the community was understanding toward her (myself included) because she was so prolific we presumed she had to be a net positive. When people rolled up their sleeves, though, and looked into what she was actually doing--the net result was that nearly every contribution she had made needed to be nuked from the site. That solution was neither devised nor implemented by me. Think how difficult it is to get a clear answer from her and suppose the same meandering thoroughly infects her content work: that's what a team of editors discovered at en:wiki, and despite repeated polite attempts to engage with her she neither acknowledged any problems nor refrained from continuing to create them. We were left with no alternative but sitebanning, which is sad to do with someone so hardworking. She presumed it was personal, which it was not, and unfortunately several respectable contributors at Commons have accepted that explanation at face value. There's a chance her work here might be better: the one thing we could retain of her work at en:wiki was taxoboxes: those she seemed to get right. Twice in the past I have urged fellow Commons contributors to make a survey of her uploads for policy compliance. No one has undertaken that yet, which leaves me with the uncomfortable hunch that you may be delaying a monumental cleanup. If that hunch is right, I assure you I will not assist with fixing it. I've endured too much abuse for even expressing concern. Durova (talk) 17:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh, my problem with trying to work with what was already there:
Nice example. -- carol (talk) 17:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
It's better to have redlinks than information that constitutes intellectual property theft and/or is demonstrably wrong. Durova (talk) 18:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
leaves me with the uncomfortable hunch that you may be delaying a monumental cleanup... ?! Ok, what? Conspiracy theory? Please, feel free to look into carol's contributions and bring it up if you find something solid. This inuendo has no place in a discussion like this. Also you are bringing up stuff from the past, just like you did during the bogus complaint about the removed vandalism/bot notice. The en.wp story is done, finished, old news. You mentioned your belief in reformed siteblocked users, and yet you are bringing up old stories which have no connection what so ever to the matters being discussed here. You must realize this just casts carol in a bad light. Do you want to justify the carols current block with being siteblocked on en.wp? Or do you want to discuss the merit of the current allegations? --Dschwen (talk) 18:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Habi<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="">tual copyright violation is<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href=""> totally unrelated to Commons priorities? That's an odd position to be taking. The first time I raised this I stated that I was rec<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="">using from the actual research, since Carol had been vocal in spreading doubts about my motives. Much better to have people whose neutrality is above reproach to undertake the research. And your conduct, Dschwen, is one of the reasons I generally stay as far from this topic as conscience permits. If you cannot remain polite, please refrain from addressing me. Durova (talk) 18:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
If it is a thing of the past, then yes, and in particular it is unrelated to this case. Also please do not take disagreement for being impolite. Or where do you see impoliteness in my above post? --Dschwen (talk) 19:36, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
You presumed I hated Carol and asked why. That is an informal logical fallacy called begging the question. I asked you to withdraw that. You withdrew nothing and each followup presumed that my motives were not to be trusted at face value. That's your problem. I happen to have come here to discuss whether Carol can reform her conduct, and to set the example of constructive engagement by unblocking her if she does. You seem to be attempting to defend her, but have been so inefficient at pursuing the goal that you've compelled the disclosure of very relevant reasons behind her siteban at a sister project: not because she couldn't get along with people but because she's a prolific copyright violator. We could dismiss the first but not the second. Now there's also a checkuser request on her. If I had come here to take revenge upon Carol I'd secretly thank you. Actually it's only disappointing. May we get back to Carol, please, and try to determine if there was any nonaggressive rationale behind her post? Durova (talk) 21:51, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Don't forget, this is a personal talk page, so if anyone should be enforcing the subject of the discussion it is carol. What do you mean by withdrawing in any case? I did already apologize for my bad faith assumption. I'm not so much focussed on defending carol as I am in maintaining a level of fairness towards contributors. You clearly have a history with carol, which makes your engagement as an administrator here questionable. You offer an unblock under the condition of a guilty plea by carol. This seems questionable too, as you pointed out the consensus for the block on AN/U. What makes you think you could override that consensus? Chris made a quite reasonable statement over there by the way as far as nonaggressive rationales go. About that checkuser request, I don't see it, where is it? What's really disappointing is that the current behavior of a user cannot be rationally discussed without bringing up long dead stories. You aren't giving carol a chance. --Dschwen (talk) 22:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Forcing someone to change their views or opinions as a condition for unblocking is unfair and not (hopefully) the reason they were blocked in the first place. It's about their actions. They are free to think and feel whatever they like. It's not 1984 yet, there's no thought crimes. I have to admit that I, who's normally very comfortable with stating one's opinion, am having difficulty with all this tension in the air... but I want say to Durova, you shouldn't take things so personally. Constantly shifting the focus back to your fellow debaters' perceived impoliteness or whatever isn't helpful, it only makes things worse. Being multilingual/multicultural, not everyone has the same idea of what constitutes as "polite" (I personally would not get that feeling at all from Dschwen's responses) so it takes a little effort and tolerance from both sides to get along. Just take it for what it's worth and keep in mind that no one's forcing you to stay here and endure anything against your will. (Now please don't hate me :). Rocket000 (talk) 23:52, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
By no means would I block Carol, but an unblock should be above reproach. If Dschwen objects procedurally, of course, I could withdraw an offer which no one else has made. Then she truly wouldn't be getting a chance. Durova (talk) 04:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Wknight94:I am quite certain that knowing your real name could ruin your life" is an obvious threat. It sounds like something Tom Hagen would say. We're not doing a Godfather film here.

Wknight94:my first impulse would have been to block indefinitely.

There's something wrong going in here .... I'm sorry, no offense, but this is quite ridiculous.. 05:50, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

It may be unfair, but the culture here is such that no one is likely to take very seriously criticisms by an IP with three contributions. Suffice it to say that history of such matters provide ample justification for Wknight94's comments. Walter Siegmund (talk) 12:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

in the meantime, idle chit chat[edit]

Lets dig up some interesting and fun old old commons stuff. More than a week old by now....

My software was kind of messed up here; old supposedly at one time cutting edge stuff mixed with new more stable stuff. One day recently it all just broke.

The first problem I had to deal with was the weirdest. I don't use a Network Manager here and the distribution did something that probably its NM knew about but I didn't. (This is actually getting around to way old commons stuff, please be patient.) When I figured out the problem and fixed it I was really impressed with myself. If you want to argue that I should not have been impressed with the stupid fix that I needed to do to get my internet connection working again, I will not argue with you. No matter, I still felt good and wanted to mark the occasion that I was back online fittingly.

I supported Richards testicle tick at FP.

I really wanted to continue that support vote with asking if the German common name for tick was a rhymy as the English word is. That word rhymes with so many excellent and suitable words. SICK being just a single one that is such a perfect match.

I am sorry that the reviews of that image were not more poetic than they were.

Any thoughts about old commons stuff? -- carol (talk) 00:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


Are we done here? As far as I can tell, there is no longer any prospect that this discussion will result in overturning, shortening or lengthening this block. Some of the threads here may well merit further discussion, but it seems to me that this is not the best time and place to be pursuing them. Since Carol is blocked for a few more days yet, I suggest we all give her as little reason as possible to be here, by vacating her talk page en masse. Hesperian 05:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I was done a couple days ago, but then people kept asking questions. I tried to oblige and answer them and got scolded for it. So now I'm even more done. Wknight94 talk 12:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Since there has been an English wikipedia style inquest here and a overseer here blocking me indefinately on English wikipedia for no reason whatsoever. Am I safe to assume that I am being blocked because Durova and pals policies had the effect of only removing the reference that showed the article was inaccurate. I am being blocked due to ineffective policies of immature administration?
  1. What is being accomplished (other than showing off an ingroup and their tools)?
  2. What is the desired long term effect? A fact based and known license based encyclopedia and support material?
  3. What reason to give unified login to me without me requesting it only to block it without reasons given?
  4. Whose toy are you when you do this and do you have a plan to not be their toy but a real boy or girl one day (Lars that is directed at you specifically)?

-- carol (talk) 18:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

You are currently blocked because of the assumed threat you made to Multichill. All the other stuff is unrelated to present condition.
  1. To satisfy those that take issue with your behaviour and to prevent it from continuing (at least temporary by technical means). Some with hopes that you will retract, explain, or otherwise apologize.
  2. That you don't say stuff like that again and in general be more conscious of how others might interpret what you say.
  3. Unified login is irrelevant. Any user can get that. The reason was given. Whether you consider it valid or not is a different issue.
  4. You know that questions like that can only make things worse for you, so why even say them?
Ask yourself this: Do you want to do more of your wonderful work here on Commons (I hope) or do you want to cause drama? If it's latter, don't expect people to want to unblock you. I know some people get off on teh dramaz but sometimes it comes to a point where you have to choose one or the other (otherwise people will make that decision for you and you'll lose both). Rocket000 (talk) 19:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
"What I want" is too confusing to be considered right now. I am sorry that what I have said perhaps is requiring that software sources here are removed. I am deeply sorry that my talk page has been used to brag about ineffective administration if the desired outcome is a fact-based encyclopedia. I am sorry that those votes mean more than mine and that it is about talk page nonsense and not about contribution. I am sorry that the factors of value in which others are considered to be better than me is so great, similar factors will not be endured by them when they achieve this number of years of being alive. I am sorry that I enjoy filling my life productively and that this has been interrupted for no real reason. I am very sorry for those who participated. Look at how I get treated for almost no violation of ethics or actual problems but instead for those little mistakes made while learning and ask yourself if the species is moving forward or if it is dying.
Once, a very long time ago, I made a web page that used javascript to juggle runes and provide a random set of predictions or analogies to problems -- whatever. I think it was probably only played with by one or two people, this was long before the traffic to my web page was in the thousands, weekly. My friend accused me of "fixing it" of fixing the results; of doing something on my end in which I made the runes say things that I wanted them to say. Right now, due to many circumstances I have encountered recently, I am really sorry that I am the kind of person who has better things to do than to "use my access and javascript skills" to either 1) interfer with someone who is just trying to use it or 2) cause things to "come out my way" -- why let the runes do this when I would rather speak directly to this person and often did. So, I am sorry that I am required to work with people who seemingly have nothing better to do as I have.
The plant project review of my contributions there was a learning thing for me. The copyright review was like using an electron microscope to make several posters and something that those who have been compensated more than me will not endure. It is the sign of a dying species perhaps.
Do drama people show up when the facts are just not there or not in their favor?
Rocket thank you for taking your time and replying here. It is the isolation and the interruption and the interference and being forced to not complete something good that I am having problems with. Bad opinions from little twits is a fact I have often encountered and occasionally have been the little twit. I wasn't given such an ability to interfer with those my twitty little opinion was made for/of. -- carol (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I am "Lar" (singular) rather than "Lars" (plural)... because I don't sock (except fully disclosed socks used for rote activities). I recommend not socking to everyone, as a general policy, and that includes a recommendation specifically to you. If I find more socks of yours, as I did before, I will block them too. Hope that helps clear things up. ++Lar: t/c 05:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The eh, "ban" was supposed to be lifted in December -- by those same respectable and responsible and please fill in any words that you find to be appropriate here to describe the actions of those -- voting admin. It was not lifted. It was supposed to be lifted but it was not lifted. Now, improvements to articles are being reverted there. Is that because the administrators don't follow their own time decrees? I did not change my location. The IP changed itself, not instigated by me.
Lar, when you are put into jail for reasons not really understood by you and not released when the day arrives, what should we expect from you and from your jailers?
Do any of you know what GNU means? I personally can only remember the "other" meaning right now, but I wonder how many of you know either of them. -- carol (talk) 13:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I see no mention of the word "December" in the archived discussion of your ban. Nor any mention of "until the end of 2008", etc. Show us where December was mentioned. Wknight94 talk 13:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Wknight: GNU? Simple and good question as you are here and elsewhere using an extremely strongarmed approach to upholding the standards of the ideas and eh, software started and maintained by this group. Either one of the two meanings will be acceptable. If you do not know who you are representing with your eh, policing and cleaning here and at other places, consider reverting your changes until becoming familiar with the environment and not simply the winner of some votes. -- carol (talk) 15:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
By submitting text contributions, you irrevocably agree to release your text contributions under the GFDL (GNU Free Documentation License pasted right from the edit window. Wknight do you know about a world without a software compiler that is available to make software that makes the computers that people purchase function? Is there a GNU Free Documentation License policy that makes this understanding of this environment known to those who administrate with for it? I suspect that you stopped writing here because you did not know what the acronyms on the first edit window mean yet know all of those recent inventions of wiki policy links which can disappear. If gcc disappears -- do you know what happens then? (personally, I lived very nicely in a world which did not need g++ to make). GNU is still at least 90% about non-proprietary software and what do you do with this? -- carol (talk) 17:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Carol: Just don't sock. If you think your en:wp ban should have been lifted, or you think you want to appeal, or whatever, follow the process for appealing it. None of that has anything to do with not socking. ++Lar: t/c 14:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Every time I tried to edit there was a message that the ban was until a very specific date in December 2008. "Follow through?", "Be Responsible?". I never disguised the "sock". Oh, once I was accused of using the carefully disguised sock "Spears, Carol" -- I am not certain that I can limit my language in such a way that the people running things there will understand. Can you explain how a bunch of voting administration determine a ban length and it not appear in their discussion? -- carol (talk) 15:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Your appeal process is an email to arbcom-l at Appealing to me does you no good. As for your claim that it was not disguised, I did not see a statement on the user page saying "this is a disclosed sock of Carol Spears". So no. Just don't sock. If I find more socks of yours, here, or on en:wp, or anywhere else I look, I will block them unless they are fully disclosed. End of discussion. Just don't sock. ++Lar: t/c 16:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I forgot my password there (a peculiar feeling I had about the mail interface went away when I changed the password and disengaged the email there and here, btw); I was unknowing of the sock template and its importance. An activated edit window simply does not give that kind important information and I am curious how many clicks it would take to find this. You are unable to undo what you did? You are not in possession of a logic and an ability to determine when an obscure policy is applied or not and you are unable to be an individual and stand out from a broken system and be effective towards fixing it? I am sorry that the picture here of enabling is one of such disabling -- it is a little weird, isn't it? -- carol (talk) 17:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Just don't sock. There isn't anything more to add. Internalise that, and move on. Or don't, as you like. ++Lar: t/c 19:29, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Can you restore Dr CyCoe's edits, then merge them with mine? Dr CyCoe was a nick I got from a sign drawn on a Pink Panther cartoon, btw. I thought it was kind of cool and late for cool as there are so many nicks taken. It certainly does appear that it is far better to sock to make a few destructive edits than to use a username with a known password to make several positive edits. And, is the system there of checking new edits or the natural fact checking process so broken that it is as unreliable as all of the eager administration made it seem? If 20 people check one person and find two errors what happens to the 20 users who make 2 errors each (40 errors for those not at that mathematic level) and only two of those are found?
What would happen if those policies had been deleted and not those comparitively well researched articles?
What would happen if one person made a review of that action and found it to be just a lot of eh, (lack of a better term here) useless wanking and reverted everything including that ban. My edits being left to any person who thinks there really is a fact problem or a copyright violation to repair naturally as most other edits are managed? -- carol (talk) 17:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone can restore your ban-evading sockpuppet's edits. But they should be aware that if they restore edits that were done as poorly as the ones that got you banned, that they will doubtless find themselves on the same road. Wknight94 talk 18:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
What road am I on? Am I the only person in the GNU environment (edit party) who is wearing the uniform? My computer works great.
Wknight94, instead of deleting the new articles I authored as Dr CyCoe (which were a great base of mostly activity from before 1850), you should have deleted en:List of Lepidoptera that feed on Senecio or moved it to en:List of Lepidoptera that feed on Jacobaea vulgaris, if you look at the one (or so) references I found, it is only one species of that genra. I am not interested in having my pre-ban edits restored, especially the ones that the Plant Project person looked over. Dr CyCoes stuff was pretty good though and as good as I could make it due to the fact that I don't understand latin (yet). Most of it was kind of not exciting stuff, some of it was kind of fun though and I tried to point that stuff out in the further reading. Plant naming sometimes got a little rude, historically. It is interesting how difficult those were to write about.
You know a lot about the current policies. Instead of learning about current policies, I tried to learn about the articles I was editing. One thing I do know is that it is as easy for you to delete those cancerous policies as it was to delete those benign articles I started. -- carol (talk) 18:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
I am happy to hear that you had fun working on those. Unfortunately, instead of asking nicely to be let back in to the party, and agreeing to certain rules and stipulations, you chose to throw on a disguise and sneak in through a back window. Your continued rage against the people and policies that led to your ban aren't winning you any friends either. If you really think that the edits there would hold up under scrutiny, contact the Arbitration Committee there and ask them to look over those edits. They can see the deleted articles. They will probably insist on some sort of heavy oversight of your edits should you be allowed back in. Hell, if you could edit properly there and even stop with the petty sucker-punch personal attacks, I would even root for your return and undelete your articles myself. But if you insist on making an end-around the entire system and yelling at policies, you have little chance. Wknight94 talk 19:35, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
  1. Please paste whatever it was that I wrote in which you perceived I said anything about having fun.
  2. I had a dream in which I was being raped in a shelter, was this your dream? In this dream, at no time did any person in it seem to be particularly "turned on" or having a very good relationship with life or other living people, just in case you were wondering.
  3. I am open to reasons to keep the policies, do you have any?
  4. Your perception is that the regular way that articles are fact checked do not function? Is there a way to make that work?
  5. We can all "safely" assume that you do not know either of the acronym expansions of gnu?
--carol (talk) 10:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Right, that's what I figured you would say. Thank you. Wknight94 talk 11:40, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Carol: You need to stop being so snarky, please. Since you sometimes act like you don't know what the problem is, we can just start deleting those posts of yours that are too snarky, rather than debating it with you. That may be more convenient for all concerned. ++Lar: t/c 16:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Card suit icons[edit]

There is another of these on the QI page, before time stuff.

Could a person who is less dangerous and intimidating than me (and therefore still able to edit) remove that and perhaps look to see what reason those characters are being put onto the page.... -- carol (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

✓ Done [5][6] Walter Siegmund (talk) 20:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Thank you Walter Siegmund. Do you have any guesses/ideas what reason this user is doing that to the QIC page? -- carol (talk) 17:19, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Mercury_Redstone_3_GPN-2000-001006.jpg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

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Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 03:51, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

See the discussion for details, but the only reason I chose to delete this version was because the other one had a more complete, descriptive name. --Colin Douglas Howell (talk) 04:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
There is a {{badname}} template that makes doing what you did easier. The only "problem" I ever have with the deletion of the original upload is that sometimes, keeping the upload history of the original uploader in tact sometimes is very helpful (I put the pages of a book back together, for one example). But that is probably a somewhat rare user. Another thing about the {{badname}} template is that the new image name gets used and enters into its deletion history and if that image was on my watchlist, I would know what the better name was. -- carol (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Daily WTF[edit]

Thought this might amuse you (hopefully!). Sorry I didn't see your recent block-farce in time, and an admin who's language comprehension skills failed them nearly as much as their inability to follow AGF policy. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I looked at your link a few days ago and enjoyed it. It reminded me of this thing I got in 2002 or so (the date says 2004 but since then I have learned how to move/copy files around and retain the timestamp):
I am kind of happy with this situation both here and at en.wikipedia and really want those articles to remain reverted like they are. It will always be there for me to show what kind of idiots are running things here and especially there. The 'pedia elite spit in their own eye for me to see -- who do I thank? -- carol (talk) 21:36, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you there?[edit]

Hi Carol,

Not a single edit from you in almost a month. Very unusual considering your usual extremely high activity level seven days a week. I have been thinking about you lately, and I am concerned that something happened to you. I know that other users here are concerned as well, and I would welcome a ping here just to confirm that you are here and that you are well. If you do not feel like writing here, I would also appreciate an e-mail ping. Just to know that you are alright.

Beste wishes, --Slaunger (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

No reply needed. I see from User talk:Dschwen that you are here again Face-smile.svg. --Slaunger (talk) 11:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
The upload form here says 100MB limit, yet the video ogg that has been uploading here for the last 11 hours is 447M. Soon I should get a message that it is too large?
I really want to continue this "Policy is more important than accurate content" discussion and display that is occurring here but my computer is in need of some downtime to diagnose something that went wrong during an upgrade.
This thing is quite interesting and at least one part is very funny (and the video file is beautiful -- the film itself needs some love); I am uncertain of my web sites ability to stream ogg though: -- carol (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Name change - File:Strata.jpg[edit]

Carol, if you have a moment, would you mind doing the name change for File:Strata.jpg to File:Breakfast_strata.jpg per my tag on the file? After I uploaded the image, I found that an image of the same name, but of a band not a food item, existed in en(wiki), so I can't use this one in the en(wiki)article I was targetting (en:Stratta). Thanks, Geoff T C 20:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I do not have access to the tools that rename images here. That is a script which downloads the image and reuploads it with the new name and puts the original upload history into the image description page. Admin have access to it.
As a non-admin user, you can do the same things with the exception of maintaining the upload history -- even via the upload bot (maybe, I haven't used it so I don't know for certain) just tell it to upload it again anyways when it warns you that the image already exists here.
I was going to mention that the name is fine until I read the reason for the name change. Might I suggest File:Strata_casserole.jpg since I know people who have eaten this on more than one occasion but never for breakfast. Or even File:Stratta_casserole.jpg, if the en.wikipedia name is spelled correctly -- which should be checked before just believing. Or by the name it has at Flickr File:Strata is done.jpg
Sorry that I cannot just do this for you. Possibly, waiting for an admin to get around to it can be stressful. -- carol (talk) 22:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)