User talk:Fred the Oyster/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.


Questions to SVG

Hi Fred, may use this possibility to learn a bit more about SVG? I know that I cannot fulfil your high expectations about English, it's not my native language, and I use it rather bluntly.

The same way I use SVG, not knowing its secrets, and not able to find them out. I am astonished what some editors create of not necessary output. I try to keep the files of SVG graphics neat and small, but I do not know exactly what is necessary - or at least, should be good practice.

  • The preamble, often a lot of preliminaries when generated, can sure be reduced to a minimum that makes sense, without any innecessarities.
  • The body consists in some cases just of very simple geometries, where editors (like Inkscape) use complicated constructs of path, often specifying locations with six and more decimal fractions where such an exactness is of no usability.

You did some corrections to the File:U+06DE.svg, because if its W3C compliance. Thank you for debugging my faults, but would you mind to tell me what has been wrong? I liked to avoid my novice errors in future, if I only knew how to make it better. What does my minimized version

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<svg xmlns="" width="200" height="200">
    <rect x="40" y="40" width="120" height="120" fill="none" stroke="#000" stroke-width="4"/> 
    <polygon points="100 15 185 100 100 185 15 100" fill="none" stroke="#000" stroke-width="4"/> 
    <circle cx="100" cy="100" r="25" fill="none" stroke="#000" stroke-width="4"/> 

really need to work properly (without growing from 394 bytes to a huge file)? Thank you for your help, -- sarang사랑 14:18, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I'm sorry, I didn't explain it correctly in my notes. It wasn't your original file that had problems, it was mine. There was a request in the en Illustration workshop to crop down the blank space surrounding the art. I did this for your file and another identical one. the problem was that I saw, and worked on the other file first and used the copy of that to amend yours. Unfortunately the file creator of the first file had used Inkscape to create the image (I'm using Illustrator). Inkscape adds it's own DTD XML markup and it was this causing the problem.
As I see it there was nothing wrong with your image other than the extra surrounding space. Personally that doesn't really bother me, but as I said it was a request here. I'm truly sorry if this upset you. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:05, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, forgot the filesize question: This version is an SVG 1.1 file with some Adobe generated XMP data so it's added some additional (and most probably, useless) text to the file. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your explanations. I am not at all upset, I just liked to know, and to learn. If I understand you correctly that the additions by generators like Adobe (or, much more, by Inkscape) are of no substancial need, and the citation of seven and more xmlns https is obsolet, you and the Wkipedia Commons community may have no objections that I restored the small version. Now it is cropped to a rim of 2 pixel, total cropping to rim zero does not look better. Your work reduced the original size of the ROUB file a lot, as I believe because you used Illustrator instead of Inkscape; but this cannot compete with the manual creation of simple geometries, as I wanted to show and to proof. -- sarang사랑 05:59, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

As an experiment I did a new version, but this time totally from scratch instead of converting either of the existing svg's. I did it in Illustrator and after I deleted out the commented Illustrator garbage the resulting file was 814 bytes and included this code:
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE svg PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD SVG 1.0//EN" "">
<svg version="1.0" id="Layer_1" xmlns="" xmlns:xlink="" x="0px" y="0px" width="199.745px" height="199.745px" viewBox="0 0 199.745 199.745" enable-background="new 0 0 199.745 199.745" xml:space="preserve">
<rect x="31.894" y="31.894" transform="matrix(0.7071 0.7071 -0.7071 0.7071 99.8735 -41.3684)" fill="none" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="3.8748" width="135.956" height="135.956"/>
<rect x="31.894" y="31.892" fill="none" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="3.8748" width="135.957" height="135.957"/>
<circle fill="none" stroke="#000000" stroke-width="3.8748" cx="99.872" cy="99.87" r="22.026"/>
So yes it does indeed look like it can be optimised quite considerably, but in its defence Illustrator is more optimised for print rather than web graphics, and I far prefer it over Inkscape. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 06:25, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks interesting; I do not know either, I restrict to mere manual drawing of very simple objects, so I made the whole Category:Unicode Geometrics SVG this way (the images are made voluntarely "fixed pitch", all the same size 180x180, and not reduced/cropped individually). I think tools like Illustrator have sure their rights, they are a great help. But the accuracy of decimal fractions is in many cases an exaggeration of not much worth in reality. Stroke-width of 3.8748 does not look much different to 3.87, 3.9 or 4. Of course, in modern systems is no need to save space, it is just my personal spleen to keep data to a small size. And I try to learn the correct use of the SVG basic elements, where Inkscape solve things with the path element. Illustrator seems much better in recognizing basic elements. -- sarang사랑 07:16, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Quality Image Promotion

Your image has been reviewed and promoted

Congratulations! Cervix dilation sequence.svg, which was produced or nominated by you, was reviewed and has now been promoted to Quality Image status.

If you would like to nominate another image, please do so at Quality images candidates.


Thanks, it looks awesome! Kaldari (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

One small request if you have the time: Can you make the gradient at the bottom smoother? Right now it ends abruptly, leaving a line across the belly of the shark where it switches from one shade of grey to the other. (It might not even be noticeable on some monitors though.) I would have fixed it myself, but I have an older version of Illustrator and it won't let me open it. Kaldari (talk) 16:02, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
The underbody sharp delineation was deliberate to try to illustrate the normal change in underbody colour, but if you don't like it I can certainly modify it. I can't do it right now, maybe this evening, but if there's any other changes you'd like me to make now's the time :). One thing I did notice is the obviously missing gills, would you like me to add some? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
That makes sense, although since the line extends across the fin as well it kind of ruins the 3D effect. Would it be possible to do separate gradients for the bottom fin and the belly? i.e. a smooth one for the fin and a more abrupt one for the belly? I think I like it better without gills, personally, but if you feel inclined to add some, go for it. Kaldari (talk) 17:00, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Whoops, I made the alterations and forgot to let you know :) --Fred the Oyster (talk) 23:00, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

You're back?

Yeah! --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 09:47, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Only temporarily. I'm just finishing off partly-finished stuff and a few odds and sods that have piqued my interest. Thanks for coming to my defence though, it's very much appreciated. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 10:22, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Oribe's Signature

Hi Fred, here is a signature to vectorize, it's in very high definition File:Manuel Oribe Signature.png, thanks. --Kineto007 (talk) 22:12, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Pirate_Flag_of_Blackbeard_(Edward_Teach).svg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

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Hi Fred, I have concerns over the design you traced from Konstam's book and raised a discussion for its possible deletion as indicated above. Jappalang (talk) 04:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

File:Dilation and curettage.svg

See [1]. Someone has a few small issues with your illustration, and I was wondering if you wanted to try to address them. At least one or two of the labels are wrong, and some anatomical features are a bit fuzzy or missing outright. Not sure if you still view this, but your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! -Andrew c (talk) 20:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

sorry to trouble you...

File:Coat of Arms of the Italian Social Republic.svg needs redrawn as gold, the "owner" of the crude earlier version is being testy. Can you help? Thank you for your earlier help, and sorry. --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:WikiProject_Scouting_Guiding_2010_Centenary.svg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

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Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:43, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Wikipe-tan_in_swimwear.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

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Nikkimaria (talk) 12:46, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


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 Ronhjones  (Talk) 22:13, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

File:UMD icon.jpg

Regarding the image above. What do you consider a copyright violation? Mizunoryu (talk) 12:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

An image taken from a website that declares at the bottom that all images are copyrighted "All Rights Reserved", and certainly not the CC License you declared it to be. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Lets' talk on it's talk page, allright!? Mizunoryu (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

you came back!

Glad to see the bastards couldn't keep you down!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

It won't be a regular event, but I was bored and wanted to mess around with Illustrator. Thanks for the welcome back though :) --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Saw you came out of retirement, go get 'em, Ali! Especially below...--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Cheers mate, though I have no idea how long it'll last before I get bored again :) --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:28, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Notice your Category:Images created by Fred the Oyster is being removed. CYA.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 18:22, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Scout maps

Thank you for fixing the bloat, can you add South Sudan?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Will do... once I find out where the place is! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks! It's past Blahblahjikistan, once you see the end of the world, turn left, go down where the gas station used to be, it should be there somewhere.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
It's already done mate. I know a second-hand country dealer and I got it from him. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Civil Air Ensign of Fiji.svg

Thanks for taking the request. Can you just fix the Civil Air Ensign. When you redid it, you ended up with the fly being longer then the hoist. They're supposed to be equal. Thanks Fry1989 (talk) 20:43, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no idea what you just said. I don't normally do flags so haven't got a clue about their component names. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 22:24, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
Ok. The left half is shorter then the right half. They should be equal, like the previous version of the file. Fry1989 (talk) 04:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
All sorted, well at least I hope it is!!! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:27, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Yes, thank you :) Fry1989 (talk) 18:45, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Oops, I'm sorry. There's just one other problem. Now the bottom half is shorter than the top half. each sky-blue corner should be the same size as the Union Jack. The upper-right one is, but the bottom two need to be taller. Fry1989 (talk) 02:41, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
I used guides to make sure the cross bisected exactly at the X and Y centres so I don't know how it has now changed. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 10:36, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
THere we go, thanks. Sorry to be a bother. Fry1989 (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
It's no bother. There's no point in doing something if it isn't done correctly. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:40, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


There are two images File:File-St John's College, University of Queensland Shield.svg and File:St John's College, University of Queensland Shield.svg... AnonMoos (talk) 18:17, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


From all information provided, you simply did not "create" that image; therefore "Category:Images created by Fred the Oyster" is highly inappropriate. Furthermore, the version of the file you most recently uploaded can be considered to have a "correct viewport"[sic] if and only if the goal is to have the non-background areas of the image be jammed directly against the edge (with no margin or buffer) -- something which is by no means universally admired or viewed as a positive feature. AnonMoos (talk) 23:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, I am WebHamster, secondly, as I designed and created it in the first place whatever I decide is correct is correct. The file is how I want it. If you don't like it delete it, it's no skin off my nose. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
That's nice -- I don't have any have any particular intentions of nominating the file for deletion or reverting your upload, but a little more cooperativeness and a little less futzing around with multiple identities and dogmatic assertions of "attitude" would go a long way... AnonMoos (talk) 11:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Go a long way to what? I'm not here for the social facilities, I'm here as it suits my purposes at this present moment in time. I rather doubt my "attitude" will change any time soon. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
That's nice -- however, the same person editing the same pages/files with multiple accounts is somewhat discouraged on Wikipedia/Commons, and therefore there is absolutely no expectation or obligation that I should do any research to find out whether your multiple accounts refer to the same person -- rather the burden is entirely 100% on you to clarify that you've been using multiple identities. And what you decreed to be "correct" is something which many people would not in fact consider to be optimal. It would help move things along with less friction if you would slightly tone down your level of arrogance in order to correspond with these indisputable facts. AnonMoos (talk) 17:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
It's an indisputable fact that I create/supply/work on these images for my own enjoyment, It's an indisputable fact that what I upload is what I wanted to upload whether you or anyone else agrees is not my problem. Perhaps you don't understand the word "subjective". In any case, anyone can edit the files I upload if they don't like what I've done. If I don't like what they do then it's simple... I just do what they just did.
As for your research into my multiple personalities and the onus is on me to clarify the situation. I totally agree, which is why I put everything under one category. Duh!
What you perceive as arrogance is in fact someone getting to the point quickly and efficiently (I'm not a great fan of typing), not faffing around with bullshit and calling a spade a spade. If you don't like it, then I'm afraid that's your problem, not mine. No-one is asking you to interact with me, especially me. As I said earlier, I'm not here for the socialising. I just want to be left alone to do what I want to do, especially if I'm not breaking any rules. Not that rules mean an awful lot to me. Have a nice day. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


On some of the flags you uploaded the pasteboard as you called it is showing on the sides.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:13, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you make File:Variant of the Flag of Tahiti (1822-1829).svg the same color and dimensions as File:Flag of the Kingdom of Tahiti 1822-1829.svg?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:40, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Now it looks squished. It's long enough but not tall enough. Trying making them both exactly the same size so they look the same side by side. Many thanks.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:58, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I matched the size with the wrong flag. I'd done so many in such a short space of time I was starting to get confused with which ones are which. Anyway, it's all sorted now. I'll have a stab at the family flags this weekend, though I warn you CoA aren't my usual topic, so there's no telling how much of a hash I'll make of it! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:27, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
The shape of the Coat of arms is a little bit off but I guess it'll have to do. But one thing you left one star off on the Ka Lahui Hawaii flag. Also they are twinkling starts rather than five pointed stars. See this.
There will always be variations, the image I was working from was this one, primarily because it's the best one I've found for seeing the intricate details. The crown I've redrawn from scratch and will upload it as a component that other wikigraphists. As for the stars, working from a low resolution gif designed and created by a non-artist is not a good source for anything. I couldn't make up my mind whether the stars were 5-sided or that they were corrupted by compression artifacts. Additionally I'm not going to spend a lot of time on these images. I normally do quick ones so I can do them inbetween my work projects. Anything that takes more than about 30 mins to do isn't really my thing. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:35, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Okay that's too bad. But I don't think the stars are a corruption. A real life Ka Lahui Hawaii flag shown here has twinkling stars. I'll just put it as a note on the talk page of the flag in case anyone in the future would want to fix it.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
You can place them on the gallery on en:Flag of Hawaii instead of here.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Re: Badge naming

For me, the biggest thing about naming is that the unit name and the type of heraldry should be included in the name. I hate the use of the word "crest" to describe distinctive unit insignia and coats of arms because that is not what they are called. The naming convention I use for files is an abbreviated version of the unit name followed by an abbreviation based on what the insignia is called. For example, Shoulder Sleeve Insignia is SSI (not patch), Distinctive Unit Insignia is DUI (not crest or seal), Coat of Arms is COA (not crest or emblem). For unit sizes, Division = Div, Regiment = Rgt, Battalion = Bn, Brigade = Bde, etc. I base those on the Army's own abbreviation for those size units. The type of unit (Infantry, Armor, Engineers, etc) I generally use the army abbreviation (ADA = Air Defense Artillery, FA = Field Artillery, etc.) Therefore, a coat of arms for the 22nd Infantry Regiment in jpeg format I would name "22 Inf Rgt COA.jpg" My pet peeves are non-descriptive names, using crest/seal/emblem/patch, or in the case of regimental insignia, including battalion designations in the name (e.g. "1-64 Inf DUI.jpg" - 1-64 would indicate 1st Battalion 64th Infantry, but the DUI is not exclusive to that one battalion. It is used by all battalions within the regiment.) Does that help? Monkeybait (talk) 19:04, 3 August 2011 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Flag_of_Kingdom_of_Hawaii_(1816-1845).svg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

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Fry1989 eh? 21:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Flag_of_Kingdom_of_Hawaii_(1845-1898).svg has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

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Fry1989 eh? 21:45, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

File:Lamelle ramificate.svg

So - where is the problem? The file is supposed to be a replacement for the original PNG version. - The new file matches that much better, it's cleaner, valid SVG, ... - Why not overwrite? Is it just because you can't claim copyright to that anymore?--Natr (talk) 12:12, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Firstly it wasn't a replacement of, it was an alternative to the png version. You will also notice that it's not a bit for bit copy (you even commented on it) and it's a totally new format, ie vector, therefore I am allowed to re-license the image. Secondly I had no problem with you building upon mine until you came to re-license it, which is a no-no as can be seen in the last line of the copyright template. If you want to re-license the image then create a new file under your own name. Your choice. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:28, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


GDBarnstar1.png The Graphic Designer's Barnstar
I present this Barnstar to Fred the Oyster for his vector graphic contributions. Jovian Eye storm 02:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Glad to see you active on commons! --Jovian Eye storm 02:22, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Ta muchly. It wasn't necessary, but very much appreciated all the same. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:37, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Text Editor

Would you care to direct me to a good one? I only know Inkscape. Fry1989 eh? 00:53, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Any text editor is capable of editing SVG files as they are just plain text in a markup language similar to HTML. Bearing in mind I don't know what platform you're on, but I use Notepad++. It's free and open source. Text editors tend to be a personal thing though so I recommend you try a few different ones (there are loads out there) to see which one suits you.
As for changing the margins, you are actually changing the "viewbox" of the file. Just open the SVG file in a text editor, even Windows Notepad, and towards the top you'll see the line which denotes the size of the viewbox...

<svg version="1.1" id="Layer_1" xmlns="" xmlns:xlink="" x="0px" y="0px" width="161.173px" height="191.341px" viewBox="0 0 161.173 191.341" enable-background="new 0 0 161.173 191.341" xml:space="preserve"> all you have to do is alter the width, height, viewbox and "enable-background" numbers to match the size of viewbox you want. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 09:09, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi there

I got another flag request if you feel like taking it. It should be pretty straight-forward. Fry1989 eh? 22:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Just mentioning this again, since you've been pretty active in the Lab lately. Also, I have two seals requests on there too, if you're willing. Considering it's been four months, I think NikNaks is far too busy to take care of the ones he took on. Fry1989 eh? 00:52, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Flags really aren't my forte as I know so little about them, but I'll have a go over the next few days as I'm already part way through a couple of others. I also have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll get it done. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look. The seals may be more your style, but I'm grateful for your time on any of my requests. Fry1989 eh? 03:11, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:SA-Army-badge.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

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Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:06, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Ada Lovelace graphic

Thanks for converting the Ada Lovelace graphic into an SVG! I took your SVG and colorized it, which you can see at File:Ada Lovelace color.svg. Kaldari (talk) 01:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes I was just looking at it a few minutes ago and a rather fine job you've made of it too. Perks of Illustrator's blob tool and a different layer? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

please vectorized

en:File:RIGHT HAND CURVE.png or Right hand curve sign (India).png

en:File:LEFT HAND CURVE.png or Left hand curve sign (India).png

and replace existing svg versions. thanx... Alok Prasad (talk) 18:46, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I've already replaced the 2 svg images you did. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

USSR large map merge

Thank you for your beautiful job merging the European USSR map from the 1928 USSR Altas! I was wondering if you could do something similar for the entire USSR map. I have 6 scan of it posted (NE, NW, SW×3, SE), but let me know if you need any more. —Firespeaker (talk) 20:30, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay, I've been a tad diistracted of late. If you let me know where the images are I'll have a look to see what I can do with it. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Magog the Ogre

His lack of understanding about proper licensing and the fact that "text" includes coats of arms because they are described in text, is really starting to annoy me, and it looks like it's annoying you too. Anything we can do about his constant nominations for deletion? He clearly doesn't understand what he's talking about. Fry1989 eh? 00:54, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Have you two read Commons:Coats of arms? While the definition of a Coat of Arms (the "text") is almost always PD, the representation (the images which keep being deleted) can be and usually is copyrighted. See COM:COA#Coat of arms "found on the internet". From said article: Coats of Arms "found on Commons may be (1) reproductions of PD-old artworks, (2) recent artwork with a clear "free" licence, (3) self-made reproductions. The rest should be deleted (and eventually will be)." COM:COA#Accepted_on_Commons, emphasis mine. --Kramer Associates (talk) 02:20, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Kramer, we have both read it fine, we don't need a lecture from you. Fry1989 eh? 04:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes I've read it. It's a guideline, not a policy. There are absolutely no references to back up anything said there, as such I don't see it as a reliable guideline. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 09:07, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Update top 1% graph?

Fred. Great top 1% graph.

Chart of US Top 1% Income Share (1913-2008).svg

. Would you consider updating it? Maybe larger font? We are considering using it on the Occupy Wall Street article. (I'm user nowa in wikipedia). -- 01:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)


If there were an award for the most interesting edit summary I've read in quite some time I'd award it to you :) Cheers --Herby talk thyme 17:27, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

Graphic Designer Barnstar Hires.png The Graphic Designer's Barnstar
In recognition of Fred the Oyster's hard and awesome work in producing the trophies for the 2011 WikiCup, I am pleased to award Fred the Graphic Designer's Barnstar. Sp33dyphil 03:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Thank you Phil, it's an absolute pleasure. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:26, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

IP editing

Are you editing under an IP?--Jiujitsuguy (talk) 22:43, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Not intentionally no. What makes you think I was? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 22:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)


Dear Fred, File:IJssel.png is an altered common file. It may nevertheles be removed, because I accidentely uploaded he wrong file. The file I needed was file:bruggen schema.jpg; I took it from commons and changed it. Please leave it where it is till someone has a better one.~Greetings, --Koosg (talk) 11:39, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm just a normal editor like yourself, I can't delete anything, I can only tag things that are awry. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Magog the Ogre situation

Can you email me please? User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 15:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Done --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I'll explain the full details, but I was the admin contacted by email about this situation. I am heavily involved with both users outside of this dispute so I would not have taken action anyways. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 16:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Location IJssel.PNG Hello Fred, the files IJssel.PNG and schema bruggen.jpg are editions of Location IJssel.PNG; so we have a license already. Koosg (talk) 21:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


Hello I would like to ask you could you vectorize this flag please: Drax90 (talk) 09:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm currently working on it but the lion in the middle is causing me trouble due to the file's resolution being so poor. The rest is done. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Yes I must admit that this is one of the most complicated flags ever concieved,hope you make it with the lion Drax90 (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
when you finish it, please notify me Drax90 (talk) 13:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Map Workshop

Fred, I believe you incorrectly marked my request on the Map Workshop as Resolved. See your edit. The map I requested work on has not been changed, and I think you meant to mark the one below it as resolved (but I'm not sure). Powers (talk) 13:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Please accept my apologies, you are indeed correct. I obviously had a large brain fart there. The resolved tag should have gone on the line-but-1 below and your request marked stale (in order to get someone to have a go at it before it got archived. Again, my apologies. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:23, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
No problem, I was likewise confused. Though a bit taken aback by your strong language. =) Powers (talk) 16:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
What strong language? I used an acronym. You filled the "F" bit in yourself. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:31, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Erm, uh...

I know you love the 'pedia about as much as prison rape or a catfood smoothie, but I have a small few graphic needs that have been itching at me. Might I prevail upon you?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Seeing as it's you mate, what do you need? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for that, I appreciate you even giving these a look. In order of need, top to bottom,
Thanks again for having a look.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I give up, what's a twonk?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I've been a little distracted of late. First off a "twonk" is the equivalent of a "pillock, "fuckwit" "dingbat" etc. :) Right, as for the above, well I'm not sure I understand your instructions. How can I use w:File:Scout Association of Jamaica.png as a model if it doesn't exist? As for the font, well I haven't seen any of the above images using any fonts. Bear with me if I'm not understanding something which should be easy. Over the last couple of months I've had a series of "mini-strokes" which has had the effect of me losing fine motor control, my ability to type and spell is impaired and I have periods of bad tremors and nervous tics. I also find that my cognitive ability is variable. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Are you okay? The stroke stuff is more important, is all fixable? I was joking about the twonk, I guessed it was something like that. Never heard "pillock", I like that, sounds so Amish. Ah, the red links are actually on Wikipedia, and therein lies the rub. I don't know if you ever go back there.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:31, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
You've got mail!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:47, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Ah, no you don't, it bounced back to me.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

All sorted, sorry about the delay though, I seem to be popular for requests at the moment. With regard to the strokes, I'm doing okay thanks. They aren't majorly disable, more irritating than anything else...until I get the big one that is heheheh. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:55, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much, they are all great! Slight tweaks to Somaliland and Korea, which I have noted on the image files. Sorry about that. Thank you again!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:03, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
Fantastic, thank you for your hard work, and I hope you get to feeling better!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


I have left another reply on my talk page Drax90 (talk) 13:15, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Having fun? Me neither. I truly do not understand him. Every single deletion I've been involved with him in, I have been right and he bas been wrong. The last 3 of them, the license was correct, and the coat of arms was PD. However, the file itself was deleted because it from was Vector Images (something I wasn't aware of, and if I had been, I would have agreed that the file should go). But somehow, he warps the misunderstanding of the difference between the license of the image, and where the image came from, into a victory for himself. This is truly becoming tiresome, but I appreciate your assistance in this DR. It's beyond obvious the file is covered by the license it's under. Fry1989 eh? 22:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

I can only presume that it's truculence resulting from the need to win at all costs, I think there's also an element of 'fingers in the ears' too. I fail to understand how it can't be considered to be an official document in its own right. It's the national bloody army for fuck-sake. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
If you check the DR, I have since listed three sources proving it is covered by the license. However, now I have Takabeg on my tail, a person with perhaps the most ignorant understanding of coprright I have ever seen (per the reason I listed on the DR as well). What's worse, when ever I have tried to explain to Takabeg how copyright works, he tells me I'm not a Turk, so I couldn't possibly understand Turkish laws. Such xenophobic and nationalistic views are tiresome, but not uncommon here I have found. Any further comments by you (somebody who actually understands copyrights) on the DR above would be greatly appreciated. Fry1989 eh? 22:02, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I've had a helluva day, culminating in my dogs wrecking my laptop and getting indeffed for the 3rd time over at en. and now my washing machine is making some rather alarming noises! Anyway, I've passed a pithy comment or two at the discussion but I suppose it all depends on the admin closing the 'debate'. If he/she is the lazy sort and and just counts votes then it's a no consensus keep, whereas if it's a decent admin who reads it all it could go either way. There is a good chance though, given the amount of people we've pissed off in the past, that we wind up with of the pissed off admins!
PS I'm already pissed of with this Mac keyboard on an iMac I've had to draft in to replace my laptop when I'm downstairs, and I really, really don't like Macs! Bloody things putting form before function. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:44, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey, no problem. We all have real lives ;). I think with the evidence I have presented, it's pretty clear the file should stay, However, if an admin just counts the votes and gets rid of it, I'll promise you there will be a very swift un-deletion discussion. As for Takabeg, I don't take pleasure in his lack of understanding. Nobody can say I haven't tried many times to explain to him where he is wrong, and how copyright works, and he either sticks his fingers in his ear (such as his Wikipedia English talk page, where he simple just said "no", one word as a reply), and here on his Commons page where he says that non-Turks can't be expected to understand Turkish law. Fry1989 eh? 01:50, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The silly person, I'm not Turkish but I understand how kebabs are made. We'll just have to just wait and see, I rather doubt you could do any more than you already have done. You've already spent far too much time on this rubbish already. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Sadly, the "you're not one of us, so you can't understand our laws as well as we do" attack is something that isn't going away. On my talk page is an example of the same type of nationalistic view from a Croatian user. In any case, I would agree that this DR has gone alot longer then it needs to, but it's worth it to me, if I can help keep a file that belongs on Commons, despite others' misunderstandings. Also, there are countless symbols of the SANDF that are missing, and it would be great to have them here. This is the only hurdle in the way of that, and once it has been overcome, all the other SANDF symbols and flags can finally come to Commons. Fry1989 eh? 02:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Hey, I'm back. It's kinda sad that they kill the messenger and completely ignore the meat puppet (if he isn't actually a sock, I have my suspicions. I don't like accusing others, but lets just say I've only asked for a checkuser twice since I joined Wikimedia, and both times I was right). Anyhow, your input would be appreciated at the following two unDRs: Antigua and UAE. The two unDRs have been completely ignored for weeks, which makes no sense since they're both very deserving of being undeleted per all the reasons stated by multiple users in support for an undeletion. Thanks for "maintaining the Keep" while I was away :) Fry1989 eh? 01:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Image theft

Please don't copy others work and pass it off as your own! This was my "transparent" version and you just stole it and added some white to it's background --McZusatz (talk) 08:47, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

WTF? I haven't passed anything of yours off as my own. Try looking 2 sections above you at "Erm, uh..." for your answer. But, just a thought, if you got it right in the first place others may not have to recreate it for you. I don't know about your part of the world but flags tend not to be transparent in mine. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Maybe you are right and its just random that the rendered images (1,2) match exactly over each other.
Have a nice day. --McZusatz (talk) 12:22, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you are on about, but your image was used, corrected, optimised then uploaded as per the request above, but I haven't taken credit for it. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:36, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Actually I can field this one. I asked the accusing party to do just what you did, Fred, got a strange non-answer, so I later asked you, and you did just what was needed, so thank you again.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Just out of interest, can you remember the license on McWhassissname's version? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
English: Hey, I am sorry that I accused you of stealing "my" file after I got disappointed because of this files deletion. After remembering that I most likely put this file under PD, It would've been allowed to you to use this file explicitly.
Deutsch: Hallo, es tut mir Leid, dass ich dich aufgrund meiner anfänglichen Enttäuschung über die Löschung einer meiner Dateien beschuldigt hatte, die Datei zuvor gestohlen zu haben. Wenn ich mich recht entsinne, habe ich genau diese Datei sogar unter PD gestellt, weshalb es dir sogar ausdrücklich gestattet gewesen wäre diese evtl. zu benutzen. Wall25.gif Once again, I am very sorry.
--McZusatz (talk) 13:34, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
No problems. Apology accepted.--Fred the Oyster (talk) 07:57, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
No, sorry, it should match the one on the pre-existing version you overwrote. If it doesn't, his licensing is wrong.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:39, 21 November 2011 (UTC)


Care to join me at [Army Bagde]? That file is coming back. Fry1989 eh? 21:53, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes I will, but first I'm trying to get Fastily to declare why he closed the discussion as deleted with no further comment. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
I saw your comment on his talk page, I'm hoping he is away from his computer and not just ignoring it. In any case, that file will come back, the evidence is explicitly clear. Fry1989 eh? 21:59, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Btw, I could still use yoru voice at that unDR. The law is extremely simple, and yet they're trying to make a case law out of it. Fry1989 eh? 23:32, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Future request

Hi its me again,just asking you, one day when you finish other stuff you need to do, please vectorize this flag Drax90 (talk) 17:30, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Please no personal attacks!

Comments like this this is unwanted on Commons. You may agree but there is no need to make comments like this. --MGA73 (talk) 20:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I commented on the content not the contributor, ie what he said, not who/what he is, ergo no personal attack. Just a case of calling 'em as I see 'em. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Reading the edit summary "keep on the basis that the nominator has exceeded his daily bullshit limit" I can't see it any other way than it is a comment about the user. --MGA73 (talk) 23:27, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
To be pedantic the summary is about his bullshit limit, not about him per se. Both summary and my prose are about the inane reason for deletion. Not about him as a person, though if you like I would be more than happy to provide a personal attack so you could make a comparison. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 23:40, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
You know, I was about to say the same thing (roughly). You accurately describe someones' actions as the vandalism or nonsense that they are for whatever reasons apply, and it's a "personal attack", No, a real personal attack is calling someone names, not their actions. Grow a thicker skin if you can't handle your own actions being scrutinized. Fry1989 eh? 23:43, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Discussions on Commons is not about having someone to back you up and support everything you say. It is about giving the right arguments and information and to give them in a proper way. I suggest that you read the arguments and advise other users give to you. It will help you a lot and save you a lot of problems. --MGA73 (talk) 00:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

It may look like Fred and I are "having eachother's back", but the simple fact is he and I think alot alike, and have similar expertise. He and I could just as easily not like eachother or get along at all like many users on Commons. Fry1989 eh? 00:19, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
And your expertise is most welcome. I just ask you to "listen" when other users want to share their expertise about copyright issues, policies etc. on Commons. I'm sure that we all have the same goal: to have a lot of good files on Commons. And with good I mean good quality, the right colours and design and the right license etc. --MGA73 (talk) 00:38, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


What does "Previous version was not an SVG file, it was a raster file encapsulated with an SVG wrapper" mean I've done wrong? I saved the image as SVG using the SVG 1.1 profile – but having just got Adobe Illustrator, to convert PSDs, mistakes are easily made. I could tell the 200px version did not look right, obviously for the reason you mention. What did you do differently? MarcusBritish (talk) 01:09, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

An SVG (Scalable Vector Graphic) is a vector file, whereas anything that comes out of Photoshop is a raster (or alternately a bitmap) file. If you place a raster graphic inside an SVG file it is still a raster image and behaves like a raster image when scaled up, ie the jaggies increase in size. It's not just a question of importing a PSD file into Illustrator then saving out as an SVG. A true SVG is a vector image so either has to be created in a vector package like Illustrator or Inkscape. If you want to convert a PSD (or any raster image like jpg, png, gif, tif etc) file then you would have to creat a new Illustrator file, place the PSD file onto the artboard then trace it. It would then need all sorts of tidying up etc so all in all it's better to start from scratch in vector form. This is what I did, hence the 1000% smaller file. If you want to check your version against mine just open them both in a text editor (yeah, an SVG file is a text file). Hope that helps. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I've been using Photoshop for years.. probably since version 5 or 6, then through CS1 to 5, so I am handy enough with that, as well as a few Adobe products like Lightroom and Premier for my photography/video editing. Only thing I can't stand is Flash – bores me to bloody tears! Did it all at Uni, back in the days when there was still Macromedia and Dreamweaver was "it" for web designers/coders like myself... well not that long ago, but long enough... but this "tracing" thing you mention is a new concept to me, which I haven't heard of. I'll have to look it up in online tutorials, and figure out what to do in future. Seems you converted my upload to SVG in 19 minutes.. so can't be a very complex procedure, compared with how long it took to Photoshop. Based on what you've told me, and the obvious difference in versions, Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Resources/PDF conversion to SVG/Adobe Illustrator is wrong, as there is no mention of tracing, only the direct PSD in, save as SVG out, method I used. MarcusBritish (talk) 01:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
If you can use the pen tool in PS then it's just an extension of that really, not to mention a reasonable knowledge of geometry for uniting, subtracting, excluding etc shapes from each other. Illustrator has quite a good trace utility but even so there are things it just wasn't designed for. You would have thought simple logos and shapes would be its target, but no, it's far better converting photo-real images to vector. The actual technique for tracing is exceptionally easy. It's basically as I said above. Create new file of an appropriate size and colour space. Go to File->Place and "place" the image you want traced on the artboard. Resize as necessary. Then you will see a "trace" button at the top under the menu. Don't click o that just yet, click on the down arrow next to it. Choose the very last option, customise. Then see if any of the presets suit your purposes, if not customise to your heart's content. If you're lucky you find one that works. Click trace. Then if you want to colour it using the Live Paint functions choose the "Live Paint" button at the top. If you don't and just want the vector as is, click the "expand" button. That will result in your raster image now being a vector. In most cases it won't look anything like what you wanted or needed. This is why I try to manual trace whenever I can. It's far more accurate and in most cases far quicker. As for Photoshop, yes, I've been using it since the early 90s, v2.0 I believe, the one before layers were added. In fact due to my trade I use pretty much all the Adobe Suite, and a lot that have gone by the wayside. I did use to Use Macromedia Homesite for webcoding in text form and took a long time to change over to Dreamweaver. Ultimately I changed because it made PHP, MySQL and AJAX integration easier and less time-consuming.--Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:11, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Looks like I'll need to practice a bit and get accustomed to the "Live Paint" and Trace options, et al, as I get fairly mixed results, like fuzzy edges, grey lines, while boxes, etc. Will get the hang of it, eventually, no doubt, as most sites say it's simpler than Photoshop, generally. Couldn't stand Dreamweaver for PHP/SQL work either.. over-rated bloated software in my opinion. Something plain like Notepad++ works best for me, as long as there's a matching tags highlighter, and syntax colouring, I can usually read and debug code quicker with my own eyes than relying on scripts and assortments of split screens like some Bond gizmo. I don't like relying on software to do everything, takes all the fun out of doing it yourself. Thanks again, MarcusBritish (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I take it you're not self-employed then? I am so I use whatever is quickest and easiest. I don't do much website work these days other than to maintain several sites having down all the hard work on the back-end. These days I spend most of my time in either Illustrator or Indesign. I seem to be spending less and less time in PS these days. So much so I tend to forget all about the new features and do things the old fashioned way. It's far easier for me to do that than spend billable hours learning how to use the new bells and whistles. I do have to admit to liking the new "content-aware fill", that saves me hours messing with the clone tool.
I do have a soft spot for Notepad++ (which I use when I'm using a PC) and use it for fine-tuning SVDs, but I do prefer Ultraedit. Currently I'm using a Mac so have to use Textmate as an editor and I really don't like it having got used to the other two. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:55, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not employed, period, because the type of work I'd like to do is not in great demand in the NE, perhaps 1% of jobs per month are in my field of interest, and I'm not skilled in manual labour, nor do I drive. There is a notable lack of employment opportunities and businesses wanting web designers/developers, graphic designers, photographers, or similar, in the NE. Have spent more time working in offices and call-centers, doing dull work than what I'd like to do. Problem with me is I'm not a city person, and don't like crowded places. Would much rather live in the country, maybe become a self-employed nature/landscape photographer, selling shots to canvas art printers, calendar manufacturers, etc for even a reasonable living.. don't need to be rich to enjoy that kind of life, rambling and post-editing. One day.. when this bloody government gets its act together, I'll feel more comfortable moving home, settling somewhere pleasant. The only city in the UK I do like, is Liverpool. But I've only visited it once and had an "idealistic" tour.. I expect living there is a lot tougher.
Like you, I haven't dabbled in websites for a while, apart from keeping my own up to date a few times a year. Seems to be a major depressive period for web production, lately, whereas when I started it was all the hype.. XHTML and CSS was excting, PHP was growing fast, hosting was booming. Now.. it's just.. meh! Same with online gaming. I was big on that too, once.. I played daily, hosted servers, ran phpBB forums, learned Photoshop, had dozens of msn contacts sharing the fun of it all. Again, another lost interest.. haven't reinstalled msn/Live for over a year. Don't even use my PC, it gathers dust whilst I use the laptop instead. This country has a way of having highs and lows, and giving people educations then offering nothing for it. I have interests in many things, from computing to history, geography, music, etc. But what can you do with it all when the UK is a lousy place to practice doing anything, these days? MarcusBritish (talk) 03:29, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
If you don't mind me saying, it seems to me that you are thinking too parochially. It also seems to me that you'd like to do the sort of thing I earn a living from, ie web design, layout design, book covers, book layouts, CD covers the occasional bit of video editing. If that's the case then it makes no difference where you are. My nearest client is about 200 miles away, the furthest 6000 miles. I work from home so although I can drive it's not necessary. 95% of my clients I've never met face to face, 50 I've never even talked to on the phone. This is mostly die to the fact that they don't care who I am or where I am, they only care about what I can deliver. To get an in you can forget about jobsites either on the web or off. If you want to do this trade what you need is an 'in'. When I started about 15 years ago it was nigh on impossible to get that 'in'. These days, if you use one's brains, it's a piece of piss. For example I recently got a book cover contract by volunteering to do a mock-up of a cover for someone I was following on Twitter. They said yes because I was offering to do it for nothing. I did the mock-up, both they and the publisher liked it and asked me to do the 'official' version at standard rates. So not only did I get a job out of it, I got an 'in' with that publisher and may get more work from them.
I'm an inveterate paranormal fiction reader. This is a very popular genre at the moment, and thanks to the Kindle popularising ebooks there are lots of new writers appearing in ebook-only form, yet they still need book covers. So I follow a few of the ones I really like on Twitter and Facebook. One in particular seems very nice, and you know how you can get a feel for someone after seeing how they interact with their fans? well this lady writer seemed very nice, so I sent her an email volunteering to do a necessary book cover for her. It was her first book she'd 'published' so although she knew how to write, she didn't have any contacts for doing illustrations, copy-editing etc. She was delighted for the offer, especially as I offered to do it for nowt. Now she'll probably use me for her second book but I'll charge, probably a couple of hundred quid, for that.
So basically what I'm saying is look at what you enjoy and see if there's a way to make money at it. There's always a way, you just have to find it, and if it's doing what you enjoy in a field you enjoy then all the better. It takes more than just knowing how to use Photoshop et al as they are just tools, if you have talent then people will pay you for it. The trick, a not particularly difficult one at that, is to find those people. Use ypur web writing skills to write a site that demonstrates your work so you can refer people to it. It doesn't matter if your site doesn't do well on Google, it's not there for that. Okay you may get the occasional drive-by request, but really all it's there for is to show prospective clients what you can do. Oh by the way, if you don't mind, I'd suggest not broadcasting on open fora that you are unemployed then start talking about using PS and AI. Unemployed people generally can't afford what is very expensive software. The Creative Suite 5.5 master Collection cost me over 2 grand (well a bit less really if you count the vat and tax I get back). So basically it could make people ask questions about how you got hold of the software. Just a thought. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Don't worry. My software is mostly legit. I don't P2P. I haven't been out of work for that long. And I'm not on Jobseekers. I don't have a portfolio to show what I can do, yet, and the odd things I've done in the past aren't worth shouting about. MarcusBritish (talk) 16:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Well there is plenty of work out there, you just have to go get it, so if you want your share of a nice pie you know what you have to do. In that 15 years or so, not have I managed to keep a roof over my head I've 'met', and spoke to, lots of interesting (and famous) people all without going outside my office. :) --Fred the Oyster (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh btw, File:Peninsular War Map.svg isn't an image that's suitable for SVG, even though the captions are in text form. Like your Luftwaffe logo it's basically just another PNG encapsulated in an SVG wrapper. File:Peninsular War Map.svg would be better as a straight-forward png file, either 8-bit or 24-bit. Some images are appropriate for vectorisation such as logos and images of solid colour, or limited gradients. Photo-real images are rarely suitable. If you truly wanted your war map to be vectorised then you would need to do an autotrace of the underlying map, and then put the captions on top. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 21:58, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I know, I'm remaking it from scratch. I keep getting errors though. I traced the map. Retyped the labels in Ai instead of PS transfer. But I keep getting "XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace" in Firefox. In IE it loads, minus the "battle icon" markers. I'm assuming I can't use an SVG in an SVG? If I use a PNG version of the it looks pixelated .... oh wait, I just traced the SVG.PNG version of the icon and then it looks right. I get it now.. Sorry.. I'm learning by doing and playing about with the options. I remember methods better if I trial and error, and make a few mistakes rather, than follow a perfect tutorial and forget later on what to do. I gather now that "tracing" is a form of converting from raster to vector and rendering it to work as a vector on the artboard so that it can be scaled and such. MarcusBritish (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if I've pissed on your chips, but I've already done it. And yes you can put one svg inside another. Just "place" it on the artboard (unless it's another AI file, in which case open the file then copy and paste into our work file). I've also redone the 'crossed swords' symbol as it has a load of Inkscape markup inside it which can cause problems when using inside Illustrator. For SVGs to be proper SVGs they mustn't have anything that's a raster inside them otherwise when scaled up (or printed) it soon becomes apparent which is vector and which is raster. Vector will always print at the maximum resolution the print device can attain, raster will only print at its own dpi setting.
As for text, SVGs work on the same principle as HTML pages, ie the font will only display if that font is on the viewers computer. That's why it's better to use pseudo universal fonts like Arial and Times Roman etc. The may render slightly differently under Wikimedia, but that renderer is totally fucked anyway. It causes us illustrators so much damn heartache it's unbelievable. Please also don't forget that you will only see the true SVG if you click on the link. Any other time you are seeing a PNG of what the Wikimedia renderer thinks it looks like. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 23:57, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I restarted with the swords too. The latest version is virtually Photoshop-free. Apart from fading the major borders between the counties as it was too dark, everything is done in Ai. Got it down to 13Mb and looking okay. Not sure why, but your version rendered Times New Roman fonts on mine, instead of Arial. MarcusBritish (talk) 00:14, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
For some reason AI adds MT onto the font names so I tend to go in to the file with a text editor and do a bit of trimming and pruning. I may have missed some though. Plus at the moment I'm on a Mac so can't check what it looks like on a PC. I just used the original downloaded swords svg and optimised it, then set up one of them as a symbol then replicated it as many times as was necessary. ou can save a fair few bytes doing it that way, not to mention that if I wanted to change the symbol I'd only have to do it the once and all the changes would cascade down to all the other instances.--Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I see your version came out at ~10Mb, mine at a crazy 70Mb.. I think I set the map trace way too detailed, as it came out crystal clear, whereas your version was a bit more blurred. Am redoing the trace but less intense so I can reupload a much smaller file. Doesn't need to be "that" detailed. MarcusBritish (talk) 23:52, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Ah, now the reason mine is smaller than yours is mostly because I didn't use outlined text, and because, as I said above I used symbols for the swords. The trace I did was just the high-resolution photo preset. The thing is, is the relief map really necessary, couldn't you use one of the Spanish locator map svgs to get the same result (without all the topography) at a fraction of the filesize (probably 200-300k)? The only reason these files are so large is because of the 'relief' aspect which isn't actually being used for anything other than eye candy really. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:33, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
So I gather symbols are a bit like in Flash projects where you use instances (if I recall), thus one symbol creates one "size" in the file that can be repeated with less impact, rather than the way I copy/pasted the icon around the map creating separate instances? I tried without outlined text, couldn't get a good result, even with system fonts.
I don't like plain maps much, especially in Good (or better) Articles. When used as a military map, one also gets a better idea of the terrain. Plain maps seem better using for geolocating in infoboxes, when they're quite small, but this one is more an illustration, in the article I wrote, aimed at old-school historians, like myself, than a pin-point digitally accurate map. MarcusBritish (talk) 00:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Re the symbols, yes bang on. Any shape you want to be a symbol, just create the shape. Drag it into the shapes palette (Ace of clubs icon) and et voila you have a symbol. Should you then want to edit the symbol, just double click one of the symbols and it will take you into 'isolation mode' where you can edit it. As for the fonts, outlining text can make a file much larger, even when there's only a few instances. So usually unless there's a specific reason to use a particular font sticking to common fonts is usually considered better. This is only partly because of the filesize issue. usually it's because the text remains editable should someone else want to do, say for example, a translated version. If the text is outlined then they have to start the text from scratch and then they may not have the specific font used in the first place. Part of the reason system fonts can look a little iffy is because the renderer only supports so many fonts natively (there's a full list somewhere but I'm buggered if I can remember what the link is) and for some reason tends to render them larger than it should. So basically you have to make a choice as to what the aim of your illustration is. If you want to make it look best via the renderer then you are best off using the fonts the renderer supports (the Bitstream open-source fonts are always a good place to start). Unless you want the fonts to look right for offline usage then you are better using one of the common faults. It's a similar state to having to use images on the web to make sure people saw the text exactly how you wanted to see them. After all, an SVG file is just a glorified html page. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:04, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Strictly speaking then the relief map should have been a PNG, though having said that doing the work in Illustrator with vector shapes (with the exception of the map of course), then outputting to png can result in a sharper result than doing it in PS. As in all things it's the correct image type for the job and for the result required. Personally if I were you, I'd take the work you'd done now (prior to tracing the map) use the vector sword symbols and text then output it to a 24 bit png. You'll get a sharp result, the text will be exactly how you want it and you won't end up with a massive file.
A good way of learning techniques in Illustrator is to manually trace geometric designs like those on military shoulder sleeve insignias etc. I do tons of them because they are quick to do and I find them very therapeutic and relaxing. And they're a brilliant way to learn techniques in AI. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:14, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Alright, I'll look into it. I think now a couple of people have seen that I'm willing to reproduce insignia for Military History articles, I might get the odd request from time to time. I found the list you mentioned, here it is again FYI: I have a fair bit to learn yet with Ai, it seems a pretty good program, and converting this map to a vector image has been and interesting step, as has your SVG 101 advice. Perhaps some WebHamster's aren't as bad as I first thought... in the right cage. ;) Cheers, MarcusBritish (talk) 01:29, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not the person people think I am, it's as simple as that. But yes AI is a great program but with just as steep a learning curve as PS. quite possibly steeper. In a lot of ways it's also quite restrictive and it's a very frequent occurrence where I say to myself, ah now if I was in PS I'd just do such-and-such so how he hell do I do it in AI? Having said that, it's doing artwork for SVG, rather than native AI for print, that is the true bugger, partly because of Wikimedia's truly awful renderer (try doing anything with a gradient other than a plain linear or circular one, and you can totally forget gradient meshes!) and partly because of the limitations of the format. It's fun to learn it though. I'm still learning new ways of doing things all the time, both in AI and PS. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:38, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Agreed, it's fun and it's sometimes surprising to realise what a small percent of tools you use most of the time. Although, if you have a job-based workload, like yourself, you probably use almost all of them eventually. I wish Ai had a "History" window, though, to help keep track of what I'm doing and for undoing slip-up or test-edits faster. I also find it annoying in PS when you're working on a layer, change layer, do something then undo it for whatever reason and try again, to find that it has switched back to the layer you were last on before the undo. Despite having that happen to me loads of times, for years, I frequently forget. Used to do all of my photo editing slowly in Photoshop, but since I switched to DSLR, from regular digital, and take RAW shots, I enjoy using Lightroom more for all but airbrushing spots, blemishes, wrinkles, or making major changes, it's a very nifty and easy-to-use editor with a nice interface. Have found I can process dozens of pics in half the time it takes to do only a couple in PS, and with no need to keep saving each photo as a new file, except exports, to retain the edits. Got to admire the way media technology has moved on so much in the past decade. MarcusBritish (talk) 02:40, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Although I've used Lightroom and Aperture I don't have any real use for them as my photography days ended a long time ago in the days of Kodachrome and XP1. I keep meaning to put my old Minolta X700 on to ebay but invariably I chicken out and think I may get some use out of the old girl. As for technology moving on, well yes, too bloody fast for my ageing brain. It's moving way to fast for me now so I tend to use the mantra "learn what you need" rather than keeping up with everything, or rather trying to. When I started on the net circa '92 it was quite easy to keep up with things, but now, it's spiralling exponentially.
Ah, PS's undo. I just think of it as a step backward rather than an undo, which is why I tend to use ctrl-shift-Z instead and accept that anything I did is undone. The one big thing about PS that has caught me out a couple of times is complicated filtering, ie filters on top of filters, on top of filters. I once did this album cover. I was working in RGB and forgot I was in RGB. An element of the cover was a gorgeous shade of scarlet (the whole thing was achieved by a whole load of filtering and the client loved it. Then I converted it to CMYK and the scarlet turned into, what could only be called a shitty shade of rust. The client hated it. So I had to go back to the start and try and replicate it in CMYK from the start in a new file. This is when I discovered I couldn't remember how I'd achieved the effect. There were so many layers and so many comps for different versions that I just couldn't figure out the correct order of steps. In the end I just had to bullshit the client into understanding that things always look different when printed. Later I discovered that PS has a logging facility, ie it creates a text file of every step taken in an image. Boy could I have done with that for that cover.
I notice you did an alternate png of that relief map. I think it looks far better than the svg, much sharper...until enlarged and printed of course but I rather doubt that's going to happen. At screen resolutions it looks great. As I said earlier, it's always better to use the right image format for the right job.
Oh yes, whilst I remember, yes I do genuinely have Asperger's and it is generally accepted to be on the autistic spectrum. So I am both Asperger's and autistic. And yes I have had a series of mini-strokes in the last few months, as well as a heart op in July (a coronary stent inserted into my left circumflex coronary artery). Just thought I'd let you know ;) They are all just facts, not a sympathy vote. The only reason I mentioned the strokes was just in case I got my words wrong and the wrong meaning came out. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:58, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

If you have only been diagnosed with Asperger's, which is a derivative of autism then they're one in the same. Bit like someone saying they have Hypertension, it is high blood pressure, but you can't have Hypertension and high blood pressure. If you are told you both, the it's two conditions, with different symptoms. Trouble these days is medicine, despite being an old practice, keeps finding new strains of everything, then having to name, categorised and classified it so it can be specifically identified and treated internationally. I'm all for a good health service, but it must be mind-boggling to diagnose things accurately. A lot of mental health issue can now be identified through blood or genetics, which is good as it's a lot more accurate than a psychiatrist making his best guess, resulting in the optimal treatment and not being given medication that may have an adverse or negligible effect. I'm sure a lot of criminals who were jailed years ago, and simply considered "psychos" can now be properly reassessed to see if their actions were beyond their capacity to control. It's also what gets a lot of "crazed" killers from going to the chair in the US. And that, is why a lot of people, like myself, are often cynical when people say they have condition X, Y or Z to explain away their behaviour. I'm afraid I don't agree that if a guy slaughters, say, 12 women over 15 years in some kind of "night stalker" fashion, and then it turns out he has a mental condition, that he should get a reduced or "fairer" sentence, or even leniency to escape the chair, only to be preened in prison on the tax-payers bill until he dies there. I don't think a guy who claims to have been beaten and abused by his father should get sympathy when he grows up and beats and rapes women, or worse, kids. It's just my frame of mind and the way I hate governments (especially the EU) going soft in minority areas of society, turning victims and their families into wrecks because their attacker/killer was "not of sound mind". I believe every man is solely responsible for his actions. You know, I truly believe that if Hitler had been around now, he'd have hired a greedy bastard British lawyer, claimed his father beat him and made him mad, and probably would have gotten off with his crimes and a tax-funded life in anonymous luxury protection. Because that's the world we live in now. So when I see a guy on Wiki, like I saw with "Webhamster", to be honest, it's not against you personally, not the man on the machine.. it's just me thinking, "oh not another one" when I read things like you put, whether true or not. I realise strokes and autism are genuine cases, and explain a few things, rather than apologise for them. It's more because so many people now do the "I have ADH/ADHD/depression/anxiety/alcoholic" cliché to gain sympathy, to claim benefits and avoid work, to excuse themselves from rioting or shoplifting, or their kids from being brats with ASBOs. There comes a point when so many people are taking the piss to be free-criminals, tax cheats, druggies, drink-drivers, etc that the frauds outnumber the genuine cases, and put the whole system to shame. Just as people are now taking refuge in this country under false claims of being persecuted back home for being gay, political, etc. It puts the real refugees from war/poverty torn countries to shame, and they eventually suffer, because the more the government has to fish out on squanderers, the more genuine people loose out. So please donm't think of me as immoral.. far from it. I simply have strong views on some points. I could happily go into all the prisons in the country, take all the proven murderers, rapists, pedos and terrorists, stick a £2 quid bullet in their head, and free up £millions for the NHS to use on cancer care, and such. For each guy getting £thousands spent on him a year in a cosy cell, how many kids, parents, old people die? As for less heinous convictions, the sentencing is all screwed up anyway. Shorter sentences, with inmates required to work, paid, taxed, with a large percent sent to the victims, or local councils as damages. I also think, given that we don't have the death penalty here, that every time a murderer, rapist, pedo, terrorist gets convicted, his lawyers should not be paid for their luxury living standards, but should be made to pay. So yeah.. ranting far too much now.

Apologies that my comments on Wiki seemed strongly against you. Wiki is a macrocosm of the real world. From the hard-working and genuinely good and honest people, right down to the misfits, arseholes, vandals and such. Yes, there are even classes, money makers, and proceedings that reflect the world just as disproportionately and unfairly. Both need major reform, starting at the top. Wiki has the same structure as the world: a pyramid. Not suggesting Jimbo is the very tip, though, just in the top dog section, although not all top dogs are bad, usually it's the underlings in any system that profits most and pisses on everyone below – bit like MPs in that fashion, or the First and Second Estates of the French ancien régime. Even Hitler's generals. Your case on Wiki was simply an opportunity to highlight the fact that "some get off to easily at the cost of others". That about summarises it, though. Could have been anyone, wasn't about "Webhamster", was about the circumstances and community reaction more than anything. Probably got a bit too "soapbox" and carried away in the end. I still think there's many a corrupt admin will somehow partake in cause Wiki's downfall one of these days.

And to be honest, and taking what you said, I think you come across as a far better person on Commons that on Wiki. Perhaps because it's more in your element, and people respect your artwork and graphical skill more than your Wiki content. Just hazarding a guess, though.

Hope that makes sense. Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 17:00, 30 November 2011 (UTC)


I notice you make a lot of flag images, so I hope you can answer this. If I got this book and went about creating some of the images therein, as vectors, for military history articles, would that be considered a direct copyvio, or does it not apply because the "real" flags were designed like 200 years ago? Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 02:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately I do, but I hate doing the sodding things, CoAs too. But to your question. Well it's very similar to paraphrasing citations. It all depends on whether or not the book's author(s) has illustrated the flags based on his/her own interpretation of a written down blazon. If they have and you copy it exactly then that is a copyvio. Whereas if you do your own interpretation based on the blazon or his illustrations but you've done a bit of 'visual paraphrasing' then you're probably okay. To be on the safe side just don't make them bang on exact. Put a bit of yourself in them. I've always maintained that an illustration is not, and doesn't have to be, an exact replication of the subject matter. So long as you get the main bits and keep to any written down specs (eg specific colours like pantones) then the rest is open to interpretation and creativity. If they want it exact they they get a photographer not an illustrator. Well that's my take on things anyway. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:14, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay, cheers, that's one useful approach I suppose, to avoid copyvio issues. This book is one of those with b/w images throughout then a few colour plates on glossy center pages. A lot of the flags are therefore b/w outline diagrams with the author detailing the colours used. I doubt too many banners exist now from those days, many of the French ones were destroyed by the Bourbons when Bonaparte abdicated and after his exile.. bastards were eager to sweep his rule under the rug. A few were hidden away, and probably exist in very worn/faded condition in museums. Should be easy enough to get the standard design accurate in terms of proportion and placement of colours, crests, symbols, etc then personalise the regimental variations a little to differ from book illustrations. Thanks, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 02:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
I've had a few things destroyed by bourbons too. It's the bloody chocolate they use, it's a bitch to get out of cotton traders polo shirts! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Lol.. riiight! Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 02:45, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

You said somewhere that it's usually better to use System Fonts when saving as SVG. The last SVG I created File:Bowling ball core.svg wouldn't display Arial font unless I used Convert to Outline. I just looked at the code and it reads font-family="'ArialMT'" or font-family="'Arial-BoldMT'" which, if I replace with font-family="'Arial'" plus font-weight="Bold" for the bold parts, works fine. What's with the "MT" stuff? I Googled about it, but no one seems to have a direct answer. Should I upload my edited version to Commons or will it not render with these changes? The unedited version only displays in "Times New Roman" in my browser, but the Arial displays in Ai itself. There is no "Arial MT" font-family in my Fonts dir (on Windows 7). Odd? I notice the difference is that the Converted Outline SVG is ~48kb, whilst System Font SVG is ~5kb, of the bowling ball file, so I definitely see your earlier point. It would help if Ai didn't use non-existent or proprietary Adobe font names. Is there a fix for this, or will only manually adjusting the SVG file afterwards correct this issue? Thanks, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 23:10, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd been meaning to look into this for my own education but just never got round to it. Your question prompted me to get my arse in gear. "ArialMT" is the postscript name "Arial" is the Full name/Family name/Windows name. For some reason AI is using the PS name by default. I have no idea why but if I were to guess it would be that there's some old code in there somewhere that someone just hasn't got round to changing. I had a quick look through some fonts on this Mac system and verdana, geneva, georgia, tahoma, times-roman (not new times-roman), helvetica, AriaUnicodeMS, courier (not courier new), garamond, gill sans (not gill sans mt) all have the same postscript name as their full name (with the odd couple having spaces missing from multi word names). I hope that helps. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Oops, almost forgot. The MT is reference to the fact that the font comes from the Monotype foundry. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah, yes, OT and TT, so MT... I see what you mean now about the Wiki renderer being selectively arsey with System fonts.. doesn't even render Garamond or Palatino Linotype which have been used by Win/Mac since Bill Gates was in diapers.. crazy and frustrating. Even Arial renders badly in places. Who wrote Wiki's rendering code, they need to get their finger out with the font support. Doesn't help when people go to a lot of trouble creating vectors any look like a donkey's hind leg in Wiki, even when W3C valid. Think, when it comes to Wiki, converting to objects is worth it just to get a decent result, in some cases. I see what you mean about Ai having a different learning curve to PS.. is a whole different ball game. Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 01:19, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

User talk:Fry1989#November 2011

Since when does two edits (and the clear intention to stay away from somethig in the future) make an "edit war"? Bunch of trigger-happy fools if you ask me. Like I said, they like to shoot the messenger than deal with the real problem. Fry1989 eh? 22:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

These youngsters don't know what a war looks like... when I were a lad... errr, there wasn't a really good war then either, ah well. Such is life in the fast lane of Commons politics. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Oh well, Commons is my main place of habit, the block on Wikipedia English is of little consquence to me. Fry1989 eh? 00:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
My block just irritates me because I can't insert images I've done here or can't answer half the requests in the Image Workshop. What does irritate the hell out of me though is how they're always going on about how we're all volunteers, but the project always takes, it never gives. Like for example my block. For 8 years I've been a productive editor with a cumulative total of around 30k edits and countless illustrations and images, yet in all that time I've got involved in about 2 or 3 major...ish ding dongs, hell I got blocked for calling Jimbo a money manager, WTF? Yet for all that work and effort, they won't give back a little by being lenient. The problem is there's too many fucking jobsworths, sycophants and miserable, humour-starved twats over there. I have to admit it is far more mellow over here. Damn you're lucky if you can see more than half-a-dozen admins in a week. As the old saying goes though, "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke". --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, I know what you mean. If you want, I can coordinate with you to insert some things you've done, it's the least I can do for your help with so many files. Btw, since the file is hosted on Commons, I don't supposed you'd be able to finish the Massachusetts seals request you took on before (when you have time ofcourse). My block will be gone in two weeks (if it's not reviewed before then, as I have requested), but then I'm going on a vacation from Dec 12th to Jan 9th, so my internet access will be limited. I'll be able to keep an eye on things here and there, but I won't be able to do any work on new files, my mate's computer is too old for inkscape, and we'll be busy with other things anyways. I hope you have some plans for the holidays too Fry1989 eh? 01:59, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't remember if you have interacted with Takabeg as well, but if you have, [2] should interest you. Fry1989 eh? 02:20, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Only in minor ways, but have no fear, I'm already there with the fire blanket. Oh and bt thanks for the above offer. Currently they have allowed me to make edit requests of image inclusions etc but that's only from commons files. I haven't figured out how to get FUR images to there yet. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Btw, I do jaywalk. But only downtown, where it's legal ;). Anyhow, as for Jetijones, he and I often disagree, sometimes notoriously. Doesn't excuse him from lying and being completely hypocritical about sources, or trying to turn around an AN/U and make it about the reporter, rather than the person being reported. Fry1989 eh? 02:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
Hey, congrats on the new right of File Mover! As for the "home of drama" that is AN/U, looks like it's simmering down a bit, thanks again for your input, as always :). Fry1989 eh? 00:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Cheers, but it's just one more thing they can take off me when they think I'm misbehaving :) And I'm surprised it's simmering down, what with all the bladders full of gas! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 00:30, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Atleast you got it. I asked two months ago and was denied because one admin who regularily renames files, opposed me out of philosophical disagreements about what is eligible to be renamed. He has previously denied several of my proposed file renames, even when I was able to show that they meet two, sometimes even 3 of the valid reasonings for renaming. He also had a problem with walking two sides of the same street, because there was a set of 12 images I asked to be renamed, all under the same reason. He did about half of them, then suddenly just stopped, and started saying "that's not a valid reason for renaming". Well make up your damn mind, is it valid or not? Anyhow, I'll re-request the right in early next year. Fry1989 eh? 00:38, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Gadget Update: UserMessages

Hi Fred!

Thanks for testing and using AxUserMsg.js . This is essentially important for developers and highly appreciated. The script is now available in your preferences. This will also speed-up page loading.

If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask me or put them here. Even if you dislike a new feature.

Thank you! -- RE rillke questions? 13:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Missing permission information for File:Prehenseur adaptateur culasse piston cotes.svg

This is extracted from a french exam, therefore public domain. Just let me the time to change the licence to PD-because.


Cdang (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

File:Hexagonal hR and primitive cell.png

Hi Fred,

I've seen you put a {{svg}} template on this file. I'm afraid the program I use to create crystallographic diagrams doesn't have the option to export svg. I suppose the reason for the template is that the thick black lines were not smooth. I've managed to make a new version which looks better, tell me if it's ok to leave it like that. Greetings, Perditax (talk) 17:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It's fine if you can't do it, the tag is there for anyone who has a mind to can recreate the image in vector form, even if they do it manually. And yes it does look better at the higher resolution, but ultimately it's still a bitmap which has a limited resolution. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)


I noticed your image has two buildings labeled as 6 WTC. I think one should be 7 WTC. 20:17, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for letting me know --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

a crap picture is worth... better than my crap explanations

WikiProject Scouting trefoil greyscale solid.svg

File:Commons test for Fred delete when done.png this is what I mean by "solid", sorry for making extra work for you. Use the art you've been working on, ignore this crappy thing except roughly where the grey is supposed to be.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Will this do? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:26, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Yikes! Though that's very cool, I only made my version to show you where the grey goes. If you could make your earlier File:WikiProject Scouting trefoil inverse (sans outer ring).svg solid, and grey with white stars, that's it. This one was just my test to explain myself, sorry.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:05, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Sorry mate, I'm really not getting it. Do you want the 'sans circle' with a background circle of one shade of grey, whilst the 'leaves' are another shade and the stars are white? And ot of interest do you have an idea in mind for a specific usage? I don't want to go to all this time and effort for the file to not get used? I've had problems in the past with that, though not with you as far as I'm aware. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:30, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Just offering an interpretation here, after seeing the one they linked, but sounds like they mean "remove the black outline/stroke of the clover/stars", like this one you did well over a year ago, which also initially had a black stroke that was removed in later versions: File:WikiProject Scouting trefoil blank.svg Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 19:18, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
I've redone my original based on the work you've already done. I hope this is clearer.
  1. Instead of being 7 fingernail pieces, I want them linked as a single solid grey clover
  2. this clover should have a thin black outline
  3. the stars should be centered within their individual petals
I promise I'm not wasting your time-this will serve the same purpose as the grey Boy Scout emblem-"image missing, unknown or requested". Thanks and sorry for the confusion--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
Anyway I've put my image up for deletion, does this give you the idea of what is needed? Thanks as always!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:11, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Basically what I'd already done, but with a stalk added. Is this better? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:01, 7 December 2011 (UTC)
Yeah! Reverse the stalk (mirrored image), thin black border around the works and it's done, I'm out of your hair so to speak!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 07:40, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I've reversed the stalk and increased the size of the pre-existing stroke, or does it need to be thicker. The original stroke was 0.25pt, now it's 0.5pt. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 09:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
How many licks ~does~ it take to get to the center of a TootsieRoll Pop? Perhaps we'll never know. ;) Can you make the border visible at the size it appears on your talkpage? Is it possible to get close to the bordering of File:WikiProject Scouting fleur-de-lis greyscale.svg? Thanks and sorry for the back-forth. お疲れ様です‏ (I honor your tiredness-I love how the Japanese say stuff.)--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 12:46, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure as I've never seen, much less tried a TootsieRoll Pop, but it does sound like the sort of thing I would eat. After all I do like my insulin to have a good workout! So here ya go, how does 1pt stroke on the outside do you, and 0.5pt stroke on the inner shapes? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 20:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Fantastic, thank you!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Vacation template

I'm going on vacation tomorrow, and I'd like to add a template to my user page and talk page stating this. I know of the {wikibreak} template, but it just says "user is away for a while and will be back soon". Is there another template, or a way to augment the wikibreak template, so I can add a personal message to it, like how long I'll be gone, and "if you want to contact me, please be patient for a reply" and so forth? Fry1989 eh? 01:30, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry mate, I'm afraid I don't. I'm not too hot on template coding either, it's been far too long since I did one. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 10:00, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
{{wikibreak}} does let you add a message. See the list of parameters at: en:Template:Wikibreak, | message = being one of them. Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 20:59, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Copyright violation

Hi! You marked File:Logo Keosys.jpg as a copyright violation. I don't agree, so I turned it into a normal deletion request instead. You can discuss the matter at Commons:Deletion requests/File:Logo Keosys.jpg. --Stefan4 (talk) 11:50, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Nah, can't be arsed, I don't really feel strongly enough to use up any of my daily word quota. Thanks for letting me know though. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


See it please. Antaya wanted especially a PNG version. Thanks. Dark Attsios (talk) 17:52, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The svg version wouldn't be for fr. it would be for Commons, and anyone can do the svg, it doesn't have to be you. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 18:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
Smile I understood it, but I don't think it's really necessary. Just for information. Have a nice day. Dark Attsios (talk) 19:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for redrawing those old images in .svg format! I guess you saw them on the Graphics Lab? I've been dying to get rid of them so I can delete that category. You're a god among men, sir. Premeditated Chaos (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

No probs. I couldn't reply on en. as I'm blocked there, but I'll try to get the remaining two knocked off today. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 10:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, that reminds me. You deleted en:File:ProblemFramesInterfaces.png thinking it was already on Commons. Unfortunately you were a bit quick off the mark and deleted it before I got a chance to move it across to commons. As such only the svg version exists. It's up to you whether you wish to undelete it or or not. If you do let me know and I'll move it across. I hope you check in on this as I can't edit on Wikipedia. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:29, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't realize you were blocked. Hm. You have access to your own talk page I see...I've added it to my watchlist, and I'll keep an eye out for edit requests from you. As far as the ProblemFrames picture goes, I don't think it's a big deal either. The .svg is here, and the original is public domain so we can do what we want with it. And also, thank you thank you for doing the other two kinship charts - I can finally delete that old cleanup category. I couldn't possibly persuade you to look at en:Category:User-created_public_domain_images_from_June_2004, could I? =) Premeditated Chaos (talk) 01:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
When you say "have a look at", do you mean vectorise them, or simply move them? BTW, if you're going to watchlist any page, it would be better if you watchlisted WebHamster as that's the only Wikipedia page I edit now. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 11:58, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I mean vectorise, sorry. I can move and then delete them with CommonsHelper on my own. I have changed my watchlist selection to WebHamster =) Premeditated Chaos (talk) 07:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Attacks Editions.

I hope this is the last time you make changes to my profile without authorization, I do not authorize you to make any changes to it, plus you have no right to accuse me like that. If you do that again I will have to report you to the other administrators. --BEARMAN 13:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Report away sunshine. I don't need "authorisation" to edit your user page, it's just one more page on a wiki, ie can be edited by anyone, as mine is. As for the "accusation" of plagiarism, well young man, your contribution history and talk page show how accurate that assessment and gives all the evidence necessary to back it up. So as I said, please feel free to report me to any admin, or even Jimbo, his mighty holiness, himself. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:09, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Young man ? Ofcurse.... As always, the olders underestimating the youngones.. How pathetic you are.--BEARMAN 14:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Is that the best a philosopher can do? How disappointing. I'll leave you now so you can rip off some more images from the net. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:30, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Nop ! I am not the best,and I scream to the sky so to let everybody knows...! Mr...--BEARMAN 14:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


Hello, I wrote to you asking. You have created SVG flag map of Italy, I like the SVG flag map. But the problem is that I do not know SVG graphics. That's why I asked you, could you create SVG flag map of Lombardy and the flag map Sardinia? Дмитрий-5-Аверин (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


Hi, Fred the Oyster: How are you?

Regarding what brought me to your talk page: The File:AAC.svg file was marked for speedy deletion based on copyright infringement. Allow me to defend that that file was incorrectly marked.

I'm the author of this version and released it under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 license and the GFDL. But, or course, what matters is the original work, of which mine is a derivative off: The original is a 1927 work by Fernando Pimentel: it was never registered (neither by the author or even by AAC itself), and even if it were its copyright would be expired.

Because it is a logo there is almost certainly no free equivalent. Any substitute that is not a derivative work would fail to convey the meaning intended, would tarnish or misrepresent its image, or would fail its purpose of identification or commentary.

This image enhances the article in which it's displayed, as it provides an immediate relevance to the reader more capably than the textual description alone.

This image does not limit the copyright holder's ability (if there would be one) to profit from the original source, nor will it dilute the importance or recognition of the logo in connection with its organization.

So, I believe that the use of the logo in wikipedia is legitimate, not only under fair use but mainly because it doesn't constitute copyright infringement as it could seem.

Tiagodovale (talk) 16:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

All artwork has an immediate and automatic copyright, one doesn't have to "register" to obtain that right. That copyright extends from when it was first 'published', ie made public, through between 25-70 years after the artist's death (depending on the country's laws of where it was first published). So just because it was a 1927 work does not necessarily mean it is now automatically out of copyright. So additionally you may not have the right to relicense it. Please also note that the copyvio notice states that it "may" be a copyright violation, not that it "is" one. It just means that a closer look needs to be taken by one of the admins. It doesn't mean that it will be automatically deleted without anyone else taking another look at it.
Incidentally the boilerplate you added onto the end of the above message is used for fair right usage of which there is no "fair use" on copyright on Commons. It has to be freely licensed or it gets deleted. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Greek Military OR rank insignia names

Hello. I see you've renamed the images. Thank you. However, is it possible to rename them according to the systems they've already beeen named after (those recommended on the rename template), because they are named according to seniority ie "a" is higher than "b" (while those with only one rank are not appended any letter to disambiguate). Now some ranks start at number 2 (those that have multiple ranks at the same pay grade), others at number 1, etc. The ranks such as those at Category:Hellenic Navy officer rank insignia, Category:Hellenic Navy officer rank insignia and the officer ranks at Category:Insignia_of_the_Hellenic_Air_Force, which have already been named according to the previous naming system, now do not follow the naming system. Also, File:GR-Navy-OR7b.svg, File:Hellenic Air Force OR-1.svg and File:GR-Navy-OR9.1.svg now don't seem to follow the rest anymore. It's much more consistent if the OR pay grade images were renamed according to the previous naming system as per the officer ranks. Cheers. --Officer781 (talk) 05:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The only reason I did as I did was because the "move and replace" buttons I use leave behind a redirect page from the old filename, this of course caused problems as your suggested names coincided with some of the old filenames. The only way I could do it (as I don't have file deletion rights) is to use a totally different naming scheme. This is why I chose to use the one I did. As I was going through the "other ranks" category I saw there was a combination of the two schemes so as there were on 2 or 3 of the old scheme I chose to rename them with the new scheme.
I didn't do it to be awkward or because I thought it was better. Ultimately, I had no choice if I was to clear the backlog of renames. I realise your problem too, but I think the two naming structures can co-exist as they have the same basic structure. Like a comes before b, 1 comes before 2 which is just as well as the alternative is to find all the redirect pages, put them up for speedy deletion, then find an admin who will deleted all of them then go back and rename all the ones I renamed then maybe delete all the redirects that come from that renaming. A lot of work for an OCDish desire to keep all schemes the same. Incidentally, I don't use "OCDish" in a pejorative manner, I'm autistic and suffer from OCD. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 19:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)--Fred the Oyster (talk) 19:35, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Anyway, the work you did was very extensive yeah, so thanks a lot. Just to make the OR ranks uniform, could you rename File:GR-Navy-OR9.1.svg, File:Hellenic Air Force OR-1.svg, File:GR-Navy-OR7b.svg and File:Hellenic Air Force OR-9.svg to File:GR-Navy-OR9-1.svg, File:Hellenic Air Force OR-1-1.svg, File:GR-Navy-OR7-3.svg and File:Hellenic Air Force OR-9-1.svg to make at least the OR ranks uniform. Thanks a bunch! --Officer781 (talk) 01:09, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


Saw your posting on AN about mini-strokes. My family has dealt with strokes, and it's no picnic. My best wishes for your continued health. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Fucking your boots

That comment was really rather unhelpful. -mattbuck (Talk) 16:31, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

But a mere shadow of what I wanted to say. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


I appreciate your recent contributions. Than you! OAlexander (talk) 14:21, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Please remain calm and collegial

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Dialog-warning.svg It is important to keep a cool head, especially when responding to comments against you or your edits. Personal attacks and disruptive comments only escalate a situation; please keep calm and remember that action can be taken against other parties if necessary. Please try to remain civil with your comments. Thanks!

Avoid name calling like you did here and other comments meant to demean other users like you did here.

MorganKevinJ(talk) 01:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

That was me remaining civil. If I had intended incivility I would have described him as a "cunt", but even I know that is uncivil, so I didn't.--Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

You need to refactor your comment

Your last post in the Fae admin thread looks like a reply to me. I don't think it is meant to be.--Peter cohen (talk) 02:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I was replying to your post, but if I haven't made it clear I was referring to Fae then I shall go do so this very minute. Sorry. --02:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Surely it is relevant that a candidate for admin does not udnerstand policy and keeps on being on the losing side of votes?--Peter cohen (talk) 02:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
You're right. I hadn't looked at it like that, I was looking for the relevance with regard to hypocrisy rather than simple ineptness :) --Fred the Oyster (talk) 02:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

National Brain Fart day

Could you please remove your personal attack at Commons:Deletion requests/File:DiscursoDePilsudski1932.jpeg? Thanks. --Saibo (Δ) 20:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

And even more here: Commons:Deletion requests/File:Pilsudski1921-2.jpeg--Saibo (Δ) 20:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Why would I want to do that? I wrote what I thought, I can't unthink it so why should I unwrite it? In those DRs you have behaved in a strange way that is unbecoming of an admin. I've put it down to being a brain fart, ie a temporary state that we all have at one time or an other. It's not an attack at all. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 21:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Okay, leave it there - I can take it. Maybe I am not getting the real meaning of this (I am no native English speaker). It just may not look the best for yourself. --Saibo (Δ) 22:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


Would you please either enable "e-mail this user" (on the first tab of "My preferences") or send me one with your e-mail address. I'd like to have a short off-line discussion. Thanks,      Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk to me) 12:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems I'm now emailable. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Bright side

A word aside. On the one hand, I don't think it's a bright side that I will be mixed with someone else in your perception. I also find uncomfortable to see other editors mix reasons and emotions together. On the other hand, I am pleased about any helping control over my edits, if it helps to avoid problems. That is why I tend to discuss at Commons:Форум and at the Talk pages of other editors.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 12:53, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

To be perfectly frank I find it difficult to believe that you are not the same editor who is in trouble at ru.wp, but I don't care. So long as you keep your nose clean here then that is all that matters. As for my "perception", I'm sorry but I'll probably have forgotten you after 30 mins away from the computer. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 12:57, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

RFA blanking

Re your remarks at AN: the RFA has only had the most recent revision blanked, as the notice on it makes clear. It takes a very low level of editor wiki-knowledge to retrieve information from previous revisions via the page history. Rd232 (talk) 01:43, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, so what was the point? I'm sorry, but up until this point I had a lot of respect in you both as an admin and as a mediator. But your actions in this brouhaha have made me rethink that. Your redactions and revdel have been way over the top and you have shown a lot of bad judgement. Quite frankly I'm disappointed in you as an admin of your experience. Unfortunately you've come across as a pawn in Fae's little power struggles. I'll have to reappraise any future interactions I have with yourself. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 06:40, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
The point is, basically, a symbolic attempt to draw a line under a mess. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I'd point out that it is basically one judgement (after research, and with no request from Fae, arising from a review of Romaine's actions, which at first impression I sharply disagreed with), as consistently applied as I could manage. Perhaps, if you had as much respect as you say, you shouldn't abandon that so easily. I don't know what you know of the background, but if you have any questions, feel free to ask (maybe by email). Rd232 (talk) 08:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
I am up to speed with what went on here, at en.wp and at WR as I did a fair amount of research too, though probably not as much as yourself. My resulting opinion was that the extra scrutiny that Fae came under was justified (although the threat, which I'm starting to have doubts about, was not). I feel that openness and full accounting is the way to go rather than censorship and hiding information away, especially when it has already transpired that a journalist is interested. This will not put WMF in a good light I'm afraid. Although some of the accusations were totally unfair and bordered on libellous, the majority weren't unfair and really required answers. I'm not a proponent of censorship, in fact I detest it and in the long run it invariably results in more 'dramah' than it's supposed to prevent. People are naturally curious, if they know something has been censored or covered up they go looking for what's been hidden, but if it's out in the open the usual response is 'meh' let's move on to the next little drama. All in all I think this whole debacle has been mismanaged, and although I don't think Fae should be an admin, I also think he should have had his full RfA instead of being forced to withdraw. Blocking Bali ultimate was the first mistake of many and should never have happened. His block should be lifted now that the RfA is over, after all isn't Bali's involvement in it what was being prevented by the block?
As for how I feel about your goodself, well only time can tell with that one. I'm not one for holding grudges, partly because my memory is so bad I can't remember who pissed me off in the first place! In any case, I don't think this wiki-drama is even close to being finished, so we'll just have to see what happens. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 09:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. I broadly agree; it's certainly a mess, but when principles conflict, difficult choices have to be made. And this whole episode has a whiff of the mob about it. I'm with you on grudges... As for wiki-drama finishing... how did you guess? Rd232 (talk) 15:47, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


In the Spring of 2011 I asked the architect about his permission. His office answered they will take my message into account and possibly will make the permission. From time to time I reminded them several times, and yet received no answer. In the meantime I had to make DRs, for my reasons are finely described by A.Savin — he said, he can believe that German citizen will make DRs because of the law requirements, but he cannot believe that Russian citizen will do this. His explanation is exact and strict: I am Russian citizen and I do this because of the Civil Code requirements. Several days passed after I started first DRs for this church images, and suddenly the note appeared telling me about the architect's good will, and then I explained them how to perform OTRS message. They answered me that they'll send this OTRS message, and after a day or two I got the ticket number. Now I could withdraw those nominations, but I do not know how to do this. How could I act? I edited the DR pages to inform that the trouble is away, and the image is truly free now. That's all Smile.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 18:32, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

That all sounds reasonable. Just put a comment on the DRs that your nomination is withdrawn. The closing admin will see it and do the necessary. Though I can't see why A.Savin can't do it, after all he is a sysop. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 19:36, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems to me he's using the sysop rights for some technical (so called "engineering") needs.--PereslavlFoto (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


As per this, if you, or anyone else for that matter, reinserts the image, I will block for disruption of Commons. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt with this edit that it was an edit conflict, but reinsert it again and you will be blocked. Consider this your one and only warning. No correspondence will be entered into. russavia (talk) 14:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Disruptive my hairy arse. The license is correct and there are no rules from preventing me linking to it. So stop stamping your foot and trying to be macho and threaten me. I don't respond well to threats, from anyone. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
This is the "mellow approach" you spoke of? Nice... Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 14:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Well you don't see any F-bombs do you? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 14:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I meant him, lol! Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 15:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I concur. Your behaviour has been needlessly vituperative - stop. -mattbuck (Talk) 15:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC) the name of Love ## --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:12, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Potassium chloride?

Hallo Fred the Oyster, could you please explain your comment "how the big boys do it": "Potassium chloride"? It is not clear to me what you mean. You may want to add it directly to the discussion at AN. Thanks. --Saibo (Δ) 00:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It means that you'll have to find someone else to explain the joke. Sorry. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 01:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Saibo may not press you for an explanation, but I am. Given that you have been given warnings for incivility and disruption already, and on previous occasions, I am now requesting that you explain the comments. These are comments that you yourself made, so it is not up to someone else to explain them, it is up to you. I believe that editors on Commons should stay COM:MELLOW; staying mellow does not mean that disruptive and incivil editors will be allowed to run rampant; such editors will be blocked, particularly when recent history shows that this is an unfortunate trend. The other option is for you strike the comments, and agree to stop trolling the AN request. russavia (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
My understanding - from the above - is that this was a joke. My understanding - from the above - is that explaining jokes makes them pretty pointless. I'm sure Fred will have his understanding though. --Herby talk thyme 15:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
@Saibo Black humour. @Russavia. Your people skills need some work. You come wading into my talk page making threats of blocks with no lead up to it and you will get the response you got. If you'd come here and talked to me politely like an adult and not a fucking kid you would have got a much better response. And this is the second time you've come here threatening me again. If you want me to do what you want, then you need a fucking sight better chat up line. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


At the risk of everyone telling me to piss off maybe all concerned could just sleep on things for a bit. We all have different lives and see things differently and I have respect for all the people in this thread. --Herby talk thyme 17:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't need sleep thanks, but I do need people to understand that belligerence will be met with belligerence, politeness will be met with politeness. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I have removed this incivil "humour", it was clearly not constructive. If indeed you intend to meet politeness with politeness, I trust that you will stop initiating impoliteness by poking and baiting the subject of AN complaints. --99of9 (talk) 03:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually it was quite funny, once I got it. Cheers Fred!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
How funny it is is orthogonal to its value on the AN board, especially when a joke is directed at the subject of a complaint. --99of9 (talk) 04:05, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I've found the better aimed it is the funnier it is in, at least in my experience anyway. I am deeply disappointed though in how long it's taken some admins to 'get' the joke. Well it's been there a couple of days now so I doubt it will get any more guilty giggles that it's already had so feel safe in the knowledge that I won't revert or replace. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 09:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

A request

Hi Fred the Oyster. I am noting here that I have removed a comment of yours from one of the many threads at the administrators noticeboard. For the health and sanity of all involved, please refrain from making disruptive comments like that in the future. The thread has already turned into enough of a battlefield as it is, and comments such as the one I removed do nothing to move the conversation in a productive direction. I ask that you remember that here at commons, "mellow" is the game we play. Cheers, Tiptoety talk 07:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That comment had been there for a couple of days so I really don't see the point in it's removal, but if you feel the need then so be it. As for "mellow", perhaps you should mention that to our Australian plane spotting colleague. I don't see waving an admin's bit at me in the manner he did to be either civil or "mellow". Usually if I was any more laid back I'd be on my arse, but I respond like with like. Perhaps in the New Year WMF can arrange some man management lectures for some admins.
In the meantime I shall do as you ask, though in all honesty I don't see my comments as being disruptive... sarky yes, funny yes, perceptive yes, disruptive no. I do not intend withdrawing from the thread though. I will add comments as necessary, but I will try to keep them to the point and non-wiseassery. Good enough? --Fred the Oyster (talk) 08:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Incidentally, the comment you removed was aimed at Russavia and not Ottava. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 08:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Yup, works for me. I'm certainly not asking you to stop participating all together but simply asking that you provide more productive comments that will get the thread moving in a direction that might actually yield some kind of end result (one can hope, right?). Cheers, Tiptoety talk 08:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
I was actually going to make a similar request that Fred hold back a bit there with not-really-necessary comments, but RL intervened. Because the thread is on a highly sensitive subject (banning/blocking an established user), more caution than usual is called for in that department. Rd232 (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


Hi, happy new year, etc. I have a query, as you're more familiar with how Commons works than myself. There's a user here on Commons attempting to fix a lot of photos by editing colour, contrast and sharpness.. but in many cases his edits look worse than the predecessor, sometimes ending up grainy and unfaithful. Here's the first which caught my eye: [3] and another example here [4] where the sharpening has caused awful graining. Not all his edits are bad, but in many cases he's changing the contrast or brightness in such a way that some detail is being lost into whiteness, as seen here [5]. I'm going to be reverting the Wellington one back to the sepia version, as he's made the new one look like a bad photocopy than a photo. I'm not sure that he is always getting the balance right, such as here [6] which I just don't know what to make of it.. he needs to slow down as many of these tweaks look bad. Am I wrong? Any thoughts on how to approach this? Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 12:37, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Seems to me that someone got Photoshop for Christmas and hasn't quite yet figured out how to drive it. I also suspect that they have a badly setup and uncalibrated monitor. As for dealing with it, well there's my way and there's the politically correct way :). I've reverted 2 of the above, the iceberg didn't have much damage done and in fact is a slight improvement. I suppose it all depends on his learning curve. If they get better then leave him to it, if they get worse just revert and leave a message on the talk page. If he won't listen, which I don't think will be the case based on what I've seen of his talkpage, just got to COM:ANU and mention it. It isn't like WP:ANI, they have a much more mellow approach here. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 13:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Yes, could be his monitor, or a bad eye for colour balance. Takes time to develop a feel for that kind of thing, I suppose. I uploaded a new one of the Wellington at Waterloo moments after you reverted, actually.. used "color range" to highlight and isolate the blacks which I copied to a new layer so I could slightly denoise/despeckle the other colours, which advertently creates slight blur, but then improved the colour tone via curves and used the top blacks layer to keep it sharp and faithful. Seems to have worked well and much less grainy now. Iceberg one is grainier, but given the 100-year old age of the photo it is a tricky one to work with.. b&w sea, sky and ice.. never easy. I'll wait and see if he remarks on the reverts. He only has to look at my few photo-edit contribs, or you own, to see they're experienced reverts rather than just for the sake of it. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 13:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Would you happen to know how this user (who has been inactive here since Dec 2010, so I can't ask him) created maps like this File:Relief Map of Spain.png? I would like one of this area File:Italy North location map.svg, unfortunately, he hasn't done a one for there. But I'm having difficulty believing that anyone just draws these on Photoshop with that much topographical detail.. and the style isn't like Google Maps terrain, so they're not derived from there. Any ideas? Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 22:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC) Hi, did you see my query here.. not sure if it got lost amongst other posts overnight. Thanks, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 14:34, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I had indeed missed your question. I have to admit that cartography and associated software is not my speciality at all so please take what I say with a pinch of salt. Looking at the information given in the description I'd guess that the image is an output from some sort of GIS software such as Quantum GIS. I've never used any of the software before even though I have Quantum GIS installed here. But to get that level of detail GIS will be involved somewhere, it isn't hand drawn I know that much! --Fred the Oyster (talk) 15:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks.. sorry for delay, I keep forgetting to check Commons for replies when I'm on Wiki. I expected there to be some software involved which base the maps on proper topographical data, just wasn't sure what. Shame he isn't active, I'd love to know. Had a look at GIS, but can't tell if that's what he uses as there are no terrain screenshot examples to compare to.. I may have to check it out and see if it produces them. Got a series of campaign maps on Wiki which are featureless and a bit on the simplistic side, and with colours too gordy for my liking, all could do with renewing, if I can get the right relief map as a base to use. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 17:00, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
I've had a go of QGis, which is bloody huge program, especially once you download the Tiff maps. Problem I'm having is, I'm following the info at Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Resources/QGis lesson 1: Create a topographic background but can only seen to add "entire world" raster maps, which are pixelated close up. I was hoping for a European vector map which produces the same fine details as SVG ones I've seen, and same mapcolour. I may have to ask around, on Wiki, but before I do, do you know where the vector versions might be from? I tried all the links under #Topography/bathymetry, ETOPO1 was the closest match but pixely, but as this is completely new to me, am a little lost. You said it's not your speciality, so if I need to ask elsewhere, just say.. don't want to waste your time on it making guesses. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 16:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry mate I don't have a clue. I've not progressed much beyond knowing that some maps need raster and vector, whilst some need just vector data. Having said that though, I vaguely remember some place in Hawaii offering datasets for GIS. Other than that though I'm buggered if I know. I don't really have a clue how to drive QGIS. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Alright, no worries. I'll ask about.. maybe someone with GIS skills will be so good as to produce one for me, to save time. Cheers, Ma®©usBritish [Chat] 17:38, 6 January 2012 (UTC)