User talk:Magog the Ogre/Archive 5

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Ogrebot / template:circa

Hi, noticed that Ogrebot uses commons template:circa to change a c. into ca. , but on en:wp, the template:circa changes circa into c. per the MOS there; can you please investigate this conflict and action or comment as required? MTIA, PeterWD (talk) 11:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The bot's change simply is internationalizing the date. IMO, the correct course of action is to change Template:Circa, which I've just done. If it get reverted, you might considering taking it to the talk page. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:56, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

User:OgreBot 2

Congratulations! It has bot status now. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 14:51, 8 June 2012 (UTC)


Someone told me you can transfer this image to Commons! Can you help me? It is funny how some Sysops don't know how to do it! I have asked for help from several people but none did help me! If you can't help me then do you know someone who can help me? Thanks!Trongphu (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

You're kidding! The best way to transfer an image is with tools:~magnus/commonshelper.php. FYI, I'm pretty sure the licensing on that image is wrong, and I'm not sure if it's free in the US as well as Canada (which it must be in order to keep it). So if you transfer it, it might get nominated for deletion soon anyway. Face-sad.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:14, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I have my own reason for "not" do it myself! I wouldn't asking for help if I could do it by myself. I don't want to explain in details why but I had a really bad experiences with this thing. I want nothing to involve into copyrighted issues and some complicated craps to me. But they are not very complicated to you, are they? Anyway how come the licensing is wrong? So what is the correct license? Do you know how to fix it? OK let keep it brief! Do you know anyone that is capable of either transfer that image to Commons or sort things out? I have been waiting for the satisfied answer for few days and I'm losing patient! (Not try to be rude but I'm not a very patient guy. And no need to teach me how to be patient!) Trongphu (talk) 02:55, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
It would be nice if you didn't crosspost everywhere. (I wanted to let Magog know about the cross-post as well which is why I'm posting here.) [1] [2] [3] [4] Killiondude (talk) 07:21, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Anonymous comment

► Please correct highlight !

— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk • contribs) 03:59, 10 June 2012‎ (UTC)
What? Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:59, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
User:OgreBot merged two different images based on a request by User:Wdwd. The Commons one has the rightmost bit highlighted whereas the Wikipedia one has the leftmost bit highlighted. Looks like an error --Stefan4 (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

--> Correct the error if you can! The leftmost bit 1 in position 0 must be highlighted!

(like here

— Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk • contribs) 16:10, 11 June 2012‎ (UTC)
Done... I think? Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

original uploader|$1LENCE D00600D

Your bot was probably irritated by that "$1" in the uploader's name: [5]. -- Common Good (talk) 18:35, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Ugh; I knew that this was going to come and I had to fix it soon. But I've been putting it off; thanks. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Six months


Just noticed that User:OgreBot/Watercraft is running for six months already! Thanks for setting it up. I still use it regularly. --  Docu  at 05:14, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm accepting donations. Not because I'm working on this, but because I just am always accepting handouts. Face-tongue.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:46, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Heth works

Re "Heth": Please delete this message once you have read it! In relation to the "deletion" matter, the individual concerned is elderly and greatly intimidated by even the mention of "legal", "copyright", etc.; and so, most unfortunately, I have been unable to coherently address the matter of permission, without being told with great emphasis, effectively, that the matter will not be discussed (viz., rather than the request being rejected). Once again, please remove this message from your page once you have read it (because other readers may misunderstand what I am communicating to you). I suppose that there is now no need to delay your acting in the way that you said that you needed to. Best to you.Lindsay658 (talk) 01:34, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

What a shame! If the person is elderly, perhaps some day when s/he passes away (hopefully not soon), his or her heirs would be willing to make such a release. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:05, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Bot errors

Check here and here. In the first case, the bot messed up a licence tag. In the second case, a file had an incorrect {{Information}} template with double "source" fields and some other double fields. Your bot removed fields so that there is now only one of each, but in the process, some information was lost. --Stefan4 (talk) 17:51, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I am actually aware of both those problems. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Very well

If I have to address this the hard way I will. If you genuinely question the simplicity and ineligibility of copyright for such files as File:SterVCP.gif, File:Accessible Media Inc.png, File:Van Film Studio.png, File:Diesel logo.svg, File:Pt logo.PNG, and perhaps my most favourite File:2division.png, do a DR of them, now, and see what happens. They'll all be kept and in the case of the last one probably even receive some laughs.

Btw, File:ALDO Groupe logo.png and File:CTV Newsnet.svg were recently DRd and kept, so you might want to remove them from your list. Fry1989 eh? 06:23, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

What the fuck is your problem? Are you really so dull that you have to see everything as a contest of wills? Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:34, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
My problem is that you have combined in a list many files which indeed may be copyrighted, such as File:Guitar Hero Mobile logo.jpg, with ones which are obviously too simple, such as File:Associació Guiatge Valenciá.svg. If you wanna make a list of files you think are suspicious that's fine (though personally I don't see why you don't just do a DR of everything you question rather than make lists and let them sit around), but you listing incredibly simple files, yes I find that objectionable. Moreover, you don't remove ones that are kept, so those who come by can see this and unknowingly renominate something. Lastly, past interactions between us have left a bitter taste in my mouth. So I ask you as I did above, if you think the ones I listed as examples are copyrighted, do a DR of them, and see what people think. This isn't about contests, this is about common(s) sense. Fry1989 eh? 06:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
The reason I included many is because the threshold of originality is low to non-existent in some of those countries - so even the simplest of logos may be copyrighted. Indeed, we have deleted some very simple logos for that reason. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:40, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
And this is in my userspace, not the project space or anything else. I have no obligation to list anything for deletion; in fact, some might be kept if I nominated, and I'm OK with listing them anyway in that page - which is why it is called possibly non-free. Did any of this occur to you before you decided to edit war in my userspace, then leave me a nasty note on my talk page? Or, did you just assume that it's your way or no way at all, as is usual for you despite countless admonitions against such thought processes? Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
That may be, but not every country can be given a TOO entry, and not all countries are as restrictive as the UK, nor does Common Law in one country translate to equal or similar TOO in another country with Common Law. Examples such as File:2division.png don't really add to the credibility of your concerns either, cause if that was copyrightable we'd have to probably consider similar things like File:RAF roundel.svg as copyrightable. I have a well-known distaste for copyright in general, but I understand the need to enforce it on Commons and try to abide by it, and I felt the need to remove certain images which are incredibly simple from your list. Now if you wanna bring up attitude here, you're the one who has made assumptions of my state of mind, and put out a personal attack. I don't care whether it's your personal space, I've had mine edited and I've lived, and if I was too lazy to clean it up when decisions were made such as DR keeps, and another user cleaned it up for me, I certainly wouldn't be attacking them. Sure I coudl have come to your talk page and discussed the ones I think are too simple, but you've never shown any manners or courtesy to me, and that's why I don't reciprocate, so too bad if it miffs you, because you miff me. Fry1989 eh? 06:58, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
There are so many things wrong with the above statement that I am not even going to bother correcting you. Given that you've shown yourself to be incompetent and intransigent already, I see no need to try. Instead how about this: stay out of my userspace; I have adult reasons for keeping my list, and only adults (and people who choose to think on the level of adults) will understand such reasons. If another adult decides to ask me why they're there, I'll be glad to given that person the information. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:07, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I'm the one that's incompetent? Not the idiot (since you wanna trade insults like a child) who couldn't even check the file usage of File:Télétoon+.png to realize that channel's from FRANCE not Canada, yeah, that person is so much more competent and intelligient. Don't even try and pick yourself up liek you're so much better than me, you're ignorant, lazy, don't have due diligence, and I have no obligation to be nice to a prick like you. I'm not wasting any more of my time with someone who has such a level of misplaced self-importance. Fry1989 eh? 07:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Frankly, you're the one who started it by refusing to listen to logic and by going on the attack. Don't play in the kitchen if you're afraid to get burnt by the stove. Magog the Ogre (talk) 07:18, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Indifference is worse than hate, but right now I don't know which I hold more of for you. But if you think I feel "burnt" in any way by such a fool that he can't even be bothered to double-check a file's usage to see it's actually from a country half-way across the world from the one you DR'd it for, you are sadly mistaken. Good bye (hopefully forever). Fry1989 eh? 07:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Please do not overwrite files

I just renamed my own file to its original name. Norum (talk) 06:43, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

But if one already exists on Commons under that name, you'll need to choose a new one so that the one already on Commons doesn't get clobbered. You can then mark the one on Wikipedia with this code: {{subst:ncd|new_image_name.ext}}, and administrators will handle the rest. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:50, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

date format

When I upload a file, the suggested date format is shown as: yyyy-mm-dd so this is the way I enter the date. Then a day later, your bot comes by, to change it to American standard yyyy/mm/dd. But why? This is a non value added action, creating a lot of nonsense history, just because your date format is standard in a small part of the world. If you believe that the default format should be with slashes, you better try to change the standard, instead of just changing it without even asking. Edoderoo (talk) 17:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? What's the link? Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm 100% sure that I'll never use slashes, as it is a British and maybe American thing, the international standard is with dashes, and that is what I use. I'll look up a link for you. Edoderoo (talk) 11:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Please do, because I'm 100% sure my bot would never reformat a date to have slashes. Face-smile.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:20, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
You are right, for some reason some of my uploads end up with slashes, but I can't figure out when. Most uploads have the dashes, and sometimes it ends up with slashes. Well, then your bot is indeed improving those files to my point of view, so it's OK with me. Edoderoo (talk) 10:16, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

User at project -> Commons

Hello. First, thank you for developing such useful tools, it is deeply appreciated. I simply wanted to point out that the "User at project" template does not seem to work for Commons user. When I enter {{User at project|Example|commons|en}} I get "Example at English Wikimedia Commons" (note the red link for the user even if s/he exists). If I am doing something wrong, can you please point it out, so that I can edit the documentation at Template:User_at_project? If that is a bug, then you may perhaps have time/will to look at it. In any case, thank you. Ariadacapo (talk) 07:17, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi. I'm taking a look at it, but I'm running into a parser problem which might be a bug in the Wikimedia software itself; see w:WP:VPT#Error in parser function. Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:22, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but due to a bug in the Mediawiki software, this is just too difficult for me at this time. Please consider making your own template just for the @Wikimedia Commons case (this template was designed for local projects). Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:47, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Don’t worry about it! Thank you very much for having given a look. The template is terrific already. Ariadacapo (talk) 11:51, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

OgreBot and changing date formatting

I've noticed OgreBot 2 has been editing a lot of my recent file uploads. In every case, it's done exactly one thing - change the date format from 16 June 2012 to 2012-06-16. It doesn't bother me, as it displays exactly the same. I'm just curious - why is the the bot programmed to do this? Is the second format more machine-readable? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 05:26, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The second format is recognized by the {{Information}} template via {{ISOdate}} and properly parsed into the reader's native language. You'll notice if you read a rendering of the page that it still says 16 June 2012 - just not in the wikitext. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:32, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the explanation! Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

It actually does change the appearance for my files. Is it generally agreed to use the European styling for dates on all files? Because the bot changed the date on one of my uploads (of an American subject, categorized appropriately) and replaced the my American month dd, yyyy format with the European dd-mm-yyyy format. Surely if you'd replaced the spelling with mm-dd-yyyy, it would be just as machine readable? --Philosopher Let us reason together. 05:17, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Edited at 05:18 by Philosopher.

Well there are a few thoughts I have on that problem. I'll go over them one by one:
  • Having the order displayed backwards for American readers is a small price to pay given that we are now making the date legible for readers of any language (the template is internationalized).
  • Perhaps there is a way to make {{ISOdate}} display items in American format for users who have selected that in Special:Preferences. You could bring it up there.
  • Perhaps we could specify a parameter on this template or on {{Date}} that would make it display M d, Y for English-speaking readers, much like they do on English Wikipedia.
  • The last possibility, and one I'm not fond of, is for me to implement a blacklist and OgreBot doesn't make edits on uploads by users who opt-in. The reason I don't like this possibility is not because I'm too lazy to code it (in fact, it should be trivial), rather the benefits of the changes made by the bot are now lost. In this case, we lose the internationalization, but it can go both ways - for an uploader who specified "1999 באוקטובר", I have little doubt you'd know that this is Hebrew for "October" until the bot internationalized it. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:00, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Some opinions:

  • Using m/d/yyyy is bad since you often won't know if the uploader used American format (m/d/yyyy) or British format (d/m/yyyy). Is 1/2/2012 supposed to mean 1 February or 2 January?
  • 20/6/2012 may be legible for English speakers but may be illegible for other speakers. yyyy-mm-dd is automatically internationalised. {{date|2012|4=th}} becomes where the number changes due to a different calendar system in Thailand. It probably simplifies things a lot Thai users if the software automatically adds 543 to the year number: the Thai users can then put away their calculators and concentrate on reading the text on the file information pages. --Stefan4 (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

File:JR-West 500.jpg

Hi! I hadn't checked license information of the picture before transferring it from to commons. My mistake... :/ --Jjajjo (talk) 18:55, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Symbol keep vote.svg Keep See ja:ファイル:500.JPG. I've cleaned it up a bit. For example, the licence is GFDL with a link to Japanese Wikipedia's general disclaimer. You listed it without any disclaimer at all. --Stefan4 (talk) 20:13, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Template:User at project

Hi Magog the Ogre. As mentioned elsewhere, I really appreciate your cleanup efforts. However, I really dislike the above mentioned template. It changes the attribution chosen by the uploader/author and therefore IMO even violates the condition You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor. If your bot or your scripts will continue to insert this template (incl. in transfers already checked/cleaned up by me or another admin like this) I might consider nominating it for deletion. --Leyo 22:05, 26 June 2012 (UTC) PS. I hope you won't take it personally.

Yes I took your advice into play and I am in the process of rewriting it so that the author field in the information template only states the way the uploader originally wrote it, unless it was left blank. I am happy to make changes to my script if it's doing something wrong and I'm told of it (in lieu of, say, being angrily being told that I am or the bot is a failure - i.e., don't throw out the baby with the bathwater).
However, on the {{self}} template, I am only internationalizing the longstanding convention used by the bots, which is that it's inappropriate to say "I, the author" if the author didn't make the local upload.
If there are bugs in the de translation (which there are), it seems we should just fix those. However, I haven't yet received a satisfactory answer for each and every case for how to convert the parameter translated by {{lang}} into a readable Language Wikipedia. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
In terms of license template, IMO the best way is e.g. {{self|author=[[:de:User:XYZ|XYZ]]|GFDL|cc-by-sa-3.0|cc-by-sa-3.0-de|migration=redundant}}. You are right that it's problematic if the author is not mentioned in the template itself.
What about modifying the template in the way that it only states the author's name, not the project? However, when hovering the mouse over it, it would say “User:XYZ at English Wikipedia” instead of “en:User:XYZ”. --Leyo 17:31, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Singapore medals

This concerns your tagging of "File:Pingat Penghargaan (Tentera) medal (from 1996, reverse).png" and "File:Pingat Bakti Masyarakat medal (1973–1996).png" with {{no permission since}}. It appears from the file description pages of the original files uploaded at the English Wikipedia, "en:File:Pingat Penghargaan (Tentera) medal reverse.png" and "en:File:Pingat Bakti Masyarakat (1973-1996) medal.png" (both now deleted) that the original uploader, PalawanOz, had permission from Megan Robertson, the owner of Medals of the World, to upload the images to the English Wikipedia under CC-BY-SA-2.5. Unfortunately, it does not appear that OTRS verification was obtained, so I don't know if the statements by PalawanOz are sufficient. — SMUconlaw (talk) 00:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

That's precisely the problem; we don't have OTRS confirmation. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Duplicated headers

You might want to add them to the bot's cleanup program (sample at File:Catarina IMG 8385.JPG). --  Docu  at 12:52, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

That should be trivial; yes, I'll implement it. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. --  Docu  at 12:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)


Just received notice of deletion-request... Counter-requesting that you please hold-yer-horses, brother(sister?)... Here's the deal: the photo is mine, i snapped the picture of that wall. In terms of using it on wikipedia, maybe i made a mistake in the upload-accreditation (it was my first) BUT... After having already written the WP article and going LIVE with it, i then also made a point of adding a photo, and was able to dig one out of my archive... but prior to uploading that photo i was also in contact with the "Rene" of the article and told him i'd written the WP about the murals (and about HIM too, which is in-the-works) and asked if he'd mind my usage of VARIOUS photos i'd taken of him and his murals. Meaning: the photo now appearing on the I AM THE BEST ARTIST Rene page was uploaded with the KNOWLEDGE & PERMISSION OF THE ARTIST HIMSELF, as will upcoming photos which i will soon commence uploading as soon as i can wrap up the work-in-progress WP of Rene himself. Meaning: tell me what's needed to have you nix your delete-proposal and i'll be happy to supply you with it. By the way... surely there must be clauses, anyway, in the rules you noted, possibly pertaining to graffiti on public walls, etc... of an impermanent nature, etc...? I happen to know that Rene has, in the past, taken legal action in response to usage of his famous declaration, BUT, as used in this case, the WP article itself, if anything, acts to illustrate & CONFIRM that the declaration IS, in fact, credit-able to Rene, and is clearly noted as such. Is the "Kilroy is Dead" graffiti copyright-able? (i'll check that now TOO!) ...anyway, sorry, but i've taken so much flak about that whole article but i'll STILL fight for it-&-its-contents to the end! Tell me what you need, Ogre.Penwatchdog (talk) 17:46, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

See Template:No permission since for the procedure in forwarding us the email of the permission the artist gave. Does that answer your question? Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

OK Ogre i'll get on it BUT... can you please gimme a week or so leeway to deal with it? i'm in the beginnings of a home-move and will be unable to get to that for at least a week. appreciate your consideration in this matter. Penwatchdog (talk) 03:50, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

You can place the tag {{OTRS pending}} on the file once you have begun the process, and an administrator will often times let the deletion wait a bit. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:25, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

hi Ogre i'm back & reacquainting myself with the situation but i have no idea how to proceed to keep that photo from being deleted. i'm an idiot about all these wiki-procedures except for writing the articles, on top of that i've got my plate full with other more pressing matters, so please walk me thru it step by step and let's see what we can do... if the photo gets deleted so be it, i'll have the artist upload a photo of his own at a later date if it comes to that.Penwatchdog (talk) 04:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

No problem. Just have the artist copy and paste the following email and send to (once it's been sent, let me know: I have access to the inbox and I can work the ticket quickly):
I hereby affirm that I, Rene Moncada [if she wants to be identified in another way, remove "Rene Moncada" here and insert how she wants to be identified] am the creator and/or sole owner of the exclusive copyright of the ORIGINAL work for any images which Commons user "Penwatchdog" shall upload of my murals.

I agree to the publication of those works under the free license "Creative Commons Attribution 3.0".

I acknowledge that by doing so I grant anyone the right to use the work in a commercial product or otherwise, and to modify it according to their needs, provided that they abide by the terms of the license and any other applicable laws.

I am aware that this agreement is not limited to Wikipedia or related sites.

I am aware that I always retain copyright of my work, and retain the right to be attributed in accordance with the license chosen. Modifications others make to the work will not be claimed to have been made by me.

I am aware that the free license only concerns copyright, and I reserve the option to take action against anyone who uses this work in a libelous way, or in violation of personality rights, trademark restrictions, etc.

I acknowledge that I cannot withdraw this agreement, and that the work may or may not be kept permanently on a Wikimedia project.

[SENDER'S NAME AND DETAILS (to allow future verification of authenticity)]
[SENDER'S AUTHORITY (Are you the copyright-holder, director, appointed representative of, etc.)]

Magog the Ogre (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

tr transwiki

As you seem to be cleaning up transwiki imports as well, you might want to looking into File:Asaritevfik.jpg. It seems that tr:Template:Bilgi wasn't or isn't being recognized. The currently inactive Khutuck Bot (talk · contribs) also uploaded a few. --  Docu  at 12:01, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes this has happened with multiple information templates coming from other languages. Try mentioning it to User:MGA73, who seems to have a relationship with the bot owner that I do not (the bot owner responds to his requests but not mine, apparently). Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:49, 3 July 2012 (UTC)



I don't understand which permission you want about this file. For me, it has been uploaded by the creator and made from US gouvernment sources. Moreoever, it is very simple, and I doubt it would get a copyright at all. Regards, Yann (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think the creator uploaded it? Magog the Ogre (talk) 12:15, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, not uploaded, but agreed to the license ([6])> Regards, Yann (talk) 14:30, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Well it's not airtight OTRS permission but it's about as good as an OTRS ticket coming from an anonymous Gmail account. It seems likely this was done by Mr. Kenworth. If it wasn't and he is upset, he can send hate mail to OTRS and it'll get deleted. I've removed the npd. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:09, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Heads up!

I have read page notices above but I do not use tb template. So writing manually, I have replied to your post in my talk page! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 16:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I have replied in my talk page! --Tito Dutta (Send me a message) 17:16, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

OgreBot and CommonsHelper

Hey Magog!

I just noticed that OgreBot edited File:Pier Dancing Pavilion, Revere Beach, MA.jpg which I transferred from Commons a few days. Unfortunately, it managed to delete the source and date information, as well as part of the author information, while moving the transfer information to a different section. (diff). Is this supposed to happen? Pi.1415926535 (talk) 21:00, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, actually it is, because (as you may have noticed), none of that information is correct. Hugh Manatee was not the author, he was just the person who uploaded it (his name is already present under the original upload log). Similarly, the date of the work is not the original upload date, and the original source has nothing to do with a transfer from Commons. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha. Thanks again. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:23, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


I noticed User:OgreBot/Watercraft/2012 July 1-10 and was wondering if you could do something similar for new uploads in subcats of Category:Rail transport in the United Kingdom. -mattbuck (Talk) 13:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes; actually you can set it up yourself. See the format at User:OgreBot/gallery. If that's too complicated, just tell me what page you want it set up on and I can do it for you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I see. You might want to add a clearer instruction page or something, when I saw that page I just saw a whole lot of blue and it scared me. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
If you edit the page, you'll see the instructions in the comments. Face-smile.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I found that after a while, but it's not obvious. When a link takes me to a config page, I tend to expect there to be some sort of documentation available. Anyway, thanks. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Noted; thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I've done it right. I want any UK rail transport image to be noted at User:Mattbuck/Railways. That or I'm just impatient. When does the bot do its updatey stuff? -mattbuck (Talk) 23:22, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I've created the page; there's a bug in the peachy code that confuses the "create this page if it doesn't exist" flag. Hopefully it will work now. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
OK, thanks. -mattbuck (Talk) 23:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Ooh, excellent. Thanks! -mattbuck (Talk) 00:24, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, would it be possible to reduce the thumbnail sizes from 300px to 150px for future bot generated pages at Commons:WikiProject Aviation/recent uploads? I am having big problems with page upload times and my browser locking up, it improved when I manually edited the existing pages after advice from the aviation project. Cheers (great feature BTW) Nimbus227 (talk) 10:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I should be able to get that in the next day or so. I'll add a parameter to the properties page. Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:56, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Marvellous, thanks. Nimbus227 (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Istiklâl Marsi instrumetal.ogg

{{PD-Ottoman}} cannot be applied to this file. Takabeg (talk) 06:38, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Why? Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:39, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Composer Osman Zeki Üngör died in 1958. This became PD with this special article. Takabeg (talk) 06:45, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Why wasn't it PD due to the fact it was published before 1923? Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:46, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know but the Turkish government maybe not accept/maybe don't know the concept of {{PD-Ottoman}} :) Takabeg (talk) 06:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Could you edit the file in question then to have the correct reason that it is free in Turkey? Thanks. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:50, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

“”== James Monroe cabinet - picture license ==

Hi, I uploaded new picture with name "James Monroe Cabinet" on 12 July and you marked it as insufficient licencing picture. Please remove your warning about possible deletion of my picture because this picture I found on internet as free and I also gave link of website where this picture can be found on internet ( I am not very experienced in licencing matters but I know that pictures with similar origin are dozens in wikipedia. Rather than just delete my picture help me to resolve this problem please. Thank you for your help in advance.Lucullus19

This is a case of mistaken identity. It was actually Nikbot that marked your photo as unlicensed, and only because it didn't have the licensing tag. However, it now has the tag, so it looks like everything is OK. Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. But it seems that when I click on this picture and thus open it (for example in the article about James Monroe), a warning about possible deletion appears again. What is going on ? What problem occurs again ? Lucullus19

Try w:Wikipedia:Bypass your cache. Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not very good in English and furthermore not very skillful in PC matters. When you made your changes and improvements of my picture, at first it showed me that everything was OK, no warning appeared. But later a warning about deletion appeared. And when I came to work on another PC which had no connection with my PC and opened this picture, also a warning appeared. Are you sure that the only problem is w:Wikipedia:Bypass your cache ? I am afraid that in 7 days my picture will disappear according to the warning. Lucullus19

There is still a warning on your talk page, but not on the image page itself. You can ignore or even remove the warnings on your talk page, because they have no bearing on if the images will be deleted. Which page are you seeing the warning on? Magog the Ogre (talk) 16:39, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

In article about James Monroe, for example when I click to enlarge the picture "Monroe as he appears in the National Portrait Gallery in Washington D.C." and thus open it, no warning sign appears, as you can see But when in the same article about James Monroe I click to enlarge and open the picture which I added "James Monroe Cabinet", icon about no licence (Icon no license.svg) appears in red-framed area along with following text "This media file does not have sufficient information on its copyright status. Unless the copyright status is provided, the file will be deleted seven days after this template was added: (12 July 2012)...etc..." Lucullus19

OK, let's try this instead: log into your account on English Wikipedia, then click on this link, and tell me if you're still seeing it. I don't think you will be. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:59, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, when I did as you had advised me everything was OK, no warning sign appeared! But formerly also sometimes it was OK and I saw no warning, and then it went again wrong. I will see on 20 July what will happen with picture and if picture disappears from articles "James Monroe" and "1775-1795 in fashion", I will contact you. For now I thank you very much. Lucullus19

File:Macchi M.70 line drawings.JPG

Any suggestions on how to deal with this file? The current template suggest to add another license like {{PD-UK-unknown}} but that does not seem to help here? So should I just delete it? And if yes how do we tag the file on en-wiki? --MGA73 (talk) 21:01, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

My computer monitor is... having issues, to put it mildly, so I can't really look into it now. But when I originally looked into it, I couldn't find this image at the source. Maybe I just didn't look hard enough. But even if it is {{PD-UK-unknown}}, it is still {{Not-PD-US-URAA}} unless a) it was published in the US within 30 days of publication in the UK, or b) it carries an expired crown copyright. So my first reaction is that it's probably copyrighted in the US if not the UK. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay... I deleted the file and send it back to enwiki so it could be checked further... Thank you. --MGA73 (talk) 08:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Hm... The image IS visible on but at first I could not see it. It was published in Flight (see front page here / I do not know how to find out if that magazine was also for sale in the US. --MGA73 (talk) 17:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
It is this magazine, and everything I'm reading in it tells me it probably wasn't. We'll need proof otherwise. Also, as I've stated, my monitor is no good so I can't check for authorship information. Magog the Ogre (talk) 18:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)


Why did you delete an old photo? It was taken in 1929 by unknown photographer (perhabs one of Tihanyi's colleague)!!! The author of the photo is unknown. It was founded in the photo albums memoires of his girl Katalin Tihanyi. His father worked in the Air ministry lab between 1929-1931. The photographer is unknown, therefore you must restore the photo, which you deleted under unfounded supererogation

According to this logic: all old WW2 photos must be deleted, because the photographer is not known.-- 06:59, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

It was deleted because it was sourced to "Tihanyi's colleague" and given a license of {{GFDL}} without any proof or explanation to the effect that Tihanyi's colleague (or Tahanyi's colleague's heirs) agreed to the GFDL license. Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Wikisource newlogo 2.png

No source on the Wikipedia side either - Speedy Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

[7] Magog the Ogre (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
This page en:User:VampWillow/Images says "Images by Vamp Willow on wikipedia include:". We could asume that it means that Vamp Willow created the file. --MGA73 (talk) 18:03, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
Good catch. Magog the Ogre (talk) 18:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

File: D.J. Shockley photo.jpg

Hi Magog, You recently helped me out with a Tommie Frazier photo image. I am now trying to add the last image I probably ever will. I just need for someone from OTRS to go in and check the emails I received and forwarded to them at on my "File: D.J. Shockley photo.jpg" project - and complete this task. I received the permissions form from the copyright holder photographer Joe Robbins of the Shockley photo on July 18 a few days ago. He was so kind to me, and told me to ask him for any more help that I needed. I was hoping you could assist me with this. I'd be so grateful if you'd help me with this. I promise I'll leave you alone after this. Rod Hayes (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Magog the Ogre. OTRS took care of that photograph for me - and I am pretty sure you had a hand in it. Thanks! I really appreciate you help. God bless you. Rod Hayes (talk) 16:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I had absolutely nothing to do with it, but you're welcome anyway (ha) and I'm glad to help. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 20:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Hong Kong Airways Logo.jpg

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Hong Kong Airways Logo.jpg - you left a note on the file talk page, so I thought you'd like to be notified of this deletion discussion. Thanks, cmadler (talk) 19:28, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 23:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Bot problem?

Hi. On a bunch of imaqges I transferred yesterday, in the course of cleaning up the bot removed necessary information, such as author's names. Could you take a look? Thanks. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:32, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Can you please show me where this occurred? I am aware that on several pages there was a mistake wherein it was removing the original uploader (something which isn't as bad as it seems seeing as community consensus almost had that it should be removed in cases like this where it was ambiguous). Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 01:39, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Sure, here are the ones I rolledback:
  • 21:35, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+377)‎ . . m File:SkanGothicRH800.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:34, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+377)‎ . . m File:Dezeng.786.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:34, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+406)‎ . . m File:SkanCCacrossLake680.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:34, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+457)‎ . . m File:The Judge Ben Wiles (TJG).jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by MGA73bot2) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:33, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+614)‎ . . m File:SkanCCsmaller.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:33, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+377)‎ . . m File:VillasSkan800.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:33, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+378)‎ . . m File:Skaneateles cows.west side.800R.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:31, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+402)‎ . . m 800.jpg ‎ (Reverted edits by OgreBot 2 (talk) to last revision by Beyond My Ken) (top) [rollback]
  • 21:30, 3 August 2012 (diff | hist) . . (+120)‎ . . File:LakeSkanfromW700.jpg ‎ (Undo revision 75330137 by OgreBot 2 (talk)) (top) [rollback]

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:43, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Crossed out a few that weren't acually problems. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:51, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Incidentally, regarding File:SkanConcert2.jpg‎ which you tagged as no permission, I adjusted its license on en:wiki to a publicity one, so you might as well go ahead and delete it here. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes those were all ones where Paul whatshisface didn't identify himself as author in the author field of the information template, so the bot was unable to determine the real author. Anyway, the author was in the description field. So this was a temporary error but actually not as bad as it seems. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 02:34, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
OK, thanks a lot for taking a look. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:03, 4 August 2012 (UTC)


This file has a secondary source. What's the problem? These pictures are very old and not always is available the source, the author is never specified. Thus, it is impossible to know the name of the author. raul (talk) 12:26, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

And then, the author and source are not strictly necessary. If I know them, I point them, but if I don't know, I don't point them. The important thing is the date of the image to be prior to 1976 according to the template PD-Italy. raul (talk) 12:32, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Two things: first off, it wasn't sourced on English Wikipedia, and I made a mistake and assumed it wasn't sourced on Commons either; my fault. Second off, it also must have been published (not created) before 1978 or before 1989 without copyright notice to be public domain in the US - I think, but even that might be too lenient due to copyright relations between the US and Italy (the text of which I don't have access to). Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 14:18, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


I don't think this is a useful template for Commons. Why do you think it's needed? --TMg 01:12, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I've responded on de.wp. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 02:00, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Can we delete the unused template for now? --TMg 20:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Why? Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 21:10, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Feltöltött képek

Szia! Sajnos a vitalapomon hagyott üzeneteid nem helytállóak. Te törölted ki a forrásokat. Így nem egészen értem a problémádat. Üdv. Tambo (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't speak Hungarian, and even after using Google Translate I don't know why you're messaging me. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 21:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Maybe you could ask User:Grin who speaks Hungarian/Magyar. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 21:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Bug report

Empty user --Leyo 23:23, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 02:19, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually I already fixed that one. Face-wink.svg Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 02:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Information for File:Surgery and morse function.png

I dont understand the problem : the file (uploaded from WP: en) is attributed to his author (Wolfgang Steimle, who made it for WP :en under the usual CC-etc. license) ; it is a math drawing with no copyright value. All the relevant information is on the Commons page, so what is wrong? --Dfeldmann (talk) 14:46, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Is Wolfgang Steimle the same person as en:User:Ranicki? If not, we'd like to have some sort of written permission verification from Mr. Steimle that he is OK with that license. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 14:48, 14 August 2012 (UTC)


You have some. Sven Manguard Wha? 20:24, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

File:Old Time Swimming Photograph.jpg

For your information, I've opened a formal Deletion discussion for this image, you'll find it here. Thanks, Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:24, 23 August 2012 (UTC)



I would say, the authorship is incorrect ( should be cited), and the agreement only implies GFDL licence and not GDFL/CC-BY-SA 3.0, although I'm not sure if both sets are compatible.

The following files are cited in the OTRS ticket: File:Bishapur relief 4 1.jpg, File:Bishapur relief 2 1.jpg, File:Bishapur relief 5 2.jpg, File:Kangavar2.jpg and File:Bishapur temple anahita 3.jpg. I am not sure where the discussion about their deletion is.

Elfix (talk) 08:02, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

That's what the English Wikipedia page said: it said {{CopyrightedFreeUseProvidedThat|the name cited as source}}. But can you confirm that this file is not listed? If it's not, would you mind marking it as {{copyvio}} with a link to that ticket? Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 18:10, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
✓ Done Elfix (talk) 08:33, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Gordon Humphrey.JPG

Your bot has made a mistake here. Please fix. Thank you. --GeorgHHtalk   13:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I see no error in that change. The original upload date and uploader are both irrelevant because it was created prior to upload on Wikipedia; similarly, the original source is not "transferred from Wikipedia." Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 01:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library

hi Your bot User:OgreBot/Watercraft/2012 August 21-31 is attaching to my image uploads and I'm a new enough user to not know why. Can you explain? My images are neither aviation nor watercraft.

Also, I'm interested in working with someone on setting up batch-uploads and a wikimedia:commons project for our federal museum and library site (we're part of NARA)... I'm uploading images one by one and it is very booorrriinggggg. Any interest? thanks Bdcousineau (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

To answer your first question, it's a false positive because Gerald Ford was a navy officer, and Category:Sailors is listed under Category:Sailing, which is itself part of the watercraft category. The bot is not smart enough to differentiate one subcategory of Category:Watercraft from another. Anyway, I've fixed the problem so it shouldn't appear anymore: [8].
As for your second question, I'm not familiar enough with this, but there are many people on here who would be thrilled to help out. Could I ask that you pose your question again at the help desk? Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 02:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

actually if it's not too much bother, please un-fix the bot - I'm happy to have pictures of Gerald Ford attached anywhere and anyhow! Thank you for the explanation, I was just curious.. And thank you I will put my need out there to the help desk ... and see what happens Bdcousineau (talk) 13:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

what to do with image with no license?


This image has no license: File:Billy-milligan-not-guilty-by-reason-of-insanity-1977.jpg. How does the Commons handle this?


MathewTownsend (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I tagged it for speedy deletion; bots will normally tag it with {{subst:nld}}, but in this case the uploader manipulated the template. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 19:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Here's another that misrepresents source

File:Herschel Walker at Fort Gordon 2010-05-14.JPG

The source goes to a site with a shopping cart that sells images. No sign that it's PD.

MathewTownsend (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Two things:
  • The image is in the public domain according to that website. It clearly states "(U.S. Army photo by John Vannucci/Released)" - and all works done by US federal officials (including members of the armed forces), while performing their official duty, are in the public domain.
  • I don't have any problem answering any questions you have about specific images (in fact, I enjoy it), but I thought I'd give you a run down of the processes anyway just in case you're curious. There are a few different processes when it comes to deleting problem images. You can access all of them by going to the page of the image in question, clicking on the "toolbox" dropdown on the left side of the screen (if necessary), then choosing the proper option. The processes are:
  • Tagging an image as unlicensed - if it doesn't have a license on it at all.
  • Tagging an image as unsourced - if no source at all is provided for an image. An example would be an image that says "this was created by the US army" but the uploader doesn't give the source.
  • Tagging an image as missing permission - if it's sourced to a third party and no evidence is provided through OTRS or at an external URL for that third party that the party is OK with the license.
  • Tagging an image as a copyvio - if you are 100% sure it is a copyright violation - e.g., a photograph from People Magazine.
  • Tagging "nominate for deletion" - if the image doesn't fall neatly into any of the above categories (which turns out to be a lot of them). This will start a discussion about the image on its own subpage, and the community will give its input before an administrator closes it as keep or delete. In the case of the army image, if I had gone to the source and found that it was indeed misleading, I would have used this process. I would not have tagged it as copyvio because it's possible I had missed something.
Does this answer your question? Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 21:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
hey, thanks a lot! MathewTownsend (talk) 22:17, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Rushdie's signature

Hi Magog, I saw that you have put a deletion request of File:Salman Rushdie sign.jpg. Well, I took it from the English Wikipedia because there it said that was elegible for Commons; the process of transpasing directly the file was to complicated for me, so I just copied to my computer and the uploaded it. If there is something wrong with the file, then no problem, you can delete it right now. In any case, I edited the file and put as source the English wikipedia to make it clear. Best regards, --Roferbia (talk) 06:48, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

It's an understandable mistake, and I'm certainly not blaming you for making the transfer. You would have to be extremely familiar with the laws of India and the UK regarding copyright. The fact is that Commons has a slightly different policy than English Wikipedia: on Commons, an item must be free in both the home country and the United States; on English Wikipedia, it's only the United States. In this case, a signature is not considered copyrightable in the US, but probably is in the UK and in India. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 13:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Jacob Marcus.jpg

You wrote that the images of the frame should be deleted as unfree. Are you sure that this is correct? It says {{PD-self}} (not {{PD-Art}}) and there is an OTRS ticket (which shouldn't be needed for giving permission for an 18th century painting). The {{PD-self}} claim looks like a licence for the photo of the frame. --Stefan4 (talk) 14:49, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 16:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Please help me transfer 230 images from the English Wikipedia to Wikicommons

These images are all from the book "Wikipedia – The Missing Manual" which were all published by the same source under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License. I need all these images on commons for the Hebrew edition of the book which I am working on.

The users in the Wikicommons IRC channel recommended that I'll ask for your help on this matter. What do you think? TVJunkie (talk) 15:25, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Actually, User talk:MGA73 would probably be a better place to ask. He has a bot that transfers images in bulk automatically, whereas I do not. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 16:58, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
I started with some of the images, but they are a bit boring. --Stefan4 (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, there are a lot of images and therefore the transferring process might be a bit too boring for us humans, and ideal for a bot. Hopefully MGA73 would agree to help. TVJunkie (talk) 17:46, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Summary of OgreBot 2

An user has asked me for help as he misunderstood the text summary of OgreBot 2. "(BOT): new upload: clean up" may be interpreted as a reupload of the file cleaned. Maybe something like "text clean up of new upload" would be clearer. --V.Riullop (talk) 08:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

✓ Done I reworded it a bit, hopefully it's better. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 05:08, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

File:William Andrews Clark Memorial Library front entrance.jpg

You changed a lot of things here. This looks wrong to me; the image was uploaded to both en:File:Entrance.JPG and en:File:Clark13.JPG and Entrance.JPG is older. As far as I can tell, the uploader of Entrance.JPG is telling the truth while the uploader of Clark13.JPG is lying. According to the EXIF, the photo was taken on 20 August 2007, and Entrance.JPG was uploaded on the next day, but Clark13.JPG wasn't uploaded until the following year. Shouldn't your changes be reverted? --Stefan4 (talk) 19:46, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

That's a head-scratcher; I have no idea why I made those changes. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 04:57, 14 September 2012 (UTC)