User talk:Maikolaser

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Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Maikolaser!

-- 18:48, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Sogdian Picture[edit]

Not a single word with "Sassanian" or "Sassanid" was found in this source: (<-- this is wrong)

In conrast, the source says following: "The grown-up men's kaftans on this stone engraving usually had >>two lapels<< in Turkic manner. On the whole, the costume of Sogd in the 6-th - 8-th cc. underwent Turkization in the biggest degree if compared to the costume of any other Iranian-speaking people."

Please change the data in the correct form. - Maikolaser (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2012 (CET)

Source clearly states:
  • The Sasanian influence on the costume of Sogdiam nobility was not less substantial beginning from the 5th c.
  • Sasanian and the Early Medieval epoch: 3-4th - 7-8th cc. AD)
  • From the 6th c. the hem, according to Sasanian traditions, had vertical side cuts rimmed with wide stripes of decor
  • A goddess in the epic scene from has in stitched on shoulder medallions of Sasanian type, not with typically Iranian rosette or a bust image inside etc. --Orijentolog (talk) 12:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Why you are lying again, the source says this:
  • Your 1st point says 5th c (this means 400-500 A.D.!!!!!)
  • Your 2nd point says: „The article presents a brief summary of some materials on Sogdians from three chapters of my PhD dissertation “The Costume of the Ancient Iranian-Speaking Peoples and the Methods of Its Historical-Cultural Reconstructions” (2002)1. The dissertation gives a detailed reconstruction of the costume complex of 13 major nomadic and sedentary peoples of the Iranian world of three different epochs of the pre-Islamic history (Scythian-Achaemenian epoch: the 7th - 6th - the 4th -3d cc. BC; Parthian-Sarmatian epoch: the 3d-4th - the 7th-8th cc. AD; Sasanian and the Early Medieval epoch: 3-4th - 7-8th cc. AD) and contains their comparative analysis. It gives the opportunity to define the mechanisms of international contacts in the sphere of the costume and to study the direction of the costume evolution for some Iranian-speaking peoples, to make the information about the sign functions of clothes more precise. Special consideration is given to the clothes themselves, the task of investigating various small accessories, besides that, being impossible for a single researcher (the exception being made only for such a large accessory as the belt). The data on the coiffure, in many cases definitely showing ethnical specificity, has also been taken into consideration."
AS YOU SEE THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN ABOUT SOGDIAN DRESS!!!
  • Your 3rd point is about !!!MALE NON-THROWN-OPEN CLOTHING!!!
  • Your 4th point is about !!!Shoulder ornaments!!!
But the picture on the right
Sogdian New Year Festival, Northern Qi.jpg
is showing dress with >>two lapels<< which is of Turkic origin! ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> --->
The Turkization
„Sogd was one of the most important regions included into Great and then Western Qaghanat. Turkization reflected in wearing special turbans by both sexes, kaftans and sleeved coats with two lapels and also in male hair-cuts with 2, 4 or 6 braids and including plate-decorated belts along with large plaques, groups of pairs or fours of small semi-spherical plaques into the general set of ornaments. On the whole, the costume of Sogd in the >>6-th - 8-th cc.<< underwent Turkization in the biggest degree if compared to the costume of any other Iranian-speaking people."
- Maikolaser (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2012 (CET)

Facts are clear:

  • Two periods in the history of the Sogdian costume can be singled out: Heptalitian (5th -6th cc.) and Turcic (7th - the beg. of the 8th c.).
  • Early Medieval clothes of Sogd known to us, in my opinion, can be researched in the boundaries of two periods. The first one is connected with nomads-Heptalites prevailing in Western Turkestan (the 5th - the 1st half of the 6th cc.). The political dominance of early Turks (approximately from 565 to the 40-ies of the 8th c.) accompanied by economical and cultural rise of Sogd is characteristic for the second period. But the second period of the costume history evidently started not soon after the beginning of the Turkic rule but half a century later, at the beginning of the 7th c.
  1. Dorothy C. Wong, expert for East Asian art, clearly states that steles of Northern Qi dynasty are from 6th century.

Stele is from mid 6th century, despite you've tried to manipulate with dates (550=700). --Orijentolog (talk) 13:21, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't you recognize that you are contradicting yourself?
  • Two periods in the history of the Sogdian costume can be singled out: Heptalitian (5th -6th cc.) and Turcic (7th - the beg. of the 8th c.).''„Sogd was one of the most important regions included into Great and then Western Qaghanat. Turkization reflected in wearing special turbans by both sexes, kaftans and sleeved coats with two lapels and also in male hair-cuts with 2, 4 or 6 braids and including plate-decorated belts along with large plaques, groups of pairs or fours of small semi-spherical plaques into the general set of ornaments. On the whole, the costume of Sogd in the >>6-th - 8-th cc.<< underwent Turkization in the biggest degree if compared to the costume of any other Iranian-speaking people."
Another source:
  • "Remarking on the Turco-Sogdian variety, Sims-Willians 1992, p.56 states: "... the writers, even though they wrote in Sogdian, were more accustomed to thinking in Turkish". [...]. Mahmud al-Kasyari in the 11th century is also very similar: "... They are from Sogd which between Bukhara and Samarqand, but their dress and manner is that of Turks", cf. Dankoff/Kelly, vol. I, p.352." (Werner Sundermann, Almut Hintze, François de Blois, Iranica17: Exegisti monumenta, Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, 2009, p.583)
Please accept these facts, ...
... because the picture is showing dress with >>two lapels<< which is of Turkic origin! Look here, it is the same as Gokturks dress. Gokturk petroglyphs from Mongolia (6th to 8th cent. AD) ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> --->
Tyurki.jpg
Costume of Turks on wall paintings in the “Hall of Ambassadors” in Afrasiab (Samarkand), the middle of the 7th c. (Yatsenko 2004, fig. 1).:---> ---> http://www.transoxiana.org/14/Images/yatsenko_25.jpg

- Maikolaser (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2012 (CET)

You're manipulating to much; quoting Sassanids I wasn't refering to photo but your fake claim that Not a single word with "Sassanian" or "Sassanid" was found in this source [1]. Sassanids are mentioned at least 10-15 times. --Orijentolog (talk) 13:47, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
This was my fault, Sorry. I didn't know that it is written as "Sasanian" and not "Sassanian". However, fact is that >>two lapels<< is of Turkic origin and not Sasanian. Understand? - Maikolaser (talk) 14:49, 15 March 2012 (CET)
Two lapels were also worn by Zoroastrians at their ceremonies in Panjakent (5th century), so it isn't clearly "Turkic". We're talking also about one element among dozens. --Orijentolog (talk) 14:37, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
  • 2nd: I suppose the sentences you have mentioned are these ones:
  • "In religious ceremonies a mantle with large triangular lapels was worn over the caftan (PLATE LXXXII / 7)."
  • "A triple cord reminiscent of the Zoroastrian kūstīg and a mask (padān) over the lower part of the face (PLATE LXXXII / 6) distinguished the priests."
  • How you can read it is about a triangular lapel and not two lapels and about Zoroastrian kūstīg and a mask (padān). The first sentence reffers to the triangular lapel with the number 7 on this plate/picture: [2]. The second sentence reffers to the Zoroastrian kūstīg and a mask (padān) with the number 6 on this plate/picture: [3].
  • 3th: Conclusion: Your assumption about Zoroastrian dress with two lapels was wrong.
Next topic: The two main periods in the history of the Sogdian costume. (on Yatsenko's website: http://www.transoxiana.org/Eran/Articles/yatsenko.html)
  • Heptalitian (5th -6th cc.) and Turcic (7th - the beg. of the 8th c.).
    • Definition of 5th -6th cc. is 400 - 550 A.D. (because cc. means half of a century)
    • Definition of 7th - the beg. of the 8th c. is 600 - 740/50 A.D. (because the beg. means beginning)
  • On the same website we find the chapter "Periodization" where the date are more closely explained. I cite: "Early Medieval clothes of Sogd known to us, in my opinion, can be researched in the boundaries of two periods. The first one is connected with nomads-Heptalites prevailing in Western Turkestan (the 5th - the 1st half of the 6th cc.). The political dominance of early Turks (approximately from 565 to the 40-ies of the 8th c.) accompanied by economical and cultural rise of Sogd is characteristic for the second period."
    • Definition of (the 5th - the 1st half of the 6th cc.) is 400 - 550 A.D.
    • Definition of (approximately from 565 to the 40-ies of the 8th c.) is 565 - 740/50 A.D.
4th: And now lets tackle the Sogdian Stele: It is dated to 567 or 573. This is exactly fiting to the political dominance of early Turks (565 - 740/50). So it is highly possible that the first Turkic costumes begin right here, on this Sogdian Stele: ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> ---> --->
Sogdian New Year Festival, Northern Qi.jpg
But on the other hand you could also be right, because Yatsenko goes on as follows, I cite: "But the second period of the costume history evidently started not soon after the beginning of the Turkic rule but half a century later, at the beginning of the 7th c. It was the starting point of turkization of Sogd (especially after the reforms of West Turkic qaghan Ton-jazbgu (618-630), in the course of these reforms the local nobility in conquered countries got Turkic titles and was officially included into the administrative system of the Qaghanat. [.]. So, the boundary line between two periods of late “costume” history of Sogd lies, to my mind, approximately in the 20-ies of the 7th c."
So, you could also be right, but not completely, because Yatsenko goes on in the next chapter (Turkization) as follows, I cite: "Turkization reflected in wearing special turbans by both sexes, kaftans and sleeved coats with two lapels [...]."
So, that means that two lapels is of Turkic origin IN EVERY CASE.
Yatsenko is ending as follows, I cite: "On the whole, the costume of Sogd in the 6-th - 8-th cc. underwent Turkization in the biggest degree if compared to the costume of any other Iranian-speaking people."
Conclusion: The Sogdian Stele (dating to 567 or 573) is clearly fiting into the era of Turkization during the political dominance of early Turks (565 - 740/50) : ---> ---> --->
Sogdian New Year Festival, Northern Qi.jpg
Further Gokturk dress with two lapels: [4], [5], [6], [7] - (taken from this website: http://www.transoxiana.org/14/yatsenko_turk_costume_chinese_art.html)
To strenght my position, Yatsenko says on this [8], that: "A series of Early Turkic costume depictions belonging to the 2nd half of the 6th – the 1st half of the 8th cc. in art monuments of neighboring China may be and should become much more important for the study of their dress."
This means that even many decades before the 6th c. there was Turkic influences in this region.

- Maikolaser (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2012 (CET)

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Denniss (talk) 10:15, 11 December 2012 (UTC)