User talk:Rocket000/Archive 3

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Mis-categorized Template:Rename media/de[edit]

Hi, I (rather: Commons AND me) urgently need HELP! I don't find my mistake, but am well aware that this is due to my edit: Template:Rename media/de is now categorized as Category:Media requiring renaming ;[[[ -- I suppose you could help? For possible talk, please rather go to User talk:Siebrand#Template:Rename media until further notice. Therefore, eod here. TX, --WeHaWoe (talk) 07:56, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

How's that? Rocket000 (talk) 20:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, looks like bug being fixed ;) -- I again forgot about that "category=" 8((
I was not aware at all that the /lang version should not be used as a template. Is this generally so? Is there (where is) an explanation on this which I might look up? Main question: would I be kind of disallowed to use Template:Pink_CC/de , for instance?
Together with user:Finnrind, I try to become more clear on the renaming procedure on Commons talk:MediaMoveBot. There's however a lot of "stuff" there. Would you possibly be as kind as to install MiszaBot in a way that it ould archive stuff, say, 8 days after it was "closed" by a trusted user, or would that be asked too much? I like cleanups, as you probably remember, but if such "closing of discussion" would have to be done by an admin, it would be OK as well.

Looking forward to your answer (preferably there, to, regarding my notes, if possible). --WeHaWoe (talk) 08:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

In general, yes, /lang templates shouldn't be used directly, however, there are major exceptions like user message templates. Template:Pink_CC/de is also fine since it's a customized template. There's no strict policy in place, but it's preferred to use the English template directly since it can be read my the most people and prevents every page from being in a different language. I never used MiszaBot before, but I'll look into it. Rocket000 (talk) 19:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
TX for the info; you however misunderstood me on MiszaBot (I supposed you were very familiar with it, as you proposed to me to use it, on June 6th): THAT far as to get MiszaBot archiving 8 (or n) days after the last edit, I came myself, using it on my talk page since then ;) -- I however meant that on an article's talk page like the one in question, not everything should necessarily be archived after n days, but only if someone trustworthy feels it is not of use any more. I think I saw such "approval" on Commons, too (it's quite familiar on deWP), but I do not remember where, and the instructions for MiszaBot do not seem to allow such. I meanwhile asked en:User_talk:Misza13#de:Template:Autoarchiv-Erledigt#Beispiel on this. --WeHaWoe (talk) 06:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Another question on Template:Rename[edit]

Would it, by some "IFs" be possible (at reasonable expense) to get {{rename}} to categorize in three different ways, depending on the number of parameters AND the kind of editors used? I mean

  1. IF {{rename|Newname.ext|reason}} [or, easier to manage, {{rename|anything|anything}}}}] AND editor="trusted user" (or admin), categorize Category:Media requiring renaming
    ...and, in case this would be done, PLEASE rename "Category:Media requiring renaming" to something like "Category:Media approved for renaming", the now similar category names being EXTREMELY confusing to lower level English speakers.
  2. IF {{rename|anything}}, categorize Category:Media renaming requests
  3. ELSE, if just {{rename}}, categorize Category:Media renaming requests needing target

Categorization #3 is already functional (see Image:!!!!Kスクエアタウンキャンパス0008.JPG, but #1--#2 are not. I suppose it might seriously reduce the work of the bot, as there will be by far more #2s if the template is ever used by non-trusted users (which imo might be encouraged to some extent), which would mean that the bot would mostly "waist its runtime" only to change Category:Media requiring renaming into Category:Media renaming requests. Depending on your answer here, I'd put the proposal on Commons_talk:MediaMoveBot to have the idea discussed or accepted, but such would not be of any use if no-one would do that job ;) [guess at whom I thaught?]. AFAIK, BetacommandBot does not even run weekly, as for now, which means that Category:Media renaming requests might become "crowded by #2-stuff" easily.

  • On Image:!!!!Kスクエアタウンキャンパス0008.JPG, I'd also like to ask whether such filenames are already prevented by the new upload mask. If not, it might be a good idea to automatically tag them [e.g., any filename starting by !! or ?? in ASCII] something like "Category:Filenames with asiatic signs", as only people able to speak such language would probably ever be able to make any improvement on such filename.

Best, --WeHaWoe (talk) 05:17, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with those changes and would be willing to do them, however, since they are used by a bot, any changes we make would break the whole system unless the bot was updated as well (something beyond my control). Rocket000 (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Help needed[edit]

Maybe you could fix such within seconds? (I'm not in a hurry, but rather feel like I'd have to study for days ;)

You just needed to add it to Template:Rename needs target/lang. Rocket000 (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Remember Armstrong ;) "That's one small step for man… one… giant leap for ME!"

As Template:Rename shows two different texts, depending on being used with one or two parameters (which I personally feel to be rather a gadget than useful: It really would make sense to show a difference between approved and non-approved edits instead, "reason" being obvious in most cases) AND I translated both versions, I'd want to show both of them, plus the output of Template:Rename needs target, in both languages, just to be compared.

Note that I am meanwhile well aware that this is not to be used for actually renaming files, but I think I need it as part of a complete translation, and as a help to people with less-than-perfect English. --WeHaWoe (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

If you're using it just for comparison, you can edit the template however you want to suit your needs or just make a new template with both texts. Rocket000 (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion on Template:Rename as the main version[edit]

Again, I understand that Template:Rename media ist in theory more precise, but practically more confusing, the syntax mostly being used will remain "rename|....", NOT "Rename media|....", nor any other at this time existing redirect. How about Template:Rename making the main template [again, I suppose?], whilst all others allowing, but displaying (as it's done with outdated "PD-" or complicate "duplicate"-templates some hint how to do better/easier. I'm again talking about non-native English speakers and/or people who have duífficulties in typing ;) --WeHaWoe (talk) 10:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

✓  Renamed but I don't think anything should be added to the template as the redirects work fine (we do it with deprecated PD- tags because they are being replace by different templates and need to be updated manually). Rocket000 (talk) 23:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

will your move "Template:Rename media moved to Template:Rename" affect those images that have been proposed for renaming with the old template before your move? --Túrelio (talk) 23:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. The redirect's in place so both should work exactly the same. Rocket000 (talk) 23:14, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

User rights groups[edit]

Are you planning to do anything more about this? Just picking up a few old threads. Cheers --Herby talk thyme 13:00, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it didn't really get the response I would have liked, but I'm still open to the idea in general. Rocket000 (talk) 18:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough - I just reckoned I had about enough support for the "Patroller" & "Autopatrolled" to put in a bug req (takes for ever by the look of it). I'll leave it until I'm back now I think. Cheers --Herby talk thyme 11:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Since you seem to be[edit]

a new busy bee around here... how about back checking me on this edit "validating" a Bot move from en.wikipedia. Taking that got me into a lengthy edit on the danged novel page, plus references! Sigh.

  • Just look over the inline commented categories I tried to see if I had any near misses on names. This sort of image really doesn't fit into much here, but the awards cat. Anyhow, the other thing I need to know was whether I should clear that template, as I commented out, or was there another procedure to handle it.
  • FYI, don't care where you answer, but if here, ping my talk so the banner activates.

Thanks, and nice to meetchya, even if you did think I was dead or some such. <g> (I can assure you the news of my demise was exceedingly premature! <BSEG>) // FrankB 06:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and remember it only takes one image to make a new category is causing a little disconnect! Oh, Gawd, the number of CFD discussions I've seen picking on a cat for having 4-5 members! Nonetheless, outside the author, and perhaps two cats to handle fictional milieu's such an image was pretty well situated, or so I thunk. Yikes! Gotta head to bed soon! // FrankB 07:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
How hard is it to merge cats? See Atmosphere vs. Atmosphere of Earth. One under meterology, the other under planetary science, natch. The funny thing is the one subcat contents under Atmosphere of Earth... meterological symbols under planetary sciences! Ahem. That I'll probably move ASAP... just wondering how easy organizing this stuff is. {{Category redirect}} still a viable option? And is the long awaited ability to #redirect ... finally in play? I had a bit to say on that on Bugzilla a year back when we were doing the Maps schemas. // FrankB 07:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Be careful what you offer... you may find you're a slave to a wikiworkaholic... gotts to scratch an itch, there's a cat loop involving Barometers I just spotted. You all still worry about loops in the hierarchy, right? <g> Actually meant to say, I'm a big fan of the Cat redirects...we worked out would be best to combine with a redirect cat so have the best of both worlds, the bot tidying up old names so to speak. However Robert G left wp for a while right then, and I didn't have the time then to want to take on learning a Bot, so we did w/o any for a few months. Hell, I've never bothered to try out AWB, even though I'm "licensed and approved". Too many prose edit tasks, and so forth. By the time I was thinking to take the Bot on, he'd come back.

I'm too widely spread to focus so narrowly on a regular basis anyway, so just as well. But getting closing admins to leave a cat redirect in place for renamed cats never caught on. I avoid site politics mostly, so no one was pushing it as a better plan. I get a lot done in spurts though, so I'll likely see if your Bot can help 'somewhen'. I think I be rambling, sure sign should go find a pillow! Sorry.

One last question... is there a script I could load to suppress loading up the thumbnails... at the moment I'm just trying to deal with the category schema, and their disconnects, so to speak. Not using the bandwidth would speed page loading, I would hope. // FrankB 07:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Bot request[edit]

OK, I'll ask around over WP too. Interiot may know, if he's still around, or some of my image specialist contacts. He was 'wikimissing' last I checked. How about a gross move of the cats in Atmospherical optics (imprecise and unprofessional name) to Atmospheric optical phenomena. Cat Redirect on the former, since t'was well populated and I'll disconnect the later as a subcat of the former. If you really be up for tasking, should really be split. Corna and a few others really belong in Planetary atmospheres, and so should Atmospheric optical phenomena, with a new Atmospheric optical phenomena of Earth to get the earth specific phenomena, like green flash, et. al. (Loose you?) Earth is a parent or grandparent cat of Atmosphere. Planetary Atmospheres of extraterrestrial things. Wrong file drawers right and left! <g> // FrankB 08:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • FYI- Fast content inspection of thumbnails in Atmospheric optical phenomena looks to me like the images should be moved to the proposed Atmospheric optical phenomena of Earth, probably as step one! There might be a few that should go elsewhere, but I think not many. How do you tell a bot to take 15 of 80, and move them here or there? Or to rephrase, how to I specify such to you, assuming the bot's capable of following a list of links. Could generate that fairly quick with a preview and __NOGALLERY__ I thinks and a bit of fiddling in a text editor... would that work? // FrankB 08:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, the easiest to do is to "rename" the whole category. For example, every instance of [[Category:Atmospherical optics]] on every page would be changed to [[Category:Atmospheric optical phenomena]]. If there's only some that should be moved, I recommend using a tool such as Cat-a-lot.js. I could do it with AWB and a list too but the other way is faster. Should I go ahead and do Category:Atmospherical opticsCategory:Atmospheric optical phenomena? Rocket000 (talk) 08:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. This: Well, the easiest to do is to "rename" the whole category. For example, every instance of [[Category:Atmospherical optics]] on every page would be changed to [[Category:Atmospheric optical phenomena]].
    1. Sounds like I'm out of date with a software update... Good Stuff and long overdue! (I did take a couple of long wikibreaks fall and winter... so's good to know (assuming I've the move tab).
  2. I think the script and AWB stuff was meant on the subset of pages, right? That was an aside for future info, so not in play today.
  3. Should I go ahead and do Category:Atmospherical opticsCategory:Atmospheric optical phenomena?
    1. Hell Yeah. I'm gonna do bed. Just had to reboot, so sorry for the delay. If you do that much, I'll check it over when I get going again... (4-6 hours typically). G'night.
  4. Just checked ... I've no move tab. Your last came as I was doing so...
":Ok, I went ahead and made the merge. I'll leave it to you to pick out those that should go in Category:Atmospheric optical phenomena of Earth. Either turn on the Cat-a-lot gadget and do it yourself or drop me off a list (just replace whatever is on User:Rocket000/Sandbox with the list if you want). I strongly encourage using the gadget—it's fast and easy. Rocket000 (talk) 09:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Good! Yeah! Team work!. and G'night... for real this morning. (Ouch) // FrankB 09:25, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
re: ' Heh, it's not that easy yet. Every page in the category still needs to be edited. We rely on bots to do the work, specifically SieBot who can be given commands trough...'
'Heh heh heh--It never is, is it. It never is... Though I did' 'had thunk the developers were planning on that "soon"... 'a very relative term' being edujamcated well in the sciences— me thinks personally— they use the units of the geologic time scale. Not quite sure why they can't do such as a sort of superbot and tack that into the system, pretty quickly. Every time I recall hearing about some new "goody"/change, seems like it's taken a good year and a half or p'raps two! Sigh. I'm starting through de cats now so will get back on botting those pages we've "misfiled temporarily". // FrankB 15:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Margret Hofheinz-Döring[edit]

Hallo, I found a notice of you. I would like to write german, and I understand a bit english. I don´t know whether or not I have to do something. I have also a problem with the picture "Geizhals". Like all others of Margret Hofheinz-Döring, I have the Right about the pictures and a Common-number and put the picture under CC-BY-SA-3.0, but it seems there is a difficulty. --Galbrima (talk) 09:09, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

No, you tagged them correctly, however, Image:Geizhals, Margret Hofheinz-Döring, Mischtechnik, 1926 (WV-Nr.5579).JPG was marked as missing permission. In other words, there's no proof that you are the copyright holder. If you have any type of proof that the author transfered the rights to you, please email it to For now, I will remove the tag (so it doesn't get deleted in the meantime). Be prepared for other images to be marked as missing permission too. You may wish to talk to the users who are leaving you warning messages to explain your situation. Rocket000 (talk) 09:30, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I cared for user:Galbrima for a while. There's a "general" OTRS ticket for her uploads since some time, so, nothing to do but to add thatone to that file, too (which I'll do soon). --WeHaWoe (talk) 10:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Done.--WeHaWoe (talk) 10:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for taking care of that, WeHaWoe! Rocket000 (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

the speedydeletes today[edit]

Thank you. I made a mess when I started. It seems to be gone now. I appreciate this. (Gah!) -- carol (talk) 11:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Welcome. :) Rocket000 (talk) 21:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


Hi Rocket! Just passing by to say thanks for your kind words and support vote in my admin request. I look forward to further collaborate with you around here. Cheers, Waldir talk 14:31, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for deleting Image:Antennendiagramm2.gif. You can read an annotation on my talk-page. I'm not active in Wikipedia yet - this message is shown since a long time on my talk-page. Nevertheless some people expect an activity of me by putting these prefabricated messages: This media may be deleted! → May be! There aren't drawbacks for me.

An answer is'nt required. Wikipedia may be deleted. Charly Whisky (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

"Wikipedia may be deleted" !?! lol, that may be true, but this ain't Wikipedia. Bots and user scripts can't read anyway. Those automated messages are a courtesy, the are not necessary. There's no notability policy here. The only reason that image was deleted was because you never gave us a source. It's GFDL, but you never gave an author's name. What am I suppose to do? If it was self-made, you need to tell us that. I can undelete it if your willing to fix this. Rocket000 (talk) 21:19, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
first: lol? These pictures were used in Wikipedia and its sister projects in many languages. The platform Wikimedia Commons provides only, that the same pictures needn't memorise in every language. If you delete a picture in Commons, you delete pictures in Wikipedia.
second: only minutes later deleting a Commonsdelinker deletes all the link-entries in all Wikipedia projects. An undelete of the pictures doesn't help. I don't know all former articles using these pictures. This means: this information is lost and these are the first steps to delete the whole Wiki.
third: Very interesting: OsamaK or the IP are bots???
Just during this edit, a next self-made picture of me may be deleted (by a sneaky IP once again). I can anticipate a deleting in this case now. But later I'm for many weeks or even months inactive. These pics are stored in commons the year before last. --Charly Whisky (talk) 06:32, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I understand, but we can't have unsourced media on Commons. If there's anything I can do to help, just let me know. (Sorry.) Rocket000 (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
It's o.k. :-) --Charly Whisky (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

We need a compromise on this[edit]

re: this surprise

I use this constantly to probe whether a category name exists, so to pick out the best choices, and so forth... or just to get a lead to the best choice. Deliberately breaking it was mean! <g>

How about we patrol and create something like "Category:templates not to be used outside template namespace". We can test the namespace, and have it add such if in the wrong places. The message will manifest if someone goofs as one of the categories, which is gonna be pretty obvious. Inside template space is another matter, and redirects pages, is negotiable though minor here--you guys don't track those with categories much. Bots shouldn't be allowed to edit templates anyway. For the moment, I'm reverting you and will add a message to keep it out of main namespaces. Dang it, I really do use it a lot. Particularly in redirects pages on WP. You just pick of the parent article's cats, paste them down, and bam, you're done. // FrankB 19:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, that's fine for testing. I didn't mean to break it (I left out the opening noinclude by mistake). However, it shouldn't be used in any namespace. My bot has categorized thousands of templates. Some templates, translations, should never be transcluded or subst'd. We have {{translated tag}} that does all the categorizing for these. Most of our templates are categorized. More then any other project our size, at least. That has been a major project of mine. See User:Rocket000/Template category scheme (still working out the details). Using non-standard categorizing systems also screws up text-based queries and find and replace jobs such as renaming a category. It may save you a little time but it creates more work for others. And remember we don't have articles here! ;) Rocket000 (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
FYI re: FYI, that sort of message is called a "Ping", and needn't be either so long or formal.
   They has some conventions, so to speak...
    Sometimes, someone adds &nbsp; sans sig, et. al. and just puts a link back in the edit summary. Ping [[User talk:Rocket000#top]] Other variants are to just put it on the talk AND the summary but this form is most common on the talk, so the full destination shows in the summary: [[User talk:Rocket000#top|Ping]] ~~~~ Such even works across the wikipedia divide between sisters as you can see purusing User talk:David Kernow between him and me last year when we reset the Maps categories here. The only caveat is you have to make a real edit to the user page to trigger the alert banner.
Now that I'm back from the diversion one caused on WP... I'll take a look at your template scheme after I close out the chain of edits I'm pursuing... that can be a while though recatting and structuring things! David and Mike Peel with occasional assistance (and gripes from me <g>) overhauled the wikipedia categories last year. Best advice is to use the most common names on other sisters as much as possible... makes it user friendly to the occasional contributor here. Use {{interwikicat-grp}} everywhere possible and tie projects together.

Don't do what D&M did, they moved literally everything around to a 'namespace based schema' and NOW everytime I turn around, someone is fiddling with that and making up new categories... (related three days to my delay getting back, actually. He 'thunk up' a new category schema for redirects on WP, and broke some things... not sure what redirects projects people are gonna say to him when they see what he's done to their category schema! Ooops! No prior discussion.) something about youth and working with templates somehow that must be gratifying... as a single class of page, the least changes are the best... otherwise you F*** up others used to the tools and the categories by the old names&mash; as a class, are the most picked upon and needlessly changed tools on WP... See Template:Template Category's history... that "genius" made a month long project out of tweaking one template which worked fine before he ever saw it... then broke it for many pages. Sigh... Youthful enthusiasms are great, but oh, they wear, how do they wear! Sigh. At least make sure to use a category redirect on old names... they deleted many, which costs people even more time when they count on the category to find a seldom used tool--they need in a hurry, usually. Such disruptions to others are best avoided by changing little that they depend upon. Time is a precious thing... and we're all donating time (cha-ching! ==$$$) aren't we. Unnecessary changes just make the foundation's projects more hostile... and the learning curves are steep enough without the grief.

As far as {{cat also}} goes, I've no firm need to use it outside of probing for "good names", so I can live with not using it in other spaces. That said, I can't figure out why your bots can't look for a string SANS "Category:" and act appropriately anyways. Silly coding if they need the prefix for a text swap. A deletion is obviously a bit different.
Text GSAR and I been together since '76 or so... so trust me[1]... no reason a routine can't make a distinction even there, save lazy coding. What I haven't figured out is why any of these unix based johnny-come-lately spinoffs haven't replicated the old PDP-8/DEC-10 [Ancient history of computing!] CSAR/SAR utility... was great. You could escape the "escape characters and change to another, then search, search and globally replace, or conditionally SAR all with the same basic command line. Moreover, could insert multiple wildcard fields so search beginning conditional, don't care, another conditional, match this... and replace only the match this stuff if desired. Really Good stuff. Handled newlines and Template:Wdys (Looks like i need to check on wiktionary computing topics... would swear I made that article when I did escape character and control codes. Harumph... always more to do! And the wife gets angrier!) too. Most SAR's don't today. They're grep based, and something hasn't clued the unix educated generation into the benefits of searching past line ends. (Think I'm showing me mileage--AND rambling again!)
To get back to Template:Cat also (Edit Discussion links Page history), one trick is you needn't create the redlinked cat "Templates unfriendly to bots", as I didn't... having it there automatically, you can still see what's on the page by navigation to it. A good trick... use that sometimes to see if there is any occasion of a parameters definition and use... when things would be better handled without it, or to see when and how used and so forth. Good trick indeed sometimes.
Lastly, you do have articles... see saxony, space, earth, etc. They just aren't the main project focus... still in the article namespace, i believe. ttfn // FrankB 23:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Those aren't articles, those are galleries. If you check our system messages and interface, we have no "article namespace". They should not educate the reader though text, but provide links to projects that do have articles. This is done by the interwiki links in the sidebar. I strongly oppose using {{interwikicat-grp}} on template categories. It gives the idea that our categories are like other projects or should be like them. It adds to the confusion. It encourages others to bring over templates we don't want/need. We have a full scheme in place here and don't want to start getting the English Wikipedia's categories mixed in. Interwiki links for the templates themselves are usually a bad idea too. Just because the templates share the same name does not mean they should be similar. It creates tons of naming conflicts. Now we're stuck with things like {{tl}}, which is the ISO code for Tagalog. Very, very important for a multilingual project such as this, not so much for a English-only one. Sometimes, those links can be useful, but I think the sidebar links are enough. People are used to them. No need for some huge English-centric box that gives the same links (but a lot less).
I don't understand why we need "Templates unfriendly to bots" when we just have to check Special:WhatLinksHere for any transclusions. I do that all the time to find transcluded templates that need to be subst'd. Any reason for the category? Not a big deal, just curious. Rocket000 (talk) 23:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

AH Ping![edit]

re: Hehe, I know what a ping is, I just meant to leave you the message here. I'm so use to replying on my talk page... and I never see edit summaries since that notice banner takes you right to the page itself, so I don't think to use them. Ping, BTW. ;) Rocket000 (talk) 00:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

OIC... I use the other side (diff) link... the above had a prefixed "+" from picking it off the diff page. Shrug. Whatever floats yer boat! he haw! // FrankB 00:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


What is it with you and meta tools??? kindly undelete this... once again someone confuses their way of thinking with 'the way others must think too'. NOT SO. People are quite different, and so are the ways they proceed and organized tasks. This quite useful for accessing ANY namespace. I use in edits from preview windows (as of the need of the moment NOW! Grrr), all the fricken time. Also loose the logical fallacy that if it isn't used now, it isn't ever used. Some of the best tools are used very very ephemerally in preview modes, things are tweaked, then they are vanished after being of service. May not be the way YOU edit, but some of us only edit in one or at most two tabs... so back up to finish things in chains of edits.
Should I just copy new one's in when I find other missing tools sans deletion referenced discussions? Looks to me you fail on many to link to a deletion review. I've been working over here for what 3.5 days and this is the fifth tool I think so far I found deleted sans process. Harumph. I won't tell, but not cool either. You're supposed to be one of the cops, not a "perp" when they make you an admin. Don't they hand out a halo with the job title and the pay raise??? // FrankB 02:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Things are different here. I suggest getting familiar with the community here and how things work before imposing how you think it should work. No we don't spend hours and hours on trivial "deletion reviews". Have you ever seen a deletion request here? You made the template without discussion so why can't it be deleted without discussion. It has nothing to do with being an admin; if someone else speedied that, I would delete for them also. Please, please do start that interwiki template stuff again. Please. I've spent so long cleaning that up and fixing all our problems it caused. Look at any other project, specially Meta, they got rid of your templates too. They are not welcome here either. Rocket000 (talk) 02:10, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you go to Meta and restore some there starting with m:Template:Las... Sorry, I don't mean to be this way. It's just something I feel strongly about. Nothing personal. Rocket000 (talk) 02:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
I've tagged quite a few things for deletion myself, and participated in a half-dozen more, so submit you're full of shit. These have been discussed in deletion pages here in my experience. Just see the notices about deletions on my talk Archive01 and 02, for starters, so suggest you and more than a few others see that quite differently. One such discussion here was also posted on the pump a year back... Do you want me to put something up on the pump and see how many people react to such high-handedness? Say the word. Frankly, considering the small size of templates, I really wonder at the reasoning of anyone inclined to delete a single one, save for any which are patent nonsense. Particularly, since they cost someone time to write and must see some use, or wouldn't have been created. In the overall scheme of things, they aren't worth anyone's time to worry about.

But I will take your attitude as an okay to replace what you've not referenced to such discussions—seems you expect anyone to skate on thin ice since you do. As for m:template:las, I stand corrected. I in fact adapted it from the meta template lts. The background on that is however quite different, for it was deleted in a review on meta, not without due process, however poorly documented by this edit summary. Pathoschild, was pushing exactly that "THINK LIKE I DO, REMEMBER THE NAMES I REMEMBER, DO IT MY WAY" mindset then and now. Links as he annotated does do the same job... but if and only if one knows how to give it arguments... and iirc, event then the presentation is different. Bottom line, I've been involved on the politics, especially around templates, on ten of the eleven sister projects, so you aren't gonna snow me. My approach was the exact opposite. Stabilize the situation, eliminate the need to edit common useful tools and make those same commonly useful tools available on all the sisters. Pathoschild cost me four months of work on four of them, and I'd frankly like to kill the prick if I ever meet him. Probably settle for dropping him with a good left hook, but if you seek to emulate him, you're trash too.

My approach was the exact opposite. Stabilize the situation, eliminate the need to edit common useful tools and make those same commonly useful tools available on all the sisters. I even started a project to set that up, as I kept seeing time wasted on changes to things that should be left alone. Ah hell, just remembering that shit has me all spun up again. // FrankB 02:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


re: edit summary: {{Commoncats}} (Talk about short lifespans!)

How does a single wikilink duplicate the ability to link to three cats of alternate names, or three articles? But if you're gonna go off like that then do that {{sisterlinks}} monstrosity too.
AT LEAST put the Bot down and check whatlinkshere's, So kill this too
Template:OTHERSITE was written out of the code, iirc. disconnected now, so speedy that too while your knife is out.
By the way, you've tagged a bunch of the subtemplates of {{sisterlinks}} in Useless templates... OIC, now written out of it, apparently. The Calls to... If defined call , If defined call1 , If defined call2 , If defined call3 , Template call , Template call1 , Template call2 , and Template call3 in checking half, are a sandbox page only now.
You might find {{Template list}} useful in your template cat scheme.

Have a good day // FrankB 15:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, careful with the threats there. I'd frankly like to kill the prick if I ever meet him. Probably settle for dropping him with a good left hook, but if you seek to emulate him, you're trash too. A different admin would've block you for that.
I've been involved on the politics, especially around templates, on ten of the eleven sister projects Hmm.. wouldn't one start to think maybe the problem lies with them instead everyone else?
You really think more deletion requests like Commons:Deletion requests/Template:WikiPcatNo, Commons:Deletion requests/Template:Wikipediacat, Commons:Deletion requests/Template:Wikipedia, or Commons:Deletion requests/Template:W2c are necessary when getting rid of similar templates. Every one of your templates that has been nominated has been deleted with unanimous support (expect you, of course). The templates that are used are only used because you used them.
I think what you tried to do with the template sharing project without community discussion was... I'm not going to start with that. You know how people feel about it. Rocket000 (talk) 18:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Just saw this...
   The whole reason I'm ticked at Patheticchild is he preempted precisely that planned unveiling by attacking things which take up virtually no space, and on multiple sisters. Having a minimal schema worked out before presenting the hard to voice half-conceptualized "feeling" required a trial. More to the point, I knew when I set out that I was taking on a culture (ten really), but the parasitic mindset I still feel strongly about is that it is a waste of multiple peoples times to delete a tool they might use... even should YOU never see it on a page... many are quite useful in preview, as we've seen with Commoncats, or las or lts, to name three I use to keep things straight ALL THE TIME, when work requires it. Following community wishes on not using something like commoncats permanently, or at least long term is another matter, and one I'm happy to comply with... far less tagging work, don't you know. Judging such as useles, though is pretty damn arrogant, and frankly stupid. No two people, much less the thousands we have on these projects works the same nor thinks the same. Not a place to go, safely.
   BTW, You didn't mention that TSP's shell is in place and alive and well on five sisters, so the matter is hardly as cut and dried as you painted it. A number of people have signed on to support it, and other do and have that haven't, so maybe I'm not nearly as alone as you think from the votes you cite. IIRC, there were a few defenders too, besides me.
   There were and are, a lot of things that needed worked out, save but for updating interwikitmp-grp with an ability to access history, and making interwikicat-grp with that and a robust fix so one can turn on ALL, and not have malformed links under certain input conditions, . That he didn't even bother to contact me directly, you see, is what is unforgivable. How Fkng hard is it to leave a talk note? Or email me.
   It took a lot of time and trial and error (I was new to templates at the time) to put together what I did, and his attacks literally cost me three nights sleep addressing the matter at Xfds... before the system was even in place to talk about. So no, I'll never forgive that discourtesy, nor the time he wasted without even making a query.
Geeeee, four templates out of ... got to be close to a 50 or 60 ... what a lousy batting average! Make me laugh. Thanks though. I needed that. // FrankB 23:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
I understand you might find them useful. I have templates I made that I use all the time... but I keep them where they belong, in the userspace. It's not fair to those that have to clean up after your messes. Yes, it's a little inconvenient, but it's not just about you. I think it's pretty damn arrogant how you think that you, by yourself, have the right to do this crap on every project without approaching the community, without taking the time to get familiar with how things work locally, without assessing the community's needs, and without considering that your templates may not even be wanted. And have the nerve to call it a "WikiProject". No, one person does not make a project. I don't why you got the banner and the loose ends stuff. There is no TSP on Commons. (And keep it out of the mainspace and content categories, at least.) We're not an encyclopedia, so obviously we don't need the same templates. All of it's pretty English-centric. Why should the English Wikipedia great a nice big ugly box to link to their article when interwiki links are good enough for all the other languages?
I think the biggest issue is the excessive documentation. Half our users can't read that. The other half doesn't care. Maybe if you just showed what they did other people might start using them. Here's a random edit from you. You did nothing to the template. You spend all your time documenting. I even found a documentation page for a documentation page. Seriously? And what's with the version tables? They're templates. We're not f'ing writing software programs. That's pretty high and mighty if you ask me. The history log ain't good enough for you? Most of your templates are way more complicated and spread out than they need to be. I use the word "useless" because many simply do what MediaWiki already can do. Your methods are non-conventional and English-centric. It's cool you've found a interest in template building, but please take the time to consider how it impacts others. This isn't en.wp, so don't at like your at home. And don't think I'm done cleaning up... Rocket000 (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

A BOT run for my bad[edit]

Under brain farts...

See: Category:Blank_maps_of_Early_Modern_period_Europe and note the lingo I didn't listen to David Kernow's (faint echo of querisome about) about the phrase "showing history of the ..."

Want names of the forms (2-4) to be of the form of (1)... dropping the "the".
  1. Category:Maps showing history of the Early Modern period
  2. Category:Maps showing the history of the Early Middle Ages
  3. Category:Maps showing the history of the High Middle Ages
  4. Category:Maps showing the history of the Late Middle Ages

I'm also minded to have "of the" _____ (period), changed to "in the" (period). If you agree that would be a better naming do that too, and add Category:Maps showing the history of the Modern period as well Haven't got there yet, apparently in moving maps so nothing to fix... I believe that will cover the needs.

Dang, I'm late for dinner, but I just realized that if I do these with category redirect, that bot handles things just as well... So which do you prefer? This time images are involved too, so that seems like a better use of your time.

Unless you want to jump in and get there first, I'll just go ahead and do cat redirects on those. Do you all use the one line construct #redirect [[:Category:New category]]{{category redirect|New Category}}, so the Bot can still fix up source pages, and the category is still "live"? // FrankB 23:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll take care it. I think "of the" sounds right, like "I'm studying the history of...". Category redirects should always be soft redirects. Currently, we don't have a bot doing hash-mark ones. I can do them, but only one at a time. So, cat redirects should only contain {{category redirect|target}} and that's it. They should not be categorize (unless a species/genus name) because it really screws up incoming links from other wikis (where most our categories are link to), upload bots, and many other things. The majority of categorization here is done by bots and they will fill those redirects if your not careful. Also, you should use talk pages, especially if your going to leave your signature. Rocket000 (talk) 01:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


Hola, he visto que has borrado (delete) varias imágenes del artículo en español de es:Avianca sin justa causa, agradezco una explicación del motivo por el cual fueron borradas. Gracias!.-- 18:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


Hellow, i see you deleted 2 images the article of Avianca are you explain the reasons because you were delete??. Thanks and excusme for my english.--Nicop (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Hola, he visto que has borrado (delete) varias imágenes del artículo en español de es:Avianca sin justa causa, agradezco una explicación del motivo por el cual fueron borradas. Gracias!.--Nicop (talk) 22:20, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

As the edit summary said: "uploader is not copyright holder; PD-self doesn't work". Es decir carecían la información esencial. El uploader dijo que eran {{PD-self}} pero él no era el autor. No permiso. Excuse mi español. Rocket000 (talk) 01:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Disculpa la intromisión, sin embargo he recuperado una de las imágenes para revisar la imagen y los datos. En la metadata puedo observar que se consignan los datos de la camara con la que se tomó (Canon). Por ello, creo que si bien el autor se equivocó con las licencias, si son obra propia. Mucho te agradeceré tus comentarios, si es posible en mi página de discusión. Saludos Axxgreazz (talk) 05:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


Sorry but my english is....poor. Hai cancellato un immagine presente sulla pagina italiana di Lunezia che avevo creato zoommando su un immagine già presente da tempo su commons, quindi con libera licenza di diffusione ( Ora la reinserisco. Saluti --Kurioso (talk) 14:49, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but those images are not the same. Anyway, they look like scans to me. Rocket000 (talk) 11:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Scope proposal[edit]

Can you comment on Commons talk:Project scope/Proposal, please? See the last section. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:13, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I've posted a response[edit]

Please see Commons:Village pump#Is this image usable? Thanks. Udonknome (talk) 04:07, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to butt in here, but is there some reason that all of the people who watch the Village Pump and other question asking locations here are not trusted? I sure would like to know who they are if that is the case. -- carol (talk) 04:53, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
What? I'm not trusted? :( Rocket000 (talk) 11:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with anyone who answers at any of the question asking places. Occasionally more robust and complete answers are given when a number of people answer. Rocket000, this page has been on my watchlist since I weirded out when I first saw your nick and whatever. Today, I am left with questions about 1)why point the user to the public page for an answer instead of asking here 2)why follow a helpful user from the Village Pump or from the Help desk or from any of the other pages dedicated to answering questions. Perhaps more questions like that -- so I came here to ask "is there some reason that all of the people who watch the Village Pump and other question asking locations here are not trusted?" Which was perhaps an awkward shortening of all of those other questions. -- carol (talk) 12:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Additionally, (heh) if you are using the Village Pump for private reasons or any other reason either stated or unstated that you would like to be removed from my watchlist -- just say it. I really do not want to interrupt. Today, the logic was flawed or there is information about how things work here that I am not aware of. It was unusual to anyone else? -- carol (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand. Did I point a user to a public page? (Isn't the village pump public too?) What makes you think "people who watch the Village Pump" are not trusted? I think most are... Are you referring to the answer I gave Udonknome? I only pointed to the original source of that photo he was asking about. I was implying that the Flickr user shouldn't be trusted, not Udonknome or anyone else on Commons. What's this logic that's flawed? It's ok, you can be blunt with me. And no, don't remove me from your watchlist (unless you want to). Rocket000 (talk) 12:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
More: I have tried that search out he was using before and found it extremely unreliable. Not everything on there is CC licensed. Anyway, he didn't know where to find the info (i.e. the Flickr page). It had nothing to do with license changing or trust. We just needed to find the source. Once he did, i noticed all the images were of famous rappers, so using common sense, it didn't seem likely the Flickr user was the copyright holder, and sure enough, he wasn't. Is this what prompted your comment? Rocket000 (talk) 12:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, you looked into it much more than I did. I don't like doing the work for people though -- at least not very often or until I know they do other things.
A linear time line -- the question was asked, you gave an answer. I gave another answer, this "new user name" refined the question there and then came immediately here to get you to answer that question.
My "problem" and it is not really a problem especially when I can ask "what is going on" is: why bother leaving the second, refined question at the pump and coming here to ask you to go there to answer? Ask the second question here if an answer from you is desired or preferred?
Also, Rocket000, are you playing kind of dumb right now? I understand I do not always express myself that well, but this is a logistics problem.... -- carol (talk) 12:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
I understand now. You just need to be more forward with me (something you got to be careful with when talking to others here, but not me :) I think he came here because 1.) I didn't answer any question, but said " I don't know, but don't trust that search, it's wrong a lot. If you find an image, you must find where it says the license." And he did, so it makes sense he would expect a follow up from me. 2.) I don't think he didn't trust your answer or even wanted a second opinion, he just had a different question. You informed him of the process (so I didn't) and I told him what to do in that specific case regarding that specific image. Our answers were complimentary to each other. Teamwork! You don't see it like that. :( Rocket000 (talk) 13:16, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
It was and I do see it that way, except for this extra message. Instead of trying to determine the reason this message is here, I asked. Interestingly enough, I have a feeling that my question has not been answered :) -- carol (talk) 15:37, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
A little bit... but not intentionally! I guess do that sometimes to help avoid misunderstandings (especially when conversing in text) or something like that. Maybe it helps me understand the other person's way of thinking. I don't know, but it's definitely not the same as the kind that occurs principal offices. ;) Rocket000 (talk) 16:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
And to answer your other question. I don't know. :) Rocket000 (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
The help desk is usually fairly fscking cool. -- carol (talk) 16:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalist flag[edit]

A debate is taking place on the French wikipedia regarding the representativity of the anarcho-capitalist flag you added to wikipedia. If you have good reasons to defend the use of that flag, you can give them there. The question is on that talk page (in French). If you don't speak French, feel free to let me a message on my talk page on the English or French Wikipedia and I'll translate it there.

Regards, --Bombastus (talk) 15:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing about that flag nor support or oppose any political, economical, or cultural ideologies it may represent. I just like improving simple SVGs by hand. I don't care what the French Wikipedia (or any other project outside of Commons) chooses to do. That's up to them and things like this should be decided locally. I did not use that flag anywhere, let alone on some project written in a language I don't understand. According to fr:Special:Contributions/Rocket000, I only made one single edit there and it had nothing to do with any flag. (There's no need to relay this message as I don't really have anything to do with it or have any opinion on it's usage somewhere.) I hope everything works out for you guys. Cheers, Rocket000 (talk) 15:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
OK I thought you were the author of the flag and it appears you just enhanced it.. Nevermind, that's no important stuff. --Bombastus (talk) 17:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

red links[edit]

You are right imho but I think that reverting back is a bad idea since it will make the job queue swing. --Meno25 (talk) 03:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Deletion Request[edit]

Hehe, thats fine :-) > Rugby471 talk 07:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

After a night of catting images...[edit]

I believe I see what you were saying about the autocategories that bot assigns! Wow... Keep an eye out on Category:Diplomats from the United StatesCategory:Diplomats of the United States via category redirect. Just make sure it empties out OK. Name is more consistent with other Diplomats by country categories... I saw from a backlink on Category:American diplomats you'd deleted a similar category name back in June... Well here's why... the population was elsewhere under an unusual naming syntax. // FrankB 08:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Small bot requests[edit]


Move contents, all, in Category:Maps of counties of Norway to Category:Locator maps of counties of Norway; after the category doesn't need a cat redirect, it's just deceptive and off scheme naming. I'm sure some maps by counties will be found to put in there. thanks

(May as well anticipate future needs! <g> Tole you be careful what you offer! ~;( ... <g> // FrankB 00:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

LOL ... I was just parking a subcategory in this... give me a break! What a hoot... thought I was typing the name wrong! // FrankB 00:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

 :-) Rocket000 (talk) 00:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
NO! :(
see :)-- a ton a bunch, once removed. so do de undo thingy! //FrankB 00:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Wait... what!? You want me to move them back? And it was Category:Maps of counties of Norway not Category:Maps of counties in Norway. I'm confused. Rocket000 (talk) 00:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict...

Why am I getting the feeling everything this guy did here is uncategorized. Can you look up contribs and mabe spotcheck. This scheme (locator map look, see, feel) seems to be the common images on en.wikipedia coverage of Norwegian counties. This is the second I tumbled on, the other I'm about to back up to finish doing. Right now, I've got a chain of preview mode edits going at least seven deep... including a post never finished to you in the section above. GAaagagaagahhhhhhh! If it weren't for backing up sometimes I think I'd be terminally confused. Bad ENOUGH when I loop around coming in from checking a cat scheme or page on wikip... by the way. Can really use {{commoncats}} back. Someone deleted again. If you'd be so kind, it really helps me with all the cross checks. // FrankB 00:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. Moving to Locator maps was right and proper... and requested.
  2. Also suggested leaving the category empty... Maps of counties, are well. Maps of counties, not locator maps. No problem... If you look now, Maps of Telemark, which incorrectly were subcatted to Maps of Norway (which should at least be a half dozen counties or so... or large maps at least). In any event, it's a legitimate name, but should hold few images directly... but maps of counties categories, all of which are now aimed wrongly... save for Telemark! // FrankB 00:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not gonna ask... they're BOTH redlinks now... I don't work or type that fast!See! // FrankB 00:46, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected... IN is better than OF... didn't I create it, or did I use the right form unconsciously... and you think YOU're confused. Think I need to have dinner and a break. a least this went ok // FrankB 00:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so you want me to move Category:Locator maps of counties of Norway to Category:Locator maps of counties in Norway? Rocket000 (talk) 01:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely not... that one's fine, Category:Locator maps of counties of Norway is fine, for the contents are counties of Norway... Hold off on Category:Maps_of_counties_in_Norway Vs. Category:Maps of counties of Norway I want to recheck the name's hierarchy in other maps trees using counties. I'm getting pretty woozy (though it's been a great All-Star game) and about all I can handle right now is finding these uncategorized pics and fixing that. Tomarrow will do. The populated by Telemark I can create. If it should be the other, I'll point that right and have you undelete then. (Nothings going anywheres) // FrankB 05:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


  1. Move all maps in Category:Maps of Nord-Trøndelag to Category:Locator maps of cities and villages in Nord-Trøndelag except Image:Fosen kart.jpg, or move it back if easier, whatever! <g>
  2. Go ahead and undelete Category:Maps of counties of Norway... everything else is an 'of FOO' naming until you get to small entities. G'night // FrankB 07:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I did the move, but I didn't undelete the category because it's still empty. The content was simply [[Category:Maps of Norway]] so you can just recreate it if needed. Rocket000 (talk) 00:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


re: Bot moves needed:

  1. Category:Political divisions of the United States‎ --> the Contents --> Category:subdivisions of the United States
  2. To be anal, Category:Political divisions of the Soviet Union should be moved to Category:Divisions of the Soviet Union, but only if you want to adjust the subcats. Otherwise, being a dead country, I really don't care. Thanks // FrankB 04:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

your question on templates[edit]

ping // FrankB 15:26, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

2) Also see diff, morphing by substituting {{tl2}} for {{tlf}}... is this closer? Not knowing where you did your "ugly workaround", seems like a start on a cleaner output in other columns. // FrankB 15:34, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

3) FYI's

  1. {ttNN} are 'community' sandboxes on a number of sisters,
    1. so template namespace sensitive parameters can be worked with and tested in namespace contexts.
    2. Also useful for morphing a template and spot checking it's behavior versus expectations and not affecting lots of pages while verifying it's lack of adverse consequences or better behaviors, etc.
    3. Not sure whether your acerbic comment via /doc pages is "target policy", but managed on other sisters by blanking the template to just show Template:Tt0/doc so others know to use or is not available.
  2. That diff is your {{txrow}} plus an inline comment identifying it's source. No changes otherwise... until the diff generation.
  3. I've some errands to run today, so will be here on and off. Will make it a point to be around this evening (mine officially "starts" about six hours from now (~20-21:00 hrs (UTC)), but the two-three-four hours after that are flakey-availabilty depending on the wife's mood. Later than that, my energy level is a factor. Shrug.)
  4. Not gonna proceed further until I hear from you. That example of a page blowing up, would so I can see the picture and problems would be most helpful. I generally use the talk:TtNN pages for such, if you already don't have a place. You might also want to take a look at {{lts/}} for the links part of your table.See you been there... done that! <g>

Glad to help, but my head's not "in dealing with template quirks" right now, so I'll wait for clarifications. // FrankB 15:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

4) LIED, I did!

Played a bit with your tables of examples which might give you a lead... I certainly recommmend keeping something like the current second column, perhaps as a third column.

re: Revisiting focused on this: "Basically, figure out a way for |- |style="white-space:nowrap; vertical-align:top;" | {{tlf|1|2||4}} |{{1|2||4|||||}} to work right without having to do |- |style="white-space:nowrap; vertical-align:top;" | {{tlf|1|2||4}} |{{1|2||4}}."

If I have this right, what you need for the second column is to invoke the {{{1}}} parameter as a template with it' associated args:

{{ {{{1}}} {{#if:{{{2|}}}|{{!}}{{{2}}}}} {{#if:{{{3|}}}|{{!}}{{{3}}}}} {{#if:{{{3|}}}|{{!}}{{{3}}}}} ... }} instead of the current chain of ifeq's... which might by my other comment, become the logic for that third column. I'm pretty sure {{!}} will be needed in that... since it's inside the if's of the parser function, and the final mid-expansion form of NN args should be of the form:
{{ {{{1}}} | {{{2}}} | {{{3}}} |...| {{{NN}}} }} which the {{!}} provides the "|" for/within.

No more til we chat. Let me know when you start working. // FrankB 17:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I tried that too. Right now, txrow works exactly like I want it too, but the problem is that it uses the ugly workaround |example=. I simply want it to display {{tlf}}/{{tlc}}/{{tld}} correctly while continuing to display {{tl2}}/{{tlx}}/etc. correctly. Rocket000 (talk) 23:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I'm understanding your need... what you are calling a problem seems to me to be the way the template actually reacts with a given set of input conditions... see my extension in {{tt0}}. Have you tried replacing the logic for "example=" with {{ {{{1}}} | {{{2}}} | {{{3}}} |...| {{{NN}}} }} ? // FrankB 16:21, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, I got it to work with tlf and others that show empty params but then it didn't work right for the ones that do. It's ok, I'll just use example=. Maybe there isn't a way to have both work right. Thanks. Rocket000 (talk) 19:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
LOL... well, maybe you should just let someone fill in the blank, and so forth. Come right down to it, such tables have limited utility, as anything large can't use it anyways. Good Luck though. // FrankB 04:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Khotyn fortress[edit]

Hello, can you rename the Category:Khotyn Fortess to Category:Khotyn FortRess? Thanks much! --Boguslav (talk) 00:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

✓  Done Rocket000 (talk) 00:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

An entire movie?[edit]

I would like to upload a feature-length movie that is in the public domain at Commons. The file is, as you'd expect pretty big. Is it recommended to upload it? Can Commons support it? Please answer on my talk page. diego_pmc (talk) 21:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Could I upload it in 14 sections, seven minutes each, and also provide a link to for the full movie? diego_pmc (talk) 06:31, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

translating templates...[edit]

Hi, Rocket. Can you answer me this question: Why do {{description missing}} and {{author missing}} have a /lang subpage? It seems not to be used in {{author missing}}, and that seems to to be the better approach, and the way {{description missing}} should be too. If it is removed from it, perhaps both subpages can be deleted as obsolete (otherwise they confuse people over their purpose) Note however that the +/- link points to it even in Author missing template, which uses lang links directly instead of the /lang subpage. --Waldir talk 08:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

(please reply on my talk) Waldir talk 08:44, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, from the 3 solutions ({{/lang}}, {{lang links}} and {{lang links subst}}), all seem to be imperfect in one way (giving more work to the people) or another (giving more work to the servers). I would prefer giving more work to the servers of course, since they don't complain,but I bet the devs wouldn't like to hear that :P! So, I guess I'm gonna leave the issue untouched. Thanks for the explanation. Waldir talk 20:05, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Geotemplates. Help[edit]

Dear Rocket000,

I'm a silent wikignome, trying to keep a little category (my hometown) tidy, and I wanted to add coordinates to images and pages. After trying to sort out the use for each template in this page I eventually gave up. I understood the difference between ccamera location and object location, but I think that it would be very very useful if someone wrote two-three lines to explain what - where - how. Notice that I'm not an absolute beginner, and my message is addressed also to help newbies. I'd write them myself, but

  • I'm too afraid to write humbugs
  • I'm no English motherlanguage.

As an example, this is almost perfect (lacks a "what id does" section and I have to infer that it is part of an infobox).

Thank you for your kind atention and for any positive feedback. - εΔω 10:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll work on it as soon as I get some time. Rocket000 (talk) 00:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


Image deletion warning Template:Noncommercial has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this image, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
In all cases, please do not take the deletion request personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!

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-- Jeandré, 2008-07-21t10:30z

Attack Cake[edit]

Chocolate cake with white icing.JPG Chocolatefortcake.jpg Atomicfudge1.JPG GermanChocolateCake.jpg
6-te urodziny Wikipedii w Krakowie aa.JPG 5. urodziny polskiej Wikipedii - Wikitort 01.JPG Layered cake with cream.JPG Roberta's WikiCake.jpg
Gateau de bon mariage.jpg Dobos tort.jpg Pound layer cake.jpg Red velvet cake with whipped cream blueberries and strawberries.jpg
The attack cake is NOT a lie. Enjoy. --ShakataGaNai ^_^ 05:46, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

...what? lol Rocket000 (talk) 21:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/Template:Noncommercial.[edit]

I think I misunderstood when I closed this one. Would you mind having a look at it and on the subsequent discussion on my talk page? Perhaps this template needs some tweak so that it refers to 'files' rather than to 'template'? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


Hey Rocket. Thanks for the info and valuable links. I've got a question though: when we use subst for {{welcome}} tag we make the talk page independent from the template. Can't the template be semi-protected, so we could save space by not substituting, or is this the preferred way?

Regarding {{no permission since}}, I use Quick-delete.js in my monobook, and when I click on the language, it automatically adds the tag and the notification to the user in the chosen language. I'll try to tag them in English and add /language to the notifications afterwords.

If you have a chance, could you go over my contributions to suggest some more improvements? Please answer on my talk page. Thanks --Kimse (talk) 05:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Advice on category scheme[edit]

re: Template:2008_Standard_Location_maps I stubbed in "Desirable" category class... but would rather keep up with a string of related edits... instead of diverting to see what the heck the tempate tree looks like right now... which may be under revision still???? So can you figure out whether you've got a category like/for the purpose of the redlinked cat and advise me, or at least point the parent out in your current thinking. There are a number of other maps categories notice templates that should, imho, be grouped together. Thanks // FrankB 23:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks... looks like either of those will do. // FrankB 00:02, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Botched move/Bot[edit]

re: and Category:Locator_maps_for_EU_countries...

  • See the deletion note... Either someone's Bot broke, or he didn't follow through... or whatever. Can you move these, or should I do a category redirect? Mind the category tree... which I can't see. // FrankB 00:27, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I can have my bot fix all those links. Otherwise, a hard redirect would be appropriate here (since it's empty and unlikely to ever be filled unknowingly). Rocket000 (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. Thanks, do so then. I already fixed one see also link to it, which clued me in.
  2. What you guys don't double-dip with a hard redirect and a category redirect? Should be the best of both worlds. // FrankB 00:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


Not sure what to do with this (?)Tracing(???): ... if nothing else, seems that the Registered trademark symbol needs trimmed from the name. // FrankB 02:01, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Meh, it's in use. The name isn't ideal but it works (renaming images is too much of a hassle for something like that). Rocket000 (talk) 02:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
AW Shucks. Hate when that happens! :(
   I also wondered on the copyright... the image quality is awfully poor, so I suspect it's a tracing. The one thing it's got going for it is it shows watercourses... which indicate highlands as well to us mapophiles. Shrug. Thanks anyway. // FrankB 08:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Image:Bruges road.jpg[edit]

I see a ton of these come by on flickreview, but wow, this one is gorgeous. rootology (T) 02:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it. :) Check out The guy has so much good stuff. (Unfortunately, some of the best are non-commercial.) Rocket000 (talk) 02:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I saw! I spent about 25 minutes just going through them. Amazing stuff. rootology (T) 04:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Meant to link this one in particular. I am so lusting for his camera and eye--look at the full size one, and the details of little people stretching for blocks and blocks, especially on the lower left. rootology (T) 04:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Perez case[edit]

Hi Rocket000,
could you eventually take again a look (or activate one of The Four Horsemen admin) at the Perez case that has gone nasty. I've to go to bed. Thanks. --Túrelio (talk) 20:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure, but i think you summed it up perfectly with the first note you left him. Rocket000 (talk) 20:57, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

VI category templates[edit]

Hi Rocket,

Thank you for creating and adding the VI category templates. They look nice and they work well. -- Slaunger (talk) 10:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

About time, huh? ;) Thanks. Rocket000 (talk) 20:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
No problem. I am (mostly) a patient user. -- Slaunger (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Compass mish-mash mess[edit]

One I was adapting... a compass rose modern style
  1. I thought I asked for you to restore this: ... works just fine to edit a category:name... such as the edit I was just interrupted from making to steal the guts while setting up another by language category similarly to another... it's good for galleries too. I rarely remember {{lcs}}, assuming that's the same one, and in this case, was gonna need the "Category:" in a moment any way... sigh. In short why is it disruptive to have a tool you may not use, and can't necessarily predict how and how often others do?

  2. More importantly, see ... because these are all over the place organizationally...I missed the subcat of Compass so my son and I just spent 2 hrs converting and merging (then essentially redoing from that to get the geometry right!) two images (haven't uploaded anything yet--SVG validation failing, so need to consult someone--you know anyone using adobe illustrator on a PC?). Unless "Latin XXX" has some meaning I'm oblivious too, would suggest Bot reorganizing these so:
    1. Compass rose has all the graphics generated compass illustrations, graduated circles like Image:Kompasroos.png, and most of the Latin Compasses and current contents of Compass rose.
    2. Compasses gets images (Photos) of compasses.
    3. Compass just acts to hold the two subcategories
    4. Latin Compasses gets deleted.

What do you think? (Besides me being a pain in the butt, I mean? <g>) // FrankB 02:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC) P.S. What do I do to get Bot priviledges here?

  1. I guess I can restore it, but can we at least change "Article" to "Gallery"? I think there's already a template that does what you're looking for... {{links}}? I believe I made that to complete your series of {{lx}} templates. It matches ones like {{lc}} and {{lim}}. If you want a short ("s") version, and it's not in Internal link templates, then I'll restore {{las}}. Maybe it should be {{lgs}}? (P.S. That reminds me, when creating templates here, please check if there's any ISO 639 language code first to avoid naming conflicts. See Commons:Multilinguality.)
  2. I haven't looked much into it yet but it doesn't sound like a job for a bot. Each image would have to be looked at to see where it goes. I'm not an expert in compasses, so I don't know if the "Latin" part is important, but for now I'll agree with you. I'm pretty good with fixing SVGs but i don't use Illustrator (I can convert .ai to .svg, though). I use Inkscape and Notepad++ on a PC for my vector work. So send it to me in whatever format you got (preferably SVG even if it doesn't render). Rocket000 (talk) 03:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. I'd never seen Lim... save perhaps here in deletion discussions when I didn't notice. {{lc}} looks to be a meta/wikipedia clone though, but it has the extra links I'd never use... logs, for example.
  2. The L series of templates were never mine... I think meta user:Tim! (Who I believe I was told is Tim Starling the developer of our mediawiki software) originated many of them, others did others. I actually learned to program templates from cataloging and studying them to write usage for them and other tools... sort of my six months of templates contributions to at first, just en.wikipedia. My nattering about the usage and questions about why that was in talk pages instead of being readily visible lead directly to the WP:DPP method and the "/doc" pages you are so unfond of. <g> (Blame Tim S, not me... He put the ceiling on template pre-expansion limits—then devised the /doc page technique with CBDunkerson to satisfy my natterings for up front documentation too. Subsequent to that... Well... suffice it to say some others (with nothing better to do, from my point of view) on wikiP took that way too far in my book too, but for high use templates it makes a lot of sense. Running into pre-expansion limits is a pain in the butt! I still have one article set i need to deal with one of these days. New content on the page just suppresses the template effect towards the article end. Not good!
  3. Gallery/Article... Do I look like I care?... namespace zero, gallery, or article... shrug. Would prefer to keep the las, not your lgs... I just plain won't recall that... see the below!
  4. {{Links}} may be a nice template, but the point is who the hell is anyone else to tell other volunteers how to think about things, or better yet what to remember (personally I have trouble remembering a category name I was just in a moment back or five minutes ago! Sucks! One reason I don't code a lot of software anymore, my short term recall isn't all that hot. Need to use something several times before I internalize it and can recall it then at need. And I'm a bright guy... just happens not to be my intellectual strength—more of a learning disability, in truth!) —or what to learn about because a tool has been stolen... a comfortable shoe is an old shoe for it's worn in and familiar... so to speak.
        • My recollection of Links was it needed more typing which is exactly the opposite of what I desire and need.
        • You have no idea of how many typos I make typing a sentence--a lot! (About 12 in that last sentence alone! That's a lot of extra keystrokes when every 4th or fifth is a backspace to fix the last miscue! Me and the tortoise... slow and steady.) My fingers are big and muscular and typing is not something I'm really good at. About every fifth word needs a correction... so short and sweet is good!
        • That particular goody was P's argument for deleting about a dozen templates as I recall on Meta and wikisource. Arrogance in my book... we all have unique backgrounds, minds, and thought processes... what's a few Kbytes to speed others about their tasks? That I feel to my bones, or wouldn't have invested so much time in WP:TSP, which had the primary focus on making those productivity enhancing tools uniformly available across the English sisters. I could never figure out and probably never will figure out the mindset that eliminating something someone found useful and is harmless if unused, is somehow better for the project. THE REALITY is it's better for someone who thinks differently and can't foresee using it themselves, and is annoyed it swells some list of such tools... to which I say GROW THE F**K UP! U ain't me! <g> Ahhh, don't spin me up... it's been a fair night so far! <g>
  5. The notation "Latin this", "Latin that" may have some meaning to someone, but my cat knowledge here until this past month was primarily diffs between the high cat tree structure between en.wp vs. here and of course in detailed knowledge of the Maps schemes, since I helped set that up. I think I've seen one or two other "Latin...." categories somewhere in the past month. So the question really seems to devolve to whether it is a scheme anyone implemented and is maintaining... or perhaps one that sort of fizzled out??? And, if it is a schema, what defines it so others can know what belongs within, and so forth. THATS ALL why I asked you... figured you'd have seen more of those and maybe know what they were about and for. The contents in Latin compasses Ahem... Latin Compasses (Isn't there a naming standard on capitalizations here too?) seems to offer no clues I could discern when I looked at it quick. [Subsequently, discovered someone had removed Latin from the category (correctly), as all the other "Latin name" cats are related to the Latin Language...

well it took forever and about 40 pages (and 20 or so incidental edits) to get back, but... 
I finally figured out the Latin Category thing... took me long enough, but means "Compass roses for the Romance languages", as in "Oust" for "West"... the roses on closer inspection all have O on the left. Left a note on the originators page asking if he'd mind us renaming that one... to Compass rose (Latin languages). SOooo, now let me proof the above... and see if we're done. (Nice knowing a pending edit conflict exists!) Gee... 03:15, 30 July 2008 to 07:52, 30 July 2008 (Guess I'm half-fast, or is that assed?)
  1. I'll see that ISO 639, and need to review the multilinguality anyway. I always check template names aren't in use, but somehow that seems to not be your meaning.
  2. Ahhh, missed the offer on the SVG too... was thinking I'd try flying the Inkscape myself, and we ran across something in that Help:Inkscape that indicates it's preferred output isn't compliant either. Adobe illustrator is likely including meta-data as well, and that might be all that's happening. That help also gave a validation application to use that will catch any errors, but I doubt they're there... Jon's too good with graphics, and made everything with layers and so forth. So I'll keep that in abeyance for a bit, with sincere thanks. (I suspect if he uploads it, it'll work... the strange thing is Adobe illustrator was the thing complaining it was unvalidated and balked at reloading the saved SVG file! Computers!!!)

I think were done... I should get to bed. // FrankB 08:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Divide and conquerrrr[edit]

INTERLEAVING (for speed I hope)

These apply to the first 5 points:
  1. {{li}} was taken.
       I have no idea what that one was...
  2. It makes sense that Tim started the /doc thing, because the old parser use to parse noinclude content when transcluded, this wass fixed back in January when we got the new parser, so it's no longer and issue. The only reason to do so now is for high-use templates to avoid making unnecessary edits (yes, even edits to noinclude stuff will add to the job queue).
  3. Ok, ok... {{las}}. But I made it to match the other lxs templates? If you oppose, I'll do a full restore of your version, but consistency would be nice, right?
       Not sure what you're matching, but as long as the usage is reasonably clear I'm happy. [I'd hoped to "Freeze" things with TSP that worked fine... but t'was a pipedream. Every sister has it's fiddlers.
  4. Don't worry, I'm always willing to compromise and, I admit, I was a little overzealous in deleting your templates. It's just a lot of factors here. For example, many two and three letter template names should be used for language templates here on this multilingual site. There has always been a very strong consensus about this and these templates are same on many many projects. en.wp just has it's own established ways that would be too hard to break and some have found their way here (e.g. will we ever get to change {{tl}} to {{tgl}}?) Another factor, we have no where near the help other projects have. Our template namespace maintenance was nearly non-existent before I took it on as my main area to work on. Having a bunch of templates that don't seem to be of much use (at least to me and going by their usage) makes everything much harder to manage. It's not just the template being there, it's the whole system you tried to bring here, with it's own categories, documentation system, naming conventions, etc. It's a lot to manage one system, let alone getting it to work with another.
       Well, I'd find three letter mnemonics far better enforced across the board. Lot more permutations. e.g. the coding in {{interwikitmp-grp}} & {{Interwikicat-grp}} with the sister names COULDN't have worked with two letters... as it is, Wdy for wiktionary is a bit of a stretch... but mnemomically easy once you think "dictionary".
  5. Like I said... we need more help. Not just with templates, but categories too. Actually, everywhere. :) Yes, we have some conventions, but lack documentation. (English is only part of the story here. We need more translators.)
       Well, Here I stand, and can do no other. Glad to assist any way I can. I've been delooping the cattree, in case you hadn't noticed, and annotating things as clear as I can for purposes. Popping into an oddly named category with no clue to the thought behind it scheme is disconcerting and frequently conterproductive!
This applies to the rest:
  1. I'm working on something to help with this. Maybe even a template to test names?
       If you're trying to test template names in batches, the answer is linked below... Template List is like {{catlist}} for template namespace... not as big, but same principle.
  2. Well, you know where to find me if you ever need some SVG help. Illustrator has a lot of nice features and probably the best live trace program I've ever used, however, it also has the worst code output I've ever seen (the CS2 version, anyway). Inkscape is better, yet still kinda messy. The only way to get nice beautiful code is to do it by hand. (You may actually like writing SVGs.) Metadata causes the majority of problems. Especially doctype declarations. It's best to leave out anything that doesn't affect the image visually. Rocket000 (talk) 09:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
       I expect I'll be taking you up on that... turns out I lost the open edit with the journey finding out about Latin Compasses... Doesn't happen much, but does bite me from time to time. I hate loosing the associations of the old pages though. Wish I could figure out how to expand firefox's cache/que or whatever it keeps to let you go back. IE6 used to keep stuff forever... but if it crashed, wouldn't reconstruct edits, so that feature pays for firefox frustrations alone. Every now and then I balance my laptop on my err, well, lap, and the battery loosens or something and crashes the thing... pain in the butt! Anyhow, looks like the sun's coming up, and I'm going to bed! NOW!!! // FrankB 09:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

ping..., and thanks for the edit conflict... See: w:Template:Template list b4 writing something. // FrankB 09:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC) (Backing up the the rest, now.)

template assistance needed (again)[edit]

I think I am wanting #ifeq to do something it cannot do. I have a situation where the genus name is Lotus but the category is Lotus (Faboideae) and I was trying to make a template that works for {{{genus}}} unless genus = "Lotus" and in that case, substitutes "Lotus (Faboideae)". In my quick scan of the gobblygook that I could determine was documentation for this at media wiki (it is probably well written and it is someplace between my eyes and brain that it becomes gobblygook) is that I am needing perhaps to know more about {{subst}} in a way that means that it might be quicker to ask for help.... -- carol (talk) 05:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

{{subst:}}, which is short for "substitution", replaces a {{template call}} with the actual template (i.e. everything on the template's page that's not inside <noinclude> tags). {{#ifeq:}} works like {{#ifeq:<text 1>|<text 2>|<do if equal>|<do if not equal>}}. So with your specific problem, you would do something like Lotus {{#ifeq:{{{genus}}}|Lotus|(Faboideae)}}. That way "(Faboideae)" will be inserted after "Lotus" if it wasn't included in the first place. Rocket000 (talk) 05:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
OHMIGOD! It is how I thought it would work! *hugs* :) -- carol (talk) 05:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Any time. :) Rocket000 (talk) 05:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


Heh, like now? I think it is a syntax problem. Template:Loteae species the very broken template and the example of the breakage at Category:Lotus alpinus. (Isn't it late in the day where you are?) -- carol (talk) 06:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Nah, it's only 1 am, but I don't stick any normal sleep/wake cycle. :) I'll take a look. Rocket000 (talk) 06:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Beautiful and an example I can grab and expand on! I am having a day where the users here from English Wikipedia Plant Project seem to have a rotating personality and no interest in the software managing the attempt to make a science of the naming of plants -- THANK YOU for being available and still capable consistently for a few months now! -- carol (talk) 06:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
You very welcome. Give me a harder problem next time. ;) Rocket000 (talk) 06:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
I read once a definition of sailing and it was this: "hours of boring and moments of panic". If you can believe this, not all of the help I have asked for and gotten was good! So, my apologies for being hesitant to ask for help and once again, thank you for being quick and good with it. Syntax is boring, it is the logic that I always liked about computers. You have experience here with the boring syntax and I appreciate it more than I could type here about it.
The alphabet soup which has been the science of botany before they started to work with the dna has some interesting challenges. The simplicity of the taxonomy navigation here is kind of appealing compared to the taxonomy box at English wikipedia which really looks good and it is cool how it sets the color and stuff but being able to make the different lists according to which ever tree that is being followed -- that is much easier here and one of the reasons that I have made so many templates instead of trying to make one big all encompassing template. Today, I added a "subgenus" to one of my templates here and got the whole genus into a list which is kind of what the scientists seem to try to do in just a few minutes.
Meanwhile, I scanned an article in a real magazine recently that was about using an interface like this for scientific applications. Some of the early history of botany has the tendency to be quite "gay" and I don't mean "homosexual" because often that can be quite masculine but I mean "gay" like the current cultural expectations of that word (with the exception of a recent subdefinition where I as part of my 20th high school reunion, deemed all of the males who I attended school with who are married now as being "gay" because it is easier to manage that half of a married couple in my mind that way). I am not certain where this paragraph was going, but -- oh! The science of botany and probably all of taxonomy is interesting perhaps to someone who can write stuff that creates lists and shuffles the items in the list around.
Anyways, what do computers do other than make lists of things? -- carol (talk) 06:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Compute. Template logic is my thing, making them look good, not so much. Are you asking for a lesson in template syntax or hinting that you want me to make our templates turn colors and cool things like that? I can definitely make them look gay if you want. :D Rocket000 (talk) 07:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Heh. My homosexual friends actually had really nice interiors and lives in which logic existed in their communications and expectations. Nope, I was kind of more thinking about how to fill you in on my several months of study so what you know could be applied more quickly to what is already a very elegant template that is here. Somewhere in Vonneguts non-fiction was a suggestion that if a person wants to be a writer that studying literature in college was the wrong thing to do. This advice probably applies now for computer stuff.

(indent reset) <-- there is the same information presented in a different way. This website is really nice for this stuff but they only follow one of the taxonomy trees. There is another website for botany which can search by only the species name -- like it presents a search list for all occurances of the word "alpinus". Such a listing has been rendered useless from the ways this science has been abused since it began in 1753.

I am going to leave you with those few ideas and see if you have any thoughts in the next few days about ways to manage this information. It was repetitive to make so many templates, but I couldn't think of a more advantageous way to do it without limiting what it can do -- information-wise. I am going to suggest that this might be a problem with the limitations of my brain and what the software can do. I prefer human phishing for the information even if I phished it 99% from one web site; I often looked at some of the other sites. They conflict sometimes.

Also, have I thanked you yet? -- carol (talk) 07:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. :) I have about a million things I'm working on now and have a couple prior commitments, but I will definitely look into what you've been doing with all these templates and see what we can do better. (Don't worry, I'll probably start on it sooner than I should. For some reason, I like to start things before I finish others. So I never get bored, I guess.) I've been meaning to make my way over to the taxonomy templates anyway. Rocket000 (talk) 07:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Use good judgment for when to start this -- I rather like to have the idea/problem stewing in brains that might have good/workable answers for a while. :) -- carol (talk) 08:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

where on commons?[edit]

Predictable -- after talking to you here about things I started to think of the best ways to automate what I am doing. Where would be the best place to begin to list these things?

Other -- good call on the bot and the {{seecat}} there is some psycho-phraseology whose definition is something like oh, I remember now passive aggressive. Idiot science, but that is what {{seecat}} is here. Sad stuff. -- carol (talk) 19:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Where to list what you want automated? Create a user subpage or on a template/category's talk page somewhere. Not sure what you mean. The {{seecat}} trick is one of my favorites I invented. It's now also used for {{disambig}} (and hard redirects soon). Of course, bots can only follow redirects, they can't disambiguate yet :). Still, it gives us Category:Non-empty disambiguation categories to work with. Anyway, give me an idea of what you're looking to automate. Rocket000 (talk) 02:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
You invented it in 2007? It was used to disemble categories.
What I saw today that could be automated is the creation of the genera categories and the putting templates on them. Category:Galegeae is an example, although not one of the larger examples. I was fairly consistent (at least with this family) to put the list of genera after a ";Included genera:". Everything in that list should get {{Galegeae}} on it (with an empty auth and certainly after it is created). Even empty categories if this is to be useful for creating the lists. Perhaps even a template and category for genera needing photographs/images would be cool and feasible to do at the same while.
In summary:
  1. Create subcategories for genera in the list if none exists and put a {{genera that needs images}} template on it
  2. Paste the template on existing categories -- I think that tidying those categories up after that should be done manually, so maybe a template with a temporary subcategory when that happens or more simply, a comment in the body.
Thanks -- carol (talk) 03:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
No I didn't invent the template itself but the non-empty/broken system (most importantly this little bit of logic).
I think what you listed is entirely possible. The templates are the easy part, getting a bot to understand them is a bit harder. I'll look into how the en.wp page creation bots do it. Even if it comes down to using AWB semi-automatically, it will be much easier than having to go to manually (and with some good regexes, "semi-automatically" is more like supervising). Rocket000 (talk) 03:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I think PAGENAME will help the "bot" for this. Mostly the bot needs to follow the list and strip the [[:Category:<grab this part>|genera]] from the items in the list, make or find the category and paste the template on it. The subcategorization is handled by the template and the PAGENAME and marking the genera where the bots shouldn't work should handle most if not all of the complexity. -- carol (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I just looked at the link to the logic and while I was looking there, I realize that there are a lot of very good uses for seecat which are not gay and I am sorry that I called it that now. The use of it in the area I have been working with has been though -- the (I loathe the pop-psych terminology) "passive aggressive" application of them by people who did things non-communicatively there and the list of people complaining deeply about it at the discussion that I am not going to dig up now. THAT is gay. Other uses for the template are not gay and I apologize.... -- carol (talk) 03:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict)And some additional questions, ideas -- perhaps a request. At one point, I realized that I should probably using that PAGENAME template in my templates for the (for lack of a more descriptive name) the pagename when it occurs in the templates, but I didn't start using it. My reason seems lame now which was "for consistency" and because I didn't completely understand the <includeonly> thingie. Perhaps and automated changing of the existing templates to use PAGENAME is possible? I could go back and find the instances where the genera has an awkward name and mark those so the software will leave them alone.
I still really like having separate templates for each new branch of the tree up to genera -- which is at a different location depending on the plant tree. Wikispecies uses nested templates and I thought those were great to use but I think they lose some usefulness because of that. Now, having said all of that, it is still a feeling and not one that I could put to words exactly why I still like things that way. I mention it now in the case you start to think about it.
An opinion. Please do not take this personally. {{seecat}} <-- GAY! and not the kind of gay that the now married men who I went to high school are either!
In summary:
  1. Automated template changing?
  • Are you interested in doing that
  • How do I mark a template for the bot not to touch it?
  1. Seecat is gay.
-- carol (talk) 03:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC) (both of these get left with a "1", heh)
{{PAGENAME}} isn't a template, it's a MediaWiki defined variable, but that's just semantics I guess. I use PAGENAME almost all the time. It's the best when pages are renamed—you don't have to change the template or even edit the page. Automatic replacement of these are easy. I can tell my "bot" to skip pages based on either a string of text on the page or from a list, whichever is easier. A simple regular expresion might be the easiest way if there's something the "skip" pages all have in common.
Wikispecies' system is interesting but inefficient and a bit tedious, IMO. Still, it's probably the easiest way to generate lists and it's easy to pick up so everyone can make new ones without much of a learning curve. But that's just me. I like machines to do all the boring stuff. :)
In summary:
  1. No problem, just tell me what to search for and what to replace it with and what pages to skip.
  • Yes.
  • Add {{nobots}} anywhere on the page. (But don't do this for a one time only thing, like now. Tell me what to look for instead.)
  1. Seecat is gay but only on the outside. (Compare it to the mess it once was.)
Right now, I'm studying some code trying to figure out how to get to do what I want, so expect my responses to be a little more delayed than normal. Rocket000 (talk) 04:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


Create new categories for genera

  1. Slurp in the list that occurs after ";Included genera:"
  2. Strip everything after the pipe and before the closing brackets from each category in that list
  3. Create the category page with a template that is:
<!-- this category was generated by COMBotBot -->
     {{<name of page list was on>
       | genus = PAGENAME
       | auth =
[[Category:<name of page list was on> genera which need images]]

My gay thing (sorry) -- to avoid problems I passive aggressively started to put galleries into both genera and species categories. (blame Newtons equal and opposite reaction law for this gay thing and not me, please!)

Put galleries into genera and species categories

  1. Slurp gallery name separate into two words <genus> and <species>
  2. Check for categories on gallery, if [[:Category:<genus>]] or [[:Category:<genus> <species>]] isn't there add it or a nicer format would be to strip this from where it occurs, if it does and add to the bottom of the article content
  3. If species category exists, remove {{seecat}} from it. I would say to put a template on the species categories, but some of the galleries have been mis-spelled and other things....
  4. If species category does not exist, I think just leave it. The galleries here occur within a gamut from beautiful perfection to just plain wrong.

I have to make most of the templates still. It took a few minutes to figure out that I will only need to do the "if conditionals" if the category exists and is being used for something else. Also, there are some problems with subgenus the way it has been used in the area I am working at; all of that being said, I think that Category:Cassieae is ready for a trial run, which leads to a question about slurping:

Category:Fabaceae has three subcategories whose appearance there starts with a space. Each of these subcategories leads to a category with a list that starts with ";Included subfamilies:" and each of those leads to a category that starts with ";Included tribes:" and each of those leads to a category that starts with ";Included genera:" <-- which is what we are talking about. Have you any strong feelings for or against slurping internally on that order? -- carol (talk) 05:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's a lot more involved than I thought it would be. I don't mean the work, I mean the "intelligence" my bot is going to need if this will ever be fully automatic... I'll give it a try but I'm not promising I can go beyond semi-automatic or have a easy-to-use finished product to share. Let's see...
These address the second part. First part I can handle.
  1. Slurp gallery name separate into two words <genus> and <species>
    See 2.
  2. Check for categories on gallery, if [[:Category:<genus>]] or [[:Category:<genus> <species>]] isn't there add it or a nicer format would be to strip this from where it occurs, if it does and add to the bottom of the article content
    Any {{#ifexist:}} use in your template(s) that I may be able to utilize? If not, I'll just assign the above <genus> <species>. Moving category tags to their proper place has always been something I have tried to do. I could, but what I got now is so buggy, it's not even worth it. (Don't answer, I'll see for myself.)
  3. If species category exists, remove {{seecat}} from it. I would say to put a template on the species categories, but some of the galleries have been mis-spelled and other things....
    Why would it have a {{seecat}}? Alternate names? I would think category redirects were used for a reason.
    Passive aggressive species subcategory disembling. It is the source of my resentment of that template. When I find one, I can show it to you if you would like. The gallery vs category war -- the recent discussion of this has a list of users pleading with mostly two users to stop doing that. Simply removing the template has a fail-safe, if you prefer to skip the politics and just go with it: if the category had the wrong species name, the gallery should have been moved to the correct name....
  4. If species category does not exist, I think just leave it. The galleries here occur within a gamut from beautiful perfection to just plain wrong.
    Again, #ifexist would come in handy.
  5. Yay, I got these to number correctly!
I'm more or less thinking out loud, give me a little bit to get familiar with your corner of Commons before I rush into this. See what my options are and what's the best way to proceed. Ideally, some of this work can be passed off to templates. Rocket000 (talk) 06:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am having problems grepping this. The templates can just apply themselves if the category exists? -- carol (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
No, but they can apply categories themselves. My goal would be to apply the same thing to each page and have the template do the rest. Rocket000 (talk) 07:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit-conflict with below) Ok, well I made some progress, after I manually created a list of everything after ";Included genera:" (this part will be automated, I just wanted a quick list to work with), I my bot to automatically add the template at the top, regardless of whether or not the page exists and regardless of whether or not it already had one (including in the wrong spot). What I did was simply always replaced the template, even if it's identical (some pointless edits there, but it works and doesn't show up in the history). I got a plan for the rest but I ran into a few problems.

The worst thing that this could do is to remove the "auth" if that was put there but that is so minor.
Ah, forgot about that. No worries, I can easily grab that if it's there. Rocket000 (talk) 08:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  1. What if the category is in a completely different category?
    Those categories should remain there. One instance I saw of this was a genus that was in the category for yellow flowers. I am not touching that one and I suggest that you and your bot don't either.... The subgenus has been a problem -- I think that by its definition it should be easy to know that a whole genus doesn't belong in a subgenus but that kind of thing needs to be manually repaired and my adding the subgenus option to the templates is going towards that....
  2. I'm having issues with appyling [[Category:<name of page list was on> genera which need images]]. I can easily generate the <...> part, but there's no way for me to know if the category's empty. (Some non-existant cats may not need images, so that appyling it to all new category I create won't work either.)
    I have seen on the display for the categories that there is a "+" if there is anything in the category and an "x" if there isn't anything in there. This makes me think that there is something available that determines this from metawiki stuff. That being said, most of the time, if there is a need to make the category then there are no images or galleries for that category. It is not going to be accurate 100% of the time, but often enough to be useful, safe and good. And it is only mostly accurate for the genera categories.
I'm taking break til tomorrow. It's too late to be doing stuff like this. I think I'll go delete stuff. :) But I'll fix your template first. Rocket000 (talk) 07:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks and I would rather not make anyone overly tired with this. :)
And now, a little Nonsense.... I looked quickly at that page at meta wiki and it looked there like "#ifsexist" which made me laugh and also appreciate that it was more complicated than yes or no. While I appreciate this, my answer to that is not that complicated. -- carol (talk) 08:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 :D Rocket000 (talk) 08:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the first thing I need to do is completely redesign {{taxonavigation}}. Rocket000 (talk) 07:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) -- carol (talk) 08:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, well, I didn't know taxonomy was so um... why would something be in five different claves? Isn't it supposed to be a hierarchy? Anyway, I need to rethink this. I guess the current template's not that bad at all under the circumstances. Rocket000 (talk) 14:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

my #if is breaking the template!!![edit]

Can you do that thing where you fix the template and then seem to be bored with the triviality of the repair again? I am beyond my limit with patience with syntax requirements !!!

Template:Myrtaceae species, I added an if thingie there. The template that it uses will not display the subgenus if there is nothing assigned to it. My if breaks that as can be seen in Category:Eucalyptus camaldulensis.... -- carol (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I need to make a whole new {{taxonavigation}} template. That thing sucks. It's way more complicated than it needs to be and doesn't do too much. There's no reason why it can do all the categorizing (including maintenance cats). And what's with the unamed vairables? It should be |Domain=Eukaryota not Domain|Eukaryota|. That's why I had to do the ugly hack on Template:Myrtaceae species. Parser functions love those pipe characters. It screws with templates. Rocket000 (talk) 07:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I have seen and even made worse hacks than that.
When I look at the source for the taxonavigation, for the most part, all I see are curly brackets -- so don't ask me what the deal is. The functionality of it is quite beautiful though. It is very elegant in that it is so simple and shows the navigation element if it is listed and doesn't show it if it isn't. The application of the category is a great idea; what I don't know is if the animal and bug people agree with the plant people and if they agree with the mold and bacteria people about all that. The TOL people wrote their outline of how to handle things in 2005, I think (long before there were 3 million images here) and that was about not having species categories and a lot of discussion since then, warring with seecat templates and species category disembling and that is just in the plant part, many beautiful gallery have been made for species and many a stupid waste of pixels gallery as well. I have no idea what occurs in the animal and bug branches or in the others. To me, if the gallery is an option, then most of the galleries should be beautiful and useful -- I am kind of lazy though and this might be very unusual in a wiki-environment where everyone else is perfect and not lazy (although the stupid useless galleries seem more like people filling a minimum requirement). Probably skin choice as well, and I have no idea if in 2005 the classic skin here had the category so predominately located in the upper right hand corner on the pages.
Back in 1753, some Swede decided to try to classify all living things in an unbiased way. 255 years later, commons.mediawiki has that taxonomy navigation. If you think that navigation template is in bad shape, you should probably not look much at the science that created it. Heh. -- carol (talk) 08:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I wonder if everyone would just settle down and enjoy things if that navigation just started to work by making categories.... -- carol (talk) 08:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I hope so, the biggest complaint I've heard was that species names change so often it's not even worth doing categories since every page needs to be edited instead simply moving a page. If the template did it all, all it would take is one edit to the template to recategorize everything. (However, that's non-issue anyway with bots, especially after the category redirect bot starts running.) Rocket000 (talk) 08:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
You were supposed to be dead here for a while. (There is a quote where someone claimed that sleep was like being dead). But, definitely, things working and not being a problem should make many little problems into non-issues. -- carol (talk) 08:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am confused by the fact that the second mentioned category worked in your hack of the Template:Myrtaceae species. -- carol (talk) 09:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Look where the {{#if:}} ends. Why am I still awake? Rocket000 (talk) 09:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Never mind}} :) -- carol (talk) 09:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

another variable for a new day[edit]

This is about Template:Caesalpinieae and Template:Caesalpinieae species. Right now, one has an if conditional for Tara (Caesalpinioideae) and the other has a conditional for Mora (Caesalpinieae) and they actually need to both have both of those. I admit fully that I did not read any documentation about this and that I probably will read some.

However, if you do fix it and feel bored due to how simple it was for you to repair -- I think that the rest of my day can be summarized with Never put a large frog in an aquarium by this interesting read. I think that in the reinactment, the frog doesn't want to eat the bat or something like that. -- carol (talk) 12:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's what you wanted. Let me know. I'll be working on the new taxo template today. A bull-frog eating a bat is crazy. Rocket000 (talk) 20:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I opted to save the documentation reading for today and it looks like it was the right option. That book... that book is awesome. Written before insurance rules stepped in. One bad experience and a lot of rules for a lot of people who don't need them sometimes happens. There should be a point where that has to stop, in my opinion. Rules/guidelines/suggestions don't stop wrong experiences (I have proof of that on my talk page right now, actually). That book actually provides detailed instructions of many things that I am quite certain that in my life as a klutz would end in other peoples house catching on fire (a kite with a candle!!) and well, wow -- before insurance rules.... The chapter on war kites made me once again, glad not to be a boy as I just plain didn't get it. Homemade aquariums and how to make homemade resin, needless to say, I really love that book. The FCC had a rule about how television characters were not to appear as toys to be sold commerically when I was a kid. I wouldn't mind seeing that rule come back, after I get my five-seater motorcycle and the 5 action figures to go with it though....
I appreciate the attention being spent on the taxonomy navigation, seriously. I have a few families of templates to make fix. I am kind of excited about having a bot to complete this and I apologize that it takes me so long to be certain I understand the content before I can suggest software managing it. I claim it is, in the long run, more advantageous to be sorry at this point than it is to be sorry later for other things.
And now, cleaning the vomit at my place.... -- carol (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for participating[edit]

Purple flowers on Capitol Hill.jpg Thanks for taking part in my RFA. It passed 29-5-0, and I appreciate and will take to heart all of the feedback, and do my absolute best to better Commons with the trust placed in me by the community as a whole. rootology (T) 17:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


My dear template expert and always helpful Commons-buddy,

Would you mind making a sanity check of my proposal at Commons talk:Valued image candidates#Valued image sets.

I have problems with the rendering in the {{VIS-gallery}} template as well... -- Slaunger (talk) 07:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'll take a look. Rocket000 (talk) 10:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


Good day Rocket, thought you might wanted to help me with the bot stuff and all. AWB and that kind of stuff. If you have time, regards --KanonBot (talk) 10:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I had computer problems all day today, so I got some catching up to do. :) Rocket000 (talk) 10:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
No problem, but isn't it a lot of bot scripts out there? I'm trying to find some scripts now. --KanonBot (talk) 10:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Kanonkas, please edit with your account (not your bot's) if you're not making edits your bot was approved for. =\ —Giggy 10:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was just going to say that. What are you looking for? Rocket000 (talk) 10:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
That's been the question for long time, what does RocketBot do? To answer Giggy, unless you want to approve a bot without test edits, then do that but I doubt that is going to happend on the requests section when I haven't even tested this bot. Or should I request it then test it? For me that just sounds weird too. --Kanonkas(talk) 10:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but if you use it to make normal edits, it's not really a bot, it's more of a (disclosed) sockpuppet. :) Anyway, I use RocketBot to do many different things. Mostly boring things, but that's what bots do. Check out Special:Contributions/RocketBot to get an idea. Rocket000 (talk) 10:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh sorry for that part, didn't mean to use it as a "sock" just was to lazy to log out, next time I'll log out instead. I see, last time I wanted a bot that was tagging images for no source, license, etc, I thought maybe we can try it this time too, is that possible with AWB? --Kanonkas(talk) 10:59, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it can. You're going need a way to watch the recent changes, a function not included with AWB. Never did it myself, so I'm sure what's best. I know there's an easy way to do it through IRC. (Something like this may help.) I don't know. You need to have a very specific task you want to do, some idea how to do it, and then it's all trial and error. That's what I do. Start off small, do some simple find and replace jobs, and build on it from there. Rocket000 (talk) 11:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I believe I need to know programming for that, I just got blocked by ShakataGaNai, I didn't like that at all and it was just a joke. See my block log. --Kanonkas(talk) 17:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe a little. Some things you can just pick up on. Like you were with Twinkle. I wish I can give you more advice, but type of bot you want to run is not something I have much experience with. Ha. You got blocked. :) Rocket000 (talk) 17:39, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
No clean block log aw, not so sound like a fun breaker but I saw it just mean to block me like that for fun. Well I don't have much experience with AWB, and you don't know how to put the recent changes. Do you know anybody who can do it? --Kanonkas(talk) 17:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Meh, mine's not clean either. I would to say you'd have better luck finding bot help on en.wp. There's lots of bot runners there. Practice with AWB. It's not hard at all. Rocket000 (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is allowed[edit]

It appears as this image, image:Nwo23463.jpg, the author created is just a copy of the nWo logo. I'm new to commons so I'm unsure of what to do. Darth Mike (talk) 10:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I deleted it. In the future, you can tag obvious copyvios like this with {{copyvio}}. Rocket000 (talk) 10:17, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

broken templates[edit]

I started having broken template problems even when for the life of me it seemed I was doing the same thing which worked other places. I started to make a list of them so that I only bother the template experts occasionally.

templates and bots who work in categories pasting templates[edit]

You are good with bots and great with templates (if I am following the invention and innovation here correctly and please correct this if I am wrong) and MultiChill is good with bots that work within categories and paste templates. To me, if I can get MultiChill to write the bot that pastes templates that you made work efficiently and elegantly, that at least "my little corner" of commons will be awesome in both appearance and functionality.

My question, how viable is this and where would be the place for a collaboration like this if it is viable? -- carol (talk) 19:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct. MultiChill's a much more apt bot builder. An I tend to focus on the template side of things. Where would be the place for this collaboration? Not sure. Maybe just start a subpage for now, outlining what you'd like to see. Then invite us both there to comment on how we're going to do it. Rocket000 (talk) 00:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I have asked User:Dschwen to look in on this also -- an experienced wikicommons user who has recently expressed an interest in python. Right now, I put all the stuff from here and refined it some at COMBotBot and have no idea where to categorize that at or move it or what the hell to do with it. -- carol (talk) 00:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Is there a howto for howto invite a person who is already "in on it"? -- carol (talk) 00:45, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Howto: Go to their talk page. Give them the link. Rocket000 (talk) 00:59, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I called my own passive aggressive behavior "gaily" and got blocked at the discussion of the terminology to use. Asking for a terminology since all I can think when I see the seecats being pasted in my watchlist is GAYBot is working.... Does that block mean that it is okay to call it gay or not? -- carol (talk) 00:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Oversensitivity is gay. Rocket000 (talk) 00:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It is! And none of the real hackers I have worked with are that way. I don't really want to waste time protecting the egos or sensitivity of people who could not actually have contributed anyways. I reviewed Batman at Dschwens talk page. There was a scene in it where there was fund raising going on. It was pretty good and if I remember correctly, none of the contributors were hurt physically. There have been some really really good superhero style movies recently and that is definitely definitely one of them, this years Batman. -- carol (talk) 01:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The Dark Knight is one of the best movies we have had in a very long long time. Rocket000 (talk) 01:25, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I am personally so glad that there is some acknowledgement that the audience has an intelligence. -- carol (talk) 01:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Overuse of #ifeq?[edit]

I was trying to get only the tribes (the ">" sorted categories) that were included in the antiquated system to appear in the category (Category:Asteraceae where the newer systems branch into subfamilies (the " " sorted categories). This attempt was attempted at Template:Asteroideae and the timing of the breakage was unfortunate for my ability to debug things. One thing, reverting back to when it was working did not cause it to work again. This is one way that the timing made it difficult for me to think that I had done something wrong, syntax or logic-wise and the lack of logic (where reverting did not restore the functionality) caused me to keep adding if statements consistently.

Me and my not good for debugging brain/situation left that template there with the idea that it could be looked at by a clearer brain who was also not so edgy with these other controversial problems would look at it.

I did read that there was a limit on how many ifs wikimedia allowed, but this was broken when it had been working with only two ifeq used.

Do you have a not so turmoiled brain that I can pick? -- carol (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Picking up the pieces[edit]

I am trying to get back to the problems I was having before I went to that movie. It is difficult, I have additional problems when the natural language becomes a problem, obviously.

So, in the attempt to reconstruct the little template problems I was having before the great big story and visual entered mepeabrain: I have a situation where I am going to need to nest that "ugly hack" you did, but that hack is no longer working for me. Template:Asteraceae should show three instances of the navigation on every category with the exception of Category:Wunderlichioideae and in that category, it is not showing the third category, but it is also not showing it in the category for Category:Carduoideae where it should be showing.

Once and if that works, I am going to need to (I think) nest it because for the one system, they don't use subfamilies but they do use tribes (next in the tree). The software is cool because when it is working, commons does not have to make a choice about which system to use and instead will show them all. It is more inline with what is supposed to happen here, I think. -- carol (talk) 02:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Did I do it right? Rocket000 (talk) 02:50, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes yes! And much more elegantly than what I was trying to do did! I now need to take Cronquist off from there and do stuff to all of the tribe templates. It is going to be beautiful when it is finished.
Thanks! -- carol (talk) 02:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Now I am looking at it and very disoriented. It has the appearance of doing the opposite of what it says it is. The syntax {{#ifeq:{{{subfamily}}}|Wunderlichioideae||... and I just saw the double pipe, nevermind.
Except that I kind of not of the mind to become a template expert at your level now :)
-- carol (talk) 03:08, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
When making the templates you're making, the three most important functions to know are {{#if:}}, {{#ifeq:}}, and {{#switch:}} (which are also the 3 easiest to understand). Many times, the same thing can be accomplished using any one of these, but usually, there's one that does it best. Just like with any type of programing, don't get caught up on the syntax; the logic behind it is the important part. Write it out in a way that makes sense to you, then translate into MediaWiki's syntax. Pseudo-code. I'll start adding more comments inside the templates. That will help. Rocket000 (talk) 03:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
The example has done a lot. Is there an example of switch? I had a problem with subversion and switch, btw. -- carol (talk) 03:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, click on the link to see how it works. For a very simple example see {{namespace}} (not be confused with the variable {{NAMESPACE}}. Rocket000 (talk) 03:36, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to butt in here, but have you at all considered how the taxotemplates are made at Wikispecies? See, species:Template:Asteraceae for example. If you disregard the minimalistic formatting implemented in the template for a moment, I kind of like the philosophy that it is contructed by transcluding in the higher order taxa species:Template:Asterales. What is very neat about this that you completely avoid having redundant information as the name "Asterales" is only maintained in one place and not copied all over the place. Could a similar scheme be used for the taxonavigation templates here to avoid all the redundant copying around? Perhaps one temåplate chain per naming scheme and then a template holder per taxa instance gluing it all together. One thing I have learhed in my professional career is by all means: avoid redundant data. -- Slaunger (talk) 06:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Okay, first of all, I only read the summary which was "have you considered the way wikispecies makes templates" or something like this. Yes, I did consider it, made a few and edited one. The nesting is interesting but I think in the long run cumbersome. To edit one mispelled something or other I had to edit a bunch of them. I have a template thing going where I need to edit several sometimes also, but that is my mistakes in understanding the higher parts of the different trees and I expected it. With the way I am doing this, if a genus is moved from one family to another, only one template needs to be edited. If the species moves from one family to another, just the category needs to be edited and/or the gallery if they ever opt to use these templates.
That was wrong, btw, the stricken text. The genus and the species categories will need to have the templates changed to the new family. -- carol (talk) 08:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
It is redundant templates, kind of, not redundant data. The templates are not redundant and I have found instances where the tribe and the genera were included in APG II but not in Strasburger and some tribes that are in Strasburger and APG II but not in Croquist. Do you know what will be the APGIII tree? I suspect that wikispecies will have a difficult time with that unless it is exactly the same as APGII due to how the templates have been nested.
No data is redundant so far. In many ways, none of the templates are either. Asteraceae, some of the subfamilies have tribes, some don't. It is an edit friendly system.
My question to you is this: do you know where to put Category:Species needing images so that photographers can find it? -- carol (talk) 06:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
I had a bot search a category for instances of one particular string and replace it with another; so the same thing can be done in a category of templates. The perception of redundancy should be no problem if I can get the software writers interested in this and the initial templates to be perfect. I edited one template today and about twenty entries showed up in a category -- snap, just like that! Both the genus and the species are managed by the next higher in the tree, it is the most flexible it can be that way. Rocket keeps pointing out that software can do a lot more than people seem to understand here. I understand that and I understand how what is there needs to be consistent for the software to work and flexible because the "science" is fluid. -- carol (talk) 07:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I have considered something similar, at least for the higher taxons. The three main issues I see with that: It will take a lot of new templates, many of which will have very limited use (especially if we go all the way to genera). We have more than one classification system. There are too many inconsistencies to make it as streamlined as it sounds. We would either need multiple templates for the exceptions (as carol pointed out) or define parameters to deal with them, which puts us back where we started.
I know there's a better way out there. I'm just waiting for it to hit me. Rocket000 (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Respectful question, honestly. Is that last sentence a little sarcastic? (the implication is that you already know how to do this? -- carol (talk) 08:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
No, I really don't know what to do. Rocket000 (talk) 08:05, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Damn, I would have enjoyed sarcasm along with the simple solution :) -- carol (talk) 08:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Once the templates are made though, what can be done with them is going to be awesome. Asteraceae is the largest family of plants species wise and I should have those templates done soonish, to the species (templates) and the bot can add the templates to the categories. Both the genera and the species templates are operated by the name of the next up in the tree, so it is not as bad as it seems. The task here was/is to paste the taxonomy navigation template on each category. This is an improvement already. -- carol (talk) 07:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete image[edit]

I mistakenly uploaded an image Image:Ancient chinese lesbian.jpg from Flickr mistakenly thought it is Chinese. But there are concerns it may be fake image. After discussing this matter in wikipedia, I want to delete the image. --Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:06, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

✓  Done . Rocket000 (talk) 08:11, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(no heading)[edit]

Sorry for the tears... ping // FrankB 20:44, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Btw, your disambig category above gave me the idea for this... what do you think about SVG_marker_templates and should that have been a commons: prefixed page, as I (now belatedly) think?
Having some of these resource pages viewable from categories should help make the learning curve here less steep, catch redundancies, help show up duplicates, overcatting, and make the site more user friendly to get around.

Or so I think. // FrankB 20:51, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. And useful. Thanks for making it. I'll move it to the Commons namespace. Rocket000 (talk) 03:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

An aversion to software?[edit]

Category:Acourtia runcinata I just wanted to leave this here to show what kind of thing has been going on. Either there is no understanding that putting the category onto the gallery naturally includes it into the category page or it was a reaction to having the categories constantly disembled or it was a software upload that did this or something else.

When I wrote in the instructions for COMBotBot to erase all text that was there, it was this kind of thing I was thinking about. -- carol (talk) 23:40, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I always had an issue with that too. I guess they figure it's easier to find if it's in a higher up category. Rocket000 (talk) 03:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
And that starts to look like software that removes redundant categories like I have been using.... -- carol (talk) 06:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I am going to "read the signs" that I see at the different instances of taxonomy at the different wiki and suggest that your humble beginnings at COMBotBot talk are what is going to make you very good at this. All of the other wikis have decided upon on a single system to use and that starts to become political. To me, the challenge here is to show all of the systems and cause them all to work here and that becomes more scientific and more interesting and more globally useful. I did not study this formally; so I am sharing with you what I have considered to be my strength for attempting it -- no bias and no previous familiarity with one system or another no desire or opinion that one system works or is better than the other.
In summary, too humble but the cause of that is what makes you good for the task. -- carol (talk) 06:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, once I finish up some of my other lingering tasks I'll start dedicating most my time to this. Rocket000 (talk) 07:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

a case for {{#switch:}}?[edit] <-- subfamily Category:Stifftioideae

There are two things in that list. The first item in that list is a tribe and the second item is a genus.

I would like to make the template work for both cases with the correct variable name for what the next subcategory is (tribe or genus). I think that this situation exceeds my ability and I am thinking it might be a case for switch.

I put both of the templates into Template:Stifftioideae if you are interested in looking at it and have the time. -- carol (talk) 06:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you're right that a switch is what you want, but can you clarify exactly what you make Template:Stifftioideae do. There's no broken code for me to see what you were trying to do. :) Rocket000 (talk) 07:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Heh. If the template gets the tribe variable, one set of the navigation needs to be displayed; if the template gets the genus variable then the other set needs to be displayed. -- carol (talk) 07:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Duh. Too simple. There is embarrassment floating with the gratitude. -- carol (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't sure if you wanted the genus to have to be explicitly defined as well, instead of simply the result of tribe= not being there. If you do, then you want {{#if:{{{tribe|}}}|<!-- then do this -->|<!-- else check for genus= -->{{#if:{{{genus|}}}|<!-- then do this -->|<!-- else do this (nothing?) -->}}}}. A switch mainly works with only one parameter and depending on the value given to that parameter the switch will tell it what to do. So if you have two named parameters (tribe and genus) some #if's would work better. Now if the parameter was unnamed, let's say {{{1}}}, then a switch would look like {{#switch:{{{1}}}|tribe=something|genus=something else|#default=if neither case is true}}, but in order for that to work correctly, the template would have to used like so: {{template|tribe|... (which is the same as {{template|1=tribe|....
In summary, #ifs look for the existence of parameters, #switchs and #ifeqs check the value of those parameters. A #switch is like a giant #ifeq that can test multiple cases (until it finds a match) and do something different for each one. Rocket000 (talk) 08:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
"Until it finds a match". That was the problem with using this to eliminate the non-Cronquist tribes from being subcategorized in Category:Asteraceae. Todays lesson makes much more sense now. -- carol (talk) 23:40, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Todays lesson made it seem very appealing, however, that tribe should not be associated at all with a genus that doesn't have one. This is a simple case and I might find a case where there are several genus and several tribes in a subfamily (or the equivalent up this tree....) I am going to make the species pages for the genus without the tribe and perhaps this one should go into an ignore list for the bot and probably put something on the talk page for the category (with the expectation I will be able to understand it in a few weeks again).  :) carol (talk) 08:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you speak java script?[edit]

Made a request to Santa on the WP:VPT the other day for a toggle facility to more or less turn a category pages image displays "OFF" or "ON" (i.e. emulate or toggle on/off __NOGALLERY__ and I got this script back: User:Fabartus/monobook.js‎ ... sans instructions as to how to toggle it. Have any clue? When you have a moment, been lobbying against junk this morning and will be following up with a post to cut junk image inflow... mainly to the wiki's, but should spill over here too in a good way: here and also some advertising: pitch! here (I'm not quoting you in that, but the count is from a Deletion discussion comment here from you! brb-if you be around // FrankB 23:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that great sales pitch! I hope it helps. What exactly is priority translator needs, I don't know. Do you think it would help to a list of pages in need of translating/updating translations. We do this with Commons:Message templates/todo-big, but there's also many project pages (policy, guideline, wikiproject, help pages) way over due for some translations. The only problem is that these change more often than message templates. For example, we are about to replace our entire COM:SCOPE page with a new one. Asking for translations that may become outdated after a month is not very motivating. Of course, there's also many gallery/category pages that lack translations. That's probably where I would focus our internationalizing efforts right now.
I'll take a look at the script. Rocket000 (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey, it works for me! Do get a link at bottom of your toolbox? The only thing is I can only toggle the gallery off (i.e. toggle __NOGALLERY__ on) then the link disappears. It only appears if there's images in the category, BTW. Rocket000 (talk) 09:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Need a Bot move, two parts, part name conventions, part a stale (old, old) merge proposal (No discussion I know where to find.):
  1. Maps in Category:Historic states to Category:Maps of former countries
  2. Cats from Same to Category:Former countries... or I can clean that up manually after... I'll see which maps I can park as soon as I back out of an edit or three in progress.
  3. I'd add a hard redirect in front of the cat redirect to catch any leakers... the names are different enough someone might use it again.
  • Guess you and I are off cycle... can't seem to catch you these last few days... // FrankB 23:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'm working on it.
I'd add a hard redirect in front of the cat redirect to catch any leakers This doesn't work... I tried after you mentioned it earlier. The redirect bot ignores the category if it's hard redirected. :( Rocket000 (talk) 09:07, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
✓  Done Images to Category:Maps of former countries. Categories to Category:Former countries. Rocket000 (talk) 09:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

xpost: Template documentation Ping

FUNNY! I was just changing out of "funeral clothes" and thinking I needed to get a handle on these/those... (See discourse below on diffs [my page] of categorization ideas on Location vs. much larger body of locator maps...
    Anywho... err how... SURE. (really just letting you know I'm "Just In").
On the script... what's a tool box? So don't know... I've rather paranoid about using tech I know nothing about so NOT experienced at all, at all with scripts...
    1st (Cherry) trial... loaded whatever to BOT move images here... that updated and created my monobook.js on wikipedia... somewhen the last two weeks.
    2nd... tried some 'popups tool' on wikipedia (very briefly) yesterday I'd stumbled over... that acts automatically on a link and has drop down options one grabs with the mouse... so "INTUTITIVE" once you see the drop down menus embedded in the popup. It also had a formal wikipedia help page and a edit protected source script, so I said what the hell...
    So... figure I be same fourteen y.o. girl who liked sex once and this one is coming across as first "premature experience"...
    IIRC/understood correctly, He opined he thought he'd fixed the Toggle Off... Search my signature in Posts on w:WP:VPT and his name on my talk there, my query back to him on his talk... (he answered on the VPT)... then you'll know more than me.
    I'm clueless. I do hardware and firmware and occasional C/C# or assembler... not CS/IT/browser techs. [Don't even load "plugins" unless feeling insane that day. Actually need to rethink that too... on my desktop, before my last mozilla upgrade, was able to text search into the edit window... that no longer works which is a real handicap on wikipedia.]

Anyhow, I'm in... and I'll recheck to see and report what I DO see... things did appear different. OK... found it... that's a tool box Huh... Hmmmm, OK. Tried Maps of Bolivia and went off... nothing to turn back on shows up, right? Trying Maps of United States HUH! Maps of New York... -> Maps of Bolivia (maps 'back') --> "Off"... Same... [F5]... maps reappear... Actually not what I wanted but will be of limited use.
   My "Vision/wish" (not really specified this way) was for toggle off so could go cat to cat and not have to wait for thumbnails to load... This is useful locally too though. I'll thank him and report success, and ask if the other mode would be possible too. Handling the ability to retoggle it should be incorporated. [Is there a "Goodies" page(s) here? Someplace to list stuff like this? // 16:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's see... we have Commons:Tools (which needs updating) and Category:User scripts and Category:Gadget scripts (the difference being gadgets are more stable/tested and can be turned on/off in your preferences). If we get it where the toggle button doesn't disappear or where it stays on, I think I'll add it as a user script. I think others might find it useful. It can help speed up our maintenance tasks if we aren't interesting in seeing the images. (I just called it a toolbox because that's what it says above it.)
And thanks for helping with the geocoding documentation. I really appreciate it. It's foreign territory to me (and that's rare when it comes to templates!) Rocket000 (talk) 17:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Well spotted! (Saw that too when tested... so guess that's what the CS guys call it!)
Looks like the right kind of goodies... thanks
This! is shaping up nicely I think. While of no direct immediate benefit, may in the 'midterm' free up image specialists to participate more here per my Sales pitch ... or at least in getting images that are transfered categorized properly when they initiate such changes!. Gotta finish talk-talks... then may be back. (complicated day... may have to run down the road in two different directions too! Also need to mow grass. Got rained out the other day.)
second opinion...

Oh, btw, {{Wikimacro usage}} has some mal-forming links interlingually speaking to known wikiversity web pages... (about half way down the includeonly help part... there are three side by side with "←→") what am I doing wrong with the lang and interwiki ("namespace" issue, I'm pretty sure.) formation? I "THINK" just need to add wikiversity: as the namespace prefix... ala w:wikipedia:Wikipedia Templates, or commons:Commons categories etc. which would suggest a "ns" parameter might be a useful addition. // gotta run one direction FrankB 19:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Question from an onlooker who is considering if it is good or not to re-interrupt here. How do you get "FrankB" from "Fabartus"? -- carol (talk) 20:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

beginning of an outline for functionality requests[edit]

I think that I need to make a template for "what categories" and add that to the templates. To really function well, it would be nice if a value can be assigned from within the template text, like family and the value obtained from within where the template says "familia|get this string".

MultiChill was able to search all of the images within a category and replace a string on the image page within the information template. I am pretty sure that a new category could have been added to the image page at the same time and perhaps could have written that had I had access to the script that did that....

Now, from those two thoughts, my goal is to make the categories that are added to the templates editable and also editable depending on other values, like "familia" or "subtribe", etc. Perhaps just one template for that, perhaps one per family whichever is more workable.

The plant navigation templates are consistent in that directory right now in that the last two for any tree appear alphabetically. I thought I would mention that now since this is about working with templates that manage the different points along the trees.

  1. Can a value be gleaned from a templates contents?
  2. Search and replace strings that are located within a section....

Eh, thats it. Looks too simplistic ennumerated like that for what is in my mind though.... -- carol (talk) 20:37, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I just thought through it a little more and this can all be done during the string search and replacing. -- carol (talk) 21:04, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever tried AWB? Search and replace is what it does best. It's really easy to use.
So you want a template that will categorize based on what value a certain parameter has (either entered by the user directly, like they are now, or taken from a variable like {{PAGENAME}}? Maybe take a look at some of the templates I made, such as {{translated tag}} which has a nice categorizing system all done by one template with lots of room to expand. I made it so each language can categorize their translations however they want (for navigation) while it also categorizes into maintenance and tracking categories. For example, here's a simple setup for ja's localized cats: {{translated tag/local category-ja}}. All languages can create one and it will be applied whenever the template recognizes it's on one of their templates. Now instead of translations of templates, imagine that they are families or plants. Sure, it takes some work to setup, but the best part is it only has one parameter and once you have it on all the pages, all categorizing will be centralized. That's the key. I also have templates like {{template redirect}} where there's a little forward compatibility, i.e. I insert things into that do nothing so in case I ever want to use them, they're already in place. This is a good way to go about things when the whole picture isn't clear yet. Rocket000 (talk) 00:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Right now I have 136 templates and the ones that have "species" in the name I want to replace "[[:Category:{{genus}} {{species}}]]" with a template that does the same thing but also embeds the family name (which is found while the software is making the changes to the template) into the species template so maybe the string would be {{species category|FAMILY}}. The idea here is that the template that makes the categories could be easily edited to make a new category for [[:Category:FAMILY species]] which is also not an unusual list to be made for management of this kind of database. -- carol (talk) 00:24, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Editable categorization[edit]

Template:Genus categorization and Template:Species categorization and the trial run was in Template:Millerieae and Template:Millerieae species which are "functioning" at Category:Tridax and at Category:Tridax procumbens. The nesting of the ifs was easy but is painful to look at, in my opinion.

Since you suggested AWB, do you know of any linux users who have the privileges needed to author scripts here? -- carol (talk) 03:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

No I don't, unfortunately. I forgot AWB only works on Windows.
Anyway, it's good you made those templates, now I have a better idea what you want. One thing, when using #if, do {{{1|}}} instead of {{{1}}}, otherwise it will act like {{{1}}} exists even if you don't use it. For example:
{{#if:{{{1}}}|1|0}} → 1
{{#if:{{{1|}}}|1|0}} → 0
Rocket000 (talk) 04:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Awesome, great suggestion. Not printed here was me ranting about .NET (it starts to get really personal there!)! -- carol (talk) 06:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
See where I'm going with this: User:Rocket000/PlantCategorizer. Rocket000 (talk) 06:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
"Subgenus: gobbly gook" lol. Rocket000 (talk) 06:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Heh, if you ever want to have a commons discourse about whether gobbly gook should be there or not -- first, stop being easy to ask questions from!
I looked at the PlantCategorizer, quickly so I did not get disoriented or start to see things or worse and I think what I saw was that you are working out the larger logic for (perhaps) the taxonomy navigation as I encounter problems with the "stack" and ask them here. Is that what I saw? -- carol (talk) 06:40, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, theoretically I can keep going with it so it can be used to categorize the whole tree of life and be implemented directly into the taxonavigation template, but I'm trying it on a smaller (family) scale for now just to see if it's even practical before I write a lot more {{{}{}{}{{{}}}{{}}}}{}}}} crap. Rocket000 (talk) 06:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I am inspired to look into the orchids now. They may not be the problem I think they might but it does seem to have the potential that it is an area where cultivation and science overlap a lot.... -- carol (talk) 07:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Admin questions 3.0[edit]

Good day, see User talk:XxJoshuaxX, and User talk: I don't want to decline those, would be better if someone else did. Just incase. --Kanonkas(talk) 09:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, got one.. Herby beat me to the other. Rocket000 (talk) 09:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
I asked for the background on the CU list. --Herby talk thyme 09:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Figured as much. The IP was easier, that's why I did that one first. Rocket000 (talk) 10:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I just have to show you this, warning it includes dolphins for some reason. --Kanonkas(talk) 20:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
check the link, thought you might want to see that. --Kanonkas(talk) 17:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Interstate 105 (Oregon) old.svg[edit]

Why did you delete this file, and what you mean by "a mess"? I just closed the request with light blue background, since it was deleted by User:Fanghong. What happened to Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Interstate 105 (Oregon).svg?--Freewayguy Call? Fish 18:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I just reused the old DR, so I don't have to go through pain in the work putting green tags, Rewrite the new ones when its just duplicate. All I have to do, reusing the old ones is just to change the image and sigs. Do i always use {{Duplicate}} this blue tag for scale-down duplicated images?--Freewayguy Call? Fish 18:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, please don't "reuse" DRs. Start a new one for each image. Simply hit "Nominate for deletion" in your sidebar. It makes things a lot easier. {{duplicate}} is only for exact or scaled down duplicates, not ones that look similar. Rocket000 ( ) 18:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

So for similar images but not 100% scale-down I just click toolbar, the newest is on top or on bottom? When I do this I don't have to add to the log by adding green box on DR, because it is already on the log?--Freewayguy Call? Fish 19:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Becasue when image is close but not exactly, other users besdies nominators can either Symbol keep vote.svg Keep or Symbol delete vote.svg Delete. --Freewayguy Call? Fish 19:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes it will do it for you (they go at the bottom). There's nothing wrong with nominating an image you think we don't need anymore, it's just that we can't speedy delete them unless they are exact. Nominating them for regular deletion allows for others to give their input too so we make sure no one wants it anymore. Rocket000 ( ) 19:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


Unprotection? You removed {{protected template}}, but the template itself is still protected. Was this your intention? Please respond on my talk at your convenience. Koavf (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Bot accidents[edit]

Hello Rocket! I've just found your bot(RocketBot) made accidents.[2],[3],[4]. Please comment about them. Best regards.--Kwj2772 Disc. kowiki. 00:07, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I am going to comment (probably not instead but until Rocket sees this). That is some really funny stuff! Perhaps the surprise of the user this happened to is not finding it to be so funny, but in a few days or after it is repaired, perhaps there will be a smile there also? User templates seemed like a vulnerability to me. This was not exactly an example of a vulnerability being abused though, is it? "Accident" is a good word for it. "Funny accident" is more descriptive.... -- carol (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Wow... I have no idea what made him do that. I'm thinking it has a regex use to fix templates when people accidentally use translations instead of the actual template (e.g. {{template/en}}) that I forgot to turn off. I'll review the other contribs and make sure everything's ok. That's what I get for trying to do a million things at once. :) Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention. Rocket000 (talk) 09:11, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

RfA thanks[edit]


Exactly how long does it take to delete image like this with {{Duplicate}}?Becasue usually, when I see image with blue tag, it disappears within less than 12 hours.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 17:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It depends how much it's used and how fast CommonsDelinker can replace the uses but usually not very long. Rocket000 (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
What's a CommonDelinker? Is it a bot operate by somebody to replace iamges. I would like bot to replace images name so I don't have to drive through every pages and replace images.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 18:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it runs automatically and Commons admins can use it to make replacements. This is usually how it done before deleting any image in use. Rocket000 (talk) 18:03, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I-X (NY).svg[edit]

Rocket, I ran through check-usage, and replaced all I-X (NY).svg with I-X (long).svg, all put blue tag on old I-X (NY).svg. I will like it if you take a look at it. I guess it should be deelted now.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 20:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. You may want to double check some. I saw one that had different numbers. Rocket000 (talk) 20:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
What else to double check. I found one, I accidentally put blue tag, when i don't know what the heck is wrong with my mind.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 21:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I triple checked. It seems fin, but DO NOT delete I-790 (long) becasue its my clueless mindless mistake. Everything else seems fine. Keep I-587 (NY) still, i-587 long has not exist yet. Thanks for reminding me anyways, otherwise we would be deleting one mistakenly.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 21:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Any ohters to double-check?--Freewayguy Call? Fish 21:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
No, that's ok. I'll be double checking them before I delete them. Rocket000 (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I got most of them. Some are still in use on couple wikis, CommonsDelinker is working on it. They'll be deleted soon. Rocket000 (talk) 22:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
I got all of it clear out from zh wiki-I-478, I-88, i-87, I-287, few is just used on w:USRD/S/R archeive, and one is only used on my talkpage.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 22:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
It can be elft on task force page, talk page, userspace. it just needs to be clear out from articles from all language. They can be delete now. I checked again and again. Its not use on any Wiki articles, except talk page and old project page.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 23:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but if there's replacements we should let CommonDelinker replace them because it will have to delink them anyway after they are deleted. Rocket000 (talk) 23:16, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
When will we delete them?And who will be the person to deelte it, since you say soon. Those are no longer used on any pages now.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 23:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
✓  Done They're all gone. Rocket000 (talk) 23:47, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

{{Rename media}}[edit]

Just a heads up if your going to move a template that a bot uses its normally common curtsy to let the botop know so it doesnt break things. Betacommand 01:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't know. :( That was awhile ago by request and redirect was left in place, so why all of a sudden is there a problem? Rocket000 (talk) 01:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
I just restarted the rename bot and there where some issues with it using a different template than expected. Betacommand 13:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Sorry again. Rocket000(talk) 04:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Image:Interstate X (New York).svg[edit]

It's about time to delete them all. They are repetitve to another one, and no longer used on any pages.--Freewayguy Call? Fish 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, those are done too. Rocket000 (talk) 03:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

global template problem[edit]

I'm back!

This is something that has bothered me since I made the templates that manage the categorization of the taxonomy categories. The same problems with the genus that shares its name with either something from the animal kingdom or something that is not a genus or a taxonomy name.

They are all going to need to be special cased in those templates, I think. What a pain. I wonder if I should start to make a category (this one can be hidden) of painfully named genus? -- carol (talk) 06:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking there were some like that. We're going to have to make exceptions anyway for navigation; just to get the links pointing to the right spot. We'll treat the disambiguated name as if it were the real one and anytime it needs to be displayed we'll write in an option where it can be pipeticked. Rocket000 (talk) 06:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It really is an interesting dataset problem, isn't it? The sites which are dedicated to taxonomy do not have to worry about cities and other things which share the same name. I keep thinking that if this can eventually work, that it will be a very impressive example of logic and database management with nothing else like it. -- carol (talk) 07:20, 8 August 2008 (UTC) I was thinking about the previous questions about "redundant data". The templates, once they are working correctly and display the correct information and also manage the name problems correctly, if the science people change the name or the family (or whatever) those images and those subcateogories will need to change. Perhaps the template becomes outdated and gets trashed but it is really not redundant data. -- carol (talk) 07:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


I don't actually understand the what the list means. When I make the templates and apply them (as I am attempting to accomplish from family through genera) those categories are added as a demonstration. The people working on the botany things here -- they are not talking to me. Open sentences like "if you do 'such and such' everything will get messed up" yet no explanation of what "everything" is. They talk instead to each other as they have been for years.

I can easily click though those categories and they are already populated and I know of the ways they should be subcategorized. The plant people will never discuss this if they only talk with each other. The fact that the wiki can manage the information here (not just the plants and the taxonomy tree but many more of the information) is a fact. All of this reminds me of something I need to do.... -- carol (talk) 21:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is a very good and perhaps a little late question. Do not worry about my sensitivity when answering as I am more interested in this software thing, this management of an existing database -- I am more interested in this functioning at it finest than I am in preserving things (templates in this case) I did. The question: Is your taxonomy navigation going to render my templates obsolete? -- carol (talk) 21:54, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Hopefully. :) That's the plan, right? To create some awesome template that will replace the old way of dong things. But right now I think I'm going to try a different approach to this. I'm going to start off with a species list creator or something like that and start working from the ground up to get more familiar with the taxonomy. I may know how templates work, but I have very little experience working in this area. Besides, you can use some help.
Oh, and I was just telling you about the wanted categories in case you wanted to make them not be red anymore. All that page does is list the non-existent categories with the most members. It doesn't really matter if you do or not, but if you don't someone else will. Rocket000(talk) 01:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Probably I do and will make them. It is that humility thing where I want someone who knows about this stuff to say "cool" and wow! we had no idea that could be done and stuff like that. It is perhaps not going to happen so I will once again, just need to know it is cool and do it.
Some thinking about where they go needs to happen possibly. The existing big tree has categories like "Museums by country" and those new category might need to be named like that. Maybe I can get Foroa to do that.... -- carol (talk) 02:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey! I just used a new to me phrase and thought I would share it with you:
Pain in the process
Kind of good I think. Descriptive without abusing language too much.
I would like an easier way to find all of the genera with the problem names. The way I have right now is to discover them. I am wondering if there is a more efficient way to find them and once found, I think that renaming them like wikispecies does [[:Category:Genus ({{{family}}}]] would go far to keep things simple in the long run. Any ideas? -- carol (talk) 03:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that's the best way to disambiguate. Maybe you can do a search on Wikispecies for all titles with parenthesis in them and go from there. Rocket000(talk) 03:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Maybe this will help. Rocket000(talk) 03:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Almost an edit conflict. Wikispecies is not having to worry about city names or one I found even shared the name with a religious journey. What is needed, I think, is a way to know them here -- the ones that exist. They will not be necessarily named well, some with (plant), some with (genus), I named one with ({{{family}}}) to find them as they exist here and change them to be more uniform, I think that finding the wikispecies instances of them is a wasted step. I looked at all the ways to name them and to me, the way that wikispecies managed it was the best of the options. Not the same as needing a list from there, I don't think. It is easier to make the template work with existing attributes. -- carol (talk) 04:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC) I already went through the too long thinking and worrying about this naming thing for categories which do not exist here yet. They don't exist! Not in the plant tree, not in the animal tree, not as a village name. They don't exist yet so they can be created as a plant genus and a suggestion like is on Category:Viola be used if the name needs to be shared in the future. -- carol (talk) 04:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'll try to make a good list from here. I figured Wikispecies would be more complete than us with species, so you can plan in advance even if we have no conflicts here. Searching en.wp might also be a good idea.... but I see what you're saying you want the non-(...) name for your plants since they're not taken yet. Sneaky. Rocket000(talk) 04:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Sure, maybe it is sneaky but it is already what happens naturally? That is not sneaky and thinking about it before it is done is not so sneaky. When each state and province has a list of names of cities that can have empty categories made here; that would have been them being sneaky if they had done it before the plants? I like to think that thinking about it ahead of time is not being sneaky. If you want to call it that okay. They used to call it squatters rights when the United States was first expanding. It was not sneaky then either, it was about who had staked out the land and started working it. -- carol (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I didn't mean it like a bad thing. The new list I'm making is being pulled directly from Plantae by family (recursively) so it's going to take a little bit. Or should I just search the whole site? (actually faster with a db dump) Rocket000(talk) 04:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
I doubt it will help much, but User:Rocket000/Sandbox. There's some weird ones in there. Rocket000(talk) 05:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

(reset) I took a break and when I got back there was exactly what I was thinking about :) Heh, how did Lucky Strike and Marlboro get there? Heh. Can you determine what the "cat indexed" categories mean? -- carol (talk) 05:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I traced it back to Tobacco. "cat indexed" means that it in a category so don't put it in a gallery? I don't know, but it seems kinda pointless.. what's wrong with putting in a real category? Rocket000(talk) 05:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Wikimedia can do more now, people are here who know what wikimedia can do, the template was either made by you when you were not so good at template making or by someone else in a similar situation. A lot of ideas have to be generated and attempted to get a few good ideas. The "cat indexed" categories used to just make me kind of mad. Smoking tobacco species should be included as subcategories of Tobacco. Commons needs more positive images of this, in my opinion. Writing the words "Marlboro smokers die younger" does not make it to be true. Heck, all of the Marlboro smokers I went to school with were still alive, looking good and mostly in good health when I went back 20 years later. There were a lot of other things that were happening when the smoking stats were being gathered -- I really loathe statistics and the reliance on them by people who do not understand how much they can bend facts with them by simply omitting one or another of the "other things".</end of rant> Sorry about that. Being in California has proven to be one of the most unhealthy things that has occurred to me, celebrating my 30th year of smoking tobacco (33rd if you count the non-inhaling years), 20th year of smoking other things and more than a year of showing that to have been non-addictive -- I could have done all of this somewhere else; somewhere I would rather be.</real end of rant>
I wonder if it will just be easier to move all of those images out of the cat indexed categories and see if anyone complains than proposing it as a plan of action and having it discussed. I have about 10 episodes of Venture Brothers to catch up with and a new goal now of making the name that those categories should be moved to. I will put the suggested name on that page(?) and well, look into them. Category:Viola was not being used, I already started to populate it. I have no idea how many on that list are like that.
So unless you have a different suggestion for what to do next. As difficult as my life gets when I attempt to work with BotChill, there is the report that this bot is able to make categories out of gallery pages and put the images from those pages into the category. That with a list of problem-named genera, the species taxonomy thing of yours can perhaps actually be put into place soon? Sorry about the pro-smoking thing; I don't suggest that anyone start smoking -- I think that success with it has a lot to do with genetics. I had one grandfather who was a smoker and so was his dad. That grandfather died quite young but not his dad. His dad was in his eighties (died in 1969 so he was born in the century before the last one) and was a dottering old fool in many ways but still very healthy in many ways. I remember he used to put lit cigars in his pocket for later. He also fell out of the car once while it was going because he thought the handle would open the window (before the seat belt rules). I think it was the lifestyle of my grandpa and the things he did and not the tobacco and that it is just as easy to make those statistics say that as it is to say that the cigarettes killed him. Oops, I ended this twice already.... -- carol (talk) 06:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)