User talk:Zmorgan

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Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Zmorgan!
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Tip: Categorizing images[edit]

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Hello, Zmorgan!

Tip: Add categories to your images

Thanks a lot for contributing to the Wikimedia Commons! Here's a tip to make your uploads more useful: Why not add some categories to describe them? This will help more people to find and use them.

Here's how:

1) If you're using the UploadWizard, you can add categories to each file when you describe it. Just click "more options" for the file and add the categories which make sense:

Uploadwizard-categories.png

2) You can also pick the file from your list of uploads, edit the file description page, and manually add the category code at the end of the page.

[[Category:Category name]]

For example, if you are uploading a diagram showing the orbits of comets, you add the following code:

[[Category:Astronomical diagrams]]
[[Category:Comets]]

This will make the diagram show up in the categories "Astronomical diagrams" and "Comets".

When picking categories, try to choose a specific category ("Astronomical diagrams") over a generic one ("Illustrations"). Pro-tip: The CommonSense tool can help you find the best category for your image.

Thanks again for your uploads! More information about categorization can be found in Commons:Categories, and don't hesitate to leave a note on the help desk.

BotMultichillT 06:09, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

File:Jordan Staircase, Winter Palace, St Petersburg (Hermitage), 1730, ZM (16).JPG[edit]

To speedy delete an image you have uploaded, simply put something like {{speedydelete|wrong file name, uploaded again}} at the image description page. Regards, --Kjetil_r 11:27, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Purple Links and Discussion Pages[edit]

I am still lost. How do I get to the image description page again? Sorry. I need to learn how to correct mistakes, but even the

Minor point; at the end of your writing, use four tildes to sign your name and date. Slightly more important, yes, you're stumbling around as we all did when we were new to this business, but you're asking questions which will eventually get you there. As for this particular picture, someone has taken care of it, but the impolite robot that told you about the uncategorized Image:Chavin culture, 1st millennium BC to 8th century AD, cast copy, Moscow Mus ZM.JPG didn't go into detail. Click on the link in my previous sentence, and you will see the image description page. Click on the Edit tab at top, and you can edit the description to put at the bottom something like [[Category:Art of Russia]] except of course in this matter of which I know nothing and you know much, you will apply the correct category. And here are my four tildes: Jim.henderson (talk) 03:37, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I just figured out how to talk to you. I didn't see the "category" below the blank space. What is nowiki? Does that go before all commands? I managed to change the picture myself. But I still don't understand how to speedy delete. I now know what to put but I don't know where to put it. Does it just go into the blank section where I put catagory?

Next question, why is orphan in purple on all of my pictures when I look them up? Everything else is in blue. what am I doing wrong? I looked up orphan but I didn't see how it applies. Thanks

By the way, orphans should be in the glossary. How do I ask for that? Okay I am trying the new signature Zmorgan (talk) 04:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Oof, the complexities of Wikimedia Markup Language. I learned it a long time ago while stumbling around the English Wikipedia, as do most of us, which must be why we get people who are more comfortable with words than pictures, like, umm, me. You, on the other hand, came straight to Commons, which is the right place for the talents you have already shown, but it means you come without the usual preparation. Well, the process won't be so much more difficult, as different for us your teachers. Anyway I don't remember where to find this stuff, but someone will probably chime in.
Purple words don't mean you're doing something wrong. A linked word merely changes from blue to purple to indicate that at some time in the past you have used that link. I ignore it, on the theory that I'm hard put to remember what I did twenty minutes ago, nevermind what I read twenty days ago.
Those various things in angled and square brackets are parts of the markup language. Angle brackets are an advanced topic; you can ignore them until you learn more about other things. I was using them to change the appearance when you view the page; the appearance while you are editing is misleading as far as the present purposes are concerned. And, for those purposes, I think I can get along without them.
Every Wikipage has behind it a Discussion Page. You can read it by clicking on the Discussion tab at the top. Here in Commons, the majority of Discussion Pages are empty because each page doesn't get much discussion. When you follow links to, for example Category:Athena, you can say something in the discussion page that will attract the attention of people interested in that category. Oh, you may have noticed, while editing, the extra colon to the left of my word "Category". That's one of those markup language tricks; it causes the word to appear rather than inadvertently categorize your personal talk page.
Topical experts may come to your aid when you open such a discussion. If not, sometimes a better place to find them is in the English Wikipedia, for example in en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome (this time the leftmost colon seen while editing serves a more restricted purpose). Or other languages; speakers of German and French might be especially useful, and of course there's also a Greek Wikipedia where my feeble talents at foreign languages completely fail me. Well, it's getting near my New York bedtime, so ta-ta for now and others will presumably help if you keep finding places to ask them. Jim.henderson (talk) 05:58, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Athena cats[edit]

Hi,

I just read your post on the Village Pump, and it seems interesting to me. Of course, there is still a lot of work to achieve with these cats (I mean all the “mythological famous people”, which are in the same state). I began a little brainstorming with Jastrow, which you can find here—it is in French but what is important is the proposed category tree if you can't read it.

Regards. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 20:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if you watch it, but I just answered on Jastrow talk page. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 09:23, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Bibi Saint-Pol! The link tells us how to do everything, and I am delighted with it. It does everything that I want to do and it is already laid out.

My next question is, who wants to insert the categories? I am willing to try, but I haven't done it before and I am sure I will make mistakes. Jastrow, you seem very interested. Would you like to do it to ensure quality control? Or, if not, would someone be willing to check as I put the first one or two in? I have read the directions three times, but..Zmorgan (talk) 19:07, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

By "insert", do you mean "creating" categories or "adding" categories to each files?
The first step is to create the cats, so that they exist (blue link instead of red); I can do it. But t and decide in which category put it; and for this, your involvement would be greatly appreciated!
2 tips:
  1. Adding a cat to a file is quite simple, you just have to pick a file (follow this link e.g.), click on the “edit” button, then add a tag like [[Category:blablabla]] at the end of the wikisource (you'll see other tags like it).
  2. To leave me a new message on my own page, click on the little sprechen in my signature then on the + just on left to the “edit” button.
Bye. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:34, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Creating a cat requires to “categorize” the cat to be created... Yes, the formula is bit confusing, but currently Category:Athena in sculpture is not created: to do so, you have to add the following text to the page and save it:

[[Category:Athena]]
[[Category:Sculptures by subject]]

(I did it for you as an example; you can check the wikisource) Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 22:51, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

All right, you got it worng in your first attempt at categorizing, and it's no disaster. I and others are looking at any changes to Category:Statues of Athena and if anyone totally snarls it, then whichever of us sees it first will undo it. Your new cat is red, and yes, that means it's bad, or more specifically it is not yet connected to the great tree of categories. Not knowing whether you intended to hang a new cat in the tree, I'll just leave it until the intent is clear to me or someone else handles it. Were it a terrible thing, I would fix it by w:help:undo
Me, to change the cat tree I would have inserted the words Category:Athena in sculpture into the file Category:Statues of Athena, thus making the statues cat a subcategory of the sculpture cat. Note that here in your talk page I'm adding an extra colon in order to cause the words to be displayed rather than categorizing your talk page. If I am correctly understanding your intention, go right ahead by this method. And for heaven's sake don't worry about breaking Wikipedia. It's a very rugged bit of software; I cringe to think of the dumb things I did as a newbie but more experienced editors mopped up the mess quickly. Jim.henderson (talk) 03:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Too many cats[edit]

This deletion debate is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

Here is what Bib suggested that I think works fine.

Category:Athena Category:Athena in sculpture Category:Athena in Ancient Greek sculpture (either the Greek originals, either the Roman copies after Greek originals) Category:Athena in Greek Archaic sculpture (if there is enough material) Category:Athena in Greek Classical sculpture (if there is enough material) ... Category:Athena/Minerva in post-antique sculpture (“syncretic” cat, with all the depictions post-476) Category:Athena/Minerva in Renaissance sculpture (if there is enough material) ... And also: Category:Minerva Category:Minerva in sculpture Category:Minerva in Ancient Roman sculpture (only for original Roman works) Category:Athena/Minerva in post-antique sculpture (the same “syncretic” cat, with the same subcats)

Are we OK? Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 09:18, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Athena in Sculpture will replace Statues of Athena. In this way we can add reliefs, plates, etc that aren't covered under statues.

And actually I got it wrong on the first five attempts. Which is why I quit until someone shows me what I am doing. On the first time (yesterday) I forgot any category. On the second I put the category second. I don't have a clue what I did wrong on the third. I went to edit on the page of a image that would fit into the category. Then I put in Athena| Athena in sculpture. with the 2 beginning and end marks like everyone else. On the fourth try, I tried to change the name of the sub-category Statues of Athena to Athena Statues. I went to the page the category was on and did and edit. No dice. And a fifth... Bibi even typed the words for me and I copied them into the page (using edit) with the image. I put it at the bottom of the list that has description. No dice.

Obviously I am not afraid of trying but I am getting tired of doing it wrong.

I have to thank you again. You are so kind and reassuring you may me relax and quit worrying about bothering everybody! I retire in three years and I plan to make helping to fix the art in Wiki my full-time, part-time job...I think! Zmorgan (talk) 04:13, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Hey Jim, I am excited. One of my attempts did show up. "Athena in sculpture" is there and it has the file I tried to put in there. But of course I did not replace "Statues of Athena" as I meant to do. I have a feeling you had better erase the one I did and then change the name of "Statues of Athena" for me. Or tell me how to change the name. Zmorgan (talk) 04:27, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Slowly, slowly we old folks learn. What's good about being old fogies is that sometimes we know something old and valuable if only we can understand how to fit it into the modern world. Incidentally you can see anyone's Wikiautobiography by clicking on the username, thus letting you know where we're coming from.
So, we've got a Category:Athena in sculpture and a Category:Statues of Athena and that's too many cats. Unfortunately a cat is somewhat hard to kill or even to rename, but as things are now, one of the cats is good but has only one picture, and the rest of the pics are in the category that we would like to kill. So, the somewhat tedious but simple method is to move each picture from the badly named category to the well named category and connect the well named category in its place in the category tree. The moving part is done by editing each pic's description, replacing the bad cat name with the good cat name. Then we can request to the admins that they kill the emptied bad cat.
Oh, there's a way to request that all the contents of one cat be moved instantly to a particular other, but I'm too sleepy to think properly and maybe when I wake in the daytime someone will either have gone through the proper procedure to propose it, or done it. Then we'll have the job of reconnecting the various surviving cats neatly in the tree, and perhaps creating a new cat or two along the way. And remember it isn't exactly a tree; usually the cat structure also approximately resembles a fishnet. Which of course must be dilligently untangled at times. Jim.henderson (talk) 06:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Oh god... I forgot this good old cat Category:Statues of Athena—and all the Statues-like categories. As we seem to have a proper way to deal with sculpture in Greek mythology today, we should make a big renaming I guess. We can do it by asking a bot. I suggest renaming all the Category:Statues of XXX into the form Category:XXX in sculpture, which is larger and would evolve much easier. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 09:00, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Oof, here I thought I was doing a good deed by coaxing a bright newbie through a particularly simple bit of cat wrangling, but now we find ourselves cpening a complex can of old worms. Incidentally in the discussion I remembered my own File:Pomona GAP jeh.JPG which wasn't in any divinity category. Fixing that, I discovered that there isn't a sculptural cat for that particular personage; no big problem as she isn't a superstar among the divas but an indication of how much work will remain after Athena and other superstars are properly sorted. And meanwhile, some watchful editor discovered the new error in Category:Athena in sculpture and repaired it, which points out the disadvantage of carrying out this discussion in someone's personal talk page instead of the cat's talk page.
Normally I only do sculpture as it arises in my geographical work; photographing pigeons on the head of a war hero in a park and the like. Were it only Athena, I would stick with my position that the "in sculpture" cats should die and the "Statues of" cats should live, but looking at the parent cats I appreciate the inverse notion and anyway I shall leave that question to people accustomed to handling sculpture pictures instead of park ones. So yes, mention it in the talk pages of the two relevant parental cats, or of others if you think appropriate, and in a couple days we can call in the help of a mighty move bot. All of which is far more advanced than I intended for this little object lesson, but them's the breaks. Jim.henderson (talk) 13:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, the whole case is becoming more and more confusing. Now we are discussing in two separate places of the same thing: here and there (and partially in French). What I last proposed to User:Foroa is that:
  1. Category:Statues of Athena could live
  2. But it would only be a part of "typoligical" subcats of Category:Athena in sculpture, which will remain the mother cat as it should be.
It would give something like:
In that way, the Pallas of Velletri should fit both Category:Statues of Athena and Category:Athena in Greek Classical sculpture. Joie ! Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 13:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Remember not to categorize the talk page. Have we got that many Athena pix? Guess so. But yes, this discussion has long outgrown any user talk page. When I get back from Whitestone several hours from now I'll pick up, if I have more ideas to contribute, in an approprate category talk page. Any interested editors, put them on your watchlist. Jim.henderson (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
To make things clear, would you mind to put the most important parent cat(s) after each cat (as I did with one cat)
Note that most cats would be better in plural; there are several to be changed yet in this area.
I am under the impression that you will have more new categories and in-between categories than you have images.--Foroa (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I did it for certain categories. I must precise that I'm only interested in creating Category:Athena in sculpture, Category:Athena in Ancient Greek sculpture (and eventual subcats) and Athena in post-antique sculpture which are for me highly necessary. The other cats and how to arrange them is only speculative—specially for statues and so, which were for me not well-thought and as result are not scalable today. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
ANd some additions of existing categories. --Foroa (talk) 15:35, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Those cats you add are highly problematic and result in a real mess. I propose to remove them and replace with a better (more formal) approach. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I did not create those cats: I just try to get a complete picture of what is existing, what structures are existing and needed before doing any move. Such complex categorisation systems are like a micado game: once you change one position, the whole system can fall appart. Moreover, this way, we are sure we understand each other and the result is a proper category system documentation. I suggest to move this whole discussion to a category talk page and invite other people that are active in this area (Giovanni, Shakko, ???) in the discussion. Sorry Zoe of abusing of your talk page. --Foroa (talk) 18:18, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the moving, it should probably go to a Commons project (museum or art). Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 20:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Zmorgan Should you still be struggling with getting to grips wiki markup and the formatting syntax, it is all at How to edit a page. It gives examples of how to use nowiki and every other codification that useful.--P.g.champion (talk) 16:32, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you again PJ. I read it. Of course it is overwhelming, but I will keep at it until it all makes sense. Is there anything to read on categories besides the main help page?

Also to Bibi Saint Pol: I would like to join the museum group to keep up on what you are doing. I like the museum group's walk-through virtual-reality aspect. And I am interested in working on some categories there for people who may not be aware of room numbers. However, after studying what makes a good museum picture, it looks like this group might be focusing on the best of the best pictures.

Art history professors like myself are also interested in making a large variety of images available to those who are interested in studying art. I would say the original "Mythology: Athena" project is more in the art group and the sites should be mirrored under art. So I will try to join that group also. Are you in that group also?

You can see the participants to the project here, and add your name. In fact the project is not really focusing on "the best of the best" pictures as you say. We only try to define common way to work together and solve the problems we encountered (like categorization, naming and description for major ones). 22:17, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
All right; things seem to be perking without me; people who know the topic are on it and discussng it on appropriate Project pages. Projects in Commons are not as important as in English Wikipedia, so getting much done for pictures brings in the complexity of interwiki work. Yes, en:WP:CAT is an excessively long and detailed document for an introduction and the Commons version is not much easier but alas, the problems in this particular cat tree go somewhat beyond elementary skills. If the various help files leave you with specific questions, go ahead and ask. Jim.henderson (talk) 17:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

An extract of this discussion has been transferred to Commons_talk:WikiProject_Museums#Category:Athena for further discussion. --Foroa (talk) 06:07, 14 July 2009 (UTC)