File talk:2020 Nagorno-Karabakh ceasefire map.svg

Murovdağ

Hello RufinaFridwald. The map needs updating. The heights of Murovdag Mountain have also been liberated by the Azerbaijani army.Edit for Murovdag Area BBC Russian Map (5 November): (https://www.bbc.com/russian/live/news-54686682/page/2) BBC News Map (27 October) : (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54862180) --Mr,p balçi (talk) 06:44, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Ahmetlii: . The map needs updating. The heights of Murovdag Mountain have also been liberated by the Azerbaijani army.Edit for Murovdag Area BBC Russian Map (5 November): (https://www.bbc.com/russian/live/news-54686682/page/2) BBC News Map (27 October) : (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54862180) --Mr,p balçi (talk) 06:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Mr,p balçi:  Done.--Ahmetlii (talk) 10:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Teşekkürler.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 22:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Disputed

hello;

1. the azeri front-line gains in the north-west quadrant of this map seem to be grossly exaggerated, according to pretty much everything else on the wp/en article about the conflict in that area.

2. the original boundaries of n-k should be included/restored on the map. it is particularly absurb that the old olbast boundaries ARE shown in the north & ARE NOT shown in the south.

respectfully,

Lx 121 (talk) 07:36, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Hello Lx 121. Look at this map:

This map has been updated based on resources and is almost identical to the map we are discussing. With respect.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 08:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Well, with respect, on the wp/en article for the conflict NONE of the other maps show the azeri forces as having taken karvachar/kalbajar & the area you show as under azeri control in the NE quadrant (although the area is supposed to be handed over as part of the agreement). INCLUDING the map you used as an example.

so, either this map is wrong, or all the other maps AND the text of the wp/en article are wrong?

Since you have said nothing about adding theboundaries of the original N-K autonomous oblast, i take it you do not disagree with my point on that matter?

Lx 121 (talk) 10:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lx 121: We based from Wikipedia sources, and I cannot see any differences with this map and what we provided. Also, about the Karvachar, the map shows where will be given to Azerbaijan and where taken by Azerbaijani forces before the ceasefire, we specified that. About the boundaries of NKAO, we used the pre-war map of 1992 to determine NKAO's borders (I'm not saying "Artsakh", which is another different story). I cannot see any differences or problems about it, please more specific about why and what you want to change.

Note: Due to the scale of map, some borders might be look like bigger than real, but actually it's a illusion.Ahmetlii (talk) 10:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

...alright, i stand partly corrected; i'm sorry, you did colour that area as "to be handed over". but i suggest using a STRONGER COLOUR CONTRAST for the different zones. because the colour used in that zone is almost identical to the colour for areas occupied by azeri forces before the cease-fire.

& on the reduced-size view used in wp article, it is impossible to tell the difference between the colours of those zones (& the legend doesn't help, when you can't see the differences in the colours on the actual map).

i'd suggest using an entirely different colour (or perhaps a pattern-teture overlay?) for the ceasefire agreement handover zones. colouring them green like the areas taken by azeri forces during the conflict just confuses the graphics.

on the other point, i still think you should include the complete boundaries of the original oblast, for reference. you have these visible in the upper part of the map, but not the lower part. that seems rather silly.

Lx 121 (talk) 11:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

p.s.: why are the bodies of water coloured purple? Lx 121 (talk) 11:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Lx 121: yes, that's right. That might be too hard for people whose are color-blind. Anyway, I must change it soon.Ahmetlii (talk) 20:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Again on Mount Murov/Mrav/Murovdag

There are still no proofs regarding the Azeri claims: Here on Nov. 15 Ghost_watcher who worked 3 years on Military Maps and it’s an expert Geolocator: [1]; with Armenians still keeping Omar Pass: [2]. --37.163.45.78 09:12, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

After 2 hours of the tweet of GhostWatcher you linked, they [ https://twitter.com/ghost_watcher1/status/1328081246149283842?s=20 geo-located] an Azeri position on Murovdagh, confirming it. CuriousGolden (talk) 10:01, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

That does not confirm the map, since it's in a different region. And the advance is tiny, if it even is an advance. Looking at mapping from before the Azeri position is in the contact zone, so it was not under Armenian control before 2020 either. Besides: Morovdag is the whole mountain range in the north of Karabakh. The tip the map here refers to is the Kamish(dag). And the tip where AZ made a tiny advance is Mrav-Sar. --Don-kun (talk) 09:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Güncelleme

Selam @Ahmetlii: kardeşim. Bu Kaynağa göre, Şuşakənd ve Muxtar köyleri de Azerbaycan ordusu tarafından kurtarılmıştır. Bu yüzden lütfen haritayı güncelleyin. Teşekkürler.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 06:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Ayrıca bu haritaya da bakın:

--Mr,p balçi (talk) 06:05, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Bu haritada Şuşakənd (şuşikənd)'ın konumu belli.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 06:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Name

Hi @CuriousGolden: I see you asked for the file to be renamed, claiming that "Artsakh" is baised [3]. Could you possibly give sources to support your claims? Mapeh (talk) 20:00, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi. I haven't made a claim. "Artsakh" is the Armenian name for Karabakh, which is not en:WP:COMMONNAME. While "Nagorno-Karabakh" is the standart common name used by almost all reliable sources to refer to the conflict (BBC, Al Jazeera, France24 (refers to it as simply "Karabakh", which can also be used to rename this)). CuriousGolden (talk) 21:11, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Yes, I see what you're saying. The problem I see with Karabakh is that it can ambiguously refer to either the former NKAO or the larger Republic of Artsakh, while the term "Artsakh" is unambiguous (and is more appropriate in my opinion, as the war was more outside NKAO than inside). In any case, such a move should have been discussed here first. Mapeh (talk) 12:28, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@Mapeh: I proposed the move which I imagined would be discussed here since that's the standard procedure in Wikipedia. But, someone else moved it right after I nominated it for a move. Sorry regardless. CuriousGolden (talk) 13:57, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Khtsaberd, Hin Tagher and Katarovank

@Mapeh: Hey! Khtsaberd and Hin Tagher, as well as the Katarovank monastery are still under Artsakh control: Armenian media have reported about the towns, which has been an Armenian holdout in the Hadrut Province: [4] [5] and Liveuamap has also marked it as controlled by Artsakh forces [6] [7]. Since it hasn't been included on the Russian military maps [8] (yet) it should probably be marked differently than the areas secured by Russian peacekeepers. And by the way - the Armenian term for Jabrayil is "Jrakan" (Ջրական). AntonSamuel (talk) 21:15, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: Thanks for the info, I'll correct the map soon :) Mapeh (talk) 12:30, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

@AntonSamuel: I'm sorry, but with the end of year events I didn't get round to this edit. The pocket has since disappeared, so additionally there is no need for this anymore. Thanks again and sorry for any inconvenience caused, Mapeh (talk) 08:30, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mapeh: No worries! As the situation has somewhat stabilized now, it's unlikely that there would be any further radical changes with regard to control in the near future. International politics and the politics of the region are pretty volatile and unpredictable though so you never know. AntonSamuel (talk) 09:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Dadivank

@Mapeh: Your version of the Dadivank - Russian control is waaay too big than what it is in real life. Your version would be including not only the monastery, but also the entire Vəng village and several other villages/heights/mountains in the area. You can fix it by looking at Wikimapia to see how tiny the control area is (it's the short distance between NK and Dadivank itself). It'd also be wise to not use same marker & text-size for Dadivank, a monastery as you have with villages & towns. CuriousGolden (talk) 12:04, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: Yes, of course. This map does not have, and technically cannot have, the precision of Wikimapia, OpenStreetMap or any other zoomable map. Furthermore, even if that were its objective it would simply not be possible: many areas and borders are imprecisely defined, are more notions that exactitudes. The Shushi/Shusha bypass road does not go on that exact path, Hadrut is shown as a point while its actually a much bigger polygon. This map gives a schematic, simplified, view of the situation. And it's nothing exceptional, all maps are a schematized, simplified, version of reality. Those that want very precise information (to the level of individual buildings, which is what you are asking for) have the Wikipedia article and any other sources at their disposal for that.

Concerning Dadivank/Khutavank specifically: if only the area of the monastery itself were highlighted, it would be less than the size of a single pixel, and therefore unperceivable. That would be of no use whatsoever to the viewer. The area colored is therefore just big enough to be shown. Furthermore, even if we could do that it would be quite inaccurate : the presence of Russian troops is not limited to the monastery itself but they are often present in the general vicinity of the village (see these images : 1, 2, 3, 4), a fact confirmed by the Russian military maps (which systematically include the whole of Dadivank/Khutavank village as part of their peacekeeping operations [9]). For these reasons it is the village that is shown (not the monastery, hence the choice of marker), and the peacekeeping zone uses a general rounded approximate border ; this accurately portrays the current situation, where Russian peecekeeping troops are present in and around Dadivank/Khutavank.

Mapeh (talk) 13:18, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mapeh: The Russian peacekeeper map does not show the village as under Russian control. Vank is a different village inside Nagorno-Karabakh, it's not the same village where Dadivank is located. And the images you've linked show peacekeepers within the vicinity in the village, because, well the monastery IS in the vicinity of the village. The Shusha and Nakhchivan road can be, not clear because no one knows real situation there, but we do know it in Dadivank area and intentionally showing it larger than it is doesn't help viewers in any way. For those reasons, the peacekeeper area in Dadivank should be made smaller to match the real situation to not misguide our viewers and the marker for a monastery should obviously not be same as a village. It'd be better if you used a church vector image or something similar for it instead. CuriousGolden (talk) 13:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: the map literally shows the whole of the village of "Ванк", i.e. Dadivank/Khutavank inside the area of Russian military deployment. You must be confusing the villages of Dadivank/Khutavank and Vank/Vangli, since both are commonly known as just "Vank". The Russian military map is however very clear as the point is unambiguously on the village of Dadivank/Khutavank.

I'd further like to point out that you yourself provide further reasons for the map to stand as it is, with a Russian peacekeeping zone the includes the general vicinity of the village of Dadivank/Khutavank : "the images you've linked show peacekeepers within the vicinity in the village". Just like the operations in Lachin are not restricted to just Lachin but the general area, so are the operations in Dadivank/Khutavank not restricted to just the monastery but the general area.

Mapeh (talk) 15:49, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mapeh: There's no village named Dadivank/Khutavang. That is the name of the monastery. The Russian peacekeeper map is showing en:Vank, Nagorno-Karabakh, not en:Vəng, Kalbajar. Azerbaijani MoD has even released video from en:Vəng, Kalbajar showing it under full Azerbaijani control. Taking control of an Azerbaijani village outside Nagorno-Karabakh isn't a small matter and if that really happened, there'd be a lot of news & controversy over it by now. To add to that, that village marker isn't even that close to where en:Vəng, Kalbajar actually is, so it should be pretty obvious that it refers to Nagorno-Karabakh's Vank.

It seems you did not read the next part of my sentence that you linked. It shows them in the vicinity because the monastery is in the vicinity. That means it's showing them near the monastery, not in the village. If you're in Dadivank, you're automatically in the vicinity of en:Vəng, Kalbajar. And I don't get what your last sentence says, since Russian operations are restricted to the Lachin corridor, as they don't walk out of it and do operations on random Azerbaijani-controlled places. CuriousGolden (talk) 15:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: I'm sorry, but, again, you are mixing up two homonymous villages. The village you mention, Vank, Nagorno-Karabakh, is actually already on the map, to the south-east in the center of the former NKAO. The place referred to as "Ванк" on the Russian map is Vəng, Kalbajar. To be 100% certain I have superimposed both maps using Google Maps and Inkscape, there is absolutely no question about this fact.

I understand you find it surprising that this part of the territory transferred to Azerbaijan has Russian peacekeepers, but multiple articles attest to the fact : [10], [11], [12]. Concerning the precise way of showing this zone, as said before: a map gives a schematic, simplified, view of the situation. It cannot go down to building level precision. The map reflects this. Concerning the toponym, there is however a case that "Khutavank" is officially just "Vang" in Azeri, I have changed it to that name.

Finally, claims must be backed up with sources. You talked about a video, could you please give a source for this video that shows Dadivank/Vang under "full Azerbajani control" and, secondly, the absence of Russian peacekeepers?

Mapeh (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@Mapeh: I don't see Vank, Nagorno-Karabakh anywhere on the centre of NKAO. Even if that village wasn't that Vank, it cannot be Vəng, Kalbajar since it's really far away from that. I'm sure you've figured that out by now after superimposing both maps. It may have been naming or a placement mistake, as Russian peacekeeper map changes dramatically almost every week.

Your sources are all about Dadivank Monastery being under Russian control and I never denied it. I'm saying the village of Vəng, Kalbajar isn't, which you haven't provided a source for that says it is.

I'm not asking you to go down to building level precision. But the current version goes well beyond a level of "just making it big so people can notice". Its size can easily be reduced to match the real-life situation (or slightly bigger) and still be clearly visible to viewers.

Here is the video. It even shows parts from the Dadivank monastery itself, though Russian peacekeeper presence in the monastery itself is clear as there's a Russian flag around, while there's no sign of Russians/Armenians in the village itself (which is shown in the first half of the video). CuriousGolden (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

@CuriousGolden: This is enough. I am seriously wondering whether or not you are not trolling. This discussion is nonsensical and there is no reason for it to go further.

The village of Vank/Vangli is on the map, here it is clearly pointed out 25km south-east of Dadivank/Vang. We will not go further on this matter.

Images 3 and 4 linked above clearly show Russian troops at 40°09'28.3"N 46°17'01.3"E, not next to Dadivank/Khutavank monastery but well on the other side of the village, in an area part of Karvachar/Kelbajar district.

Unlike what was stated, the video shows no sign whatsoever of Azerbaijani control, let alone "full" control. There is not a single Azeri soldier shown. It could very well just be a collection of stock images (in fact multiple times it seems like a still image has been used as if a video through tactful zooming), and could probably best be described as cheap propaganda.

Finally, I cannot help but notice a certain inherent bias. Your suggestions for this map have near systematically been to maximize territory shown as under Azeri control. Only a few hours were enough for you to claim that the Dadivank/Vang area was too big, but not a word was said on the the Armenians' Khtsaberd, Hin Tagher and Katarovank pocket. You have also never shown any concern for the Mravi/Murovdagh area, even though in the same way as for Dadivank/Vang it exaggerates the Azeri controlled area to increase legibility (but in this case Azeri territory is shown as bigger). You very quickly asked that the Azeri controled area south of Shushi/Shusha (which you systematically refer to using only the Azeri name) be made bigger, even before those areas' Azeri control was confirmed. You have called for the removal of Armenian placenames, and ridiculously claimed that the Azeri placenames used a "smaller" font. This is enough. You must understand your own bias and keep it in check. Wikimedia is not here to cater to the feelings of Azeri nationalists.

Mapeh (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The imgur file you've linked unfortunately doesn't work. Though, as you've said it's 25km away from the actual village and the dot seems to be put on the village of Charektar rather than actual Vank. Russian peacekeeper maps shouldn't be used for detail since they can contain lot of errors as I've pointed in our previous discussions.

There are usually never Azerbaijani soldiers shown in the videos released by the Azerbaijani Ministry of Defence. The videos' purpose is to show that village is under Azerbaijani control and to show their state, which is why they have not released any video from areas inside Nagorno-Karabakh that are not under Azerbaijani control (even from villages that were formerly Azerbaijani-majority which would interest the public). I'm confused about what part of a video recording a village you thought to be propaganda, though, so I'd be happy if you explained.

Your last paragraph crosses the line here with baseless & ridiculous accusations with violations of assuming good faith and WP:ASPERSIONS (accusing of serious things without proof). It seems that you are accusing me of bias because I have not made a comment on certain things and have made on others, which, I can make no sense of. I wouldn't usually reply to baseless accusations, but I'll try to reply to this one, in an attempt to make it easier for you to assume good faith. I comment on things/mistakes which have not been mentioned by anyone else and I have information about. The Chaylaggala/Khtsaberd issue was already discussed by another user above, so I didn't see a need to comment on it. I also have no information about Murovdagh area as I've never researched it, so I don't have anything to say about it, which is why I haven't commented about it. Next, I only asked about control around Shusha in your map when I had compared it to how it was on the Russian map, so I was not, as you implied, randomly asking you if you could "make it bigger" with no argument. I find it really weird that you accuse me of not using two names all the time in my comments. I use the WP:COMMONNAME, which "Shusha" happens to be; I don't choose the names based on what ethnicity uses it. For example, I rarely use "Khankendi" or "Aghdere" in any discussions. Next; I have never called for the removal of Armenian names. I called for all names to be replaced with WP:COMMONNAMEs instead of 2 different Armenian/Azerbaijani names, to make things less cluttered. Not sure how you thought that was a proposal for only removing Armenian names, when it would also remove Azerbaijani names from cities in Nagorno-Karabakh like Stepanakert, Martuni and Martakert. I won't comment on the last sentence, since it's personally really offending. I hope you will stop accusing me when I'm trying to help and instead assume good faith and be friendly like I have tried to be. CuriousGolden (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

January map update

Thanks for your impressive map. Good work despite all the critic. According to latest development I suggest two changes.

1. All areas in the Zangilan and Qubadli rayons south of the Lachin rayon are controlled by the Azeris now. This solves the estimations about the former line of contact. This guy https://twitter.com/deSyracuse/status/1327573451675201537 uses another color for the affected area. I do not recommend another color. Please widen the area labeled "Areas recaptured by Azerbaijan, to stay under its control." westwards to the Azeri/Armeni border in Zangilan and Qubadli.

2. The mountain peak captured by Azeris is at 40°17'53.0"N 46°30'33.1"E according to https://twitter.com/ghost_watcher1/status/1328081246149283842. Somewhat northwest of the Sarsang reservoir (Former "capture" announcements from Baku proved wrong). The coordinates you used are delivered by wikipedia for the 70 km long mountain range (coordinate target is near the Gamış mountain https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2898512740 ). So please check to move this area 15 km eastwards.

Hb (talk) 12:00, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Hb: Thanks for the info concerning the mountain peak Azerbaijan captured ; it has been updated. Concerning the limits of the zone Azerbaijan captured in the South : the actual limit is quite vague, with multiple contradicting sources. The map provided by Twitter user @deSyracuse has already been used to help define the border, but was also compared to other sources here. The final border was then decided in this discussion. Thanks, Mapeh (talk) 10:45, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, the discussion was correct with the information available back then. But we see now, that the Azeris have taken over the whole area. This leaves a discrepancy. Hb (talk) 16:24, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Murovdagh

@Mapeh: Hi. The new version you uploaded seems to be more accurate, but unfortunately I accidentally reverted it to the previous version. But please mention Murovdagh in the new version. Murovdagh is now under the control of Azerbaijan. Pay attention to this map.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 17:40, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Mr,p balçi: . I have reverted the file back. I do not understand your final sentence, as the source specifically shows Mravi/Murovdagh as being not under Azeri control. Mapeh (talk) 17:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The Murovdagh peak wasn't confirmed to be captured by Azerbaijan during the war. Regardless, captured during war or not, it passed to Azerbaijani control after the ceasefire since it's part of the Kalbajar District. Only part of the Murovdagh range that was confirmed to be captured by Azerbaijan during the war was in more north-central Nagorno-Karabakh (near the village of Gulustan) as Mapeh and my map you linked have shown. CuriousGolden (talk) 17:36, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

@Mapeh: Thank you for restoring the previous version. But about Murovdagh! It seems that the same explanation that I was going to give was given by CuriousGolden.--Mr,p balçi (talk) 19:40, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

What sources do you have regarding the alleged control of the territory in the north by the Azerbaijanis, the size of Shushi?--Taron Saharyan (talk) 01:25, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Geolocation. It's not in the size of Shusha, it's one peak. CuriousGolden (talk) 09:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It is not a fact that this geolocation is genuine. It might just be propaganda forgery. We must only rely on official sources.--Taron Saharyan (talk) 00:03, 5 April 2021 (UTC)