Commons:Village pump

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Village pump
Welcome to the Village pump

This Wikimedia Commons page is used for discussions of the operations, technical issues, and policies of Wikimedia Commons. For old discussions, see the Archive. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days may be archived.

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Contents



[edit] October 4

[edit] Tour Total

France is another country with a lack of panorama. Here is the Tour Total: File:Tour Total.jpg - Would this design be strictly utilitarian, or would it be architecturally distinct? Should this stay on here, or should I start a deletion debate to determine whether this should be moved to EN and FR? WhisperToMe (talk) 08:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, sadly I fear it can't stay here. --Túrelio (talk) 08:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Hi to all the wikipedians
I am lucky to live in the suburb of Paris and to work in Paris, near Opera. I can take photos of this wonderful town that I love. If I understand well, it is forbidden to publish images of recent buildings (no Freedom of Panoramas in France). It is allowed only if the building is a part of the image, but not the main goal of the image.
If it is true, why can I find so many skyscrapers of "Category:La Défense" on Commons ? I only added one skyscraper : File:Tour Total.jpg. I have other ones to add (tour Areva, formerly tour Fiat). And my friend WhisperToMe asked me another ones.--Tangopaso (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Do I understand correctly that it is OK in Franch law if you publish an image of a panorama, in which the building in question takes up only a small portion of the image? If so, could this restriction (im my opinion a ridiculous, one, but that's of course only my opinion) be circumvented by using more panoramic pictures? Given the maximum image size, a panoramic picture can be quite large, and anyone viewing this picture can zoom in on a building that he is interested in. When he then decides to crop the image, we'll, that's hardly our responsibility, is it? To put lawyers' minds at rest, we might add some sort of statement to the effect that cropping such an image may constitute a breach of French intellectual property law, and that anyone doing this is doing so at his own risk. Best regards, MartinD (talk) 09:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Why are some people making template and upload form image links unclickable?

I don't see the point. It just makes accessing those images difficult if people want to learn more about those images, or if they want to use those images in other templates or outside the Commons. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Could you provide some examples to show what you mean? --Túrelio (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe he refers, for example, to the magnifying glass icon on MediaWiki:Uploadtext. On localized versions it's clickable. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 07:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
See this diff for MediaWiki:Uploadtext/fromflickr. People need the image icon links in order to research the images, and similar images in the same category. For example; that is what I did when adapting that table to other locations, and to wikia. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I strongly think that the icons in templates etc should not link to image's page but should link to something relevant to whatever the icon symbolizes. These images are not displayed in these contexts to give you access to the image, but to illustrate some function. The last thing most users want is to be weirdly taken off to a page describing the image when they are trying to use some feature or find out more about whatever the icon is illustrating. If there is nothing sensible to link to (eg it is just for decoration) then linking it to nothing (so clicking it has no effect) will mean the user will look for other links rather than being taken off on an unrelated path. Yes it makes it a bit more difficult to locate the image used but that is a rather secondary, 'backroom' use. --Tony Wills (talk) 08:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
In that particular example I would have put null links for the OK/NOT OK icons, and link the other CC type icons to the appropriate page (ie the page the corresponding text description links to). --Tony Wills (talk) 08:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
If someone designs templates, he knows how to edit the template to display the wiki-code and discover the filename of the image. Sv1xv (talk) 08:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure it is a good idea to get people in the habit of clicking images on Wikipedia or the Commons to get to guidelines, policies, help, navigation, and so on. This will confuse people. Clicking images should always go to image info in my opinion. The only exception should be links for images that are copyrighted by Wikimedia, and are not free images. Such as the Main Page icon image at the top left of every page.
People shouldn't have to hunt around for images to click in order to get help. So making some images not clickable as a path to making them clickable later for help is not a good idea. Please stop making images unclickable. I believe it causes more damage than good. All images should be clickable. The copyrighted images at the bottom and top of every page are linked to the Main Page, the Wikimedia Foundation, and Mediawiki.org. Everyone knows of those.
Some of the best web site images are template and form images. People can use them everywhere, and not just on the Commons and Wikipedia. Sometimes people find even better images for templates and forms by clicking the existing images, and looking in the categories. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
It is bizarre to have images on help pages, info pages or templates go to information about the image and not related to the context in which the image is used. A users experience of practically every other website on the Internet teaches them to click on links and icons to find related information, or to go on to the next step. I agree that icons should be clickable and take you to predicable places, but they should take you to what they represent (eg license info) and not the image's info page. For the very, very few people who want to know about the image, I know it is annoying, but this is a minority use, not the objective of having them displayed there. There are many ways to find the image, right click on it and look at the alternate text/copy link location, or turn off auto loading images on your browser and reload the page to see the alternate text giving the filename, or look at the page source. If you need any help finding an image's source, just ask :-) --Tony Wills (talk) 00:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The most related information for an image is info about the image. 99.9% of the time that is what people get. Clicking images on the Commons in order to find guidelines, help, etc. is not natural, and would be a new policy, and would only confuse most users. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, that is the norm for wikimedia as we are all about the media, but icons are there for a utilitarian purpose not related to being an image that happens to be hosted on Commons, think of the images used as icons as part of the software, part of the user interface, part of the background. Context is important, when images are in galleries, categories, or being discussed on talk pages - anywhere that the context is about that image, it makes sense to link to info about the image. Other places it does not. Yes, until recently (the link= option is a recent addition) there was no choice about where the images linked to, whether it made sense or not. It may not be natural for people who are used to the strange behaviour of icons previously, but it is natural behaviour for the other 99% of the web universe that come here for the first time. I agree that because it is a recent change, that usage is inconsistent. I think there will be discussion, about whether a null link or a link to a particular page makes more sense, on a case by case basis. --Tony Wills (talk) 08:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, much of the web universe does not put links behind images at all. Oftentimes there is no logical pattern for image links, and what they link to, even on the same web site. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:00, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
One other consideration is that making them not link to the image page is probably a violation of the license (unless the image is PD). The author should be attributed, and on many projects it is felt to be enough to satisfy the license if clicking on the image went to the image page which had attribution and license info. But if we don't do that, or provide an alternate way... then we are not mentioning the author or license. File:Stop hand.svg is not PD, for example. Carl Lindberg (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Having icons link to something else than the file description page is not unheard of even on Wikimedia. The star at the top of any en.wp Featured Article (example) links to en:Wikipedia:Featured Articles, not the star image. The globe at the top of a geo-located article (example) is a similar situation. These are actually licence violations, since File:Cscr-featured.svg and File:Erioll world.svg are not PD. I don't know whether this has ever been discussed on en.wp. Pruneautalk 13:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The reason why these images are unclickable is that a lot of people unwillingly click on these images, but they simply aren't meant to click on them, since they only illustrate something. Making them unclickable is for usability. Considering the license, I don't see an issue. I mean, the image is still under CC/GFDL or whatever, the license doesn't change if you make it clickable or not clickable. --The Evil IP address (talk) 15:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
What about unclickable CC-BY or GFDL images (expecially when the author is not a Commons user himself)? I known that may sound a little absurd, but could we really say that Commons is giving proper attribution if no link is provided when using such images? I'm not trying to make a point, just wondering. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 16:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I agree that this is a potential issue. Images requiring attribution should always link to their description pages, because that's how we do attribution. Powers (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
If that's an issue, a solution could be a specific license exception for Commons (or for all Wikimedia projects) for what concerns attribution. The rights owner could grant it via a new license tag (but then it makes things difficult in case of derivative works). -- IANEZZ  (talk) 16:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Requiring the backlink would also make image maps much less useful. I think that as there is a clear advantage to usability to unlinking images (or linking them to pages other than the file page) we shouldn't get too worried about it.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Please see the image link incorporated into this image map: w:Template:PRC provinces big imagemap. I was recently asked by the author of an image to better attribute his image when I used it somewhere. So people do care. I think the minor advantage to usability in one area (unlinking the images) is matched by some more serious disadvantages: of attribution, and usability in other areas (reuse and category access). --Timeshifter (talk) 03:52, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

In the case of images used in the interface, the usability of the interface is the critical usability issue: >99% of people viewing MediaWiki:Uploadtext/ownwork do so whilst uploading images. Any links not relevant to the purpose of that form make it harder to upload files. Access to categories (and the other issues you raised at the start of this thread) are insignificant behind-the-scenes issues compared to that: Anyone who needs to translate/copy a MediaWiki page can just look at the source, whilst the users of the interface may get confused/irritated etc by irrelevant links.
Attribution is a different issue, with wider implications than the uses discussed here (eg Template:Welcome doesn't link its images). Like some of the others above, I don't see a problem with this. Just because we "always" attribute by links to the file page doesn't mean that is the only way we can do so. For example, we could put a byline in the image's alt text. That way the distracting link is gone, but the people curious about the image can still get info about it.--Nilfanion (talk) 12:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Another possible way would be to do it similarly as on en.wikipedia with the "Cite this page" link (which is also available on any gallery here on Commons, for a reason that I didn't yet understand), but with a link that says "Reuse this page's images" which gives help to reuse images. --The Evil IP address (talk) 19:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I hadn't thought about the attribution issue. I agree it needs to be addressed. Maybe we just have to be more selective about the images we use as part of the interface, or instead have a credit line on the page using them - a link to a page with links or credits for each image. Not only icons, but images used in the background may need credit links. Something automatically generated like the "media" link found on the "View page info" right click menu under Firefox browsers, there are a surprising number of media links for any given wikimedia page. --Tony Wills (talk) 23:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I think this is heading towards Bugzilla. For example, consider the MediaWiki logo. Who created it, what license is it under? How would we get that information into a wiki page? A special page listing the images used on w:Manchester Mummy would be genuinely useful especially if it could provide license details too. Perhaps Special:ImageCredits? Incidentally Special:Book (on WP) provides details of the images when producing PDFs.--Nilfanion (talk) 23:35, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Special:ImageCredits --Tony Wills (talk) 23:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Not a bad start, think I'd prefer a more verbose special page (with textual details of the files on it) as opposed to having to follow more links to get to that info.--Nilfanion (talk) 01:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I fundamentally disagree that having linked images is a "critical usability issue" for people uploading images. Nilfanion, you recently removed the image links on most of the upload pages. Others have been removing them from templates. All to solve a problem that doesn't exist in my opinion. And without discussion first. I notice that intuitive user interfaces are often made less intuitive over time by feature-creep. I am talking about features and complexity added over time by geeks like us who have forgotten the new user experience. I am talking about the web in general. Until recently, everyone using the Commons and Wikipedia knew that clicking an image took one to the image info. Simple, intuitive, and habit-forming. Clicking an image and arriving at the image info is not a problem! It does not confuse people who upload to the Commons. They quickly learn that clicking images takes one to the image info. To send them anywhere else is what would fundamentally mess things up, and confuse many people. Then people would not know where to look for help. Currently we all click labeled text links to get help. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I didn't say that "linked images" are a critical issue. I said that the critical purpose of the upload forms is to upload files. Anything that makes that harder is a bad thing. Links to help pages may assist uploaders, especially new ones who don't know what they are doing. Links to locations that are irrelevant to that purpose, such as image descriptions, are not helpful and can make it harder as its not that hard to accidentally follow those links. IMO no link is better than links of dubious value, whether that's to non-useful image pages or to useful help pages accessed in a unusual manner (I agree with you that 'counter-intuitive' links should be avoided). Any link on the interface should be there because it is helpful, not just a legacy from the (recent) past when we had to accept all images linking to the description page. Unlinking these images is simplfying the interface (the attribution problem is only issue that concerns me here).--Nilfanion (talk) 01:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I can confirm from my daily work with normal web users that linked icons are a critical usability issue. Web users are clicking on everything when they are not familiar with a website. Icons, which are linked to their file description are conufing the people heavily. The people expects by clicking on an icon to see more information about the image license of the image they are viewing (but not the license of the icon) or how to continue with uploading. But not an information that is useless at this time. Sure, they can hit the back button but it's waste of time. In other words: Bad usability.
At least the icons should be linked to the same page as the following text link. If this is not possible the icons should be delinked.
Please keep in mind that more than 95% of all users are readers only who are not interested in details how Commons works. In case of potential reusers of our copyrighted images we should make it as easy as possible to show the license info. Linked icons in the license templates are confusing as written above. The people are interested in the full license text and not in the icon's file description. Most used icons are PD or have not threshold of origin so it is not a copyright violation. Raymond 06:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) I am taking this page off my watchlist. I already replied to all the points made. I see that some of my points are being ignored by some. The discussion is becoming more about taking sides, and less of a discussion. I have better things to do with my time. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The very active Wikipédia:Atelier accessibilité (Accessibility Workshop) on the french Wikipedia has made it very clear that « decorative images » should not link to description pages as it is a major accessibility issue. Since then, it has made one of its priority to convert them to CSS backgrounds or to properly link them using |link=. French-speakers can read the community decision here. The non-PD pictures are listed in fr:Wikipédia:Crédits graphiques, which is linked in the footer on every page. Jean-Fred (talk) 01:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I think doing like on fr.wikipedia would be a great idea. This would solve the attribution problem and still make usability high. --The Evil IP address (talk) 16:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] COM:AN

COM:AN. Please see:

[edit] File:Wintry symphony.JPG

My uploaded oil painting called "wintry symphony" has indeed never been exposed elsewhere.--LINKELS Josy(talk) 22:57, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

But, then why did you include "This painting has been published somewhere else." when uploading the image? --Túrelio (talk) 10:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
If you don't like the image description a) you appear to have written it and b) there's a handy edit tab at the top of the page where you can change it. By the way, nice work, we appreciate it when artists contribute original work under a free license. Thanks. -Nard the Bard 15:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] October 30

[edit] Book covers

If a book isn't itself in public domain, but it's cover is made with an image that is in public domain (such as an old portrait) and titles and subtitles in simple fonts, can it be scanned and uploaded, or would that be a copyright violation? Belgrano (talk) 02:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the country of origin. In many countries (however not in the USA) the publisher has exclusive rights for pagination and typesetting and the actual extend of these rights may vary. Sv1xv (talk) 09:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Really? I thought that copyright requires the work to break the threshold of originality in almost all countries. Surely that is not the case with a couple of words set in a standard font on top of a public domain image? -- JovanCormac 15:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I know there's a type of typesetting copyright at least in the UK, where if you print a copy of Gulliver's Travels, with the exact text of an 1850 edition, no one can make an exact copy of your printing, even if you just dumped the text on the page. They'd have to retypeset it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
That's what I thought: At least in the UK. AFAIK, the UK with its "sweat of the brow" doctrine is just about the only country where originality is not a requirement for copyright. So the claim of "many countries" is almost certainly exaggerated Smile -- JovanCormac 07:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Actually, "originality" is their criteria, or maybe "skill and labour". I think it is often interpreted not really to mean "creative", but more along the lines of "not seen before" -- it is that interpretation which causes at least one scholar to speculate that signatures may be copyrightable there. The typesetting right is only 25 years I think, technically different than copyright. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
There is some originality in the typesetting of the cover, which may or may not be eligible for copyright, but it's best to remove the typesetting using image editing - we can help you with that if necessary, just leave a message for me or at the Commons:Graphic lab. Dcoetzee (talk) 22:01, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing file histories

en:File:CannabisLeaf.jpg and local File:Feuille de Cannabis.jpg are identical images uploaded by different users, but each uploader claims to be the creator of that image. The en: image was uploaded more than two years before the Commons image, so if one were taken from the other, Commons was taken from en:; but I'm concerned that perhaps both are taken from a third source. How should we resolve this? Nyttend (talk) 04:22, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Tineye finds other sources as well. — raeky (talk | edits) 05:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
My first reaction was to speedy both images, but that probably isn't productive. Stifle (talk) 15:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
It would be problematic, since they're used on A LOT of pages, most likely a template. — raeky (talk | edits) 04:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] re:

I don't know what a village pump is please send me what it is

A village pump is a pump in a village. -mattbuck (Talk) 19:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The term is used here because it is a traditional gathering place. - Jmabel ! talk 19:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] How do I fix the category?

On this Category:Category: Eumunida, the word "Category" is repeated, which puts it in a new category "Category:Category". Thanks, Mattisse (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

✓ Done --Túrelio (talk) 20:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Mattisse (talk) 20:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] PORN CONTENT

Is this permissible and if so why?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaved_genitalia

Yes, because Commons isn't censored. --The Evil IP address (talk) 21:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] October 31

[edit] Russian help needed

Hi. Can someone familiar with Russian browse the contributions of Жизель (talk · contributions)? Most or all images are from web sites and I cannot see the copyright there. Thanks! Wknight94 talk 02:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

As far as images sourced from sobory.ru go, the site states "Коммерческое использование изображений каталога без согласования с авторами запрещено" ("Commercial utilisation of catalogue images without the agreement of the authors is prohibited"). Man vyi (talk) 07:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
However, it looks like most of the images are old enough to be almost certainly public domain, so the catalogue's "prohibition" may be copyfraud. This probably bears some looking into. - Jmabel ! talk 19:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese ebook

In December 2007 a user load up an ebook in vietnamese, for instance File:Chuong157.gif - and about 50 other pages. All uncategorized. What can be done with these files? Best wishes Cholo Aleman (talk) 04:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Ick. If that one is representative, it is a) lacking any kind of proof of the license, and b) probably out of scope anyways -- pure text (even in .gif form) should not be uploaded here, but rather on projects like wikisource (if in fact the book is free). Usually scans of original documents are fine, but pure text like that not so much. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:40, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Sure, thanks, I will start a deletion request in the long run. I fear the uploader is long gone Cholo Aleman (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
There are pages with illustrations, eg File:Chuong152.gif, there appear to be 56 File:Chuongxxx.gif files --Tony Wills (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
These pages appear to be the same book as found here[1]. May not be the original source, but may give clues ("free" in the URL sounds hopeful :-). The site may be somewhat defunct. The page [2] was perhaps the home page. The site appears to be an internet service provider, maybe these are user files or free ebooks provided as a service. French and/or Vietnamese speakers might help here :-). --Tony Wills (talk) 10:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Also here [3], which has a note at the bottom "EYETECK.NET, Theo: Chương 15: Hiện tượng cảm ứng điện từ, Thông tin khoa Điện tử - Viễn thông, Trường Đại học Khoa học Tự nhiên TPHCM" which roughly translates as "Chapter 15: electromagnetic induction phenomenon, Electronic information science - Telecommunications, University of Natural Sciences HCMC" --Tony Wills (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
(and there was me thinking "chương" was someones name, whereas it seems to mean chapter ;-) --Tony Wills (talk) 10:59, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Maybe from this[4] university --Tony Wills (talk) 10:59, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect licence tagging + Unruly editor

Thelad101 (talk · contributions) has uploaded 5 scans of signatures under CC licenses: File:Guy de Maupasant Signature.png, File:Signature of Leo Tolstoy.jpg, File:Robert Burns Signature.jpg, File:Andrew Carnegie Signature.JPG, File:Chaim Weizmann Signature.JPG. Shouldn't these be tagged with {{PD-signature}} or {{PD-ineligible}}?

I would re-tag them myself, but the editor seems very unruly, making legal threats and avant garde legal interpretations of copyright law. I told the user as much. Maybe an admin can take a look at this situation, re-tag these images, and see how to deal with Thelad101?--Blargh29 (talk) 05:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Um... gently? :-) Yes, the uploader appears to have misconceptions about copyright, but they sincerely seem to believe that copyright licenses were being ignored. Even if not copyrightable, people who do valuable work like that often do want to be credited, and there is no reason not to -- sources don't have to be for copyright reasons only. He is correct in that if you make a modification of a valid CC-BY or CC-BY-SA work, you *should* link to the source (which I think was done), and it is also a good idea to credit the author explicitly as well (in addition to the author of the derivative portion). The only problem in this case was that the original could not have that license to begin with... making a scan of a work is not a derivative work, it is a copy, and it has the same copyright status as the original. If the original is public domain, then so is the scan, and it cannot be licensed differently, as the scanner is not the "author" and cannot hold the copyright. In the case of signatures, in most places (including the U.S.) they are probably uncopyrightable. In places where they might be, then the copyright would be held by the person making the signature, not the person making the scan. There is no urgent need to change licenses though, as they are fine to keep as they are, so there may not be much reason to pick a fight. Carl Lindberg (talk) 06:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I have issues with Thelad101 (talk · contributions)'s edits to this image File:Robert Burns Signature.svg, hes completely changed the author from Connormah (talk · contributions) to himself. Plus this site (http://www.adamshamilton.com) is a commercial site, another issue. Plus these images are {{PD-signature}} and his edits has no license! Many many issues. — raeky (talk | edits) 07:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Technically, per our current assumptions of UK law, the Robert Burns signature should be {{PD-old-100}}, not {{PD-signature}}. He can link to the commercial site if he is the uploader. Yes, changing the SVG's "authorship" is bad. I went and fixed that one. Carl Lindberg (talk) 08:25, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Privacy of people

Something is wrong when Commons:Deletion requests/File:Donauradweg.jpg ends in deletion of a very innocent image of practically unrecognizable cyclists, while Commons:Deletion requests/File:Burning Man 228 (241613953) crop.jpg is kept. In both cases the uploader was requested by subjects to remove the image. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 12:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think it just illustrates that it's different from one country to another. -- User:Docu at 12:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, something is wrong.... lets fix it! Lets make it mandatory to delete any file whenever anyone requests it. What? No? Ok, lets NEVER delete ANY photo when someone requests it. No? That doesn't work either? Drats! I guess we gotta judge this on a case-by-case basis then. --J.smith (talk) 15:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
@Pieter, though I wasn't involved in "Burning Man" case, I somehow fear that such decisions are too often based on a "that's your or the photographer's problem" attitude, that in the end is very bad for Commons. As I wrote in the rfd for the "Donauradweg" image, that per se would have posed likely no problem as of our written policies, that we can stubbornly stick to our principles and at the same time (sort of) spit in the contributors face, which will result in a far bigger damage to Commons than the deletion could ever have done. However, in the "Burning Man" case, the situation seems to be more complicated as the images are still available on Flickr which is strange if the claimed restrictions are true. --Túrelio (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe the one image which the photographer asked to be removed when he/she re-opened the nomination (not any of the others listed there) has indeed been removed from Flickr (as the photograph's subject also asked to have it removed). That was a tangled DR; lots of wide-reaching claims were made (such as all of Burning Man is a private place thus all photos must be removed) and a lot of people were reacting to that. I did argue several times though that the one, specific, re-opened image was a good case for removal though -- it was a CC-BY licensed Flickr image which someone else uploaded (perfectly fine), but the photographer and subject asked to have it removed, which I felt was a reasonable request -- but there were lots of unreasonable other arguments thrown in there. This thing is always a case-by-case situation, and since different admins always close, there will always be somewhat different decisions made. I felt the harm caused by the photo far outweighed its educational value, but some may disagree. Between the two, it does seem like the Burning Man one had better reasons for removal, but... there you go. Carl Lindberg (talk) 22:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Donauradweg was a fairly easy request nominated by the uploader. The Burning Man 228 request was nominated by an IP claiming to be the photographer, and was twisted up with the whole Burning Man mess. I didn't ask for D. to be deleted because of privacy; I asked for it to be deleted because it would make it easier for the contributor and there was no real need to keep it. I would have deleted the BM 228 picture on privacy rounds, but I see them as distinct cases.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Here's another case where the call wasn't listened even if another better picture was proposed in exchange of the deletion: Commons:Deletion requests/Image:YJacques.jpg. --TwoWings * to talk or not to talk... 22:56, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Personally, "proposed" pictures don't inspire me. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Upload the new picture, and I'd be much happier to agree to deletion of the older picture.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
OK. I'll see if he agrees to give the picture even without the deletion or promise of deletion of the other picture. --TwoWings * to talk or not to talk... 12:37, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Now a photo of a semi-professional model was deleted minutes after a kind of order from the Office... why does nobody delete the photo of the dancing woman at Burning Man? /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 19:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] TIF-File ?

I cannot open a file, File:98planwikipedia.tif - it is uncategorized. It starts Quicktime on my computer. Is there anybody out there who can understand it? Cholo Aleman (talk) 12:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why it tries to open it via Quicktime on your computer: the MIME type seems fine (Content-Type: image/tiff), the filename extension too, so it's probably something weird in the file associations on your computer. OTOH, the image is the same as File:Wiki-98plan.png with a shaded background; unfortunately, the thumbnailer cannot handle neither TIFF files, nor PNG files larger than 12.5 megapixel, so both images are currently unusable for Wikipedia. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
TIFF files are more for archival, not direct usage. I'm not sure I see a reason to have a TIFF though when we have a just-as-big PNG (which is unfortunately just too big, pixel-wise, to be renderable by Wikimedia). It appears to be a diagram for bus route 98 in Brussels -- it is the same information as the diagram on this page, but arranged completely differently. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
On some systems, Quicktime is set to handle TIFF files.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to all for your answers - I have added a category, that was my main intention. Cholo Aleman (talk) 05:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] licensing of these videos?

I took video of the musical fountain at the Bellagio hotel. It is my understanding that I have to remove the audio since it is some copyrighted American song. After doing that, is it ok to upload?

Secondly, I have video of my brother using a category:Microsoft Surface device. I know that screenshots of non-free software is not allowed. Is this the same with Surface? If so, then do all the images (like this one in this category need to be deleted?

Last question: If I take video of a dance performance at an event, am I allowed to upload that? It was a city sponsored outdoor event (Worldfest), though there was a $5 cost to get in. Photography and video-recording was allowed and encouraged. For example, something like this (assuming it's released under a free license? mahanga (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

On the fountain, if the song is gone... yes I think so. Pictures of the device itself should be fine... screenshots may be a problem, if the content is copyrighted. An argument for de minimis can be made for the one you point out. Video of a dance performance... hrrrrm. Choreography can be copyrighted, so I'm not sure. For an event like that, it may be OK. Depending on the country, there could be performer's rights for both dancers and musicians. And the music could be an issue there too, unless known to be an old song. Video can really explode the possible complications, and can be different between countries. Carl Lindberg (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for the response. Sorry, I didn't link to the files I was referring to. Here they are.

File:Peterbilt_application_on_Microsoft_Surface.ogv and File:Bellagio fountain feature.ogv. The dance performance was in the U.S. I'll remove the audio just to be cautious. mahanga (talk) 00:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

The U.S. doesn't really have performer's rights. Choreography is a possibility, but for something like that (especially where photography was encouraged) it's probably not worth enough to sweat it. The song could be an issue depending on who wrote it and when. Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Category merge

Could someone please merge these two categories? Category:Created with Persistence of Vision, Category:Povray. Thanks. SharkD (talk) 23:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 1

[edit] Reclaiming public domain images copied from Wikipedia

I have been an editor at Wikipedia for a few years who has uploaded a number of photos into the public domain. A while ago I noticed some of these were being copied to the commons and my original was deleted as a duplicate. Now that I have an account here is there any way to reclaim these under my commons username so my contributions and gallery are accurate. - Shiftchange (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe you can upload a new version of the files, and they will then show up in your gallery. What I don't know is whether you have to change a bit or two to get the new version to upload. Powers (talk) 00:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Just fix the name link in the "Author" field. There's no need to reupload anything. It doesn't really matter whether they appear in your upload log or not. --Latebird (talk) 14:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
I thought Shiftchange was talking about the gallery feature. Powers (talk) 14:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] uncategorized japanese Symbols

I need some help, because I am not fluent in japanese :) - in the uncategorized files there are some symbols used in the japanese WP, see for instance: File:千葉県我孫子市市章.svg File:新潟県新発田市市章.svg File:神奈川県川崎市市章.svg File:群馬県前橋市市章.svg - can someone add an english description and categorize it? Best wishes Cholo Aleman (talk) 05:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] drawings for children - copyrights

There is a series of drawings (15 files) for children/teens about law-making in the US, example: File:Bill law begin.gif - they are used in a subpage in the english WP, two of them are in the process for regular deletion for copyright reasons, see the gallery: [5] - if two of them have no proper copyright, they should be treated all the same Cholo Aleman (talk) 10:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! - I have not seen this. When will the discussion be closed? And what are proper categories (if not deleted)? Cholo Aleman (talk) 07:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Concerns: my three uploaded paintings/subcategory:Painters by country/PainTers from LUXEMBOURG/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS..

Hello,

I saw the represention concerning my file in the subcategory:painters by country-painters from Luxembourg and I have the pleasure to announce you that I am very glade. However, I have to declare that the three uploaded and represented paintings are my own works and I still am the owner of these works.Indeed, concerning the painting named:Wintry symphony I committed a mistake that has to be redressed knowing that this painting as well as the other both had never been presented elsewhere other.Concerning the field:PERMISSION I marked sometimes "none".Or,being the owner I could mark:PERMISSION: LINKELS Josy"JOLI" and/or see below "licence attributed".How could these items be redressed?-When could links to other wikis be created —Preceding unsigned comment added by LINKELS Josy (talk • contribs) 1. November 2009, 19:09 Uhr (UTC)

[edit] November 2

[edit] Speeches

Wich is the copyright status for audio recordings of people saying something? Surely, interviews or quotes from radio or TV programs may be as copyrighted as screenshot images, but what about political speeches, government announces and other such talkings wich were not "published"? (meaning, not being recorded or generated specifically for some audiovisual media product). Can we consider them to be ineligible for copyright, or wait the usual terms? Belgrano (talk) 00:09, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

If the words were written down beforehand (usual for political speeches), then the author owns a copyright there. If not, at least in the U.S., then I'm not sure there is any copyright in the words. There is a separate copyright in the recording itself, owned by whoever made it. In some countries, performer's rights may come into play (in the U.S., performer's rights I think are limited to permission to make the recording in the first place). Carl Lindberg (talk) 00:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
This is a complex area of the law, and a few cases come to mind. One involves Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" speech. Dr. King publicly performed his speech, and even provided written copies of it to the press to aid them in reporting the event (so that newspapers could go to press the same day the speech was delivered). He later registered the work with the U.S. copyright office as unpublished. CBS tried to claim the work should have been counted as having been published without a copyright notice. See w:Estate_of_Martin_Luther_King,_Jr.,_Inc._v._CBS,_Inc.. While the case was settled so there is no binding precedent, intermediate court rulings make it plain that the copyright would have been upheld. See also w:Bootleg_recording#Laws_and_court_rulings where it is made plain that according to WIPO treaty and U.S. federal law, bootleg recordings are illegal, even if they are based on live performances where the performers are ad-libbing, that is performing material that they are inventing on the spot. In the case of politicians, you must confront this question: are they speaking as a government official (ie an official press release) or as a private individual (ie if you happen to catch a few words from a politician while he is doing his grocery shopping). This is further confused by the fact that U.S. law generally does not allow copyright in unfixed works. While it seems confusing, in my opinion (as especially given how cautious Commons usually is) it is a very simple matter. As Carl said, anything that is based on previously composed work would share the copyright of the previous work. As for work that is not previously fixed, Commons is extremely cautious, even deleting photos where for instance people are on stage talking and there is a projector set up to help the audience in the back see. Such a work is not fixed under U.S. law and would not seem to be copyrighted, but Commons deletes these photos nonetheless.
Which brings me to the second part of your question. Government works. Often this question is brought up in the context of re-using work from C-SPAN. See [6] for a breakdown of this. As Carl points out, it all depends on who owns the camera. If the U.S. government owns the camera, and is broadcasting federal employees doing their work, it's public domain. If C-SPAN owns the camera, then the recording is copyrighted by them. I know all I did was generate more questions but I hope I've pointed you in the right direction. -Nard the Bard 00:46, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
One thing to bear in mind is that the published/unpublished question, which was crucial to the King decision (which had been written down beforehand), is irrelevant for works first published/created after 1978 -- so for modern stuff it really doesn't matter. Fixation still does though. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Flag of Afganistan?

Flag of Afghanistan 1996-1997.svg.png

Is that a joke, error, or a real flag? --Jarekt (talk) 02:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

According to http://flagspot.net/flags/af_talib.html#1996 it appears the Taliban did use an all-white flag for a year. So, not an error. Not sure if counts as a flag of Afghanistan though. Carl Lindberg (talk) 02:20, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
According to w:History_of_Afghanistan_since_1992, the Taliban declared themselves the government of Afghanistan in 1996 (and controlled enough that it wasn't an absurd claim) and was recognized as such by Pakistan in 1997.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
It's a duplicate of File:Flag of Afghanistan 1996-1997.png - although ,strictly, not an exact duplicate, I think we could make an exception in this case ;-) --Tony Wills (talk) 09:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
We also have File:Flag of Afghanistan 1996-1997.svg which, of course, scales much better ;-) Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:45, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese culture and tangled categories

I need some help disentangling a few categories. I don't see exactly how this should work out, so I'm bringing it here for discussion. If there is a more appropriate forum, I'd be glad to move the discussion there.

We have, appropriately, two different categories Category:Culture of Japan (for cultural things that are geographically in Japan) and Category:Japanese culture (for things that would generally be considered culturally Japanese, regardless of where in the world they take place). So, for example, a Japanese festival in Seattle should be under Category:Japanese culture, but not Category:Culture of Japan; a Western-style symphony in Japan should be under Category:Culture of Japan but not Category:Japanese culture.

In principle, great. In practice, this has not been followed well. So under Category:Culture of Japan we have Category:Traditional dance of Japan and under Category:Japanese culture we have Category:Folk dance of Japan. Now, I would imagine that "folk dance" should be a subcat of "traditional dance" (not everything traditional is "folk": for example, it might specifically be courtly). But none of the images in Category:Folk dance of Japan were taken in Japan, so they don't belong indirectly under Category:Culture of Japan. Further, many of the images in Category:Traditional dance of Japan were not taken in Japan, and it has an entire subcategory Category:Bon odori (the dances associated with the Bon festival) which I'd expect belongs under Category:Japanese culture, not Category:Culture of Japan. Yet further, Category:Seattle Bon Odori, which I carefully didn't place under Category:Bon odori (because despite its name it is a general Bon festival, not something specific to the dance) was nonetheless added by someone else to that category. Oh, and to complicate things further, there is a Category:Festivals of Japan outside Japan that is, paradoxically, under Category:Culture of Japan but not under Category:Japanese culture, which is precisely backward, as far as I can see.

I'm sure there are many further examples of this mess. As I say, I don't have a specific suggestion to fix this, but at this point it is an utter mess, and ideas would be welcome. Perhaps this has been more successfully worked through for other countries, and there is an approach that should be imitated? - Jmabel ! talk 06:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I think that it is an illusion that you can maintain two separate categories Category:Culture of Japan (for cultural things that are geographically in Japan) and Category:Japanese culture (for outside Japan) with such subtle differences, properly categorised. Moreover, many (if not most) internal aspects will eventually link to the international items. --Foroa (talk) 07:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
So would you suggest merging Category Japanese culture into Category:Culture of Japan and having it cover both what is geographically in Japan and what is culturally Japanese? That leads me to maybe a different suggestion:
Any objections? Do I need to bring this to Commons:Categories for discussion first? I'd rather not, because that process can take months. - Jmabel ! talk 17:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I think that a {{rename|Culture of Japan abroad|reason:less confusing name}} on Category:Japanese culture might be quicker (and less intrusive than merging) and more efficient. Once it is renamed, you can clean it up and arrange it properly. --Foroa (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
No, that would do little or nothing about the mess. As I say, the problem I am trying to address includes the fact that most of what is in Category:Japanese culture is about things inside Japan. I think it would be better to get it all into one place—Category:Culture of Japan—then start identifying what is outside Japan. Or, possibly, do it in the opposite order: first build Category:Culture of Japan abroad and its subcategories (under Category:Culture of Japan), then merge Category:Japanese culture into Category:Culture of Japan, because in practice there has been little distinction made, whatever the theory. - Jmabel ! talk 03:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I know, but after creating the new category, I can merge it as the old name "Japanese culture" makes no sense anymore. --Foroa (talk) 06:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion also the two cats Category:Culture of Japan and Category:Japanese culture are way to similiar and should be merged. I am fine with an additional subcat of Japanese culture outside of Japan or similar. BTW, thanks to Jmabel for dropping me a note. -- Chris 73 (talk) 20:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] contributions by user:misatur

all the contribution of this user seem to be out of scope , see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Misatur - he has been told this two times (not from me), but he still is loading up new files, just now. What to do? Cholo Aleman (talk) 07:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

They have marked a good portion of them for deletion themselves, so they are probably listening. Perhaps a Spanish speaker could engage with them. Apart from the "upskirt" versions, I don't see why photos of skirts are out of scope (even if the model is not professional and probably male). To be more generally useful a better description would help (eg are these actual styles from when mini-skirts were first introduced, or just recent copies). --Tony Wills (talk) 08:50, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Titanic Engineers' Memorial, Southampton

It was sculpted by Thomas Sharp from London. Anyone here who finds his livedates and his lemma, because there are some more Thomas Sharps around. Thanks 195.93.60.2 20:11, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think that Thomas Sharp made the sculpture of Viscount Palmerston elsewhere in Southampton, which was erected in 1869. I found a reference to him being a "Royal Academy Silver Medallist" in 1830, and living at 27 Cartwright Gardens from 1859-61[7]. No idea about birth/death dates, and was not able to find who made the Titanic Engineer's Memorial, which was unveiled in 1914. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi Clindberg, thanks. I have found an official site of Southhampton [8]. It claims: It was designed by Messrs. Whitehead & Son. Should it be categorized as Category:Whitehead & Son or is a more exact author possible? Regards Mutter Erde 78.55.8.38 10:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
That is a pretty generic name; there have been lots of Whitehead & Son companies over the years (google finds a ton). I could see putting it in the category description page, and mentioning it in the image pages, but beyond that it doesn't seem like anything else should be done unless more defining information on that company is found. Carl Lindberg (talk) 06:04, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi Clindberg, what do you think about Category:Joseph Whitehead (sculptor) as here in en:Horse Memorial or Category:Joseph Whitehead & Sons for the whole family? This would be no longer generic, or? Regards, Mutter Erde 78.55.101.130 23:33, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 3

[edit] Issue of deletion for Files used cross projects

[I am not sure of the exact place to start the discussion, so I will start it here, and watch for recommendations of a more appropriate forum]

I am an admin at Wikisource, and we encourage files to be stored at Commons. There is an issue where files that we use at enWS are deleted here, and as a site we have no indication that it is going to occur. Generally this will be images that are taken from .djvu files that are already on Commons. At the moment the only means to know if something has happened is to watch the logs and see where s:User:CommonsDelinker notifies. So then we have to come over here, address the admin who has deleted, ask for it back, and then go through a series of fixes. This is all VERY REACTIVE, and there surely is a better way. [Note that I am not talking about my personal responsibility, I am looking for a whole of wiki approach]

Suggestion for a pro-active approach. I would have thought that it was possible for there to be a means where files that are used on other wikis, and have been nominated / listed for deletion (here) are able to be listed on a file on the wiki of interest (first choice) or otherwise on a specific and respective page here (second choice). My reasoning is that I would have thought that systemically it is easy for a bot to identify a file when it is nominated, and if it is being used on our family of wikis to then make some sort of notification/listing. That would then enable each wiki to have the responsibility for knowing that its files here are at risk, and pushes the p+ve responsibility to those wikis to manage their assets.

Really happy to hear opinions, though do feel that it is high time that we look to an innovative solution, rather than having to run around and apply a treatment after the fact. As the supposed guardian of the files, I feel that Commons needs to be part of the solution. Thx. Billinghurst (talk) 02:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I would point out that this is what the Commons Ticker used to do. I'm not sure why that stopped operating (I wasn't around when it went offline), but it did exactly what your request is for. I'm not sure if the ticker can be revived easily or whether we should start from square 1. From the perspective of Commons, I certainly agree that something should be done - I'd much rather editors on other projects get notified of problems and fix them, without waiting for CommonsDelinker to "notify" by removing the deleted image.--Nilfanion (talk) 02:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I think that's a great idea, what Commons Ticker used to do. I agree with Billinghurst in that something should be done, however, I'm not sure how a bot works much less how to get an interproject bot to work. Killiondude (talk) 21:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Alcoholic beverages

Hello. There is some cleaning to do behind the bar Smile, in the photographs in Category:Alcoholic beverages. Any help to categorize them will be appreciated. Thanks, Jack ma (talk) 08:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Revised image not reflect to article

The height of en:Tokyo Sky Tree is altered to 634m from 610m in design and in under construction. The image file File:Tokyo Sky Tree - Silhouette & Cross section.jpg is up dated to 634m [9]. This update image, however not reflected to article such as en:Tokyo Sky Tree, ja:東京スカイツリー and other articles. Can anyone help, or remedy the trouble.--Namazu-tron (talk) 22:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Please see en:Wikipedia:Purge. Walter Siegmund (talk) 06:16, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 4

[edit] Overwrite or switch?

There are used many maps as File:Treaty of Lisbon ratification.svg and many other maps or diagrams. I think, it is no good idea to overwrite old versions. The older versions should remain usable for illustrate of progress. I think, for switch of images, we can use only one switch-redirect, not overwriting of the old images. What's your opinion? Can somebody bring in some solutions (suitable switch templates) and positive examples? --ŠJů (talk) 00:47, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

The current file history of that map resembles one of an article in Wikipedia.
If a minor error of the initial version is fixed, I think it could be overwritten. If it's update for a given date of reference, a new filename should be chosen. In any case, the map should be renamed to include a date of reference. -- User:Docu at 02:07, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
I think all these maps should be deleted; they are completely useless today. Progress can't be illustrated usefully unless it's a GIF animation, which none of them is. No information on the history of the ratification progress will be lost, since e.g. the article called Ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon contains all the vital dates in its table. - Ssolbergj (talk) 14:41, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Choosing a new filename is a bad idea as that would mean updating the file name in all projects using this image. If you want to have versions with timestamp, you can copy them from the version history, but the main map should always be overwritten so that the current status is displayed. Regards, -- ChrisiPK (Talk|Contribs) 14:48, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
This assumes that the most recent uploader went through all articles using the image and updated the descriptions. Obviously, this is not the case as not even the file description page was updated. Currently, the present version of the image is incorrectly used in some articles and wikinews articles can't be updated to fix it. -- User:Docu at 17:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

GIF animations are very little suitable for articles. Such articles cannot be printed completely, an user cannot bring a specific stage to a stop and look it etc. A deleting of old images is extra-bad idea. Do we have to delete images from 19-th century as soon as we get some actual image of the same place? It's a nonsense. The history exists for ever, it don't disappear. There are many articles, news etc. which may need only some chosen stage(s) to accent. The last version displays only area of the EU, it says no more anything about the ratification process of one specific treaty. The basic principle of Commons is that many files should be assembled here and users can choose whichever of them, not that we choose instead of them. --ŠJů (talk) 03:50, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

There exists absolutely simple way how treatment actualization of all wikiproject-pages which use a given image. We can use a permanent name of redirect-page in all articles through all projects. Afterwards there suffices only to change a direction-name at this one redirect-page (see an example) and all concerned articles will change without editing of their source codes. The only problem remains that a cache management is very slow and unreliable here but the same problem concerns the overwrited files as well.

What about change File:Treaty of Lisbon ratification.svg to a pure redirect which links to name of actual version of the map (e. g. File:Treaty of Lisbon ratification-2009-09-23.svg) and the link can be changed to File:Treaty of Lisbon ratification-2009-09-27.svg etc.? (File:Treaty of Lisbon ratification-2009-23-09.svg exists allerady.) --ŠJů (talk) 04:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] changed data

Here is a file, where the foto was changed from a cathedral in Mexico to a cave... File:Catedral.jpg - I am to new to look through. Can it be reverted to give some sensemaking data? Cholo Aleman (talk) 07:43, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Reverted the image. If you don't see it now, please clear your browser cache. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 08:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
And for the ones interested in the cave photo, see File:Catedral de Las Güixas.jpg. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 08:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to Ianezz and Turelio for the prompt corrections Cholo Aleman (talk) 09:05, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
However, I fear this nice cave photo wasn't shot by the uploader and will likely have to go. --Túrelio (talk) 09:23, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Indeed. Found larger version here. Uploader seems to have taken the thumbnail on Flickr. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 14:24, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Tagged it accordingly. --Túrelio (talk) 14:27, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Old newspapers first published in the USA

Hello you all!

I have found this image on Commons [10], that is in the public domain because it was published in the United States between 1923 and 1963 with a copyright notice, and its copyright was not renewed. Well, I plan then to upload some images of the Sputnik satellite [11] that were released in US newspapers in 1957. This might be the same case as it is in my example stated above, isn't it? Michael 09:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Who created the Sputnik images? Where they first published in the USA? More information is required to decide if they can be published. Sv1xv (talk) 09:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If image was originated/first published in Soviet Union, USA law is irrelevant in this case. --EugeneZelenko (talk) 15:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Many U.S. newspapers did not renew copyrights for a while; you can see more specific information here and here. As noted above though, that would only be for pictures first published in the United States; for pictures first published in foreign countries, we would follow those laws. Presumably the Sputnik pictures were first published in the Soviet Union, so the U.S. renewal rules are irrelevant. Carl Lindberg (talk) 05:26, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] IUCN distribution maps

Hi. I am not exactly new to Commons, but I have not produced many files yet. So, I have a question that perhaps you can answer. IUCN has ArcGIS shapefiles [12] for many species. I can produce some nice maps from these fairly quickly, but I am not sure if I can upload them to Commons. The metadata [13] says that the data should not be used for commercial purposes. Any insight would be welcomed. GoEThe (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I believe that the maps would be a derived work of the dataset, and works not allowing commercial use are not allowed on Commons. -- IANEZZ  (talk) 15:04, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If I made a trace around the range border by hand, would it be considered derived work? Are there any WikiProject, standards or written procedures on how people are producing range maps? GoEThe (talk) 15:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If you contact them and ask for permission to use the data to create maps for Wikipedia projects, and ask them if derivative maps from the data you create can be licensed under one of Common's free licenses, then OTRS could be established for the maps. Having these maps would be a valuable asset to the project I think, so it's worth contacting them to ask at least. — raeky (talk | edits) 16:36, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
One step ahead of you, Raeky ;), I am waiting for their reply now. Thanks for the suggestion! GoEThe (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Scan of old photograph from a new book?

I was wondering if it's ok to scan a 1912 photograph that was published in a book that came out in 1996? mahanga (talk) 14:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

It depends. If the 1996 book was the first publishing of the work, which has not been previously published at all, the publisher would receive (in the EU, at least) a so-called publication right, which is practically a shortened version of copyright. However, if the photograph has been published before, then the publication date of the book you use as a source does not matter much. In that case, the only relevant thing is the copyright status of the original photograph itself (which might be PD-US, PD-Old, but also it can be still copyrighted, e.g. if first published in Europe, and its author died later than 1938). --Mormegil (talk) 17:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
If the photo was already in public domain, it does not receive new copyright just by being republished by someone else. In fact, it means precisely that anyone is free to do whatever they want with the image, including using it in a book. We only need the original photo to have been published before 1923, or whatever the corresponding national law sets, but it's not required from us to get a copy of that 1912 newspaper and scan it Belgrano (talk) 02:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Duplicated LangSelect script

Do we really need separate MediaWiki:Common.js/LangSelect.js and MediaWiki:Multilingual description.js? They are not exactly identical, but the differences are really small… --Mormegil (talk) 17:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Unknown publication dates

There are some licence tags where the author (and his date of death) is not the key point to determine if it is or not public domain, but the publication date. For example, {{PD-1923}}, {{Anonymous-EU}}, {{PD-Algeria}}, {{PD-AR-Photo}}, {{PD-Brazil-media}}, {{PD-India}} among others. Ideally, one should upload the image stating such first publication. But what if the image, despite being reused, has an unknown origin (or at least unknown for the uploader) but even so it can be reasoned that it was made within the time period required? For example, if a photo in a given country needs to have been published X years ago, then a press photo of a person in that country that died more than X years ago would be PD regardless of wherever it was published. Similar reasons could be provided for photos of certain events or under certain circumstances that only took place within a determined time frame that fits completely in the PD side (for example, a music band that was active only from A to B years).

It may be replied that, even if a photo has all the typical traits of a press photo (profesional design, signs of printing, place or circumstances beyond common people to be) someone could have produced the work, keep it in a closet, and only recently publish it. But is that a real possibily, or an exaggerated one? Belgrano (talk) 17:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

It is a possibility, but it happens infrequently. I recently took possession of a 1931 anonymous and unpublished photo and I uploaded it on Flickr, so theoretically I have a 25 year publisher's right according to greek copyright laws. Usually it happens when a library acquires an estate with unpublished old photos and documents and starts publishing them. Generally I believe that this particular risk of copyright violation is exagerated on Commons. Sv1xv (talk) 19:44, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
What I said to Belgrano in Commons:Café (in Spanish) about this issue in a discussion started by user Ferbr1 is that not all pictures taken from press photographers are finally printed in the newspaper (there are space concerns). So we do not know whether the pictures he uploaded to Commons from the website http://www.peronvencealtiempo.com.ar/juandomingoperon/imagenes/fotos_de_peron.html (and finally erased by himself) are really scanned from a newspaper, book or other publication if he does not cite the source. Best regards, Alpertron (talk) 17:22, 5 November 2009 (UTC) (I edited this paragraph in order to clarify the issues).
Whatever discussions (and feuds) you had with User:Belgrano on another page are not relevant to a general question about possible copyright issues of unpublished old images. Sv1xv (talk) 15:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

The problem with the "it was never published" hypotetic scenario is that, if such case was true, how would they have arrived to massive internet distribution otherwise? And consider for example this image: if it was never published, how is it that it shows so clear halftoning? Belgrano (talk) 18:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Each particular case is different. The uploader should try to sort it out and must provide some evidence (or at least some pointers) about the date of first publication. BTW, it was a very impolite action by you and by User:Alpertron to start a general discussion here and ask the opinions of other editors, when your actual intention is to lure them to your feud. Sv1xv (talk) 18:22, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Actually, I bringed the topic here because I understood that the issue is bigger than originally stated, involving many licence templates and not just 1. I mentioned that photo as a mere example of question I'm making: if all realistic analisis (death of the portrayed people, circumstances unreachable for casual photographers, print characteristics, etc.) all point it to be a press photo within the time period needed for it to be public domain, is it needed to find the exact source? Any other example would do: if the one of Peron raises any problem, consider for example a photo of Roosevelt in the white house with government ministers tagged with 1923. Belgrano (talk) 18:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
In this case, instead of posting a general question, you should have stated the actual problem and listed the pictures with uncertain date of publication. Sv1xv (talk) 06:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Transclusion of deletion lists

What is going on with Commons:Deletion requests/2009/09 and some of the other months with open deletion debates? Some of the days for the latter half of the month are not being transcluded. SpinningSpark 21:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Looks like we're hitting parser limits:
NewPP limit report
Preprocessor node count: 33733/1000000
Post-expand include size: 2048000/2048000 bytes <-------
Template argument size: 278514/2048000 bytes
Expensive parser function count: 1/500
Multichill (talk) 21:26, 4 November 2009 (UTC)
Can I suggest in that case that they are transcluded in weekly lists instead of monthly lists so that this does not happen. By the way, it looks like you do not have nearly enough admins to deal with this backlog - it goes back many months. SpinningSpark 08:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 5

[edit] Sidebar help

I've tried asking on the sidebar discussion page, but received no help. I've been trying to find information on translating the sidebar dependent on the user's default language but can't find any decent information. All people ever say is use "$wgForceUIMsgAsContentMsg" which means absolutely nothing for me and other people who are not experts. Where can I get more information on making my own wiki behave the way this wiki does. For example I want my wiki to have a Korean sidebar if someone changes their default language to Korean as well as automatically trying to find a Korean version of the page and linking that page first, otherwise just going to the English page. For example "Welcome" gets changed to "환영합니다" on the sidebar and links to Commons:환영합니다. Help would be greatly appreciated. --Bluesoju (talk) 01:24, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, as they said… You need to add a line setting $wgForceUIMsgAsContentMsg into the LocalSettings.php file in your wiki installation. See the linked documentation at mediawiki.org. On Commons, we use
$wgForceUIMsgAsContentMsg = array(
        // Sidebar
        'mainpage',
        'portal-url',
        'sitesupport-url',
        'village pump-url',
        'welcome-url',

        // Other
        'contact-url',
        'privacypage',
        'aboutpage',
        'disclaimerpage',
        'copyright',
        'recentchangestext',
        'licenses',
        'upload-url',
        'helppage', # https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5925
    );
--Mormegil (talk) 09:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I have seen the linked documentation but it's not really specific. I for example want to know how does it fetch the text for "Village pump" in other languages like Korean and Japanese, where are those strings exactly stored for each language? For example Village pump is "사랑방" in Korean (with link to Commons:사랑방) and 井戸端 (with link to Commons:井戸端) in Japanese. Where are these titles and urls set for each language? Thanks --Bluesoju (talk) 03:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
That is exactly the contents of the MediaWiki:Sidebar definition. It could contain e.g.
navigation
   * mainpage|mainpage-description
Which means there would be a heading defined at MediaWiki:Navigation(possibly with /en), and below it, link defined by MediaWiki:Mainpage(/en), which has caption defined in MediaWiki:Mainpage-description(/en). --Mormegil (talk) 16:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] 1945 World War 2 Photo

I have a photo of my dad, William Bee Ravenel III, that was taken in Germany at the close of WW2. I know the German photographer's name, but I'm unable to discover anything about him. I have the only copy of this photo. What is the proper way for me to file attribution for uploading?Vermont Ferret (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

According to this it's not in the public domain, thus can't be uploaded without permission of the photographer. — raeky (talk | edits) 17:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
If it is a portrait commissioned your father, I would assume that your father also had acquired the copyright. /Pieter Kuiper (talk) 18:07, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Not necessarily - most, if not all, professional photographers - in the States at least - reserve the copyright to the photo (to ensure you order your reprints/Christmas cards from them). --Philosopher Let us reason together. 19:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Limits of the PD-Art tag

I know that the {{PD-Art}} license is restricted to two dimensional works, excluding "anything that could cast a shadow." But where precisely is that line drawn? Specifically, I would like to upload an image of a portion of this—not the bas-relief, just the etched-and-painted section at the top. I think there are Rembrandts that cast more shadows than those etchings, but as this probably counts as sculpture rather than painting I want to be certain. A. Parrot (talk) 17:32, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Etched or not, I'd say those are two-dimensional. Powers (talk) 20:40, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
The etchings at the top are most likely okay. Dcoetzee (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 6

[edit] Find the right name for a new category

Example of Enfeu

Hi,

In France, we have a kind of tombs which are located inside walls of churches. They are named "Enfeus". We hav not found english translation for this.

We want to create a category for them, but with what name ?

  • Enfeus ?
  • Burial niches ?
  • The right translation, if it exists ?
  • Other ?

If you have any idea, please tell us.

Sémhur (talk) 11:05, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


Just pick one. Categories are easy to rename. If someone finds a better one later, he/she will simply suggest to rename it. -- User:Docu at 15:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
"Enfeu" seems to be very rare term. I couldn't get any online translation for "enfeu" into english or german. In case this kind of tomb does exist in the anglosaxon world, there should be a word for it. Might be good to wait for some more input from english-native speakers. If there's no really common english word for it, I would prefer the descriptive term (your 2nd one), because an unknown term will likely not be used and found. --Túrelio (talk) 16:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
I don't agree with Túrelio. 1st this is a mulitlanguage portal for media, used in hundreds of native languages. Enfeus is much easier to understand, to read then many other non latin character based names of categories and articles. 2nd, an origin name is much better then an descriptive one, furthermore you can redirect a) for example "burial niches" or "Wandnische (?)" to this cat and b) you can use a description in different languages in the head of this cat as well. 3rd and last, how many readers come to a page or even a cat by typing the name ? 1% ? I think 1 of a million hits fits better. The mostly used way is going to hyperlinks - that means the name itself is not so much important (so you can of course use english descr) its much more nessesary to put in right categories, i.E. Walls, Churches. or what ever - only my 1/2 penny NobbiP 17:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
Try en:Loculus (architecture) or search there for "burial niche". So Loculi or burial niches. --Foroa (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] invitation to category:Collaborative work

Dear friends;

I kindly invite you to participate at the development of a new game at category:Collaborative work. Please take a look at the related talk page. You might be interested on some card tricks. Just look at Medias (examples). Best regards
‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 11:50, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] File:Clean.JPG

File:Clean.JPG (NSFW!) is the first hit for the search term "clean". I'm unconvinced that this is ideal. Perhaps it could be renamed to something more specific, at least. Rd232 (talk) 20:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Moved, thanks. –Juliancolton | Talk 01:51, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] November 7

Retrieved from "http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump"
In Wikipedia