File talk:Coat of arms of Libya (1977–2011).svg

Inscription is could be wrong

Only one of three linked sources is still available - and even that one only in web.archive.org... Anyway, it seems that the hawk was really looking to the left side, however, the inscription must be wrong. First, the mentioned source does not show any inscription at all. Second, my own books clearly show the inscription "Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", not "Federation of Arab Republics". (The federation was abolished in 1977). Please correct check it! --Roxanna (talk) 23:02, 16 June 2017 (UTC) --Roxanna (talk) 09:14, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

User:Roxanna: The books I have show اتحاد الجمهوريات العربية -- "Guide to the Flags of the World" by Mauro Talocci, revised and edited by Whitney Smith (ISBN 0-688-01141-1) and "Banderas y Escudos del Mundo EASA" (ISBN 84-599-1599-3 ). I really don't know how much trust I'd place in on-line sources. The Federation (or actually "Union") was a pet project of Khaddafi's, and he chose to keep its memory alive (see the Coat of arms of Libya article)... AnonMoos (talk) 05:09, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, one golden rules is: the wikipedia is not a source for wikipedia. Gaddafi erased all memories and federation symbols in 1977 and my "Taschenlexikon Flaggen und Wappen" (pocket dictionary "Flags and Coat of arms", Bibliographisches Institut Leipzig 1982) as well as my "Flaggen und Wappen der Welt" ("Flags and Coat of arms of the world", Bertelsmann Gütersloh 1992) clearly show the Jamahiriya-inscription. Why the state should be renamed and the flag changed if not the COA; too? I am sure you know that to mention the federation after 1977 is not logical at all. You made a mistake and I am sure you know it. Otherwise the question is: which year are your books from? and: which year do your books actually describe? 1973-1977? If 1986: are you sure there is written اتحاد الجمهوريات العربية? Not maybe الاتحاد الأفريقي العربي? --Roxanna (talk) 07:10, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

One more source with Jamahiriya-inscription:

• Munzinger-Archiv: Internationales Handbuch, Zeitarchiv, Ravensburg 1989

--Roxanna (talk) 07:16, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

"Guide to the Flags of the World" by Mauro Talocci, revised and edited by Whitney Smith, is from 1982, while "Banderas y Escudos del Mundo EASA" is from 1986. But what's more important than the year is that they both show a green shield corresponding to the green flag. If they were reporting a pre-1977 coat of arms, it would not have a plain green shield. I'm not even sure what الاتحاد الأفريقي العربي would mean (the "Arab African Union"? — what is that?), but it's not what is included in the two books I mentioned. If Khaddafi changed the inscription in the late 1980s, that needs to be documented, but all the good evidence I have access to is that in the immediate aftermath of the Sadat visit to Jerusalem, Khaddafi junked the Federation of Arab Republics flag, but kept the coat of arms in a modified form (since it had been one of his pet projects). AnonMoos (talk) 08:51, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Alright, please let's work together:

• Yes, Arab African Union, it was the name for the Libyan-Moroccian federation from 1984 to 1986. But it was just an idea because of the publishing year 1986. Maybe you just read the first and last word, Union and Arab, I thought you made a mistake. I am sorry. Otherwise, in fact I never heard that Gaddafi renamed his state during this time. Let us forget this.
• The green shield is really an interesting fact. I also see it in my 1992 book but not in the 1980s. Let us try to find out more about it.
• Please let me ask: Into which direction the hawk is looking in your two books?
• Summarized we have three sources with the Jamahiriya-inscription between 1982 and 1992 and two sources with the federation-inscription between 1982 and 1986. We need to find more sources.

--Roxanna (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

1) Khaddafi had a lot of projects and grandiose schemes. The "Federation of Arab Republics" was the only one which even affected the realm of flags — Libya, Egypt, and Syria all changed their flags — though of course it didn't affect practical governance. The others (which didn't even affect flags) were much less serious.

2) If what is in your sources doesn't show a plain green shield, then it's not a plausible candidate to be the Libyan coat of arms of Libya from 1977-2011, since it doesn't match the Libyan flag from 1977-2011. It may be something else, but it's almost impossible that it could be the "Coat of arms of Libya (1977-2011)". For that reason and others, I doubt whether there's a real conflict of sources in any very meaningful sense...

3) The words "left" and "right" are very awkward in this context (the words of heraldic blazoning "dexter" and "sinister" have a much more standardized and unambiguous meaning), but the eagle in the books is facing the same way as in the image File:Coat of arms of Libya (1977-2011).svg. There are some deviations in the visual appearance -- the legs and tail are separately visible in the book version, there's no wreath (or whatever that is) in the leg-and-tail area, and the scroll is gold on white, not light yellow on brown... AnonMoos (talk) 01:59, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

shield and direction

Well, thank you for your answer although it does not yet help enough:

1. Green shield: my 1982 and 1989 books shows the CoA without green shield, the 1992 book (Flaggen und Wappen der Welt" - "Flags and Coat of arms of the world" - Bertelsmann Gütersloh, 1992)is with a green shield - by the way: not only the shield is green in 1992; the laurel wreath is green, too
2. Inscription: two books (1982 and 1989) show the Jamahiriya-inscription, the 1992 books shows the federation-inscription
3. Left/right: what I mean you can see below in the three images: in all three books the hawk is looking to the right side

--Roxanna (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

• 
  The eagle of Saladin is always looking to the left side
• 
  This hawk is looking to the left side
• 
  The hawk of the Quraish is usually looking to the right side

So everything here is still inconclusive. To find out what is the truth we still need more sources. --Roxanna (talk) 10:16, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

One more source (Roberto Remo Bisso, Neiva Moreira: Guia do Terceiro Mundo, p. 240. Editora Terceiro Mundo Ltd., Rio de Janeiro 1984) - inscription with federation, shield is not green, hawk is looking to the right side... --Roxanna (talk) 13:42, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

---

You think there's a problem, but the things that you've described do not raise very many doubts in my mind. Your 1992 source is either quite close to the File:Coat of arms of Libya (1977-2011).svg version, or you haven't described it clearly enough... AnonMoos (talk) 08:52, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, that one is quite close. Unfortunally the other is quite different. But all of them show a hawk who is looking to the other side - why this is not a problem? --Roxanna (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Because the ones with non-green shield and/or الاتحاد الأفريقي العربي inscription are not plausible candidates to be the coat of arms of Libya from 1977 to 2011, to start with. They may be something else, but they are almost certainly not the coat of arms of Libya from 1977 to 2011... AnonMoos (talk) 16:03, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

Well, I do not longer doubt the inscription. Maybe the inscription was changed at any moment between 1977 and 2011 and later changed again. This is no longer important for me. And I never said that Arab-African union is the right inscription, I just asked if maybe you read something wrong. But again, the inscription problem is no longer important for me. However, the green shield (and the green laurel!) is still questionable, and the question about the direction seems to be a real problem. By the way, you did not answer my question insto which direction the hawk is looking according to your books... --Roxanna (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

The all-green shield matches the all-green flag. A discrepancy between shield and flag would be suspicious, not a concordance. And as I said above, the words "left" and "right" are very awkward in this context (the words of heraldic blazoning "dexter" and "sinister" have a much more standardized and unambiguous meaning), but the eagle in the two books I mentioned is facing the same way as in the image File:Coat of arms of Libya (1977-2011).svg. AnonMoos (talk) 13:09, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Left, right, sinister or dexter - you exactly know what I mean. So if all your books show the hawk looking to the left side, then that's really a problem. All my four books show it looking to the right side. --Roxanna (talk) 10:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Over six years later…

I saw ”The world of flags : a pictorial history” by William Crampton. A monochrome green outlined version of the emblem is shown. The hawk faces left, the shield is just a green outline. The legs and tail are separated. There is indeed a wreath. The version without inscription might be a more recent version (maybe early 2000s); the previously mentioned book shows the inscription as “Libyan Arab Republic”. 71.239.86.150 14:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Move request

@Fry1989: Please move File:Coat of arms of Libya (1977-2011).svg to File:Coat of arms of Libya (1977–2011).svg, thx. ColorfulSmoke (talk) 20:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)