File talk:Ethnic Macedonian Flag.svg

 

Info

The Vergina Sun is recognized and protected as a national Greek symbol by the World Intellectual Property Organization. Wikipedia already has a page with the symbol that includes the copyright protection. Please stop removing the information that you don't like because you will do vandalism. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vergina_Sun_WIPO.svg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.132.44 (talk • contribs)

Some believe it's called the Kutlesh Sun. Anyway, the design is in public domain so that extra information is not required. Luxure Σ 06:02, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Well it is a Greek symbol that predates ancient Macedonia. If Macedonians want to represent their Greekness with a Greek symbol then you should respect their right to say I am Macedonian and this is my symbol of Greekness. After all they do have the statue of an ancient Greek leader on a horse that claimed descent from Herakles the son of Zeus. As a symbol of their Greek descend from ancient Macedonians in their capital. So extra information is definitely required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.132.44 (talk • contribs)

No sorry, the extra information belongs in an article, not a summary. It's a flag of the Macedonians, that all it needs, the information is correct, simple, unbiased and unchallenged. The information you add belongs in an article with references, not on an image. And i would also appreciate that you refrain from editing the page until this is resolved Luxure Σ 11:37, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

• IP, would adding the file to Category:Flags with Vergina Sun allay some of your concerns? ColonialGrid (talk) 12:12, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no problem with this, but also: Category:Flags with a single sun, Category:Red and yellow flags and even maybe SVG flags of the Republic of Macedonia Luxure Σ 12:19, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a flag of the far right nationalist Macedonians, since the official symbol to represent the ethnic population is this File:Flag_of_Macedonia.svg The same that was displayed in Wikipedia before it was replaced by the Vergina Sun flag. You can see the previous flag used in ethnic protests in the capital a few days ago http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/media/images/83051000/jpg/_83051379_43uurfp6.jpg . Not the Vergina Sun flag. The vergina Sun is an official and copyrighted Greek symbol used by the Greeks to represent Greekness and you are leaving that out. This is intentional misinformation. Removing viable information is neither unbiased nor unchallenged. To elevate some of my concerns I believe the status as an official Greek symbol used by Greeks should be displayed not hidden The symbol comes after all from ancient Greece and you can see it first used in ancient Greek shields from Attica and coins in Greek Islands. The excuse that the the information that this is a Greek symbol must be hidden at all cost because it will take too much space in the description, is not a serious one. Maybe even add it in the category Category:Symbols_of_Greece since it is an official Greek symbol. I will not considerer the matter closed until both sides are represented and the status as a Greek symbol properly attributed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.132.44 (talk • contribs)

Dear IP. If you please give us some hard evidence for your claim? Not some self-made website or blog. Official documents, newspaper, something down that alley. And yes Luxure, extra (short) information belongs into the summary as well. Not a complete article but some basic information. --Hedwig in Washington ^(mail?)

IP, when you start talking about things like 'intentional misrepresentation', or mentioning arguments that people have not used as 'excuses', you are not helping your argument. Instead, you are pretty much dooming yourself to be dismissed as someone with an agenda. Discuss the issue at hand, not your perception of other people's motivations... you are almost certainly wrong about them. A person is not a vandal simply because they disagree with you... a vandal is someone who is trying to intentionally break things for their own amusement.

Saying that the Vergina Sun is copyrighted is completely wrong, anyhow. It is not. It's 'official' use, and registration as, a national symbol has absolutely nothing to do with a copyright. You cannot copyright an ancient traditional symbol. Revent (talk) 23:30, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

To Hedwig, it's description is quite sufficient and short as "Ethnic flag of the Macedonians", who do not consider themselves Greek. Does not need for the extra info because of that very reason. That info belongs on the "flag of greek Macedonia", not an ethnic group who consider themselves non-Greeks. My short, sweet and sharp summary is backed up by references on en wiki page "Macedonians (ethnic group)". The IP (in my opinion) has a conflict of information as they geolocate from Greece, and obviously is biased towards the Greek side. Quite frankly, the description of a picture should be simple and self-explanatory, hence the simple "ethnic flag of the Macedonians". Cheers, Luxure Σ 08:08, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

I would also ask if consensus has not been met by 8 June, extend its protection period. One only needs to see talk page archive 7 of Macedon (ancient kingdom) on en.wiki to see what this can lead to. Luxure Σ 08:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The symbol is an ancient traditional symbol of the Greeks.

If we look at this source http://www.ijhssnet.com/journals/Vol_2_No_23_December_2012/8.pdf we will see the ethnic symbol of the Macedonians to be the Yellow Lion not the Vergina sun the vergina sun is used as symbol by the far right nationalist.

Example: The Macedonian special forces unit known as the Lions was disbanded because it was considered to be nationalistic. The flag is the Vergina Sun, used by ethnic Macedonians to express connection to Alexander the Great.

https://www2.bc.edu/john-sullivan-13/sl250/subpage_7.html

Nationalist using in Wikipedia a Greek symbol to claim descend from Alexander the great a Greek king instead of the ethnic Yellow Lion or the the eight point Sun is indeed a matter if it should be used in Wikipedia.

In fact back in 2013 the Liberal Party of Macedonia had officially asked for the ban of the symbol.

According to Mr Velickovski:

A ban on the use of the Vergina Sun is regulated by the Interim Agreement signed in 1995 between Greece and FYROM; however, it has not so far been implemented accordingly, as the Vergina Sun is used by state institutions, at sports events and in sports halls built during last few years. Moreover, a flag bearing this symbol is often used at the state festivities during government holidays, and at the meetings of some political parties.

It will be recalled that Article 7, paragraph 2, of the Interim Agreement provides that FYROM, with the entry into force of the Agreement, will cease to use in any way the symbol of the Vergina Sun in any shape or form.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+E-2013-013433+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

The thing is that this is a Greek symbol and should be appointed as such. The users of the vergina Sun are nationalist Macedonians slavs that want to claim descend from Alexander the great using this symbol often along with the map of the irredentist concept of united Macedonia you can see them here. https://news-images.vice.com/images/articles/meta/2015/05/18/political-crisis-in-macedonia-raises-fears-of-ethnic-violence-1431986325.jpg?crop=1xw:0.6011730205278593xh;0xw,0.24633431085043989xh&resize=1200:*&output-format=image/jpeg&output-quality=90

And here:

https://turkeymacedonia.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/macedonians.jpg

The majority of the population is using the eight point star as an ethnic symbol http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show/P1180992.JPG Not the Vergina Sun.

If Wikipedia allows the use of the Vergina Sun by nationalist that use it to claim descend from Alexander the great and the irredentist consept that comes with it. Then Wikipedia should also provide the information that this is a Greek symbol. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.86.132.44 (talk • contribs)

2.86.132.44 Please type four tildes (i.e. ~~~~) at the end of your talk page messages to sign them. Also, this is not Wikipedia (the encyclopedia) this is Commons (which is just an image library). 'Encyclopedic' information like you are discussing is generally outside of the scope of image descriptions, and should be discussed in relevant Wikipedia articles (where you will, unfortunately, find that the 'ethnicity of Alexander the Great' war has been going on for years, and been the subject of much drama). We really don't need such drama imported here... image descriptions should be simple, factual, and non-controversial. As far as Wikipedia 'allowing' such use, people go to great lengths to avoid making such 'judgements' there... Wikipedia is supposed to cover what has been said about subjects by reputable third-party sources. The relevant articles should be merely 'documenting' how the symbol has been used, not endorsing any particular position. People that try to use Wikipedia to support a particular position, or manipulate the content of articles to do so (a frequent problem in some subject areas, like this one) are completely out of line, and generally eventually made unwelcome by the community. Revent (talk) 00:49, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

IP is doing just that. Not discussing the image itself but rather the hodge-podge behind it. And using "FYROM". Obviously hasn't read (even though it doesn't apply here, I don't think, WP:MOSMAC). Typical... Luxure Σ 07:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

So I signed in.

This image was made and uploaded in commons in 2014 with the purpose to replace the image that was used as an ethnic symbol in Wikipedia the Lion.

http://web.archive.org/web/20141121074312/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Macedonia_-_ethnic.svg

So it's far from being neutral.

As you said image descriptions should be simple, factual, and non-controversial. The use of just "Flag of the Macedonians" as description is controversial because it is used with the purpose to promote that Slavs are descendants of Alexander the great through the use of Vergina Sun without saying that this is a Greek symbol. A controversial topic. So the description should have that, this is "a Flag of the Macedonians and Greek symbol." because this is what it is.

The image otherwise is controversial. Screen74 (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no doubt the image is controversial, yet it is referenced on enwiki as a symbol for the Macedonians. I have been lucky to attend a Macedonian wedding and I this flag was being waved around everywhere. Luxure Σ 02:21, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Nonetheless they are using an ethnic Greek symbol. You know it and I know it and it should labeled as such. Screen74 (talk) 20:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Define "ethnic Greek". I find it hard to believe hat an ancient symbol used by a people whos Greekness is disputable is a symbol of it. The Australian Aboriginal Flag, notice that in its description, it simply says "Australian Aboriginal flag". Nowhere on that page does it say that the black represents the people, the red the earth and the yellow the sun. But it does say it on its article page. The same goes for the Torres Strait Islander flag, yet these flags were not symbols before the 70's, they were adopted by its people. The same goes for this flag. On the Aussie Flags description page it says nowhere that the Union Jack represents the nations colonial heritage, but it does say that in its article. Again, the Turkish flag's description page also states that it is the flag of turkey, and not the moon representing Islam. I would also suggest to you to expand your editing/uploading focus on wikipedia/commons. Accounts which push an agenda or are here simply for a single purpose do not last very long. Luxure Σ 23:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)