File talk:Metric and imperial systems (2019).svg

Please look for common ground rather than edit-warring

@Veverve and DeFacto: I have added the word "customary" in two places in the description. I believe that this should satisfy both of you as it keeps the quoted text intact (as per User:Veverve while adding the accuracy that the US does not use imperial units of measure, but rather customary units of measure (as per User:DeFacto). Martinvl (talk) 22:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl: it is the graphic that is the main problem, it is that that you see when this image is used, not the accompanying metadata. The graphic needs to be corrected before the warning template is removed. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:36, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto: Please read COM:NPOV. In short, it says that this is Commons, not Wikipedia and it is up to individual Wikipeida editors to decide whether or not the image is suitable for their purposes. As far as I can see, this image in question meets Commons rules in full. Please remove the banner. Martinvl (talk) 14:31, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)@Martinvl: COM:NPOV is totally irrelevant here as I am not disputing the neutrality of a point of view or whether this is original research. What I am pointing out is that the map is currently factually inaccurate. Your policy-lawering is not very helpful in that respect. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:40, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve and DeFacto: @Martinvl: There will be a new version uploaded but it is really not necessary, commons is not wikipedia, and they don't have the same 'rules' or scope. This is also good to read project scope of commons. --Goran tek-en (talk) 16:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: a new version is only necessary if you consider factual accuracy to be important. And as you mentioned COM:SCOPE, you might wish to consider what educational value a factually incorrect map provides. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:47, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

DeFacto Of course fact is important but quite often what is fact for one person is not fact for another. The first version had two links as sources and to me they show just this. Unfortunately very little in life is black or white, most is shades of gray. So it seems as that could be an educational point. --Goran tek-en (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: May I respectfully point out a small error in your updated map - in view of its strong links with the United States rather than with Britain, Liberia uses US Customary units of measure rather than imperial units of measure. In practice, this difference only affects liquid measures such as gallons. (See here). Martinvl (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl: The legend says "Imperial or mainly imperial". Since Liberia as you say uses mainly imperial units, putting Liberia in this category is accurate. Veverve (talk) 09:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl and Veverve: I'm a graphic worker, I nearly always have zero knowledge of the subject I work on. It is up to the requester to provide information so I can do my work but I (we, graphic workers) don't do research, translations etc. That is why I always give credit and put out who the requester was and provided the information. So you have to discuss that with Veverve. If you want another New version (as in New image) of this image you can always contact me and I will help you. --Goran tek-en (talk) 11:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Myanmar uses o

You stated that Myanmar uses "mainly imperial units". This is not quite true. The markets in Myanmar use a unit of mass known as the "Viss". This unit is widely documented at if you visit this site you can see a pitcure a a weighting machine calibrateed in viss and in kilograms, but not in imperial units.

The underlying reason for this problem is that your original source was incorerct. The author of that source drew on the phrase "only three countries - Burma, Liberia, and the US - have not adopted the International System of Units (SI, or metric system) as their official system of weights and measures". (See here). The author of the original source interpretted this to mean that all three countries still used the imperial system (which is not true). Martinvl (talk) 18:43, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Martinvl Who addresses you this to? --Goran tek-en (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl: do you have any reliable secondary source supporting you claim? 19:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Veverve (talk)

4 other non-metric countries missing

There are 4 other countries (per Hector Vera's PhD thesis: see sources here) not using metric system: Samoa, Palau, Micronesia, Marshall Islands. These should ideally be added to the map. @Goran tek-en: could you re-add those from the original blank map? Cherkash (talk) 05:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

the PhD is from 2011, maybe it has changed since then. Veverve (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: It's not a process that can easily go unnoticed. Do you know of any sources that say such conversion has happened in those 4 countries since 2011? Cherkash (talk) 22:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cherkash: this link which also considers the US to be under the imperial system. Veverve (talk) 22:49, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: That doesn't look like a reliable source on the subject. Wrong claims and misrepresentations like this were specifically mentioned by Vera in his PhD: "only 3 countries" is a myth widely recounted in many sources incl. the CIA World Factbook. The real question is not the "3 countries" claim by some semi-random source, but whether you have any evidence of the conversion that happened since 2011 in those countries. E.g. there were specific documented efforts underway in Liberia and Myanmar – even targeting particular dates as conversion deadlines (e.g. 2019 for Myanmar). But I have seen no such reports about the other 4 countries, have you? In their absence, it's prudent to assume those 4 small countries remain non-metric. Cherkash (talk) 23:02, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I agree. @Goran tek-en: could you add those four other countries as using the imperial system? Veverve (talk) 23:17, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: New version uploaded. Those countries are really tiny on this map and sometimes there is an island with the same name and then next to it a 'Federation' or something so I'm not sure I got this correct so check it, thanks. --Goran tek-en (talk) 20:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: The locations seem correct. Cherkash (talk) 13:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

US customary vs. Imperial

@Veverve and Martinvl: There still seems to remain an open question about the following 5 countries: Liberia, Samoa, Palau, Micronesia, Marshall Islands – on whether their systems in use could be called "US customary" or "Imperial". Given there is a historical and factual evidence on their use of US-modified Imperial system (which is what essentially is called "US customary") and their historical and current connections to the US, wouldn't their systems be more properly called "US customary"? Cherkash (talk) 13:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cherkash: Please provide source saying those 4 countries use US customary system. Veverve (talk) 14:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: Vera mentions it implicitly on p.92 (when he talks about 4 countries being heavily influenced by US and under US administration for some period). (He also talks on p.93 about Samoa specifically, and even quotes a Samoan saying Samoa uses imperial units – but given a lack of context of that quote, and also being unclear if "imperial" in this quote just meant to be "non-metric", I wouldn't treat this Samoan's quote as reliable info on the subject of our discussion here.) So yes, I would consider Vera to be a weak evidence of the 4 countries using US customary units. Cherkash (talk) 15:57, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Samoan speed limit sign

@Veverve and Cherkash: : Ideally, on the evidence presented, we should treat Samoa as being a non-metric country, but whioch flavour of it being non-metric. The flavours that you used, we have are "Imperial" (as per the UK law of 1824 and subsequent legislation), "US Customary" (evolved from the pre-1824 English units) and the "Burmese/Imperial mixture". If we are to allocate Samoa to one of these groups, we need to do it on the basis of probablility. If we look at the Wikipedia article on [Western] Samoa (as opposed to American Samoa), we see that Samoa was controlled by New Zealand between 1914 and 1962. During that time, New Zealand used Imperial units, so unless Samoa had a history of some other system of unts, it is safe to assume that Samoa also used Imperial units. We should also note that the criteria used by Vera was the passsing of legislation under which the metric system of units became the offical system of units in the territory concerned. The fact that the Samoan parliament has not acually passed such legislation does not mean that metric units are not accorded some sort of official recognition in Samoa, as is evidenced by the speed limit sign shown alongside. Martinvl (talk) 16:33, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl and Cherkash: So, nobody has any proof that those 4 countries may be using the US customary system, however we have them considered as using the imperial system in a PhD; if the writer was not clear enough, there is nothing we can do, and there is no way we can go beyond what is written. I therefore maintain the map is accurate. Veverve (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: : If you read Vera's dissertation, you will see that his research was entitled "Metrication in the United States and Mexico" and was part of a bigger program at the university of how legislative changes in one country influenced legislative changes in a neighbouring country. As part of his research he catalogued legislation around the world to adopt the metric system in place of the existing system of units, regardless of what the existing system was. Acording to his research, his native Mexico adopted the metric system in 1857 - they used the traditional Spanish system of units. If you are going to use his research, then you can only use two classification - "metric" and "non-metric". The discussion so far has shown that the artcile in Statisca is sloppy in the way in which it uses its terminology, so should really be discarded.

If on the other hand you wish to use the Statisca data, then I suggest that you use that source ONLY. You do not need to justify the accuracy or otherwise of your data, you can refer the reader to the original article and let them decide on the accuracy of the data. Martinvl (talk) 22:06, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

@Martinvl: I am tired of this. Either provide a clear source for these countries or call it a day. Veverve (talk) 02:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: "I'm tired of this" is rarely a useful way to reach something in a discussion. You are of course entitled to produce illustrations with any degree of accuracy (or without such). For as long as you list your sources – and even if you don't, to be honest – your kind of fiction is likely to be allowed to persist on Commons. But not on Wikipedias. It's a peculiar property of Commons that there may be a lot of material here without much credence to it. What we are trying to do here, is to elevate your illustration to the level where it will also pass the muster of various Wikipedias (which usually have higher standards of verifiability than Commons). If our efforts are misplaced and you don't care, just let us know. Then your illustration will likely persist on Commons only not to be used on Wikipedias at all (it will be challenged there). But if you would like to get to the level of this higher standard, then try to listen to the suggestions maybe? Martinvl had a few good ones above. Hint: it may require re-thinking and changing the labels on the map. Cherkash (talk) 23:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cherkash: if you wanted the label for those four countries to be "Unknown", you should have said it directly. I agree with this idea. Veverve (talk) 00:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: I think we can say more than "Unknown". E.g. "Mainly non-metric" would be better. Cherkash (talk) 00:47, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cherkash: except we already have a maps with just that on. I thought the point of this map, and its differentiator, was to show where US Customary and imperial are specifically used. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto and Cherkash: "Unspecified non metric" seems like a good compromise. Veverve (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@DeFacto and Veverve: I don't think we have identified any reliable sources so far that would point to any country but the US to use US customary units. There are 4 other possible candidates: Liberia, Palau, Micronesia, Marshall Islands (I've struck Samoa from that list following our discussion above). And there is one plausible candidate for Imperial: Samoa. So with this amount of uncertainty (5 out of 7 countries with exact system being unclear), is there a good justification for a world map which only shows 2 non-metric countries (US and Myanmar) reliably (plus the UK to show its obvious mixed status)? It just seems we don’t have reliable sources so far to make the distinction desired for this kind of map. Cherkash (talk) 14:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: To stay on the subject of the labels: I'd be ok with "Unknown non-metric" by the way. We can keep it until better sources emerge. Cherkash (talk) 14:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: could you please change the map? Could you create a new "Unknown non-metric" legend and put Liberia, Samoa, Palau, Micronesia, and Marshall Islands in the colour of this new legend? Hopefully, after this everything should be correct. Veverve (talk) 16:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve and Cherkash: : Here is some food for thought:

• This site siuggests that in Liberia, petrol is sold by the US gallon "18 US Cents per gallon (or 4.75 US-Cents per liter)" implies that one gallon equals 3.79 liters.
• This Samoan Government site gives the price of petrol by the litre while this site hints at road speeds being mow all in km/h. Is Samoa metric or not?
• Gasoline and diesel usage and pricing shows petrol prices in Burma/Myanmar per litre while this site shows speed limits in km/h. How metric is Burma/Myanmar?

Martinvl (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve: New version uploaded. You have to check the whole map as I made changes in colors and so on, thanks. --Goran tek-en (talk) 17:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Veverve and Cherkash: If more changes are on its way it would be great if all of you could collect them and give them to me at one time in a point list or similar, thanks. --Goran tek-en (talk) 17:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: "Mostly imperial" label is now unused - can we remove it please (Myanmar is mostly "traditional Burmese"). And let's use its orange color for the "unknown non-metric" label to stand out better. After this, only 4 labels should remain in the legend. See the file's "description" section to check which country is under which label. Thanks! Cherkash (talk) 00:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Cherkash There is no "Mostly imperial" label so I can't remove it. I'm a graphic worker and I ask you to tell me here specifically what you want changed, list form is great for me, thanks for your understanding. --Goran tek-en (talk) 15:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: I meant "Mainly Imperial". Please re-read my previous ask and let me know if it’s still unclear. Cherkash (talk)<

Cherkash As I told you before I'm a graphic worker and I concentrate on doing that part to the best of my knowledge. Right now I'm working on this request, a time zone word map, 1937 linguistic map, update on illustration on Sutton helmet design 2, illustration and animation for superionic ice here at commons and then I have the rest of my life. There is no way I can concentrate me on anything but the graphic part in all those different fields. On the other hand this subject is very clear to you and you probably have a deep knowledge in it. So please understand me when I ask you to present the updates like this.

• Look at the version we have now and tell me what to change in detail, preferably in list form. Just what is needed, no extra information as it only will confuse me. I do hope you understand and respect this, thanks. --Goran tek-en (talk) 10:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

• Currently, I would summarize the above into one suggestion: let's change light green to red. But actually, looking at the code, there are few islands missing (you had to add manually Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau; and I'm sure other small "metric" countries are not even there) - so I'm going to redo the map based on File:BlankMap-World.svg which is much more customizable and is actively supported as a base map, unlike the map you used as a base for this. Cherkash (talk) 21:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Canada

@Lubiesque: you complained that the map was inexact, because Canada still use some imperial measurments; you pointed to this source to support your statement. Can anyone confirm that Canada uses a mixed system? Veverve (talk) 00:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

As a start, read the Wikipedia article Metrification in Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_Canada#:~:text=Notwithstanding%20the%20end%20of%20officially,be%20used%20alongside%20metric%20units.

Better still, read the 2017 Angus Reed Institute detailed, in-depth research: Canada is miles – or rather, kilometres – away from a uniform system of measurement http://angusreid.org/metric/

Also, Canada: still confused about measuring since 1975 https://www.rcinet.ca/en/2017/03/02/canada-still-confused-about-measuring-since-1975/

Also Canada's incomplete metrication https://wernerantweiler.ca/blog.php?item=2015-01-01

and you may also ask 37.5 million Canadians--Lubiesque (talk) 01:30, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lubiesque: Thanks.

@Goran tek-en: could you put Canada into the "Mixed metric and impeial" colour? Veverve (talk) 03:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Veverve Canada changed.  Done --Goran tek-en (talk) 12:22, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the map needs to be changed with regard to Canada.--Lubiesque (talk) 12:31, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I suppose in most English-speaking countries, usage of imperial units still lingers. E.g., in Australia, it's common for jeans to be sold with a waist size in inches, with a centimetre conversion, and likewise for TVs and computer monitors. People are still mystified if you tell them your height in centimetres, and ask for an imperial conversion. Shoe sizes use a range of scales. Cooking recipes can include weird measurements like tablespoons, and the tablespoon size varies by country. --ghouston (talk) 01:49, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: @Goran tek-en: I think Canada should be changed back to "metric". The reasons for the "mixed" designation that were brought up above, can equally apply to most metric countries: there is a measure of traditional non-metric systems used in many of them, but this doesn't make all such countries "mixed". Canada is pretty much through-and-through a metric country, as well as any other metric country. Cherkash (talk) 21:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cherkash: I oppose this change, Canada is not a metric country and the previous arguments still stand. Veverve (talk) 21:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

The arguments above being quite ad-hoc, it's a weak standard on which to base a quite exclusive definition of "mixed" countries (I say "quite exclusive" because on this map there are currently only two such countries highlighted). In reality, there are many more countries that adhere to the same definition (i.e., essentially that "a measure of traditional/non-metric units still being customarily used there"). Tablespoons? Shoe sizes? Screen sizes? Really?? These have nothing to do with metric/non-metric distinction. But the defining factor is what measurement standards the official bodies that govern such things adhere to, and what kinds of laws and regulations govern these matters. A few exceptions (even if codified) to allow for traditional use don't make it "mixed" as opposed to "metric": as it should rather be labeled as "metric with some measure of traditional units allowed" - which coincidentally what most countries in the world are. So for simplicity this should be labeled as "metric", but if you want to be pedantic, then let's use "metric with some traditional units allowed" as a main label for most of the world. Cherkash (talk) 22:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cherkash@Veverve I have no detail knowledge of this subject so I can't contribute but is there not some kind of definition of what a metric, not metric, mixed country, etc would be?. Does not a country state in some way what they themselves mean what they are. If not, then most (if not the whole) of the world Would be "mainly x". Like Sweden we are metric but clothing e.a. is in mixed depending on where it's produced. --please ping me-- Goran tek-en (talk) 10:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Veverve, that was pretty much one of my points. So most (except for 5 or 6) countries in the world are "mainly metric" which for purposes of this map can be just named "metric". Talking about clothes sizes and such is misleading - this has no direct relation to physical measurements as they usually represent a set of parameters used in making such clothing, so this is unrelated to "physical measurement systems". Cherkash (talk) 17:53, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The whole argument as to whether a country is metric or not is senseless unless one has a reliable source that uses a consistent definition for all countries. The file associated with this talk page has neither! Martinvl (talk) 19:25, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

A few things; Firstly Nearly all use of Imperial/US Customary units in Canada is of a colloquial nature, or considered helpful to US travellers as well as for the older generation who were raised on mainly the US Customary/Imperial system and using the Metric system only for the sciences before the 1980’s, or because the audience/readership of a produced work or the users of a product/service in Canada is very likely to be bought/read/viewed/shared by Americans too given the relatively close and open relations of the two countries. Secondly Canada officially uses the metric (SI) unit system at all levels of governance and official business, while virtually all civilian infrastructure and public signage is in Metric (SI), and all public and privately funded scientific analysis, research and reporting uses the Metric (SI) system, as well as all consumer goods, as mandated by law. In my opinion and based on the facts as well as living as a Canadian myself, can attest that Canada is at a minimum, ‘mainly metric’ and I think should be classified that way, since in no official capacity is it ever completely employed. CanAerospace99 (talk) 20:02, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

And by "it" I meant the U.S. Customary/Imperial System is never completely employed and only the metric system is used at any official capacity. CanAerospace99 (talk) 20:04, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Imperial units have a legal definition in Canada and are used over the metric system in many cases outside of Quebec i.e. retailers can and do sell (not just advertise) meat and fruit by the pound, hardware stores sell lumber by the foot, and ovens are programmed in degrees Fahrenheit. Go into Home Depot and ask for a meter of wood or Best Buy and ask for a 122 cm tv and you will get nothing but blank stares from them.

On a sidenote though, Canada seems to have moved towards using US Customary units over Imperial i.e. the 1 gallon = 3.78 liters, cooking measurements are in US cups/tablespoons. Maybe the map should be updated to say that.

23haveblue (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Myanmar/Burma

@Goran tek-en: Where do you get the idea that Myanmar/Burma is "Mostly imperial"? Many sources state that Myanmar is "not metric". They do NOT state that Myanmar is "mainly imperial".

When British rule ended in Burma they bequeathed the country a mix of imperial and traditional Burmese units. (See en:Myanmar units of measurement). During the last five years, Burma has adopted a process of metrication - there is plenty on the internet to show that speed limits are in km/h (eg *World Health Organisation website) and that petrol is sold by the litre (eg Myanmar Times. Food appears to be sold by either the traditional unit (pyi, kyattha or viss) or by the metric unit (NOT by the imperial unit). See pg 62 of Myanmar Living Conditions survey 2016/1017. These items are more than enough to show that "mainly imperial" is false.

The only imperial unit that I could find that might not yet have been converted is the acre, for example see this University of Michigan paper.

Please use some other description for Myanmar/Burma, especially if you want to add a date. Martinvl (talk) 17:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Martinvl: The source for Myanmar is StatistaCharts. It proved to be not really realiable; however, in the absence of any clear source about the situation in Myanmar, it is the best we have. All your sources are not general enough, and using them would be OR. Veverve (talk) 17:36, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: As you said, the StatistaCharts source is unreliable, so it might be appropriate to check the sources that they used. I have been through them and none of them say that the imperial system is the predominant system of units, only that Myanmar does not use metric units. You are therefore unjustified in assuming that Myanmar was wholly imperial when the various sources that StatistaCharts used were published. The sources that I gave you show that the viss, for example is (or was) widely used and also that kilometres and litres are used by motorists. At best you should state that Myanmar uses "Some metric, some imperial, some traditional". Martinvl (talk) 21:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Martinvl: You have to bring a RS talking about the measure system in Myanmar in general, and not simply clues. Veverve (talk) 23:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

A good start is en:Myanmar units of measurement. No imperial there, only "traditional Burmese". I've requested this change above already. Let's finally fix it please. Cherkash (talk) 22:50, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

@Cherkash: You have not provided any source for your claim, and neither did the Wikipedia page you claim as your source. Veverve (talk) 08:13, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: Try this then: de:Burmesisches Maßsystem. It has more detailed info and additional sources. Cherkash (talk) 03:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Cherkash: A sourced sentence of this article says: "According to Cardelli (2004), the units described here were used before 1920 and are obsolete today." Veverve (talk) 06:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Cherkash: Maybe we should change "Mainly imperial", in which there is only Myanmar, to "Unable to determine", since we are unable to determine what system Myanmar uses. Veverve (talk) 10:15, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

speed limit in Myanmar

Mainly Imperial" is certainly wrong! Look at this picture for example. The text quotes the price of fuel by the litre and if you look at the petrol pump, the top figure is 32.78. I have never seen a car that has a petrol capacity of 32.78 gallons, but every car that I have owned has had a capacity of more than 32.78 litres. Also, look at the image on the right. It shows a speed limit in km/h. These two are more than enough to tell me that "Mainly imperial" is patently wrong. Finally may I suggest that you look at this document. It gives a good idea of what sort of things are priced in metric units, what is priced in imperial units and what is priced in traditional units. Martinvl (talk) 22:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

@Cherkash: so what do you say, do you agree with my proposal of changing the legend?

As for your sources, I have once again to tell you that those are clues, and not solid, clear evidence. The country may be using liters and kilometers due to most of its cars being imported, and may communicate internationally using the metric system. Veverve (talk) 06:48, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: Probably the most concise description that you can give is "Multiple". Martinvl (talk) 15:26, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Martinvl: "Multiple" does not mean anything. Veverve (talk) 15:37, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: In which case I again suggest "Some metric, some imperial, some traditional". Martinvl (talk) 17:09, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

@Martinvl: we have no RS saying this. Veverve (talk) 17:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
@Goran tek-en: can you change the legend from "Mainly imperial" to "Main system of measurement unknown"? If you believe the colour for "Main system of measurement unknown" has to change to better reflect the new legend, change it. Veverve (talk) 18:31, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve: Can do so but you also have Unknown non-metric, Is that not almost the same? Would it not be better to join them? Please Ping me again, thanks.--Goran tek-en (talk) 11:48, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

@Goran tek-en: It is not the same, because we do not even know if Myanmar uses a non metric system, so those legends should not be merged. Veverve (talk) 11:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

@Veverve:  Done --Goran tek-en (talk) 13:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Updating the base map

@Veverve: You've recently reverted my update to the base map with the following comment: "Map has lost its transparency + Goran tek-en's images often use colours which people with colour deficiencies can distinguish + how was the previous map unmaintained?" I'll address those concerns.

• Map transparency: no, it hasn't lost it, the transparency is there. It's just that the ocean is made non-transparent, but other than that, everything outside of the globe outline is still transparent. What's the point anyway of having transparent ocean and miniscule island countries showing on a transparent background that image creators have no control over? It could be placed by individual Wiki editors on any background - with various effects with respect to losing graphical info.
• The only color I changed was light green to red. The way it was, it was already difficult to distinguish between blue and green, and several green-colored islands were almost entirely lost in the Pacific Ocean. If you disagree with a particular shade of red I chose, feel free to edit - it's literally a 6-character sequence you need to edit in a single place in the SVG file.
• The base map maintenance: the base map on which the original by Goran tek-en was based is not maintained with respect to any of the geographical changes that are constantly happening in the world. Countries changes names, outlines, borders, status of geographical entities, etc. There were also quite a few island nations missing in the Pacific (and probably elsewhere - to the point Goran tek-en had to use some crude hacking to place 3 green-colored circles approximately by hand somewhere in the Pacific). This is a bad way to create/maintain world maps. What I did is simple: it's using a simple CSS style sheet on top of a well-maintained base map which allows to update a derived map at any time with the least amount of effort.

It's also easy to maintain with a new version. Countries coloring can be done by hand editing a small snippet of code within SVG with a text editor. If you've never seen it done like this before, I encourage you to look at the file I uploaded and see how easy it is. The documentation/instructions page for the base map I used also has a lot of detailed instructions. Cherkash (talk) 23:44, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cherkash@Veverve Many of the issues discussed here are to me at the level of personal liking. You can always create a map in many different ways and how they look depending on your knowledge and liking.

• A whole transparent background gives the user (wiki editor or other) more opportunity to do what the needs are right then (not all media is used for wikis alone). Depending on how you view a svg transparent file sometimes there is a "check board" pattern to show this which can be disturbing (to me) so I sometimes put a semitransparent (often about 70%) white background for that reason but this affects the usage when placed on a colored background. So to me there is no right or wrong answer to this.
• I have checked both versions for color deficiencies and both versions are about the same.
• If this is a more correct base map that's great but then that information should be added to the sources, which base map is used and from which version of the map etc.

Also, the base map is maintained up to the time it was added into this map but then it's not any more. It's always like that if you have a free standing map, it ages and becomes incorrect so it needs care.

• To use CSS or not is also (to me) a personal preference. If you are used to work with that then you like it, if not you don't like it. This is not a map that will be updated very often so for that reason I can't really see the need to use CSS as there is a threshold of knowledge and understanding both in CSS but also in how the base map works with all its names, abbreviations and structure. So for a small change every other year I don't hink it benefits. I believe more graphic workers are used to work in svg viewing than in CSS right now but that might change in the future. --please ping me-- Goran tek-en (talk) 11:26, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Isle of Man, Channel Islands

I do not know for sure, but I think the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands should be shown like the UK, as mixed. For example, the Isle of Man still uses mph for speed limits: https://www.iompolice.im/motoring/speed-restrictions/ but gives some dieting information in grams and pints: https://www.gov.im/about-the-government/departments/cabinet-office/public-health/health-improvement/diet/

Jersey is similar: https://www.gov.je/travel/roads/pages/frameworkspeedlimit.aspx https://www.gov.je/Health/HealthyBody/pages/healthyeating.aspx ("30g of cheese or 1/3 pint of milk") Ƕ (talk) 14:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

I made the changes as they have received no objection. I now request that anyone who believes that the various British overseas territories and Caribbean islands that post speed limits in miles per hour should be shown as metric explain their rationale, and why they have not proposed they be shown as such on File:Metrication.svg, which shows them as metrication being "partially complete", directly contradicting what is shown on this map. Offa29 (talk) 12:05, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Each territory needs to be verified individually. For example, motorists in Gibraltar drive on the right and have speed limits posted in km/h (see here) whereas in the Falklands speeds are posted in mph (see here)and they drive on the left, particularly as a snub to the Argentinian rule in 1982. Martinvl (talk) 15:01, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

You are correct about Gibraltar, hence why I did not change it to purple in any of my updated versions. Citations for Anguilla (page 50), British Virgin Islands (page 28), (page 44), Cayman Islands, Monsterrat (page 51), St Helena (switch to Driving Laws On St Helena tab), (page 32), Turks and Caicos Islands (pages 72-75 by navigation bar, or 70-73 as labelled on the page), Antigua and Barbuda (page 62), Bahamas (page 48),Belize, Dominica (page 73), Grenada, St Kitts & Nevis (page 57), St Lucia (page 39), St Vincent & the Grenadines Offa29 (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: I think basing metrication status on posted speed limits is like putting the cart before the horse. Yes, it's highly visible - but it's just a minor use case in the grand scheme of things: a country's metrication is about so much more than just the posted speed limits. Such countries should probably be labeled as "metric with some measure of traditional units allowed" - which coincidentally what most countries in the world are. Hence, for simplicity, all of them are just labeled "metric" as there's an official or de facto metrication in force in pretty much all the world countries except half a dozen of them. Cherkash (talk) 16:12, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Then why is the UK not shown as "mostly metric"? In what areas have the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man metricated that the UK has not that justifies them being shown in different colours? Can you please explain how many areas of non-metrication are required in a country for it to be shown as not "mostly metric"? It is certainly not the case that the countries/territories in question are metric in every way except posted speed limits, as can be verified in the links posted at the top of this discussion. See this on Guernsey legally requiring jam to be sold in pounds and ounces, and beer in pints. Many of the links I gave to other countries/territories which I did not yet change in the most recent version of the map list other quantities than speed limits in imperial units.

There is no point in this map even existing unless it has a clear, explicit, consistent definition of what "mainly metric", "mixed" etc actually mean. To my mind, a country can only be listed as "mainly metric" if every legally prescribed area of society uses metric units, so having speed limits in miles per hour is an instant disqualification from being listed as "mainly metric". This does not mean that simply having speed limits in km/h is sufficient to be listed as "mainly metric", so it is not "basing metrication status on posted speed limits". It is basing metrication status on all official prescribed use in society. Please give a clear definition on what you consider necessary for a country to be listed as "mixed" versus "mainly metric", and how listed the UK as "mixed" but the Crown Dependencies as "mainly metric" fits in with that definition. Offa29 (talk) 17:24, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Offa29. The Statista chart is an example of a very poorly researched project - it combined the CIA data with the situation in the UK from the point of view of the consumer with a total disregard of the view of the professional. Martinvl (talk) 17:41, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

I agree with @Offa29 that the Channel Islands and the Isle Of Man should be the same colour as the UK. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: I checked through some of the documents that you cited. It should be noted that in 2018, Guernsey required that jam which was packaged in Guernsey should be labelled in pounds and ounces, but products that were imported from EU countries were permitted provided that they complied with EU regulations. The document itself was a conusltation document regarding future changes to the law. Martinvl (talk) 21:19, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl: Fair point. My point still stands however; that Guernsey uses a mix of metric and imperial and its use of imperial is not just limited to speed limits and distance signs. Despite the 2018 consultation, I searched and could not find any sign that there has actually been any change to the weights and measures law since 2018. I take it that you are not disagreeing that "mixed metric and imperial" is the appropriate label for Guernsey? Offa29 (talk) 22:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Various British overseas territories and Caribbean nations

It's probably better to make a new section for this rather than mixing it up with the Crown dependencies. Citations for the use of miles per hour for speed limits in: Anguilla (page 50), British Virgin Islands (page 28), (page 44), Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Monsterrat (page 51), St Helena (switch to Driving Laws On St Helena tab), (page 32), Turks and Caicos Islands (pages 72-75 by navigation bar, or 70-73 as labelled on the page), Antigua and Barbuda (page 62), Bahamas (page 48),Belize, Dominica (page 73), Grenada, St Kitts & Nevis (page 57), St Lucia (page 39), St Vincent & the Grenadines. Many of this sources also use other imperial units, for example referring to shorter distances in feet. If anyone objects to these nations being labelled as "mixed imperial and metric" rather than "mostly metric", now is the time to say so. Offa29 (talk) 16:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

• I looked at the Rhino Car Hire website and saw that both St Lucia and St Vincent and the Grenadines use km/h. I know that there has been a drive to get metrication sorted out in many Carribean countries and I suspect tht you were looking at old regulations (the regulations for St Lucia were dated 2018). Although I have no evidence of why there is this push, I believe that the EU has been helping many of these countries to set up their own weights and measures offices so that they can police their own metrology rather than relying on donor nations to do so for them. Part of this package has involved getting their weights and measures onto a sound footing which in turn means completing their metrication programs. I would therefore counsel against any of these changes. Martinvl (talk) 20:46, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

  @Martinvl Rhino Car Hire lists Antigua, Anguilla and the Cayman Islands in mph, the latter two of course being British overseas territories rather than independent countries.

It lists the Bahamas as having an urban speed limit of "32 kph [sic]". That is obviously equivalent to 20 mph, but I'm not sure whether that means that is the official limit is still 20 mph and it's just been converted on the website, or whether they have actually converted their speed limits to km/h but not bothered to round them of to more convenient multiples of 10. Some of the other countries in question are listed in round numbers of km/h, while others don't have their own page.

To muddy the waters further, Barbados is listed in mph. It is not listed as using mph on Wikipedia and was not on my list of countries to change. The rural speed limit is listed as 37 mph, equivalent to a rounded 60 km/h. However, the urban speed limit is listed as 20 mph, equivalent to the unrounded 32 km/h, rather than the 19 mph which would equate with 30 km/h. I think this casts a certain amount of doubt on the reliability of Rhino Car Hire as a source. At the very least, it is surely not as reliable as actual legal government documents from the country in question.

Also, here is a car rentals site from St Lucia still saying they use mph, and here is another one also saying that.

I'm not dismissing your concerns, though. When you say you're against any of these changes, do you just mean the independent Caribbean nations, or the British overseas territories as well? Clearly a territory like the Falklands [which I initially forgot to put on my list but have now added] is a very different kettle of fish, and I am very sceptical that metrication has happened there in the last few years. If we can't reach a clear answer by finding any more reliable source that would either confirm or disprove that metrication has taken place in any given country in the last few years, would a better solution not be to list them as "unknown" like Myanmar is at present, rather than "mostly metric"?

At present the map appears to be made with the assumption that every country is "mostly metric" unless specifically proven otherwise. That's reasonable outside of current and former British/American territories, but a very flawed assumption in them. Especially when official government documents show them still using mph as recently as 2018, I think strong, clear, reliable sources confirming that they have switched since then are needed for them to be listed as "mostly metric".

I also note that File:World_Map_of_Speed_Limit_Units_on_Traffic_Signs.svg shows all these countries as using mph, and File:Metrication.svg shows them as not being completely metricated. Both these maps would need to be changed if we have strong enough evidence that they now use km/h / have completed metrication.Offa29 (talk) 22:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: You are still falling into the trap of not having a formal metric against which to measure the degree of metrication. I am still of the view that this map is of very littel value. Martinvl (talk) 12:59, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl This seems like a topic worthy of a whole new section rather than just a response to my proposed changes. Notwithstanding the ambiguity over some countries like St Lucia, I am yet to hear a justification for why territories that are confirmed to use miles like the Falklands can be listed as "mainly metric" when the UK is not. Offa29 (talk) 20:13, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: : The answer to this apparnet ambiguity is quite simple - Garbage in, garbage out. The basic data on which this map was designed was complied from a number of sources. Let me go through them:

• Statistica Charts - Derived from four sources, the most reliable of which is the US Metric Association, suplemented by the journalist's own experience.
• Hector Vera - a good piece of work, part of a PhD thesis where he systematically worked through the legislation of all the UN member states. He gave answers "yes" or "no" to the question "Does this country use the metric system as its default system of units?". Note - the Falklands is not an independent state, so it fell outside the scope of Vera's research.
• CIA World Factbook - Complied to assist US diplomats around the world. Presents "Yes" or "No" to the question "Is this coutnry metric?". It missed a few micro-states that Vera included.
• The next two lines of sources related soley to the current status of mettrication in the United States and Canada respectively.
• Veverve - Who is (s)he? By what authority do they speak?

As you can see, the data for this map is a "shotgun marriage" between one source (Vera) that lists the legislation that exists in various countries and other editors who quote what is actually happening on the ground. You need to choose one or the other to produce a meaningful map. None of the source give any indication of how much weighting to put on various aspects of metrology in any one country. Martinvl (talk) 21:12, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl, I respectfully disagree with your appraisal of those sources. The US Metrication Association is a single-issue (favouring metrication) pressure group which is always going to have a conflict of interest over this issue. The Vera thesis is unreliable as it is based on assumptions rather than facts. For instance, it asserts that the UK officially adopted the decimal metric system as the compulsory and exclusive system of measurement in 1965 - the year the government formed a policy to support it, and 10 years before the first target completion date. LOL! The CIA factbook is unreliable with respect to weights and measures as it does not even get the fundamental facts about the US Customary System correct - it asserts it is the American adaptation of the British Imperial System! Even a cursory investigation reveals that the US became independent decades before the imperial system was devised. It might be true that metrication pressure groups consider these sources useful, but probably because they are useful in feeding their misinformation/propaganda agendas. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@DeFacto: : If you took the trouble to read Vera's thesis, you will see that he was comparing how legislation in one country influenced legislation in a neighbouring country with specific reference to metication. The univeristy department where he studied was probably looking at all sorts of legislation (and possibly other types of influence) and different students researched different case studies. That is how universities work. Vera then looked at the legislation around the world related to metrication. He did not look at whether or not the legislation was fully implemented. He did not make any value judgements about the quality of the legislation nor how well it was enforced - doing that would have been an excessive task for a single PhD thesis. The value of his thesis lies in the fact that he examined all countries against a consistent standard and as such, it is probably the best study that we have. Martinvl (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I'll ignore his disgraceful, unsupported, and self-opinionated diatribe about the character and motivation the British peoples, but not only does he confuse 'thinking about metrication' with '100% adoption', he muddles up 'England', 'Great Britain', and the 'United Kingdom', frequently using the wrong one in the context. He also misrepresents the reason that the UK drives on the left as "going against a French convention initiated in revolutionary France". I wonder if he thinks the same about Japan? So, as he gets the detail so badly wrong for the UK, how can we trust that he's any more accurate for any of the other countries? -- DeFacto (talk). 12:23, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@DeFacto: If you hold those views, then between us we have managed ot discredit all the references on which this map was based - ie it should not be used. Martinvl (talk) 16:49, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl If that is your view, then I would suggest nominating it for deletion if there is a suitable criterion laid out in the deletion policy. Failing that, remove it from every use on Wikipedia. I must say that I do not see what the purpose of this map is when we also have File:Metrication.svg, which it contradicts in several places. Offa29 (talk) 21:25, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29, yes, a good idea, we can then concentrate on that one. -- DeFacto (talk). 05:58, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

The File:Metrication.svg catalogues the status of metication as per the Wikipeida article en:Metrication. Wikipedia itself is not regarded as a reliable source and the world-wide table in that article contains only one citation which appears to date from the late 1960's. The table itself has many unreferenced comments no clearly-stated criteria and as such cannot be regarded as being reliable. Martinvl (talk) 13:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl With respect, you have given plenty of criticism of the current state of affairs with metrication maps, much of it valid, but no suggestion for how to fix them. If you have any such suggestions for what to do, I (and probably others) would be interest to here them. Offa29 (talk) 13:49, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: : If you look at this file, you will see that the associated PERL code catalogues the year in which the metrication process started. The information came from two sources, one dated 1975 and the other 2012, and did not involve the Commons editors (one of whom was me) in making any subjective judgements. I have yet to find a reliable document that suggests either a qualitative or quantitative definition for a degree of metrication, let aloneone that catalogues such a metric on a world-wide basis. Does this answer you question? Martinvl (talk) 17:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

@Martinvl So what are you saying should happen to this image? Should it be deleted? Offa29 (talk) 09:19, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

@Offa29: Since there is no legal reason to delete this file and since it is used in a number of Wikimedia projects, it would fail the "not educationally useful" criteria. Unless we can read the captions in the articles where it is used (not all the captions are in English), an alternative cannot be substituted. Therefore do nothing - the description shows that it is not particularly reliable and let Wikipedia editors make up their own minds. Martinvl (talk) 20:19, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Can any country's units really be "unknown"? + Liberia prob "mixed metric and imperial"?

I don't see how it's possible for a country's UOM to be truly "unknown" in the XXI century (except maybe for North Sentinel Island).

A sensible category would be "No official system" (not a category st present)

It seems to me that that Liberia and Burma (and probably some other former UK colonies) should be included together as:

• "No official system" or;
• de facto "Mixed metric and imperial" and categorised with Canada (purple on map.

Though quite likely Burma is instead "de facto Metric", given its geography.

There is definite evidence for Liberia being de facto "mixed" like Canada, e.g. someone here mentions fuel being sold in gallons and the Traffic and Road Safety Network Of Liberia, on it's Facebook page, shows road signs with km/h.

I suspect some other ex-UK colonies are also de facto mixed (e.g. in Caribbean, due to geographical proximity to US).

Grant65 (talk) 01:56, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

What this really means is that Wikimedia editors do not know what units of measure are used in Liberia - the CIA information is many years old and a number of pronouncents have come from Liberian politicians regarding a change-over to metric units in order to harmonise with neighbouring states,but since Liberia is not a tourist hot-spot ther is very little information regarding progress (if any) in metrication. Moreover, it is very difficult to define what is meant by a "metric country" - the best definitions being the existance of a law which states that apart from specified exceptions, the metric system is the default system in that country. Martinvl (talk) 11:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)