File talk:Phase diagram of water.svg

Ice XII and XIII

This is a nice diagram, but where is ice XIII ? From what I read it should be left of ice V. (it is the proton - ordered form of ice XIII) the phase transition occurs between 110 and 120 K (Salzmann, Science 2006, 311, 1758 ). Ice XII is also absent. Danski14 (talk) 21:15, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Hi @Dirac66 and Simon Chabrillat, As I'd been fixing the diagram and we had been discussing the S/L/V triple point, would you have an opinion on

1. The 4-year-old question above, and
2. My note that the phases of Ice X and XI differ from the diagram in [1]?

Cheers, cmglee (talk) 23:32, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on high-P and low-T phases of ice, but Wikipedia policy says to stick to the published sources and not do original research. On looking at the sources in the Summary under your diagram, I see that none of them include ice XII and XIII either. Ice XII is noted as metastable at Ice#Phases which explains its absence - only the stable phase in each region is given. Note that Ice IV is another metastable phase which is absent from the diagram. As for ice XIII, check the sources and see if there is any hint why it is absent from the diagrams; if there is no hint, then we can only say that it is absent from the diagrams in the sources and leave it at that.

Also the label ice XI seems to be assigned to two totally different phases - one at very high P and one at low T. This is obviously a nomenclature problem - at some time when ten phases were known, two scientists must have discovered two new phases at about the same time and both were given the name ice XI independently. One would expect IUPAC or someone to decide that one is XI and the other has some other number, but apparently the issue has instead been resolved by calling one XI(orthorhombic) and one XI(hexagonal). Not very satisfactory but it is not up to Wikipedia to decide. All we can do is say that these are the names used in the literature. But perhaps we should check once more, since at Ice#Phases the list under your diagram only includes XI(orthorhombic). Dirac66 (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for responding so quickly, Dirac66. Exactly my understanding, too. From your discussion at en:Talk:Triple point, I thought you and Simon might be knowledgeable enough in this field to know which papers etc are authoritative in order to get the ice phases right. I'm a complete novice in this field, and drew the diagram based on what I thought was a reasonable reference on the Internet. As we have discovered from the triple point issue, this could be outdated or just plain wrong, thus my wanting to get your opinions. Guess I'll leave the diagram as is for now. Cheers, cmglee (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Partial vapor pressure of triple point of water: 611.73 Pa or 611.657 Pa?

The value 611.73 Pa is provided in this plot and in all related articles in Wikipedia. Yet the description cites this source which mentions 611.657 Pa. I think that this would be more correct: Murphy and Koop (QJRMS, 2005) give 611.657 +/- 0.01 Pa and this is also the value used by the International Association for the Properties of Water and Steam (Wagner et al., J.Phys.Chem.Ref.Data,1994). I recommend to correct this diagram accordingly. Simon Chabrillat (talk) 11:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing to attention, Simon. It seems the 611.73 value can be traced to Fundamentals of thermal-fluid sciences by Cengel et al. These papers have this value:

1. http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd242.pdf
2. http://www.nist.gov/data/PDFfiles/jpcrd290.pdf
3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4447774/

These papers use the 611.196 value:

1. http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/80A/jresv80An3p505_A1b.pdf
2. http://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/dashboard/searchResults/titleDetail/PB258979.xhtml
3. http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/80A/jresv80An5-6p775_A1b.pdf

(the last paper noting that the 1971 value is 611.196 Pa)

As the second set are specifically about the water triple point, I'm tempted to agree with you, but I would like to read other editors' opinions before updating it. Would you mind asking on Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science, please?

Cheers, cmglee (talk) 12:35, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you want here. First, your Reference desk link gives an error message (Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.), and second, I don't know exactly what question you want me to ask. Perhaps it would be better if you asked the question yourself. Dirac66 (talk) 03:05, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, Dirac66. My note was about the previous section. The one here was in reply to Simon's query, which we have already resolved. Cheers, cmglee (talk) 23:50, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

ice IV and XI

I am wondering why I can't see any ice IV, and ice XI appears twice, is it a mistake? Or is there a reason behind this? How is the label order defined? Falkartis (talk) 14:10, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Hi Falkartis, my diagram was based on one at http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_phase_diagram.html . Re Ice IV, that page states, "The metastable phases (Ice Ic, ice IV, Ice IX and Ice XIII) do not belong in a phase diagram." According to http://ergodic.ugr.es/termo/lecciones/water1.html , there are two types of ice XI: Orthorhombic and Hexagonal. Cheers, cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ 13:18, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

@Cmglee, @Falkartis: The http://ergodic.ugr.es/termo/lecciones/water1.html is just an old copy of https://water.lsbu.ac.uk/water/water_phase_diagram.html (see the first line at the top of the first mentioned page). In the phase diagram of water on the second mentioned page (updated original) there is no ice XI above ice X. A kind of "high pressure ice XI" is mentioned in the table "Structural data on the ice polymorphs" at the page https://water.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_phases.html but with note: "Ice XI was first described as a fully-ionic antifluorite structure formed at around 100 GPa [2539]. Ice XI is also known as ice XIII. These structures have not been experimentally verified and, therefore, are best not referred to with the numerical designations first used." There are more examples of proposed (by different groups) ices with the same number (apart of the two XIs at least two XIXs were proposed too, one of them later renamed to XX). Reing (talk) 22:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking it up. Happy to change it if we can get consensus. Cheers, cmɢʟee ⋅τaʟκ 01:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

This file has non-node content within a switch element.

SVG translate yields the error message "This file has non-node content within a switch element". It would be nice if someone could fix the issue on the file, because it's used across a lot of Wikipedias and it would be good to ease translations. Pere prlpz (talk) 10:46, 16 September 2023 (UTC)