File talk:Coat of Arms of Henry VII of England (1485-1509).svg

Updating the image

Correct depiction of Henry VII COA

I have no idea how to update the file as there are so many restrictions when trying to change a different file type> SVG / PNG, however, it's be great if someone could do it on my behalf so that the image is depicted accurately as designed by the Tudors. Hogyncymru (留言) 00:56, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@Hogyncymru So that I don't have to play "spot the difference", what exactly has been changed between the two files? Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 22:00, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, the pizzle, not much attention was given to the small details, notice this image for reference. the pizzle was/is incredibly important within heraldry as it depicts legitimate male heir, so to have it missing is to render the creature (in this case, Wales) an eunuch, disabled which is symbolic over the representation of the royal line and the nation.. you only notice it if you look into it thoroughly.. but this is the problem with re-creating a modern depiction of an ancient image.. is that unless you have a person who has experience in heraldry monitoring the arms, significant details may (or will) be lost.

ArbfaisTuduriaid

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-uk-england-cambridge-kings-college-chapel-welsh-dragon-cadwallader-83196998.html

Hogyncymru (留言) 22:50, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

@Hogyncymru It seems like there are many versions of this coat of arms from that era, and the inclusion of the "pizzle" on the dragon, as you put it, varies. This one from 1504 does not include it, nor does this one (which is just dated c. 1485- c. 1509). If you want to talk about carvings in the sides of old churches, here's an example without it. Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 13:39, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

You'd be correct, you'll find plenty with and without, but as you'd know within Tudor period, there were plenty of people who were for and against the dynasty, those who questioned Henry's (welsh) legitimacy and others supporting it.. as Henry Tudor was the first Welsh king to rule over the English, he claimed one part of his kingdom via the ancient Brythonic leaders, thus; why he carried the red dragon of Cadwaladr.. however because the English crown worked differently to the older Welsh kingdoms, English rulers never recognised the original Brythonic leaders and the origin of their own monarchy began with King Edward I.

So basically the reason some depictions of the dragon was missing the pizzle was likely to be for this reason, they simply didn't recognise Henry's Welsh line.. of course Henry would (or could) never inspect each and every arms made throughout his kingdom.. however, it is an interesting point to make is that art (carvings etc) of the COA within abbeys/churches within the Welsh borders were more likely to include the pizzle on the dragon due to his connection with the people of Wales.

Basically what my point is, is that the pizzle was supposed to be on the COA, but akin to noses being chipped off roman sculptures, same was applied with the pizzle. Hogyncymru (留言) 19:11, 14 June 2022 (UTC)