File talk:Jutland Peninsula map.PNG

North Schleswig

Moved from file page -- PhJ (talk) 09:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

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02:04, 29. May 2009 91.89.6.165 (Talk) (2.090 Bytes) (→Summary)
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22:18, 13. Jan. 2009 90.185.226.198 (Talk) (1.317 Bytes) (→Summary)

Map shall be changed - name: north Schleswig is wrong! German wish thinking! It is an has alwayes been part of Denmark - but not from 1864 to 1920.

--> it is not that easy ! It was always part of the duchy of Schleswig which was in fact ruled by the Danish kings but was not part of the Danish kingdom. Since the duchies of Schleswig and Holstein were tied together and Holstein part of the Holy Roman Empire, the danish king was (as a duke) also one of the monarchs of the Holy Roman Empire... What is "Danish" in this context and what "German" ? There existed something called "Schleswig" for some hundred years ! This at a time when nations had not been invented... This concept is from later times and we should not forget that when looking at history... So "Schleswig" and nowadays Denmark are not really in contradiction !

I, PhJ, moved this paragraph from the file page to this file talk page. It is NOT my text and by no means it reflects my opinion. -- PhJ (留言) 14:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

It is not that simple either. Schleswig was never part of the Holy Roman Empire, but was always a fief of the Danish crown, in contrast with Holstein which was always a fief of the Holy Roman Empire (except 1806-1815). This situation was unacceptable to German nationalists from the 1830s, which in turn led to the two Schleswig Wars. (1848-1850 and 1863-1864). What muddles the situation completely is 1) that most of the Oldenburg kings of Denmark from Frederick III till Christian VII most often didn't speak Danish and considered themselves German, and considered Germanisation of Denmark a good thing; 2) that both Schleswig and Holstein were administered using the German language (although with different legal systems since Schleswig followed Danish medieval law). The provinces were administered from Copenhagen from the same building in which a different administration governed Denmark and Norway, and 3) that the population of vast chunks of Southern Schleswig in the 1820s-1840s changed their allegiance from Danish to German and their language from Danish to German, consequently shifting the province from a situation where at least 70 % of the region was almost exclusively Danish-speaking to a situation much closer to the current one (although the current linguistic border wasn't establised before c. 1940-1950). The "Constitutio Valdemariana" of 1326 features very prominently in German historiography, but its legality and validity has always been disputed since it was issued by the same Holstein duke who was its main beneficiary and who in turn issued it in the name of a Danish "monarch" which was both underage and considered illegitimate. The "Constitutio" was forgotten for centuries and in 1721 the diets of Schleswig declared that the two halves of Schleswig (the royal Danish + the ducal Gottorp parts) had been remerged into one organic unit and simultaneously confirmed that the entire duchy was a fief of the crown of Denmark, with the Danish King Frederick IV as its ruler. He in turn decided to maintain the region's separate legal status rather than abolishing it/reintegrating it completely into Denmark. The region was often perceived as a faux German province since its rulers were almost exclusively German speaking, not unlike the situation with the Baltic Germans in Estonia and Latvia, and a province is - of course - often identified with its ruling class of people. The history of the province is anything but simple. 2.110.54.193 22:18, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

But what is the probleme with the names on the map? -- PhJ (留言) 14:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)