File talk:Map of the Azerbaijani language.svg

False map

The map is misleading ([1]). Smpad (留言) 11:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't label it as misleading. The information it presents is generally accurate if you verify each point individually. However, I concur that the sources it currently relies on are not of high quality. Mehrdad Izady is not a credible scholar and has a reputation for overstating the presence of Kurds in all his maps. If you can find a better, unbiased source, I would be pleased to create a map based on it. — Golden ^talk 13:00, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I would label it as misleading. Azeri Turkish shading in Talysh region is misleading, no lighter shading in the areas where Tat, Kurdish (Nakhidchevan) and other languages are spoken etc. And yes, we need just another source. I can propose the Ethnologue map — [2]. Smpad (留言) 14:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe you're confusing language and ethnicity. The majority of Talysh in Azerbaijan, as well as other minorities, are bilingual. This means that Azerbaijani is spoken in these areas, which is why they are shaded on the map. It's important to note that the speaker doesn't have to be of Azerbaijani origin for the language to be represented on the map. And the Ethnologue map is straight up wrong. It shows the entire districts of Ordubad, Julfa, Zangilan, Qubadli, and Lachin as Kurdish-speaking, which is simply not the case. A more detailed map would be beneficial, rather than a generalised one. — Golden ^talk 14:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

You know, you can go even further and say that "right map" would look like all Republic of Azerbaijan just painted in dark blue color (without lighter shade) just because this is the only official language in the country and every one speak it (bypassing Artsakh): Lezgins, Tats, Talyshis, Avars and others :) No, I will insist, that Ethnologue map is the closest to reality, of what I have seen so far. Kurds really live in Nakhidchevan region. The only problem is the real presence of Kurdish and Armenian in Karabakh region, but we won’t have reliable sources on the linguistic situation in the region for several years yet. Smpad (留言) 15:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

And for Iranian Azarbaijan I propose the map from Britannica — [3]. Smpad (留言) 15:12, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Certainly, you can insist, but it doesn't change the reality. This isn't a map of Azerbaijanis; it's a map of the Azerbaijani language. The fact that Lezgins, Tats, Talyshes, and Avars (I am an Avar myself) also speak Azerbaijani doesn't change the reality. If you believe the Ethnologue map is accurate, it's clear that you're not familiar with the realities in Azerbaijan (do you genuinely believe that the majority of people in Ordubad and Julfa speak Kurdish?). The Britannica map is also too broad and lacks detail. Moreover, Britannica isn't even considered a reliable source on English Wikipedia [4]. — Golden ^talk 15:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, you see, my reasoning is just this: we need to rely on Aliyev-independent third party sources. Yes, I sincerely believe in many things regarding Azerbaijan that you will reject as heresy: in Kurdish speaking eastern Nakhidchevan, in 1/4 of Republic of Azerbaijan being Turkified ethnically Talyshes and so on. But it doesn't matter. The thing is that official Azerbaijani statistics about ethnic groups in the country is completely unreliable and in reality anything of any unexpected degree can happen. It's like rely on China's official data on East Turkestan region. So we just need third party sources. I view Ethnologue and Britannica as such, but I will be glad if you can provide alternatives. And with regards to Iranian Talyshistan, I absolutely do not see any source for claiming this piece of the Caspian sea-perpendicular Azerbaijani shading. Smpad (留言) 15:56, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

And yes, Lezgins, Tats, Talyshes, Avars and others also speak Azerbaijani — that should be a light shading, and ethnic Azeri Turks speaking Azeri Turkish — dark shading. Because for Talyshes, Avars and others Azeri Turkish is the second, not native language. Azeri Turks of Iran also speak Persian, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be shaded as Turkish speakers :) Smpad (留言) 16:05, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

The city of Astara in Iran is Azerbaijani-speaking. See this detailed reliable source. I'm not relying on Azeri official sources. — Golden ^talk 16:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Golden, sorry, I was very busy.
I can't open your link, although I tried many ways. I know about the Azerbaijani language in Astara (from Iranica). However, why is it displayed the way it is displayed, and not just a dot in place of the city? Smpad (留言) 08:32, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Because this is not intended to be a detailed map. It's designed to represent the general area where a language is spoken, rather than providing a dot-by-dot depiction. — Golden ^talk 17:31, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Golden, but in addition to Astara, another area (quite extensive compared to the city of Astara) is also painted over. We have no sources regarding that area that the Azerbaijani language dominates there. Smpad (留言) 23:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

We do. Please check out the link I added in my previous comment. Majority of settlements from Astara to Qoruq are Azerbaijani-speaking. — Golden ^talk 06:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Golden, unfortunately, your source does not open in any way for me. At all. Is it possible to view this map on another site? Smpad (留言) 21:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

You might consider using a VPN or archive.org. In the meantime, here's a screenshot from the website. The color blue represents Azerbaijani Turkic, red signifies Talysh, and yellow denotes Persian. — Golden ^talk 07:40, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Golden, thank you very much for the screenshot. In any case, even on it we do not see the pattern that is on the map. Smpad (留言) 13:13, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

You're right, the map doesn't extend far enough to the south in Astara area. However, I presume that's not your main concern. I want to reiterate my earlier point: this map isn't intended to be highly detailed. Its primary purpose is to depict the general region where Azerbaijani is spoken. To achieve this, some areas might be slightly exaggerated, as the emphasis is on illustrating the locations where Azerbaijani is used.

This conversation has been ongoing for nearly two months, during which I find myself repeating my points. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to continue in this manner. Therefore, I won't be responding further unless you have specific concerns that are within the purpose of this map. — Golden ^talk 13:36, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Golden, why is now southern Talyshistan completely painted in the dominant Azeri color? This is too huge an exaggeration (on the verge of fraud), which cannot be justified by anything (there are no such sources that would explicitly state that). The region is obviously dominantly Talysh-speaking (in general) according to all available relaible sources. At best, southern Talyshistan should be colored light blue. Smpad (留言) 23:19, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, is Azeri Turkic the dominant language in Gilan Province? Smpad (留言) 09:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Sorry guys, but I didn't read that wall of text of discussion. All I can say is that Izady is not reliable [5], but the Iran Atlas source is pretty decent and perhaps most importantly up to date. Here are some screenshots that shows the full text of the section, the data sources and a close shot of the map [6] [7] [8] [9] HistoryofIran (留言) 14:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

From the screenshot:

Over several centuries, Turkic has been expanding steadily southward into the original Talyshi-speaking areas along the coast and the adjacent mountain valleys (Stilo 2018). Turkic now dominates the northern districts of Gilan and the numbers of mother-tongue speakers of Turkic and Talyshi are equivalent.

— Golden ^talk 14:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Golden, okay, northern districts of Gilan. But why is almost all of Gilan painted over on the map? Smpad (留言) 15:39, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Not even half of Gilan is painted on the map. The blue area approximately spans from Astara to Qoruq. — Golden ^talk 15:50, 22 November 2023 (UTC)