File talk:Middle East (orthographic projection).svg

Whatever happened to the border between Eritrea and Ethiopia? It may not be official, but...what the heck, man?! Lockesdonkey (talk) 01:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

This neutral zone was settled some time ago. It should be removed. Lockesdonkey (talk) 01:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

This is nitpicky, but: Where's Kosovo? Lockesdonkey (talk) 01:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)The three preceding comments were moved from the file here by Griffinofwales (talk)

Revert

@NotAMonarchist: Why have you reverted my change? GPinkerton (留言) 05:29, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

American post-Bush definition

The vague modern American definition of Middle East which includes the Near East, North Africa, Central Asia, the Arab world, and Greater Iran should be left to other maps (see the options at: Category:Maps of the Middle East). This map should show the generally accepted definition, rather than the "post-9/11 countries that America has problems with" map. GPinkerton (留言) 08:00, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

There is no indication in the history that this map is based of a vague Americanism, or list countries the US has an issue with. It is also not unusually broad, most sources seem to use this or go even broader, arbitrary eg. Britannica, BBC, Al Jazeera, JPost, Arab News. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 09:29, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis:

1. the Britannica source does not support this claim. It says: Middle East, the lands around the southern and eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea, encompassing at least the Arabian Peninsula and, 'by some definitions, Iran, North Africa, and sometimes beyond. (emphasis added). This contradicts the claim most sources seem to use this or go even broader and suggests that Egypt is only included when all North Africa is. No mention is made of Turkey, Cyprus, or any part of Europe being part of the region, as the present unsourced map grandly shows.
2. I don't see any explicit definitions used in any of the sources mentioned, so it's not clear what citing them proves.
3. If there is a source which states explicitly that parts of Europe and the islands of the Mediterranean Sea are conventionally included in the Middle East, I should like to see them. If there is not, or if this represents a fringe viewpoint, then I suggest that this map should restrain itself to territories normally considered part of the geographic Middle East, as defined by the majority of reliable sources. GPinkerton (留言) 09:47, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: Feel free to create a new version, but please respect COM:OW which helps to keep the integrity of many articles on sister projects like Wikipedia. --Rsk6400 (留言) 09:32, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: There are plenty of versions of vaguer, more expansive definitions in Category:Maps of the Middle East. Where it appropriate to use such a definition, one of those files should be used instead, rather than having all images of maps of Middle East showing generalized catch-all definitions used by some as a synonym for "Islamic countries". European and African lands were added without discussion, and it is only by more expansive (and more recent ) definitions that Egypt is ever included. I have not seen any reliable source that claims either Cyprus or European Turkey is any part of the Middle East, which is conventionally defined as an Asian region. GPinkerton (留言) 09:47, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Britannica has a list of countries forming a "common definition" further down the page. Also not sure how you can claim this map catches all Islamic countries, that'd be way more expansive. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 11:07, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: not sure how you can claim this map catches all Islamic countries Where have I claimed any such thing? GPinkerton (留言) 14:39, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

"...one of those files should be used instead, rather than having all images of maps of Middle East showing generalized catch-all definitions used by some as a synonym for "Islamic countries"." Chipmunkdavis (留言) 17:03, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis:  ? As the file history proves, editors have tendency to increase the number of countries highlighted without discussion and without reference to sources but presumably relying on the instinct that Islamic or Muslim-majority countries must somehow be part of it. Past versions have extended to the Atlantic and to the edge of China. What definition is this supposed to illustrate? The map has again been reverted to a version including swathes of Europe, and is again a geographical self-contradiction. And whose decision was it to mark out the Turkish-occupied part of Cyprus but remove the borders of the internationally recognized state of Kosovo? GPinkerton (留言) 15:20, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Don't understand that question mark, you asked where you claimed something, I provided the quote, and now it is being claimed it again. If you're referring to a series of edits that happened in 2009, in the months following this article's creation, there was some churn, but it never covered everything Islamic. To the edge of China was the original definition of the word, China being the Far East. The adding and removal of Northern Cyprus and Kosovo is available in that history. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 00:02, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I see a version which covers everything between the Atlantic and China and that's not a definition anyone should use, although as I have said, it would include a majority of Islamic states. I argue that the state of this map as is is among the worst of all possibilities, including now three continents rather than the traditional one or two at most. GPinkerton (留言) 00:37, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Not sure why the continents are relevant, that's overlaying one arbitrary terminology on top of another arbitrary terminology. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 23:45, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: I'm not sure what you're describing as arbitrary: it surely can't be the continents, since their existence or position can hardly questioned. Are we not in agreement that the Middle East is an area of land rather than an expanse of water? GPinkerton (留言) 14:43, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, continent definitions are inherently vague and are as such questioned all the time. There are many perennial areas of dispute relating to them. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 14:47, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I can't agree with idea that continents are inherently vague, it is obvious where the land stops and the sea begins. What source says the Middle East has overseas territories in Europe? A claim that perennial disputes exist should be evidenced with something stating so, because this is an extraordinary claim. GPinkerton (留言) 16:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Land and sea indeed, land and land far less so. The continent article on en.wiki has information about various different models, and its edit history highlights examples of various perennial disputes. This book is an interesting one on the subject, and has quite a few chunks available in the google preview. Chipmunkdavis (留言) 06:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Definitions by reliable sources:

Here are some definitions from reliable sources. It is clear from these that the core of the Middle East by any definition is the one given by the 2020 edition of the Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names (the 6th ed.), with the most commonly-mentioned limits of the region being Egypt, Turkey, and Iran. Some definitions exclude or include one or more of these countries, but these Asian countries' borders (whether inclusive or exclusive) typically mark the limits of the region. None of these definitions specifically includes any part of Europe or any islands. European Turkey (a part of Europe's Balkan Peninsula) and Cyprus are not included specifically by any of these definitions, and are implicitly excluded by several of them.

An undefined area centred on the eastern Mediterranean which is sometimes said to include lands as far west as Morocco and as far east as Pakistan. The eastern portion of these lands is sometimes known as South-West Asia. The term is generally accepted, however, as comprising Iraq, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and the Arabian Peninsula.
Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names (6th ed.)

And

*Middle East: The Middle East is the area around the eastern Mediterranean that includes Iran and all the countries in Asia to the west and south-west of Iran.
Middle East in British English

1. (loosely) the area around the E Mediterranean, esp Israel and the Arab countries from Turkey to North Africa and eastwards to Iran
2. (formerly) the area extending from the Tigris and Euphrates to Myanmar
   

and

• in British English (Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers)

The Middle East is the area around the eastern Mediterranean that includes Iran and all the countries in Asia that are to the west and south-west of Iran.

and

• in American English (Webster’s New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition. Copyright © 2010)

1. those regions between the Far East & the Near East: rarely used since WWII
2. area from Afghanistan to Libya, including Arabia, Cyprus, & Asiatic Turkey

Collins Dictionary

And

the area from the eastern Mediterranean to Iran, including Syria, Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Iraq, and sometimes also Egypt
Cambridge Dictionary

And

An extensive area of south-west Asia and northern Africa, now esp. the area extending from Egypt to Iran. Also (esp. in early use): India and adjacent countries; an area perceived as lying between the Near East and the Far East.
Oxford English Dictionary

And

The region of the world comprising Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, and the states of the Fertile Crescent (Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and Iraq) is known as “the Middle East.” The Middle East is also frequently said to include the Arab states of North Africa, as well as Turkey and Iran.
The Oxford Companion to International Relations

And

The region of the world comprising Egypt, the Arabian Peninsula, and the states of the Fertile Crescent (Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, and Iraq) is known as the Middle East. It is also frequently said to include the Arab states of North Africa, as well as Turkey and Iran.
The Oxford Companion to Politics of the World (2 ed.)

And

By any measure, the Middle East and, in particular, the core area of the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, Jordan, Palestine, Syria, and Israel (Figures 1–3), is the major world region with the greatest actual and potential water deficiency.
Encyclopedia of Global Change

And

The Middle East includes Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt, Palestine/Israel, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Qatar, Oman, United Arab Emirates, Syria, and Lebanon.
Oxford Dictionary of Islam

And

A subcontinental region including parts of Southwest Asia and North Africa. There is no agreement on the boundaries of the region, nor which countries lie within it. A narrow definition, for example, in the CIA World Factbook, does not include parts of Africa, Central Asia, or Pakistan, although it does add Armenia and Georgia. The broadest definitions include Cyprus, Egypt, and Central Asian states bordering China. By common agreement, the Middle East does include the countries of the Arabian Peninsula and the eastern Mediterranean region, notably Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq. Iran and Turkey are also generally classified as part of the region.
A Dictionary of Human Geography

And

the countries of southwestern Asia and northern Africa —usually considered to include the countries extending from Libya on the west to Afghanistan on the east
Merriam-Webster Dictionary

From these definitions, it is clear to me that the Middle East always includes Arabia and Iran, only sometimes extends to neighbouring parts of Asia and Africa (e.g. Egypt), and only by the vaguest, most unhelpful, and most recent political definitions is extended beyond the Sinai or the Taurus Mountains. There does no seem to be any justification for including Cyprus or any part of Europe within the geographic extent of the region, other than that since the 20th century parts of both have been politically part of the Republic of Turkey. GPinkerton (留言) 10:41, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I also have my doubts about the inclusion of Cyprus and other problems. But, sorry for repeating myself, we have to follow COM:OW. The editors of the various wikis have to decide on the extent of the region by their local consensus, and changes made here don't show up on their watchlists. And then we have the problem of articles including Cyprus or Egypt or the whole of Turkey in the text, with a map excluding those areas. --Rsk6400 (留言) 18:27, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: If the dire state of the English Wikipedia article is anything to go on, the content of those articles is in constant, uncited, flux, and the use of a reliably sourced map might be an improvement. GPinkerton (留言) 15:23, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I think the best solution would be to create a new map, call it something like "Middle East restricted def (orthographic projection).svg", and then edit the article on EN accordingly. That solution would respect COM:OW, allow the editors of EN to have their say and address your concerns. --Rsk6400 (留言) 16:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC)