Category talk:Burgher arms

SEE also: Category:Patrician families of Europe and Category:Coats of arms of patrician families of Europe

please explain Category:Burgher arms

Can you provide this cat with scientific sources and explanation? Thank you--Carolus (talk) 16:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the article on the English wikipedia? The concept is well explained there. --Brookford (talk) 16:08, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes i did, and actualy, it is just the same as a patrician family. However, this term is rarely used in Europe and history, Patriciaat is better and more in use. So let's change this.--Carolus (talk) 16:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Burger is indeed equivalent to patrician and to bourgeois. I would certainly not use the dutch patriciaat to rename the article or this category. Bourgeois is the most common usage in English as mentioned in this article. However, I believe burgher is appropriate. If you want to rename the article why don't you make a proposal to en:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology --Brookford (talk) 16:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No i will fix it, don't worry, you suggestion is noted. Because i cannot edit en Wiki, this is not an option. sorry.--Carolus (talk) 16:20, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Please do not rename this category. It fits with the English name of the article and it satisfactory the way it is. --Brookford (talk) 16:22, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It is wrong anyway, it should be " Coat of Arms of Persian/American/british/... Burgher families", burger armes does not mean anything in this form. can do better.--Carolus (talk) 16:24, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Then let us discuss a better naming here first before making any changes. --Brookford (talk) 16:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Patrician arms and Bourgeois arms would work for me (not patriciaat), and the we can create sub categories per country.--Brookford (talk) 16:27, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

OK, i am listening, can you please provide a good definition of Bourgeois families vs Patrican families? I think these are 2 different type.--Carolus (talk) 16:30, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It is true that they are not 100% the same, but the basic definition for both is "families whose members were initially the only people allowed to exercise many political functions". Patrician is usually synonymous with the "upper bourgeoisie". --Brookford (talk) 16:33, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The bourgeoisie is "a legally defined class of the Middle Ages to the end of the Ancien Régime (Old Regime) in French speaking Europe, that of inhabitants' having the rights of citizenship and political rights in a city (comparable to the German term Bürgertum and Bürger; see also "Burgher")" taken from en:Bourgeoisie --Brookford (talk) 16:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

So, what is the difference between a french Bourgeois family and a french Patrician family?--Carolus (talk) 16:40, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

In French, patrician is not used as much. Bourgeois is much more common. A bourgeois of Geneva or Brussels can be considered equivalent to a patrician from Venice or Basel--Brookford (talk) 16:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Btw my vote would be for patrician so that it can be used more broadly. Such as the United States where bourgeois does not have the same definition. --Brookford (talk) 16:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Edit: I have made a renaming proposal to en:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology--Brookford (talk) 16:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

c'mon, you do not respond my question, i do not ask the frequency of use, i ask for the difference. Unless you cannot provide this, there is no use in creating a bourgeois catergory on European level. And you just ignored my request, great respect, thanks. I have a history, there, and now this discussion wil be polarized. Not good. --Carolus (talk) 16:51, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You did not make such a request, you only said you could not contribute there yourself. I am sorry if this creates a bad situation for you but the project deserves to have a voice on this. --Brookford (talk) 16:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
The difference between the two is not always very clear since they are used in different regions and sometimes have different meanings. For example patrician was a legally defined class in Venice but in the United States it is used to describe a politically or otherwise powerful and wealthy family. I believe they can be used interchangeably, especially in a commons category. We can leave the fine differences to their respective articles. --Brookford (talk) 16:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I see, unfortunately for you...this is not how a scientific encyclopedie works: it is A or B, and not sometime A or sometimes B, you cannot say "sometimes a bird" and "sometimes a reptile", agree?--Carolus (talk) 17:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Fortunately for everyone, that is not what I am saying and if you had a little good faith you would realise this. Let me simplify this for you: they are equivalent social classes. Things can be equivalent but not 100% equal. --Brookford (talk) 17:08, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, since you have just created a category for coats of arms of patrician families, why don't we move everything there. It will all be simpler. I will then make a request for deletion and connect the new cat to the burgher arms article...--Brookford (talk) 17:31, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

How many social classes are there in Feudal Europe?

1. Nobilty
2. Ecclesiatical
3. Al the rest.
   1. Patrician families (or Bourgeois/burgher depending on location)--Brookford (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
   2. Paysant, ...
   3. City inhabitants --Brookford (talk) 17:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

(If i remember wel)--Carolus (talk) 17:11, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You are correct in naming the three estates. However why must we limit ourselves to feudal Europe?--Brookford (talk) 17:17, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Because everything before the French Revolution was Feudal. This was the historical Point of social Change in European society. In Flanders Bourgeois is considered to be the establishment of the 19th century? SO my conculsion: Patrician families did exist before the FR, bourgeois families date from later period. unfortunately, i do not have acces to sources, at this moment. --Carolus (talk) 17:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

• My (personal) conclussion:

Active before FR = Noble or Patrician
Active after FR = Noble or Bourgeois

You are completely wrong. The bourgeoisie was abolished (as a legal social class) after the revolution in Paris, Brussels, and Geneva for example. However, this conversation is pointless since we can simply use a category called coats of arms of patrician families. --Brookford (talk) 17:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

See: en:Bourgeois of Paris, en:Bourgeois of Brussels and en:Bourgeoisie of Geneva --Brookford (talk) 18:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

First read this, nothing abolished.--Carolus (talk) 18:02, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You are referring to the sociologically defined social class like Karl Marx. VERY different from the legally defined class from feudal europe. You are very confused. --Brookford (talk) 18:05, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No, you are confused: I understand your point, you translate it wrong: you see Bourgeois=poorter. That is not my point, because poorters weren't all members of the PAtricaat. --Carolus (talk) 18:02, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes poorter is the dutch translation, not the English one. We are not talking about the Netherlands but Europe (or the world) as a whole. --Brookford (talk) 18:08, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I am talking about the social class, ok if your want you can create Category:European family with city rights?

The point = City Rights like Poorterschap

Ok, now we are almost on the same page, you want to create Category:European family with city rights? Given the fact that bourgeoisie has other issues, that mean other aspects. ANyway, i do not see "Burger" covering the whole point of your vision. --Carolus (talk) 18:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes it seems a lot was lost in translation... As I said before we can simply put it in the patrician category you created and delete this burgher category. --Brookford (talk) 18:15, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't mean it is good to stimulate discussion, let's see if someone else has a point?--Carolus (talk) 18:48, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Quite right, let's. --Brookford (talk) 18:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I did some cleaning: created new Category:Noble families of Europe and Category:Patrician families of Europe See:Category:Families of Europe, the hierarchy is respected now. --Carolus (talk) 16:56, 2 May 2020 (UTC)