File talk:Einsatzgruppen murder Jews in Ivanhorod, Ukraine, 1942.jpg

  Can we discuss the probability of a Propaganda-manipulation here?

100% and it's actually pretty obvious, since the manipulation is done very sloppily. --165.165.64.152 13:11, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

At http://www.ullsteinbild.de/, Image number 00015667 it sais: "The picture apparently shows the execution of a mother who protectively holds her baby in her arms. No details about the the place or time of the photograph are known - presumably 1944"

At the Bildarchiv Preußischer Kulturbesitz (http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/?LANGUAGE=DE_DE), Bildnummer 30011071 it sais "Shooter is a member of the German Wehrmacht in 1942. Note: All above information is not detected and taken from older literature. The possibility of image manipulation for propaganda purposes is not excluded. Every publication of the photo has to be pointed to that fact! Recording Date: 1942 (?) " --193.7.250.35 16:02, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, It is a valid concern, especially since not much is known about this photograph (that I can find). My understanding is that the original print is somewhere in Polish Archives but I do not know if it was inspected forensically. It seems like most institutions treat it as genuine, and I assume it is so, but it is hard to prove or disprove allegations of manipulation. It would be good to have some more facts. --Jarekt (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Especially since the "Bildarchive" picture is a different one, probably edited out of the wiki version at hand: http://bpkgate.picturemaxx.com/preview.php?WGSESSID=1ef6ecd764d6a4a1c85aa716ffe356bd&UURL=eab67867bb4f78122ea102a869b80324&IMGID=30011071 --154.69.55.79 13:22, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Comment by IP

"The photo, however, depicts Russian troops with Mosin-Nagant 91-30 rifles. It could very well be a documentation of Stalin's purge of Russian peasants. If fact, the troops could be Russian jews (Jewish Action) executing non-Jewish peasants for late mortgage payments." Moved here by --Jarekt (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Bildmanipulation oder feldeutung der gesehnisse !

Das Bild wurde zur propaganda schwecken ungedeutet ! http://www.geo.de/GEO/info/newsletter/abo/64290.html

Das Gewehr ist nicht für naheinsatz geeignet , ebenso der schußwinkel an sich past nicht zum angeblichen tatbestand ( historische deutung ) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/K98

Comment by IP

Following this picture Description the picture must be a staged or faked product of the Polish resistance for propaganda purposes:

"The photo was mailed from the Eastern Front to Germany and intercepted at a Warsaw post office by a member of the Polish resistance collecting documentation on Nazi war crimes."

For mailing a photo in 1942 first the film must be developed and then the paper copy must be blown up and developped in a photo lab. The Einsatzgruppen surely did not have complete photo labs in deployment.

"The original German inscription on the back of the photograph reads, "Ukraine 1942, Jewish Action [operation], Ivangorod.""

No SS soldier would write in 1942 "Jewish Action" or "Jewish operation". Only Polish fakers would write that. All non-German (foreign) words were forbidden to SS-soldiers. He would write in "pure" German "Einsatz gegen Juden". An SS-soldier also would never use the Russian name of the city "Ivangorod". He only would use the German city name "Johannstadt"

So this picture is 100% staged and faked by the Polish resistance. The claim that it was "intercepted at a Warsaw post office" is a nonsense legend to produce some credibility for the fake, cause the SS never used civilian postal services but strictly only the German military postal service "Feldpost", which surely did not use the Warsaw post office.

Even if the legend was true, then it should have been in an envelope with sender and recipient. But neither that envelope was ever shown nor the names of sender and recipient were ever published.

That's complete garbage. On the reverse, the photograph is inscribed: "Ukraine 1942 - Judenaktion in Iwangorod" (English: Ukraine 1942 - Jewish operation in Ivanhorod). Check out some online references before soapboxing. Poeticbent talk 21:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the chain of custody of this image is not up to the standards that can be used in court; however you have to remember that this is a very famous image analyzed and debated for years, our description is based on many published descriptions (see references). However since it is such a controversial photograph we should probably reference where each piece of information come from. --Jarekt (talk) 21:04, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

hmmm ,,, I agree that the picture is famous ... but do you want to say that a famous picture may be a fake, because it is so famous? I propose to keep the picture, but change the Description into "Famous often printed probable propaganda fake of the Polish Resistance"

Nonsense. Poeticbent talk 21:32, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

What I was saying is that in case of famous WWII pictures, we are joining a discussion that been going on for 70 years. Current description represent consensus that previous generations reached (which we should document and cite better). On Commons we do not have en:Wikipedia:No original research policy like Wikipedia, but in case when many references say one thing and your original research is trying to contradict it; we will go with published sources. --Jarekt (talk) 02:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

That is a very strange argumentation. The Egyptian history is discussed since 4,000 years and still it is rewritten every day, because new evidences are found and old evidences turn out to be faked or misconceived every day. What you are saying is nothing but "I know the absolute truth and basta" ... There is never a "final truth" in history and there should be no final truth in WP; and that is why discussion should never stop.

In 1942 Ivangorod was a small town, which since 1941 was in the Kreisbezirk Narwa in the Reichskommissariat Ostland. The official language in the Reichskommissariat Ostland was German, that is why all town names on street signs, maps and documents were German. An SS-soldier in 1942 would never use the Russian name of the town "Ivangorod". He probably would not even have known that Russian name. He only would use the German town name "Johannstadt." But a Polish faker in 1942 probably would not know that.

It is also totally incredible that an resistance fighter who claims to intercept mails to "collect documentation on Nazi war crimes" keeps the photo, but throws away the envelope. Every resistance fighter knows, that the envelope makes at least 80% of the cogency of proof of the photo. If he does not present the envelope, then that means that this envelope never existed, because the picture was staged and faked by the resistance.

This photo is clearly a fake. The area around Ivangorod is very fertile and covered with forests. Large areas with grass or without higher vegetation until the horizon like in the photo don't exist around Ivangorod. Wherever this picture was taken, it was NOT near Ivangorod. The man with the rifle wears the uniform of the SS-cavalry which never operated near Estonia (Ivangorod is aside of Narva, Estonia). The Estonians had an own SS-unit with totally different uniforms conscribed of Estonian volunteers. The uniform jacket is at least 3 sizes too small for the man with the rifle. The man obviously wears a captured uniform which he only put on to stage the photo. The photo was obviously retouched: A black bar was painted across the eyes of the man with the rifle to make an identification impossible. The retouch is easy to recognize, because the bar goes BEYOND the face. For the same reason the photographer staged the photo so that all models turn their faces away. WernerBln (talk) 13:17, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

As a photographer I know this picture since I was a teenager and I always was convinced that it was staged. Six years before this picture was taken, the famous Robert Capa photo "Death of Loayalist Soldier" was the most-printed photo of the world [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Capa,_Death_of_a_Loyalist_Soldier.jpg ]. (After Capa's death it was proved, that this photo was staged, too). The similarities in style and composition are obvious for every photographer. I am sure that the Polish resistance fighter knew the Capa photo and staged a similar picture, cause he wanted it to be printed worldwide, too.

I have never said "I know the absolute truth". All I know about this image is what others wrote about it. If some "new evidences is found" and published in reputable source we will certainly include it in this description. We should also document better the information we are providing currently. --Jarekt (talk) 16:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Iwangorod

I would like to ask why so many people is so sure that this “Iwanogorod” at photo’s description could be only a city in the Reichskommissariat Ostland (now near the Russian-Estonian border)? As far as I know there are at least four villages at Ukraine named Iwanogorod => eg. look at those links to the pl.wiki [1] [2] [3] [4] (it’s in Polish but you can use a google map). In 1942 German Army controlled all of them.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 16:08, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess it would be good to check the references or find some more references to see what people concluded in the past. It there is not certainty which “Iwanogorod” it is than we should not say which one it is. I do not know how it is with “Iwanogorod”, but for many other city names there is one which is the one and all other cities that share the name have to differentiate themselves somehow. For example when you say "Dublin" you mean city in Ireland, but there are several dozen other "Dublins" around the world. There might be something like this with “Iwanogorod”. --Jarekt (talk) 13:55, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe someone could check all four villages in the Ukraine whether they are situated in a steppe like on the picture. To my knowledge nowhere in the Ukraine there is a steppe. That is why I guess that this is a black propaganda forgery produced by some NKVD fakers in some Russian steppe (степь), for instance in Kazakhstan. Especially since the "SS-soldier" in the much too small uniform on the picture does not look German to me at all, but rather like a man from the eastern Soviet Union.

This discussion page is dedicated to discussing improvements related to the content of the 'File' page. This discussion page is specifically _not_ for you to express what you believe and what you guess. You are welcome to point to proper, reliable sources related to the content. Lklundin (talk) 22:00, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Soldieruniform

As I understand it, the visible soldier is wearing an early form of Russian uniform and none of the soldiers are actually aiming at the woman - they are aiming at a distant target. — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 1.129.96.79 (talk) 02:55, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

No, the soldier is wearing a German uniform on this picture, Russian uniforms had 1 or 2 buttons on the collar and 3 buttons right below on the top third of the jacket/blouse as can be seen here, the soldier had to pull the blouse over his head if he wanted to change clothes. German uniform jackets had a continous line of buttons, soldiers just had to unbutton them if they wanted to take them off. Right above the soldiers belt, you can see 2 buttons of the button line, the other buttons are obscured by the shadows of his arm/body. The bag attached to his belt on his left side is a typical pouch meant to hold bread or small rations but actually used to hold single rifle rounds. His belt is packed with rifle cartridges (5 rounds each). Once they ran out of cartridges they would grab single rounds from the pouch to either reload the empty cartridges or to put single rounds in their rifles. GeeGee (talk) 20:12, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Englisch description

"Executions of Jews by German army mobile killing units (Einsatzgruppen) near Ivangorod Ukraine"

This description is inaccurate, as the Einsatzgruppen were established by using SS, SD (Sicherheitsdienst) and police units, exclusively. The 2 commanders were Otto Ohlendorf, commander of the interior security police at the RSHA, and Arthur Nebe, head of Germany's CID (criminal investigation department), which was also incorporated into the RSHA. Leading officers were hand-picked or confirmed by Himmler and Heydrich, the lower ranks were then filled up with personnel from the security police ("Sicherheitspolizei", consisting of a mix of Gestapo and criminal police units until 1939, later incorporated into the RSHA), from criminal police units and the SD ("Sicherheitsdienst", Security Service of the Reichsführer-SS, the Nazi intelligence organization) and from the Ordnungspolizei (uniformed police force in Germany), exlusively. When they started to operate behind the frontline in Poland (1939), the Einsatzgruppen were formally direct subordinates of the OKH (High Command of the German Army, not to be confused with OKW, the High command of the Wehrmacht), but the OKH's vague/imprecise mission orders (to fight all anti-German elements in Poland behind the frontline) gave the groups enough room to pick their own missions: to arrest or shoot Polish intellectuals, members of Poland's elite and Poland's Jews. In March 1941 the Einsatzgruppen were directly subordinated to Himmler, formally, but the authority to issue instructions to the groups (3 at the time, 4 later on, designated Einsatzgruppe "A" through "D") solely rested with Heydrich. The same month, the Wehrmacht acknowledged the groups' responsibility for administering a "special treatment to potential enemies" in the frontline's rear areas in a written statement (which was rated top secret). In practice, the initial separation of duties (between Wehrmacht military police and rear area security units and the Einsatzgruppen) laid down in the paper quickly disappeared during the early phase of Barbarossa, already, as the SS and SD established a second/parallel security body behind the front which demanded an increased share of responsibilty/jurisdiction. With the start of Operation Barbarossa, the groups employed local non-Russian nationalist civilians for translation duties but also as homeguard security units, these collaborating units also participated in some of the mass executions, eg. in Latvia and Lithuania. In 1941, and in contrast to the formal subordination to the OKH in Poland in 1939, the groups were now only subordinated to Wehrmacht AOK theaters logistically, means regarding resupplies, transport and accommodation. The Wehrmacht was responsible for the logistical support, only. That said, the Einsatzgruppen weren't mobile killing units of the German Army, but mobile killing units of the SS and SD. GeeGee (talk) 21:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)