File talk:Maghrebi wars map (2)-ar.jpg

Map Reliability

Hi @M.Bitton. Have you discussed and agreed on this map before with @شادي .

The first original map is exaggerated and compiled from various sources with different interpretations. The use of approximate maps in those articles involves mistranslations and selective inclusion of facts to favour one side over another. The territories cannot be depicted accurately since during that period, borders were not well-defined and varied based on the leadership of the tribes and the different loyalties and ways of governance among them. Therefore, there are no fixed borders at all, and the political borders nowadays differ from how they used to be in that era. Unless there is a clear, precise map from reliable sources that treats each war individually in a neutral manner, I see no reason to adopt those maps. Regards

Riad Salih (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

See this discussion شادي (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Riad Salih شادي (talk) 08:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Dude I really want to collaborate, in a nutshell I kept asking M.Bitton what wrong with my map and he refused to say anything, please say what wrong exactly and will fix it do not act like thay tagging should be the last thing to do I am still here and If anything Wrong I will modify the map شادي (talk) 08:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Riad Salih and please do not enter in a revert war till we discuss if you are right I will revert my edits. شادي (talk) 08:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

@Riad Salih tagging M.Bitton is a real issue I really do not want to open a sterile discussion with him when I gave him arguments he just supressed what I said using revert button. شادي (talk) 08:33, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

As the one who removed the tag of the previous version in english @Prosfilaes I ask you to intervene the map is well sourced (sources in thr english version) but they keep saying things like this without having intention to collaborate and correct thing togheter شادي (talk) 09:02, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Well I have to retell what I altready said:

So you argument is simple Riad and Bitton, this map is supposely original research, No it is not each border is justfied by sources and actual maps, from , instead of tagging, help us in creating accurate map, we must build instead of tagging> شادي (talk) 09:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

File:Maghrebi wars map (2).jpg The Well-sourced english version شادي (talk) 09:29, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

In a nutsheel if anyone doubt the accuracy of the map just read this:

En 1111 (1699-1700) Isma’ïl partagea les gouvernements de ses états entre ses fils et donna le commandement de la province de Taza à Zidan. Immédiatement, sur l’ordre de son père, Zidan se mit en campagne contre les Turcs tandis que le bey de Tunis, Mourad, envahissait la province de Constantine. Zidan parvint à chasser les Turcs de Tlemcen, il marcha sur Mascara dont le bey était en expédition. Il ravagea la contrée, saccagea la ville et pilla même le palais du bey. Mais, peut-être pour sauver son butin, il accepta de conclure la paix avec les Turcs et rentra au Maroc. Isma’ïl, furieux de la paix conclue, destitua son fils. D’ailleurs cette paix fut fatale au bey de Tunis et aux Marocains. Le dey d’Alger eut le temps d’aller écraser le premier dans la plaine des Abd-en-Nour entre Sétif et Constantine et de se retourner du côté de l’ouest. Mouley Isma’ïl avaitrepris la campagne à la place de son fils. En vain le sultan de Stamboul lui avait-il envoyé des lettres menaçantes; il passa la frontière et arriva rapidement dans la vallée du Chélif. Le dey, qui revenait victorieux de l’est de la régence et qui avait recruté sur sa route des foules d’indigènes, rencontra le sultan près de la Djidioua. «La bataille s’engagea le 20 du dzou-l qa’dah 1112 (28 avril 1701) à midi, et se termina à quatre heures par la déroute de Mouley Isma’ïl qui fut blessé et faillit tomber entre les mains du vainqueur. Trois mille têtes de soldats et cinquante de qaïds furentrapportées à Alger où la victoire fut fêtée pendant plusieurs jours.» Isma’ïl n’avait dû son salut qu’à la vitesse de son cheval et il avait laissé sa lance entre les mains de ses adversaires1. Le vieux sultan dut encore une fois abandonner provisoirement ses projets contre l’ennemi\

. Taroudant fut assiégée par Isma’ïl, mais sans succès, et le mois de ramadhan arrivant obligea les belligérants à conclure une trêve. Isma’ïl en profita pourrevenir surla HauteMoulouia soumettre quelques tribus, notamment les Beni Idrasen, émigrés du Fazaz4, et continuer son plan de fermer par des forteresses et des garnisons toutes les vallées, tous les chemins qui pouvaient amener l’ennemi de l’Est dans l’intérieur du Maroc. Il resta en observation dans cette haute vallée jusqu’en hiver pour donner aux ouvriers le temps de terminer les forts sans être inquiétés parles tribus. Pour assurer cette tranquillité il obligea les Beni Idrasen à lui donner leurs chevaux et leurs armes. Il leur donna en échange cinquante mille moutons dont la tribu s’engageait à vendre la laine chaque année au sultan et leur fit réintégrer leur territoire. Les autres tribus de la Haute-Moulouia durent également livrerleurs chevaux et leurs armes; Isma’ïl obtint ainsi la pacification définitive de la partie orientale du Djebel Deren5.

All this is well cited in L’établissement des dynasties des Chérifs au Maroc et leur rivalité avec les Turcs de la Régence d’Alger شادي (talk) 09:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The writter of this book based himself on Al-Istiqsa whivh I used to represent the borders of the Charifian state, definetely not compiling sources (whivh itself is not original research if well-done), just added other sources to better justify the map because others asked for actual maps. شادي (talk) 09:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

The description of a controversial map should include a clear indication of its sources (it doesn't). Disagreements over maps is usually resolved by having multiple maps, each of which makes clear what sources' view of the matter it represents. At most, if you disagree with someone else's map, tag it with {{Fact disputed}} an indicate what you think is wrong with it. - Jmabel ! talk 14:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This one is merely a translation of File:Maghrebi wars map (2).jpg, sources ARE there. شادي (talk) 15:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

___________________

• Then those sources should be listed here, too. - Jmabel ! talk 16:28, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Jmabel I hope everything is going well for you. Anyone can check the sources that are not directly pointing to conflicts and wars. The absence of maps in those articles for years is indeed due to various reasons. One of the main reasons is that the maps provided are often personal interpretations of territories by certain users, rather than being based on reliable and widely accepted sources. the user شادي, is consistently favoring their own perspective and possibly neglecting important historical facts.

  Origin of the map

  We can start by examining the original map, which was created by Fleettask who had only uploaded a single file. This user is blocked on both frwiki and enwiki due to their repeated POV-pushing in articles related to those conflicts. The last version was updated by Taki2006 a globally banned user.

  Sources

  • S1: https://cartotecadigital.icgc.cat/digital/collection/africa/id/507 It's a map made by the French during the occupation of North Africa, and there is no mention of any Maghrebi war. Furthermore, the French colonizers didn't have sufficient information about the territories and the tribes, which they struggled to understand. As a result, we can find various maps from different times and cartographies, as there is no fixed map.
  • S2 : Cour Auguste, « Chapitre X», L’établissement des dynasties des Chérifs au Maroc et leur rivalité avec les Turcs de la Régence d’Alger, Saint-Denis, Éditions Bouchène, « Histoire du Maghreb », 2004, p. 150-155. This is a paid book written by Auguste Cour (1866-1945) during French rule, we can check the pages from 150 to 155, no map is mentioned.
  • S3 : The links in this source do not work, “Istiqsa, page 80, check at link” . However, let's verify this source. Al-Istiqsa is an older Moroccan series of book by Ahmad ibn Khalid al-Nasiri (1835-1897), the work has at least 7 volumes, page 80 of which volume? Al-Istiqsa does not focus on the specific conflicts mentioned, and it is not widely regarded as a reliable source in contemporary historical research.
  • S4 : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k827439#, a voluminous book comprising 611 pages, authored by a French military officer during the era of French colonization with no precision of the page.
  • S5 : https://www.worldhistory.org/Timbuktu/, an article focused on TImbuktu a city in Mali.

  To conclude, a map created by a blocked user based on his own interpretation of cherry-picked sources, not specialized in these conflicts, and there is not a single map of the Maghrebi wars. Only personal interpretations derived from various primary sources with limited historical accuracy. and all these interpretations lack support from reliable secondary sources. Riad Salih (talk) 20:38, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

  @Riad Salih

  Well Finally you spoke and said something I could argue with, my respect.

  Well let's start

  • M.Bitton insisted that I should use actual maps so I did although I agree with the point you said and I prefer Arab sources (moroccan-ottoman or algerian)
  • Well my map is tbh what Auguste cour said and I mentionned it below Just read he said Tunis Eyalet took Control of territory to Constantine and Moulay Ismael reached Chelif Valley and this what I represented in my map step by step no personal interpretation here if you see something wrong help me correct it

  There was Still a little problem? Where I could get Charifian Sultanete border so I used Al Nasiri:

  Well I was quite a novice in Commons then, but well I based my self on Al-Istiqsa volume 9 but I got quite wrong the page

  but anyways I based my map on two page

  page 102

  which you can find easily

  The rest of the news of Moulay Ismail, may God have mercy on him, his exploits and his biography Al-Yafarni said in Al-Nuzha: The knowledge of the Commander of the Faithful, Ismail, may God have mercy on him

  In fighting his enemies until he subdued the entire Moroccan country and seized control of its plains and rugged areas. He seized the borders of Sudan (Mali was known as Soudan then) and extended them beyond the Nile (of course the Niger lake), and his state spread In its buildings, he reached what Al-Mansur Al-Saadi, did not reach To the east, to Biskra, from the land of Jarid and the area of ​​Tlemcen, and God knows best..

  You could Al-Ifrani, Al-Doaif to be more sure.

  And What you seem so selective in your arguments why haven't you mentionned other actual maps I used the one in Chiguit region is accurate because French have a foothold in Arguin and the other one is cotemporary and is in 1707 and he could not know the allegiance of the desert tribes so I used other arab accounts to draw borders there that is is.

  In a nutshell my map is based on Auguste Cour account+Al Nasiri+ with others maps as support.

  • The Timbuktu source was used by Omar toons and I wanted to check and add more reliable sources and improve Omar toons version but M.Bitton said to me to not touch others images and that Omar toons based his map on this source so I believed him.

  شادي (talk) 11:44, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Omar Toons is indeed a blocked user. When creating maps, our primary focus is on accuracy, and we depend on reliable sources or specific maps tailored to the context. Auguste Cour and his writings were produced during the French colonization period, and his understanding of the region's history was limited. There is currently no readily available accurate map of the Maghrebi Wars. It is unnecessary to assign colors to regions based solely on your personal interpretation. Regards Riad Salih (talk) 14:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  You made a good point right now, that what I concluded too, there is sadly no readily available accurate map, so let do arrows only? Like the image below (I will supress colors right now) since the borders of the regency of algiers are knowledgable. شادي (talk) 14:40, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Here you are I think this version I uploaded is good, Just arrows no colours no borders, If I transalte it to arabic can you remove the tag? شادي (talk) 14:57, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• @Riad Salih Understandable, tbh I do not want to enter in petty arguments about the extent of each state, so I remade my map zoomed on Algeria and now it is based 100% on Auguste Cour. شادي (talk) 12:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  

  new version

  شادي (talk) 12:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

  Please refrain from creating false maps. If there are no historical maps available, we will not include them. Historians have made it clear that it is impossible to create accurate maps for that period, and your map is therefore deemed fake with no genuine coordinates. Tlemcen is not located there, and there are no reliable sources supporting it. I have not come across any maps related to these wars, and I will state this in Arabic for better understanding. Furthermore, all users who insisted on creating false maps based on their own visions ended up blocked. We don't need to have maps for everything.

  _

  من الصعب وضع خريطة محددة للحدود السياسية والإدارية الثابتة لهذه الدول في العصر الوسيط، لأنها كانت تتمدد وتتقلص بناءً على الأحداث التاريخية والتغيرات السياسية والعروش والقبائل في تلك المناطق، وخصوصًا في العصور الوسطى. لا يمكن وضع وصف دقيق أو رسم خريطة لهذه الحدود بدون الاستشهاد بمصدر ثانوي موثوق يوضح الخريطة الخاصة بهذه النزاعات بالضبط. Riad Salih (talk) 09:53, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  لقد قمت بازالة جميع الحدود الجغرافية والإدارية ألم ترى ذلك؟ الخريطة ليس بها ولا حدود سياسية ولا إدارية؟

  + الصورة تعتمد على ما قاله أوغست كور ولا تدعي الصحة 100 بل هي مجرد نقل بسيط لما أورده أوغست كور وإن كنت تريد الطعن به فهذا مكانه نقاش المقالة لا هنا

  +يمكنك مساعدتي في تصحيح موقع تلمسان وسأكون شاكرا

  +سأكتب محتوى الرسالة بالإنجليزية لتفهم أكثر شادي (talk) 12:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I still wonder if you had really seen the map or now, you said we cannot know for sure admistrative borders of this period, I responded alright I supressed all borders and now there just cities and lakes in a blank background, DID YOU REALLY SEE THE MAP?

  Well, anyways, I will correct Tlemcen location, and the map now show just army movements by arrows according to Auguste Cour, you can think this is unreliable but that you POV and its place is in wikipidias talk not here.

  I do not want to push any POV here I want to create an accurate map because I need one in my article, and I will correct it with coordinates and it it do not show any political borders just cities and lakes. شادي (talk) 12:59, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  Unless you can provide a reliable source dedicated to the Maghreb wars with conflict maps, we will not use any maps. The discussion will remain here on Wikimedia Commons and will not be related to Wikipedia.

  The articles on this topic were created years ago, and no one could have added maps due to the complexity of the maps during those periods. The only available map on Commons was uploaded by a blocked user, and it appears that you are using it and modifying it arbitrarily. Riad Salih (talk) 21:18, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I will make my research, be sure, and the modifications I did are far from being arbitrarily, I am honest in my intention to create an accurate map, so I took in account all your observations.

  And thank you for pointing out that the user was a blocked user I did not know it and I thaught that he did his research accurately, now I will do my own and I will keep the photo in this stlyle arrows no political no admistrative borders only military movements. شادي (talk) 12:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)